Tandem Masters shooting own video?

[SkydiveMO 0]

The topic of tandem masters shooting their own videos and how it is done was raised in the Photography and Video forum.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=916687;

I would like to raise the question; is this safe and should it be allowed? I would think a tandem master shooting their own video would fit into the same category as static-line jumpmasters also piloting the jump aircraft (which is no longer allowed). It can be done, but should it? I know tandem masters who currently shoot their own video and are quite safe. However, I also can see the argument that added distractions for the instructor lowers the safety level for the student. I haven’t decided if tandem master video is a good idea or not, what do you think?

[riggerrob 558]

I think tandem masters shooting their own video is a good idea - provided they follow guidelines published by the Australian Parachute Federation: minimum 500 tandem jumps, briefing by DZ Safety Officer, etc.

Let's face it, skill varies widely and cannot be measured by jump numbers alone. Some TMs have extensive freefall photography experience before they ever strap on a student. As soon as saving the lives of their students becomes second nature, they can safely strap a camera on their left hand.
On the other hand, some TMs never quite "get it." They need every brain cell - and then some - just to keep themselves alive. Forget about allowing them to jump with any extra gadgets. Fortunately these people usually have the sense to quit before they make the (APF) minimum 500 tandem jumps.

There are also strength and currency issues.
The more arm muscle you have, then less you need your left arm for exits and the steadier you can hold the camera.
As for currency, during my first few dozen jumps every spring I am just trying to remember all the tricks I need to stay alive, but by the time I have made my 200th tandem of the year I am starting to get bored and am looking for a new challenge.
That's when I sew up a new camera mount.
Hee! Hee!

[nightjumps 1]

Well, I'm just coming up on a hundred tandems so its kinda like asking someone with a hundred jumps something about training.

My current opinion is; to me its worth the additonal fifty bucks to let someone else who's whole reason to exist on the skydive is to ensure good quality video and pics of that person's skydive and let me focus on the impotent shit.

I may have a different opinion after a thousand tandems... but, I am also a laggard when it comes to adding additional variables to a skydive.

I tend to treat those variables like new Microsoft applications or versions... I let everyone else test it first, find out the bugs, get several opinions about the product and then have someone demonstrate it for me before I buy off on it.

[AggieDave 6]

I've got about 250 tandems, my training has been the best around and I'm jumping the best gear available, so a lot of the variables are gone.

However.

There's no way in hell I'd even bother with shooting the video myself. Not now, not at any time I could see in the future.

For one, I think the student deserves the best quality they can get, and for me, that means the guy on the DZ with the most skill, with a top notch video and a top notch digital SLR (for instance Cannon D10) for stills. That does not mean some monkeyfucked contraption that I use to video the jump off my hand (sorry Rob, I know you make a version of the Handycam).

Also, I think about the times when things go wrong, I sure as hell wouldn't want something attatched to my hand while I'm trying to fix whatever had gone wrong. Specifically, I think about the side-spin I had, I sure as hell wouldn't have needed a camera on my hand after that fucknut student tried to kill the two of us.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jdthomas 0]

I have a good number of tandems now and I had my first cutaway on a tandem this past summer.
I don't see that I would need to add a camera into the mix of things going during the jump. especially during cutaway time!!!!
And hows that video footage coming out if you are doing your handle checks? is it really worth it? Not to me!

www.greenboxphotography.com

[lazyfrog 0]

the only ones I've seen doin it in my short skydiving life were australians form skydive interlaken (i think) which were jumping at our dropzone.
I feel it's strange, maybe because I never self portrayed myself in a jump...
but seen a funny vid with a passenger puking

----------
Fumer tue, péter pue
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ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579

[AndyMan 7]

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I think tandem masters shooting their own video is a good idea...

I REALLY think you should be qualifying this with your obvious conflict of interest.

For those who don't know, Rob is in the business of making and selling wrist-mount camera mounts, among other things.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[boxingrrl 0]

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And hows that video footage coming out if you are doing your handle checks?

And how's the footage if you do really need to fly that exit? The thing that is so cool about tandem videos is that they preserve a once in a lifetime experience. It sucks so bad when the video doesn't come out. That person will never have their first skydive again. Purely from a customer service perspective, I think you can give a better product, more reliably and safer by sticking to outside video.

