Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students

[agentsmith413 0]

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...Plus, I jump w/earplugs....

Another bad idea, but I'll let someone else explain it to him.

Huh? I dont understand why jumping with earplugs is a bad idea. I'm not saying you're wrong but please enlighten me on this. I've heard from and seen(including very experienced jumpers)many people recommend jumping with them particularly if you jump an open face helmet to protect your hearing.

Aside from an audible i don't know what you actually need to hear in skydving. In freefall you can't hear anything anyways and under canopy you shouldn't need to hear anything or anybody because you should have your head on a swivel in the first place. But i'm still a noob so any answers to why earplugs are bad would be appreciated.

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride!

[nigel99 144]

A slight hijack but I feel it is relevant. People are talking about helping students with learning the landing pattern.

We have an excellent tool available that I believe is grossly under-used in training AFF students - TANDEM.

Get students to do 2 tandems prior to AFF level one and actually spend time teaching canopy flight. Popsjumper recently supervised a student who did just this. Before AFF level 1 the student had actually practised landing a pattern, braked turns, full turns, flaring etc. Personally I think that what was taught was brilliant and added substantial value to the learning process. I wish to emphasize active engagement in teaching the tandem student though - ideally involving the AFF instructor as was the case with Popsjumper.

No device dependency or failure and one to one coaching from an instructor, beyond cost I don't see a downside.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[DaVinciflies 0]

See my answer up-thread.

Let's say you're under canopy on your Pilot 210 and someone on a sub-100 cross-braced canopy flies over the top of you and starts spiraling (I know it shouldn't happen, but things that shouldn't happen often do). What are you going to do?

It is unlikely that you are going to be maneuverable enough to be able to get out of the way. That leaves you with the option of screaming your lungs out and hoping they hear you.

Would you want that person to be wearing ear plugs?

We really can't be too careful about avoiding canopy collisions, IMO.

[sacex250 0]

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See my answer up-thread.

Let's say you're under canopy on your Pilot 210 and someone on a sub-100 cross-braced canopy flies over the top of you and starts spiraling (I know it shouldn't happen, but things that shouldn't happen often do). What are you going to do?

It is unlikely that you are going to be maneuverable enough to be able to get out of the way. That leaves you with the option of screaming your lungs out and hoping they hear you.

Would you want that person to be wearing ear plugs?

We really can't be too careful about avoiding canopy collisions, IMO.

Would you rather he be deaf? Not using ear protection around, in, or while jumping out of an airplane is going to cause hearing damage.

Perhaps you should start wearing a whistle like paragliders do for traffic avoidance. Oh no, that wouldn't be cool; you'd be laughed off the DZ!

Well, so much for, "We really can't be too careful about avoiding canopy collisions, IMO."

It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

[bart 0]

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You make it sound like you're DZ has something special going on that allows your students to progress better than students on radio at other DZ's.

Maybe we do Chuck, escpecially if you with all your experience can't imagine how we make it work

[chuckakers 370]

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You make it sound like you're DZ has something special going on that allows your students to progress better than students on radio at other DZ's.

Maybe we do Chuck, escpecially if you with all your experience can't imagine how we make it work

Oh I understand how you make it work. You make it work the same way we did before we had those handy little radios. I just believe you could make it work even better - and safer - with the ability to communicate to students under canopy.

BTW, you never answered my question about your national federation. Do they really advocate NOT using radios because - as you put it - "if the radio fails the student needs to be able to land themselves anyway"?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Divalent 89]

I'm jumping back in here because I want to clarify that my previoius post was not intended as questioning the usefulness of audibles (even though from my perspective I don't see the advantage).

I was interested in knowing when (if ever) you take them off the audible, so that I could better see how they were integrated into the training period. IOW, are they used only as long as radios would normally be used and then removed (i.e., through AFF level 7, unless the student had particular issues that justified continuing into their solo status)? Or do you mandate their use until getting their A license? Or is it optional according to the student's choice, with a DZ recommendation one way or the other?

(I don't have an opinion one why or another whether any of these options are inherently good or bad, just want to clarify how they are used.)

[agentsmith413 0]

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See my answer up-thread.

Let's say you're under canopy on your Pilot 210 and someone on a sub-100 cross-braced canopy flies over the top of you and starts spiraling (I know it shouldn't happen, but things that shouldn't happen often do). What are you going to do?

