Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students

[chuckakers 370]

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That was a whole lot of typing for very little answer.

So you can't produce the name of the federation or a copy of the text advocating not using radios. Just trying to keep us all honest here.


Exactly... I couldn't have said it better but I'm being totally honest, I'm just not gonna bite on that one. I'll make it a little shorter this time for ya.

Where I am and which Federation I work under is not the Topic, the use of Audibles and Digital Altimeters for students is The rest for me is irrelevant, and as you say I've typed enough about why.

Bite on what? An honest question about a statement you made and then defended without citing the source?

You lied. That's ok. Just be honest and admit it.

People who make up sh*t up to try to win a debate are part of the problem with the sport. It's called misinformation and it can be deadly.

But I know that doesn't matter to you anyway.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[bart 0]

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That was a whole lot of typing for very little answer.

So you can't produce the name of the federation or a copy of the text advocating not using radios. Just trying to keep us all honest here.

Exactly... I couldn't have said it better but I'm being totally honest, I'm just not gonna bite on that one. I'll make it a little shorter this time for ya.

Where I am and which Federation I work under is not the Topic, the use of Audibles and Digital Altimeters for students is The rest for me is irrelevant, and as you say I've typed enough about why.

Bite on what? An honest question about a statement you made and then defended without citing the source?

You lied. That's ok. Just be honest and admit it.

People who make up sh*t up to try to win a debate are part of the problem with the sport. It's called misinformation and it can be deadly.

But I know that doesn't matter to you anyway.

No misinformation Chuck, nothing made up, I'm just not going to tell you the Federation I work under it's pretty simple really. I'm here to discuss instructor issues and training methods not politics!! Believe what ya like but there's Nothin Deadly about that!! And your right that doesn't really matter to me, politics that is not the truth The truth is always important

[chuckakers 370]

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That was a whole lot of typing for very little answer.

So you can't produce the name of the federation or a copy of the text advocating not using radios. Just trying to keep us all honest here.

Exactly... I couldn't have said it better but I'm being totally honest, I'm just not gonna bite on that one. I'll make it a little shorter this time for ya.

Where I am and which Federation I work under is not the Topic, the use of Audibles and Digital Altimeters for students is The rest for me is irrelevant, and as you say I've typed enough about why.

Bite on what? An honest question about a statement you made and then defended without citing the source?

You lied. That's ok. Just be honest and admit it.

People who make up sh*t up to try to win a debate are part of the problem with the sport. It's called misinformation and it can be deadly.

But I know that doesn't matter to you anyway.

No misinformation Chuck, nothing made up, I'm just not going to tell you the Federation I work under it's pretty simple really. I'm here to discuss instructor issues and training methods not politics!! Believe what ya like but there's Nothin Deadly about that!! And your right that doesn't really matter to me, politics that is not the truth The truth is always important

Feel free to omit which federation you are with - just copy and paste the text from their documentation proving your claim.

Or we could just open it up and ask everyone the question.....Does anyone know of a national skydiving organization that actually advocates NOT using radios on students? According to Mr. Secret Guy here, his "federation" advocates NOT giving students radios because (as he claims) "they will just have to land on their own if it fails"?

Anyone? Anyone?

Hell, while we're at it, does anyone know ANY national skydiving organization that advocates such a strategy????? I've been around quite a while and have seen a lot of interesting techniques, but not using radios because they might fail is a new one on me.

I think he's lying to the entire forum, but I really want to give him every chance to prove me wrong about his repeatedly defended statement.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[PiLFy 0]

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26 years in the sport, 5,000+ really loud freefalls. No measurable hearing loss.

But maybe I'm really just that damn good!

I suspect that the plane rides have done more damage to your hearing than the freefalls.

I do too, but I still have no measurable hearing loss. The genius that got us on the hearing topic was saying the 130db wind noise will hurt hearing.

He thinks his skydiving friends are losing their hearing, but they just aren't listening to him.

Have I said "Screw you, Chuck", yet? Oh yeah, I already did. Never mind.

OSHA, & all the entire medical establishment are all wrong. All they had to do was ask some schmuck named Chuck... That's brilliant, Einstein.