[tombuch 0]

I think it's a very bad idea. A camera adds a distraction, and a potential line snag point. I suppose it can be done with just a little more risk by some of the best tandem instructors, most of the time, but there will always be unexpected jumps when it increases risk, and many instructors can't handle any increase in workload or distraction.

The only benefit to having a tandem instructor carry the camera is to save money by eliminating the camera flyer, or maximize profit by packing more tandems in an airplane. Those are crummy reasons to reduce the safety margins.

Our students deserve the safest possible flight with the lowest risks we can provide. There is never a good reason to increase risk beyond that required for a basic tandem.

For what it's worth, I have made about 1,000 tandems on the Strong, Racer, Vector, and Sigma rigs.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
S&TA
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[SkydiveMO 0]

Link to a hand-cam website...

http://members.westnet.com.au/onlineair/html/products/hand-cam.htm

[skygirl1 1]

One of my good friends is a tandem master.....he wears a small camera on his hand..........so the tandem passenger still gets video from a video man....but the master can get up close and personal shots under canopy of his student..........it is really cool...............the small camera on his wrist would not prevent him from cutting away...............

skygirl1

" Mean people SUCK!"

[lopullterri 0]

[Our students deserve the safest possible flight with the lowest risks we can provide. There is never a good reason to increase risk beyond that required for a basic tandem.] ***
I agree with you 100%. My husband and I discussed this issue. He has over 1400 Tandems, I have approx. 600 tandem videos. The student deserves an instructor that is devoting all of their attention to the tandem experience and a video person who is devoting all of their attention to a good and safe video. Its a bad idea for another reason. If one instructor does it, the rest of the instructors at that DZ feel compelled to do the same...even if they aren't very experienced with tandems. It could push people into doing something that they have no business doing.

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[tombuch 0]

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the small camera on his wrist would not prevent him from cutting away...............

So imagine a radical spinning malfunction that requires both hands to pull the cutaway handle, resulting in a horrible unstable spinning cutaway and reserve deployment. I'd rather not have extra junk on my hands to reduce my pull ability, distract my mind, or snag lines.

Those nasty spinners and hard pulls are rare, but they do happen. I've been there. I'd hate to be the first guy to catch that kind of fatality on video. That's just not very cool. Our students deserve better.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
S&TA
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[linestretch 0]

I wasn't jumping back in the "day", but I can imagine when just tandems started coming out, I'm sure there were people saying "what the fu__? Why the hell would you want to strap someone to the front of you, when just jumping is scarry enough!?". I was basicaly forced into doing handy. I didn't like it at first, and still really don't. BUT, it's not all that bad. And as long as we don't let just any ass do it, I think life will be just fine for everyone. I agree, it DOES NOT even come close to outside video, but it is a nice alternative. Another big issue is "can handycam and outside video co-exist at the same DZ"? It didn't where I'm at.

my pics & stuff!

[skydiver51 0]

If all tandem masters shouldn't do it and it isn't comparable to what a camera flyer takes then why take the added risk? I take tandem and aff video and from what I have observed on tandem jumps, the tandem master wouldn't get very much video at all when a camera will get the whole jump. Is it really worth the extra money to take the added risk??

[boxingrrl 0]

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I was basicaly forced into doing handy. I didn't like it at first, and still really don't.

This is one of my concerns. Qualified tandemmasters shouldn't have to add a camera to the skydive in order to work.

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And as long as we don't let just any ass do it, I think life will be just fine for everyone.

But, if given the choice between continuing gainful employment and having to move along, some less experienced tandemmasters, or those without the best judgement may decide to go with the handy. Forcing tandemmasters to do it pretty much guarantees that "any ass" is going to end up with a camera on their hand.

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Another big issue is "can handycam and outside video co-exist at the same DZ"? It didn't where I'm at.

By trying to save money and eliminating outside videographers from the work pool, these DZ's are also effectively eliminating potential AFF jumpmasters and future tandem masters. True, fewer staff means more $ for those left, but increased burn-out and decreased safety due to fatigue and distraction could be the fallout.

Ultimately, it's up to the individual to stay within their own limits and skydive accordingly. That doesn't make it right for DZO's to coerce staff into compromising their safety and the students' safety in order to increase profit.