It is unlikely that you are going to be maneuverable enough to be able to get out of the way. That leaves you with the option of screaming your lungs out and hoping they hear you.

Would you want that person to be wearing ear plugs?

We really can't be too careful about avoiding canopy collisions, IMO.

I understand what you're saying but i don't think earplugs are really going to make that much of a difference at that point. Odds are they're going to realize their mistake and fix their problem or it's going to be too late anyways. I don't think me screaming is going to make much of a difference whether or not they have ear plugs. That's also under the assumption that i see them in the first place. If they're above me while i'm under my larger canopy, it's gonna be quite difficult for me to see them in the first place depending on how high they're above me and where they're above me. Again, i know I'm still a noob and have tons to learn but i don't feel your point has much relevance here.

I'm still open to the possibility that they could cause problems but in your example i just can't see how not having them in would really make much of a difference. Then again i could very well be wrong.

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride!

[angryelf 0]

At risk of adding more fuel to this blaze...

My first jumps were on 360sq ft canopies with zero radio input, a giant wrist mount military altimeter that spun on your wrist and no audible. My class mates and I had a 45 min canopy flight class prior to our first jump. Out of 23 students, everyone figured out how to fly the pattern and do a flared landing with in the first 3 jumps. The one guy who did a down wind landing with no flare became one of our best canopy pilots-sometimes the best lessons come from a mouthful of dirt and some scrapes. That school continues to turn out jumpers with minimal canopy related problems (most of their injuries have been from instructors jumping smaller canopies).
Since then- I've landed a few AFF students on radio (with mixed success)
-witnessed multiple Cat A AFF's do an emergency bailout at 5,000ft and have standup landings 2mi from the DZ with no radio assistance
-and personally jumped/coached/taught to pack a gentleman who showed up at our DZ with 135 BASE jumps and and one tandem b/c 4 DZ's had turned him away b/c he was deaf and "unable to be talked down on radio".
Sometimes radios fail, sometimes instructors time the flare wrong and sometimes students choose to not listen to the radio.

All of this boils down to these points:

GOOD TRAINING is the most important step in safely landing a student. Picking appropriate SIZE/TYPE student canopies, keeping students ON THE GROUND when the weather is marginal are also critical.
Based on what I've read and seen personally-most students get hurt under canopy when the weather conditions are clearly volatile or a series of events through the whole skydive leads to them wadding in.
Skydiving is dangerous. Regardless of how much safety, rules, etc we throw at students-they will continue to get hurt. At the end of the day, the decision to leave the plane is theirs and they are responsible for the consequences. As instructors we are responsible to make the jump experience as safe and as educational as possible.

I don't think adding audibles or multiple altimeters to the mix are a good idea for a lot of reasons:

-An audible is a distraction. It is another piece of gear that the student and his/her instructors have to account for, turn on, etc. That means it will add more confusion if the student is rushing to get on the plane, get all his/her gear to the mockup, is listening for a beep on climb up instead of taking seat belt off at 1000', etc.

-An audible introduced to a student will inevitably lead to dependance. The student will grow accustomed to having it and will A)Buy one ASAP (spending money for something unnecessary that could be better spent on more jumps), B) Be incredibly scared/uncomfortable, etc the first time he/she has to jump without it and C)requires batteries. When it fails-the student will spend time processing why he/she did not hear a beep when he/she thought he/she should have-which could be bad.

-Audibles are pricey. Now the DZ has yet another expense that requires batteries and is sized perfectly to walk off. My DZ can't keep track of 10 wrist mount Altimeters. How the hell are we going to keep track of 10 even smaller pieces of gear?

-Audibles have their place. I jump one for freefly, when I'm Instructing and when I'm flying camera. But-I am comfortable doing any type of jump without the device b/c I never learned to rely on it. An audible is a tool like a hook knife: it deserves a place in skydiving, but adds a lot for a student to think about.

I think it is cool that you guys Down Under are trying new things. But I really have my doubts that the the devices are changing student progression. Could it be that your students are learning canopy control faster b/c they get more canopy flight instruction due to extra time spent training on the use of the audible?

I like the radio when it works. But it has limitations, too. BOTTOM LINE: Teach the student to fly the canopy-have a plan to assist. At some point you have to decide whether or not the student has been A)properly trained (be honest), B) understood what he was taught and C)has any business doing AFF in the first place. Tandems exist for a reason...