[BobMoore 0]

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OSHA, & all the entire medical establishment are all wrong. All they had to do was ask some schmuck named Chuck... That's brilliant, Einstein.

You can ask OSHA & all the entire medical establishment or you can ask skydivers who have two decades and thousands of jumps under their belt.

I'd like to see an OSHA report that has taken sound samples at freefall speeds (and in the airplane) and has determined that we are in danger of losing our hearing. For now I'll just listen to conversations around the bonfire, until I can't anymore.

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[chuckakers 370]

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26 years in the sport, 5,000+ really loud freefalls. No measurable hearing loss.

But maybe I'm really just that damn good!

I suspect that the plane rides have done more damage to your hearing than the freefalls.

I do too, but I still have no measurable hearing loss. The genius that got us on the hearing topic was saying the 130db wind noise will hurt hearing.

He thinks his skydiving friends are losing their hearing, but they just aren't listening to him.

Have I said "Screw you, Chuck", yet? Oh yeah, I already did. Never mind.

OSHA, & all the entire medical establishment are all wrong. All they had to do was ask some schmuck named Chuck... That's brilliant, Einstein.

Nooberville goes panty-wad, guys and gals. I must be the first guy in skydiving to jerk his RSL.

Hey wait a minute, he called me a schmuck! Hey Mods, Dooderanimous is PA'ing me!

Seriously, staying on topic - sort of - more or less, so the mods won't delete this stellar entertainment, I'm sure loud crap hurts hearing. Yeah, I get it. We all get it. Some loud crap probably hurts hearing worse than other loud crap, depending on a buttload of loud crap variables. But that doesn't matter.

What does matter is whether or not any hearing loss from un-earplugged skydiving is worth the diminished hearing ability skydiving with earplugs presents. Now I ain't no scientist. Hell I ain't even an assistant scientist, but in all my years of skyhoppin' I've known very few skyhoppers with hearing problems and a big fat NONE who were long-term staffer types - you know - folks with copious quantities of freefalls, wind noise and all - and damn near every one of them jumped without hearing protection.

Staying alive when hurling one's body at a perpendicular angle toward a big planet at a high rate of speed sometimes - ok, pretty danged often if you think about it - comes down to a razor's edge of events. People saddle within seconds of impact. A corking freeflyer or badly-burbled approaching FS diver passes inches from a might-have-been unconscious friend. Shit happens, and it happens in this sport a lot more often than any loyal skydiver would ever admit to whoever they keep the behind-the-scenes skydiving shit from in their life.

The difference in a close call for any of us may someday be whether or not we can hear something. Since I have seen no established pattern of ear-plugless veteran skydivers that can't hear the convenience store clerk say how much the case of beer costs, let's take the earplugs out before exit.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[popsjumper 2]

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Have I said "Screw you, Chuck", yet? Oh yeah, I already did. Never mind.

OSHA, & all the entire medical establishment are all wrong. All they had to do was ask some schmuck named Chuck... That's brilliant, Einstein.

Credibility score - 0
Immaturity score - 0
Entertainment value - 100...and at your age?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Digital altis aside, it sounds like you guys have a good training program according to what you posted about the ground school vs FJC.

I don't understand your reluctance to backup your claims with documentation. Until then, it remains just that....a claim and nothing more. If your "federation" was so cool, it appears to me that you would want to brag on it. But that's just me.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[bart 0]

Feel free to omit which federation you are with - just copy and paste the text from their documentation proving your claim.

Or we could just open it up and ask everyone the question.....Does anyone know of a national skydiving organization that actually advocates NOT using radios on students? According to Mr. Secret Guy here, his "federation" advocates NOT giving students radios because (as he claims) "they will just have to land on their own if it fails"?

Anyone? Anyone?

Hell, while we're at it, does anyone know ANY national skydiving organization that advocates such a strategy????? I've been around quite a while and have seen a lot of interesting techniques, but not using radios because they might fail is a new one on me.

I think he's lying to the entire forum, but I really want to give him every chance to prove me wrong about his repeatedly defended statement.

Nice try again but still not gonna say where I am. You can call me a liar, Heck chuck you can call me susan if you want, I'm just not posting it. If you really want to know then you will just have to wait.