[riggerrob 558]

So imagine a radical spinning malfunction that requires both hands to pull the cutaway handle, resulting in a horrible unstable spinning cutaway and reserve deployment. I'd rather not have extra junk on my hands to reduce my pull ability, distract my mind, or snag lines.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The better hand-mounts leave your palms and fingers free to pull handles.
They also mount the altimeter close to the lens .. so you need to invent a new excuse for pulling low.
Hee! Hee!

[linestretch 0]

all very good points. My situation is a little different in that where I work isn't your typical DZ. We do ONLY tandems, and fun jumpers, or anyone else for that matter isn't welcome. We cater mainly to Japanese tourist. My commitment here is 6 months, and to stay here and work, handycam was part of the deal. The video is actually better than most of you think, at least the ones who have never seen it, or have only seen shitty video. And what about the student who just can't afford a full blown video? This is a cheaper alternative.

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Ultimately, it's up to the individual to stay within their own limits and skydive accordingly. That doesn't make it right for DZO's to coerce staff into compromising their safety and the students' safety in order to increase profit

Lets hope that in our "self policing", that we don't let this happen, or at least, voice out opinions when we see something like this happen.

These stills were pulled off of a video. Now for those of you who have never seen it, what do you think?

Just a note, I started doing video LONG before I did tandems, and I'm not a big advocate of handy. I just some of you to see the other side before making a judgement.

my pics & stuff!

[nightjumps 1]

In looking at pictures 2 & 3 and your relation to the aircraft... I am at that point in my Tandem dive where;

If I have deployed the drogue, I'm looking over my shoulder to check for drogue inflation and doing my handles checks.

Where are you at this point in the dive? Have you already done that?

[skydiverek 55]

Looking at the first picture (opening), it looks like you unnecessairly present your left arm to the student, where she can grab it in stress and hold on to it, preventing you from using it should you need to...

[linestretch 0]

Neither pics have the drogue deployed. I don't pitch it until I'm either stable, or have the "window" of opportunity. I don't toss it right out the door. As for handle checks, you can still do them.

And as for me holding the camera in front on opening, yeah, my hand (mostly my upper arm) gets grabbed, but you just reach over with the other hand and start slapping or removing fingers. It's all in the training. And if they grab you, and you film it, then they get to see that they DID do it, because most don't remember anyway. I've also filmed 3 students with their hand completely around the reserve handle. That scares me the most. But I think good training, and then being heads up takes care of most of that. I guess the rest would be pure blind luck.

my pics & stuff!

[tombuch 0]

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Neither pics have the drogue deployed. I don't pitch it until I'm either stable, or have the "window" of opportunity. I don't toss it right out the door. As for handle checks, you can still do them.

And as for me holding the camera in front on opening, yeah, my hand (mostly my upper arm) gets grabbed.

You just convinced me that hand held camera work by a tandem instructor is beyond stupid. I didn't like the idea prior to reading this latest post, but now I'm convinced it is outright dangerous.

When working with real students the exit should be flown for stability, then the drogue should be deployed. Flying and reaching for a camera shot prior to drogue throw is nuts. It is at this point the the student is most scared and most likely to grab an arm, and you are in real jeopardy until that drogue has been thrown. Likewise, there is always the risk of a side spin until the drogue is out, so an odd body position coupled with delay adds significant risk.

I have made more than 1,000 tandems and have only had a student get quick access to my hand once. I never gave them the opportunity after that. Using the camera obviously increases the risk of an arm grab, and that alone is reason enough to reject the concept.

Sorry, I believe the students safety should always come first. The tandem alone presents plenty of risk, we don't need to be adding to that risk. The student deserves better.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
S&TA
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[nightjumps 1]

Thank you for the pictures and the response. I think I'll pass on the handycam.

[Jimbo 0]

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These stills were pulled off of a video. Now for those of you who have never seen it, what do you think?

Honestly, I don't like them. Video and stills from a separate video guy would look better, I think.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[linestretch 0]

It's understandable why you guys think it's bad news. I still really don't know how I feel about it. If I had a choice, I wouldn't do them. But if I say no, then I'm back to oregon to do nothing but sit in the rain, and make no $$$. So for right now, I'm ok with it. When I do have handy, I put a lot more extra time into training the students about the exit. Yeah, it's the scarriest part.

On the bright side, after doing 200+ handy's in 4 months, I'm pretty damn rock solid when I don't have handy.

my pics & stuff!