-Harry

"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

[shattenjager 0]

I used my new VISO2 on my canopy control school, it was my 32 jump, I wasn't sure how it would have felt, well, I just loved it! Also during canopy flight was very useful and precise, with a glimpse I was able to see my altitude, the analog below 1000 ft is not easy to read.
That also helped me to be visual aware of my altitude, comparing the size of the ground objects and link them to what I see on my alti, now I can better understand how high I am without looking the instrument.
For the audible under canopy I found it very useful, I know where I am without moving my eyes from the pattern and that keeps more focused on scanning for canopies than read the altitude.
But what works for me doesn't mean it works for you, we are all different, so I think instructors should talk to their students to understand how comfortable they feel on landing, etc. There are excellent students born to fly, others are just less gifted, like in any activities, I don't like rules, but I am a super safe/conservative athlete, I know when I'm ready to progress and when I'm not, that's why I'm still alive. But again, not everybody has the same level of awareness.
I think that the audible is a good backup and learning tool.
I have only 37 jumps and yet sometime I forget how I felt when I was a student, go figure when you have hundreds or thousand jumps! I needed more freefall training, but I was good under canopy, some friend of mine where born freeflyers but they better fly a paraglider! :-) We are ALL DIFFERENT! That to me is a very important thing to remember!

The mind is like a parachute: If you don't open it, it doesn't work.

[popsjumper 2]

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OK, I guess you don't have anything else better to do. I'll let someone else school you on hearing loss.

*whoosh* Another good example of you don't know what you don't know.

Dude, you've already got a wonderful jump-start on 100-jump wonder. Go for it!

To Chuck:
No, Chuck...I'm not going to be the one to explain anything to him. He doesn't listen anyway and I'll not waste my breath on him anymore. Let the guys at his DZ do it....maybe they'll get through. Let's just hope he doesn't take up HP canopies and/or swooping.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Would you rather he be deaf? Not using ear protection around, in, or while jumping out of an airplane is going to cause hearing damage.

Davinci explained it to you very nicely and aptly but *sigh* You missed the point entirely.

But, to answer your misdirection...
Hmmmmm....deaf....dead....deaf....dead....
Hey! I'll take deaf for $100 Alex!

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Perhaps you should start wearing a whistle like paragliders do for traffic avoidance. Oh no, that wouldn't be cool; you'd be laughed off the DZ!

This sounds like an immature response to a deadly question.

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Well, so much for, "We really can't be too careful about avoiding canopy collisions, IMO."

Do you recognize the irony? Earplugs...collisions...

I notice that you have a blank profile. It doesn't take much to discern relative experience.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[BobMoore 0]

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Would you rather he be deaf? Not using ear protection around, in, or while jumping out of an airplane is going to cause hearing damage.

Davinci explained it to you very nicely and aptly but *sigh* You missed the point entirely.

But, to answer your misdirection...
Hmmmmm....deaf....dead....deaf....dead....
Hey! I'll take deaf for $100 Alex!

Maybe we should do a little survey of all the old-timers here. You know, just for the education of the newbies. How many of you skydivers who have been jumping for greater than 20 years can't hear any more? How many hear just fine? How many actually listen to skydivers who have been around a lot longer than you?

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[Liemberg 0]

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How many of you skydivers who have been jumping for greater than 20 years can't hear any more? How many hear just fine? How many actually listen to skydivers who have been around a lot longer than you?

Ah, the irony!

The young whippersnappers jumping slightly undersized canopies 'with good penetration', wearing full face helmets with earplugs, two audibles inside and a GoPro glued onto the top, recording every jump they make for future reference and immediate youtube publication, well protected against all the eventualities of skydiving and fearing to become deaf like the rest of us in twenty years time, while in fact from the get go THEY are the ones with serious hearing problems.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[airtwardo 6]

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Would you rather he be deaf? Not using ear protection around, in, or while jumping out of an airplane is going to cause hearing damage.

Davinci explained it to you very nicely and aptly but *sigh* You missed the point entirely.

But, to answer your misdirection...
Hmmmmm....deaf....dead....deaf....dead....
Hey! I'll take deaf for $100 Alex!

Maybe we should do a little survey of all the old-timers here. You know, just for the education of the newbies. How many of you skydivers who have been jumping for greater than 20 years can't hear any more? How many hear just fine? How many actually listen to skydivers who have been around a lot longer than you?