It's not about being secret, it's about respecting the people I work with and the Federation that has given me the opportunity to work over here with the many student we have. I am very Fortunate to have found this place and it means alot to me. The Figures I quote are correct we have not only a solid program but great follow up awesome retention and a sports jumping scene that is just out of this world, so again you were right it really is something special. On the other hand mate... sorry but I have nothing to prove to you really. You have shown me very little respect chucky.

You can think what you like, I know what I say is the truth. What you think about that matters little to me more than ever. But the more you talk shit about me then the more will rebound on you because student radios aren't part of the handbook. You might have been round for a long time but how much time have you spent out of the states??

Oh and just so you don't have to ask me again about it there is one small problem with me cutting and pasting from the hand book. For starters it does not exist in PDF. I could scan it but that would mean I would have to scan the whole section on training student canopy flight to prove that they don't mention the radio. But the biggest problem for you is you wouldn't be able to read it anyway because it doesn't exist in english. Which means as soon as I post it you would know where I am!!! But thats not what this is about and this tangent has gone on long enough..

When the reports are finished with the Federation then I hope someone will publish the whole report as well. But It's not up to me. .

As I said this for me is about discussing AUDIBLES and DIGITAL ALTIMETERS, It's NOT ABOUT RADIO's, been here for 4 years I know we can operate with out them provided we educate our students in the right way. So anyone? anyone?

[bart 0]

Thanks pops I apprieciate it, there are lots of really good instructors behind it, and we all work hard at it.

I hope you read the post for Chuck and I hope it finally explains the whole thing. I think I have written enough on the "posting" subject now.

[bart 0]

Just curious: are the audibles used only as long as radios would have been used? I.e., after a certain point (usually, once they graduate AFF) the student goes without them?

I'm not an instructor (nor very experienced) but it seems to me that one useful function of radios is getting students through that phase where they have limited experience flying a landing pattern. I.e., at a time they have little or no experience visually judging altitude, little or no experience controling a canopy, little or no experience orienting themselves to their ground picture, and when they might also be close to being overwhelmed by all the other unfamiliar aspects of the experience. Since the audibles are useless for one important function that radios allow (helping the student learn to time their flare), I'm wondering when you think it is appropriate to wean them off of it. I.e., when exactly do you feel they are "grown up and ready to leave the nest"?

BTW, on my AFF level-1 jump I had a long spot, and barely made it back to the LZ after flying a direct line the whole way, and was unable to land following the preplanned landing pattern. (The other AFF-1 student who exited before me landed off.) I landed safely and uneventfully by being directed in by radio to do an opposite-turn pattern putting me on the preplanned final leg (with somewhat abbreviated downwind, base, and final legs due to my lack of altitude). An audible would have been less than useless for that jump, more likely to have distracted me than anything else. (And it probably would have been useless for the other student who landed off.)

This is probably the most difficult one to solve, when is it time to take the Audible away. Some students nail the pattern on the first jump some it takes awhile to get it. For most part I think that most students who have progressed past the level 7 could be done with it for the canopy part. But then perhaps the hard deck indicator, the free fall alarm is then better served when they do there first jumps without an instructor present.

We have allowed our students to keep using the audibles as they progress with there consolidation jumps. A few have also jumped without them as they approached there A licence and flown there canopies well.

As far as the off DZ situation goes, every student is briefed on landing off as we all should be. They know if they can't make it back that they need to find an alternative. The audible can still assist them by letting them know there altitude and working out there decent rate while they find somewhere else to land. What I mean is still conveying info to them audibly while they fly with there eyes. The pattern remember is just a pattern and can be flown over any part of the planet, whats important is finding a safe place to land and making that decision as early as practically possible. Many injuries are caused by people fighting to make it back to the DZ and turning into wind at the last minute because they relised they can't make it back too late. They either turn to low, or put themselves somewhere that's not safe to land. An audible wont make you land anywhere on or off the DZ but it can give you some valuable info while your looking for somewhere to land.

[PiLFy 0]

Crawl back in your moonshine bottle, Andy. Chuck didn't prove a thing, & neither did you.

[chuckakers 370]

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Feel free to omit which federation you are with - just copy and paste the text from their documentation proving your claim.

Or we could just open it up and ask everyone the question.....Does anyone know of a national skydiving organization that actually advocates NOT using radios on students? According to Mr. Secret Guy here, his "federation" advocates NOT giving students radios because (as he claims) "they will just have to land on their own if it fails"?

Anyone? Anyone?

Hell, while we're at it, does anyone know ANY national skydiving organization that advocates such a strategy????? I've been around quite a while and have seen a lot of interesting techniques, but not using radios because they might fail is a new one on me.

I think he's lying to the entire forum, but I really want to give him every chance to prove me wrong about his repeatedly defended statement.

Nice try again but still not gonna say where I am. You can call me a liar, Heck chuck you can call me susan if you want, I'm just not posting it. If you really want to know then you will just have to wait.

It's not about being secret, it's about respecting the people I work with and the Federation that has given me the opportunity to work over here with the many student we have. I am very Fortunate to have found this place and it means alot to me. The Figures I quote are correct we have not only a solid program but great follow up awesome retention and a sports jumping scene that is just out of this world, so again you were right it really is something special. On the other hand mate... sorry but I have nothing to prove to you really. You have shown me very little respect chucky.

You can think what you like, I know what I say is the truth. What you think about that matters little to me more than ever. But the more you talk shit about me then the more will rebound on you because student radios aren't part of the handbook. You might have been round for a long time but how much time have you spent out of the states??

Oh and just so you don't have to ask me again about it there is one small problem with me cutting and pasting from the hand book. For starters it does not exist in PDF. I could scan it but that would mean I would have to scan the whole section on training student canopy flight to prove that they don't mention the radio. But the biggest problem for you is you wouldn't be able to read it anyway because it doesn't exist in english. Which means as soon as I post it you would know where I am!!! But thats not what this is about and this tangent has gone on long enough..

When the reports are finished with the Federation then I hope someone will publish the whole report as well. But It's not up to me. .

As I said this for me is about discussing AUDIBLES and DIGITAL ALTIMETERS, It's NOT ABOUT RADIO's, been here for 4 years I know we can operate with out them provided we educate our students in the right way. So anyone? anyone?

You're right, I haven't shown you much respect because you aren't having an honest conversation, instead making one excuse after another for not answering the question.

I don't respect liars. I find it somewhere between very difficult and completely impossible to believe that any country's federation advocates NOT using radios on students, and simply asked you to provide the text of that policy without naming the federation or giving away your top secret DZ. You're a smart guy. I'm sure you could figure out some way to do that.

First you said your federation advocates NOT using radios because (your words) "students would just have to land without one if it failed". In this post you say radios aren't part of the handbook. So were you lying when you said your federation has a position on the issue or were you lying when in this post you say they don't?

BTW, I'm not talking sh*t about you. I'm just calling you out....mate.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[PiLFy 0]

You know, Chuckles. If this was just you on your soapbox, doing your World According to Garp thing? I'd let it go. The problem is a lot of low-timers read these forums for advice. You're doing them a disservice. You've been in the sport for 25yrs w/o appreciable hearing loss? You know some other long term jumpers who have also been lucky in that? Good for you guys. Not everyone is that lucky. When the DOCTORS are tasked w/establishing limits for noise exposure , as for OSHA. They're not picking decibel levels on a whim. These aren't arbitrary values they've chosen. The data they utilize has been empirically borne out through many decades of medicine. The data accumulated from well-over 100yrs of modern medicine states that noise levels >85dB does damage. That is the threshold. You might want to look @this chart from OSHA. Pay attention to graph G16: http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=9735 Here's a couple more: http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/noise.asp http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/tinnitus.htm