I don't wear them and never have Skydiving, get my hearing checked every other year and it's way above the norm for my age.

I don't listen to music loud and never have, when I worked in a machine shop I always wore ear protection, same when I go shooting.

I'm not an ear doc but I did ask mine, She said it's not only the level of noise but the long term exposure that does the damage. I think the 10 minute an hour slight rise in Db, while I'm wearing a tight helmet really has little overall negative effect on my hearing.

My wife on the other hand... sitting in jet cockpits 8 hours a day for 30 years HAS had quite an effect. She will probably be wearing hearing aids in the years to come.



So...35 years of jumping with no ear plugs hasn't hurt me any, being able to HEAR under canopy has helped me out more times than I can count.

Oh, and I DO wear a whistle on night jumps, a VERY loud one.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Oh, and I DO wear a whistle on night jumps, a VERY loud one.

That's a terrible idea - VERY loud whistles have been shown to cause hearing loss.

[agentsmith413 0]

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OK, I guess you don't have anything else better to do. I'll let someone else school you on hearing loss.

*whoosh* Another good example of you don't know what you don't know.

Dude, you've already got a wonderful jump-start on 100-jump wonder. Go for it!

To Chuck:
No, Chuck...I'm not going to be the one to explain anything to him. He doesn't listen anyway and I'll not waste my breath on him anymore. Let the guys at his DZ do it....maybe they'll get through. Let's just hope he doesn't take up HP canopies and/or swooping.

Not sure if the "100 jump wonder" was a jab at me or not but i will say i don't claim to know a lot about skydiving. I'm just stating what my experience has been but i'm open to listen to everyone's point.

That being said, i don't want to hijack this thread anymore about ear plugs and skydiving. But as i said, i'm open to people's points of view about them especially people who are much more experienced than i am. However please keep it to PM's at this point so we don't hijack the thread anymore.

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride!

[bart 0]

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BTW, you never answered my question about your national federation. Do they really advocate NOT using radios because - as you put it - "if the radio fails the student needs to be able to land themselves anyway"?

Again I never disagree on the use of radios but I know we can do a good job without it. Again from your question, I would not say it if it wasn't true, but one thing that isn't true is that I'm in Australia. I'm not and never said I was. People assume that because I'm Australian. So it's not my National Federation it's someone elses. But as I have seen I agree with the method.

Most AFF courses I have been involved with were done in one day with the student either jumping at the end of the day they started or first thing the next day. Putting people through this quick radio is a efficient option.

As are tandem and I think doing a tandem with an instructor is probably the best way, having someone there with you not only for communication but takes lots of pressure of the student. But we don't work that way here.

When people come here to do AFF they do not come for a first jump course they come to do an AFF course the whole 7 jumps. For sure we have a few drop out skydiving is not for everybody. And I mean very few.

There is no such thing as the first jump course, they call it the ground school. That's because they not only come to do the first jump they come to do the whole course. They give up a week of there life to do so. They arrive on a friday night or early saturday. They begin there training on saturday morning and are being examined sunday evening.

Jumping begins on monday, by tuesday evening they are usually finished easily by wednesday with the AFF and onto consolidation jumps. By the end of the week weather permitted they have enough jumps for an A licence. Our CI has signed of 150 A licences this year. This sounds fast and we do put them through fast but this year on average we have had one repeat jump for every 21 or so jumps. That's one repeat jump for every 3 students doing the whole course so I don't believe we have any quality loss either. We also follow them through with every aspect escpecially canopy control while they are doing there consolidations, but that goes with out saying.

With a longer ground school it give people much more time to learn the canopy stuff, it's not like its just one 50 minute lesson.

So yes chuck I think we do have some thing special here something very special indeed.
We have added the audible as a guild, we added it on selected students first before we put it in place for the whole courses. We have found it not to be a distraction at all they handle it quite well

[chuckakers 370]

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BTW, you never answered my question about your national federation. Do they really advocate NOT using radios because - as you put it - "if the radio fails the student needs to be able to land themselves anyway"?

Again I never disagree on the use of radios but I know we can do a good job without it. Again from your question, I would not say it if it wasn't true, but one thing that isn't true is that I'm in Australia. I'm not and never said I was. People assume that because I'm Australian. So it's not my National Federation it's someone elses. But as I have seen I agree with the method.

Most AFF courses I have been involved with were done in one day with the student either jumping at the end of the day they started or first thing the next day. Putting people through this quick radio is a efficient option.

As are tandem and I think doing a tandem with an instructor is probably the best way, having someone there with you not only for communication but takes lots of pressure of the student. But we don't work that way here.

When people come here to do AFF they do not come for a first jump course they come to do an AFF course the whole 7 jumps. For sure we have a few drop out skydiving is not for everybody. And I mean very few.

There is no such thing as the first jump course, they call it the ground school. That's because they not only come to do the first jump they come to do the whole course. They give up a week of there life to do so. They arrive on a friday night or early saturday. They begin there training on saturday morning and are being examined sunday evening.

Jumping begins on monday, by tuesday evening they are usually finished easily by wednesday with the AFF and onto consolidation jumps. By the end of the week weather permitted they have enough jumps for an A licence. Our CI has signed of 150 A licences this year. This sounds fast and we do put them through fast but this year on average we have had one repeat jump for every 21 or so jumps. That's one repeat jump for every 3 students doing the whole course so I don't believe we have any quality loss either. We also follow them through with every aspect escpecially canopy control while they are doing there consolidations, but that goes with out saying.

With a longer ground school it give people much more time to learn the canopy stuff, it's not like its just one 50 minute lesson.

So yes chuck I think we do have some thing special here something very special indeed.
We have added the audible as a guild, we added it on selected students first before we put it in place for the whole courses. We have found it not to be a distraction at all they handle it quite well

I don't remember saying anything about where you are, but I'd be interested in seeing a copy of your federation's guidelines (whatever country you are talking about) encouraging NOT using radios. You are apparently convinced that they advocate it, but I'm interested in seeing it for myself.

Which federation is that?????

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 370]

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Would you rather he be deaf? Not using ear protection around, in, or while jumping out of an airplane is going to cause hearing damage.

Davinci explained it to you very nicely and aptly but *sigh* You missed the point entirely.

But, to answer your misdirection...
Hmmmmm....deaf....dead....deaf....dead....
Hey! I'll take deaf for $100 Alex!

Maybe we should do a little survey of all the old-timers here. You know, just for the education of the newbies. How many of you skydivers who have been jumping for greater than 20 years can't hear any more? How many hear just fine? How many actually listen to skydivers who have been around a lot longer than you?

26 years in the sport, 5,000+ really loud freefalls. No measurable hearing loss.

But maybe I'm really just that damn good!

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[strop45 0]

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26 years in the sport, 5,000+ really loud freefalls. No measurable hearing loss.

But maybe I'm really just that damn good!

I suspect that the plane rides have done more damage to your hearing than the freefalls.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[bart 0]

I don't remember saying anything about where you are, but I'd be interested in seeing a copy of your federation's guidelines (whatever country you are talking about) encouraging NOT using radios. You are apparently convinced that they advocate it, but I'm interested in seeing it for myself.

Which federation is that?????

Your right Chuck you never asked where I was but others have commented It's interesting whats happening down under, I just put that in so people aren't assuming that. Thats why I wrote "people" not "you" or "chuck". Sorry If you felt that was directed at you.
But of course now you are asking and really I don't think that is important. Unfortuately these forums are a great place for bashing peoples Ideas and methods, while I'm pretty happy for people to go for there life at me, I'm not going to allow that to be directed anywhere else.

I put it up here because someone in another forum said when I was ready for everyone's criticism on the issue of audibles to post it here. It was from the incident forum I made a comment about using them when someone remarked they thought students having them were a bad idea. I didn't believe it was then and no one has changed my mind yet. The reason I posted it was for myself. I'm sure I've written in one of my other post I believe it's super important to always evaluate ourselves as instructors. Whats good? what's not? what can we change? what can we make better? Technology changes it becomes more reliable, things become available now that weren't years ago. The use of wind tunnels is another, opps I feel a tangent coming on!!! please no one comment on that I'm sure there is eough threads on that!! And I'm not liking audibles to wind tunnels it's just about new technology. There's many thing that happen that can allow us to progress from even the most tried and tested ways that some people just don't want to change.

Also please understand that what we are doing here is on trial and putting the spotlight on anyone other than me isn't really fair or appropriate. I will say this, if the federation did not advocate the training of canopy flight without radios we just wouldn't be able to do it. We have always done it. Its not important who we are, whats important is the methods used. That's why I have expanded a little about our method and how we approach the course in general. We are all here very passionate about the sport and safety. Any decision we make comes out of careful planning and thought. Our season however is short we only have time for 15 courses a year. I wanted to hear from others, ideas about the concept for myself. I wont be training AFF here until next year and I would like to have some more ideas to think about.

What I was really interested to hear from was others that are using the audible or digitals for students. I know that we are not the only ones, but it doesn't seem that many of those people either read or participate in this forum. Perhaps they are just afraid of being beaten down by negetive feed back. I really don't know. Me on the other hand am not really discouraged to much from that sort of thing. There have been some good points raised amongst the verbal lashing that have been delt to me and others, but nothing we havn't thought about already before we began the trial both on the small scale and for everyone we train, and so far found unsubstanciated. So far that only strengthens my conviction about how we do things.
Blue skies and happy landings Audibles or not

[chuckakers 370]

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26 years in the sport, 5,000+ really loud freefalls. No measurable hearing loss.

But maybe I'm really just that damn good!

I suspect that the plane rides have done more damage to your hearing than the freefalls.

I do too, but I still have no measurable hearing loss. The genius that got us on the hearing topic was saying the 130db wind noise will hurt hearing.

He thinks his skydiving friends are losing their hearing, but they just aren't listening to him.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 370]

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I don't remember saying anything about where you are, but I'd be interested in seeing a copy of your federation's guidelines (whatever country you are talking about) encouraging NOT using radios. You are apparently convinced that they advocate it, but I'm interested in seeing it for myself.

Which federation is that?????

Your right Chuck you never asked where I was but others have commented It's interesting whats happening down under, I just put that in so people aren't assuming that. Thats why I wrote "people" not "you" or "chuck". Sorry If you felt that was directed at you.
But of course now you are asking and really I don't think that is important. Unfortuately these forums are a great place for bashing peoples Ideas and methods, while I'm pretty happy for people to go for there life at me, I'm not going to allow that to be directed anywhere else.

I put it up here because someone in another forum said when I was ready for everyone's criticism on the issue of audibles to post it here. It was from the incident forum I made a comment about using them when someone remarked they thought students having them were a bad idea. I didn't believe it was then and no one has changed my mind yet. The reason I posted it was for myself. I'm sure I've written in one of my other post I believe it's super important to always evaluate ourselves as instructors. Whats good? what's not? what can we change? what can we make better? Technology changes it becomes more reliable, things become available now that weren't years ago. The use of wind tunnels is another, opps I feel a tangent coming on!!! please no one comment on that I'm sure there is eough threads on that!! And I'm not liking audibles to wind tunnels it's just about new technology. There's many thing that happen that can allow us to progress from even the most tried and tested ways that some people just don't want to change.

Also please understand that what we are doing here is on trial and putting the spotlight on anyone other than me isn't really fair or appropriate. I will say this, if the federation did not advocate the training of canopy flight without radios we just wouldn't be able to do it. We have always done it. Its not important who we are, whats important is the methods used. That's why I have expanded a little about our method and how we approach the course in general. We are all here very passionate about the sport and safety. Any decision we make comes out of careful planning and thought. Our season however is short we only have time for 15 courses a year. I wanted to hear from others, ideas about the concept for myself. I wont be training AFF here until next year and I would like to have some more ideas to think about.

What I was really interested to hear from was others that are using the audible or digitals for students. I know that we are not the only ones, but it doesn't seem that many of those people either read or participate in this forum. Perhaps they are just afraid of being beaten down by negetive feed back. I really don't know. Me on the other hand am not really discouraged to much from that sort of thing. There have been some good points raised amongst the verbal lashing that have been delt to me and others, but nothing we havn't thought about already before we began the trial both on the small scale and for everyone we train, and so far found unsubstanciated. So far that only strengthens my conviction about how we do things.
Blue skies and happy landings Audibles or not

That was a whole lot of typing for very little answer.

So you can't produce the name of the federation or a copy of the text advocating not using radios. Just trying to keep us all honest here.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[bart 0]

That was a whole lot of typing for very little answer.

So you can't produce the name of the federation or a copy of the text advocating not using radios. Just trying to keep us all honest here.


Exactly... I couldn't have said it better but I'm being totally honest, I'm just not gonna bite on that one. I'll make it a little shorter this time for ya.

Where I am and which Federation I work under is not the Topic, the use of Audibles and Digital Altimeters for students is The rest for me is irrelevant, and as you say I've typed enough about why.