Normal conversation is about 60dBs. Freefall has been measured @130dBs. The threshold being 85dBs, how loud do you think that twenty minute plane ride up to altitude is? How many times a day do you take that ride? Sit near the engines on an Otter, & the level goes a lot higher than 130dBs. All of which is considerably louder than a leaf blower or lawn mower. Both of which require hearing protection. As you can see from these links. They're dealing w/a test population in excess of 300 million people. Add up the skydiving population any way you please. You won't even come close. In any given year, you're dealing w/an USPA membership hovering around 32,000 members, many of them long term. One figure cited in an above link is 26 MILLION Americans w/noise-induced hearing loss. Are you aware that you can lose about 50% of your hearing before noticing a deficit yourself? Have you any idea how intrusive hearing damage is in One's life? If you've been lucky w/this. Good for you. Don't make that call for everyone because you don't know how many won't be so lucky. It's not about the hearing loss? It's about sacrificing your hearing to maybe hear an impending canopy collision? Tell that to someone w/Tinnitus & Hyperacusis. You remind me of an old DI w/that line. WW2 veterans tell of being ordered to fire their weapons w/o any hearing protection. It was so they could hear orders being yelled @them. Until they couldn't hear the orders anymore...

P.S.: You're not the first rude instructor I've met in this sport. I'm sure you won't be the last. You're not under my skin. To me, you're just a throwback to another era when people would put up w/your type.

[chuckakers 370]

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You know, Chuckles. If this was just you on your soapbox, doing your World According to Garp thing? I'd let it go. The problem is a lot of low-timers read these forums for advice. You're doing them a disservice. You've been in the sport for 25yrs w/o appreciable hearing loss? You know some other long term jumpers who have also been lucky in that? Good for you guys. Not everyone is that lucky. When the DOCTORS are tasked w/establishing limits for noise exposure , as for OSHA. They're not picking decibel levels on a whim. These aren't arbitrary values they've chosen. The data they utilize has been empirically borne out through many decades of medicine. The data accumulated from well-over 100yrs of modern medicine states that noise levels >85dB does damage. That is the threshold. You might want to look @this chart from OSHA. Pay attention to graph G16: http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=9735 Here's a couple more: http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/noise.asp http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/tinnitus.htm

Normal conversation is about 60dBs. Freefall has been measured @130dBs. The threshold being 85dBs, how loud do you think that twenty minute plane ride up to altitude is? How many times a day do you take that ride? Sit near the engines on an Otter, & the level goes a lot higher than 130dBs. All of which is considerably louder than a leaf blower or lawn mower. Both of which require hearing protection. As you can see from these links. They're dealing w/a test population in excess of 300 million people. Add up the skydiving population any way you please. You won't even come close. In any given year, you're dealing w/an USPA membership hovering around 32,000 members, many of them long term. One figure cited in an above link is 26 MILLION Americans w/noise-induced hearing loss. Are you aware that you can lose about 50% of your hearing before noticing a deficit yourself? Have you any idea how intrusive hearing damage is in One's life? If you've been lucky w/this. Good for you. Don't make that call for everyone because you don't know how many won't be so lucky. It's not about the hearing loss? It's about sacrificing your hearing to maybe hear an impending canopy collision? Tell that to someone w/Tinnitus & Hyperacusis. You remind me of an old DI w/that line. WW2 veterans tell of being ordered to fire their weapons w/o any hearing protection. It was so they could hear orders being yelled @them. Until they couldn't hear the orders anymore...

P.S.: You're not the first rude instructor I've met in this sport. I'm sure you won't be the last. You're not under my skin. To me, you're just a throwback to another era when people would put up w/your type.

You sound like a public service announcement, Noob.

Bet you're a riot around the keg, though.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[PiLFy 0]

I expect nothing better from you, Chuckles.

[chuckakers 370]

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I expect nothing better from you, Chuckles.

Nor should you as long as you wear that expert attitude on your newbie ass.

Fall is coming folks. Probably won't be long till Albert Nooberstein gets his ass kicked around the bonfire.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[PiLFy 0]

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I expect nothing better from you, Chuckles.

Nor should you as long as you wear that expert attitude on your newbie ass.

Fall is coming folks. Probably won't be long till Albert Nooberstein gets his ass kicked around the bonfire.

I never said I was an expert @skydiving. Stick to the facts.

[chuckakers 370]

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I expect nothing better from you, Chuckles.

Nor should you as long as you wear that expert attitude on your newbie ass.

Fall is coming folks. Probably won't be long till Albert Nooberstein gets his ass kicked around the bonfire.

I never said I was an expert @skydiving. Stick to the facts.

Fact: Probably won't be long till Albert Nooberstein gets his ass kicked around the bonfire.

This is too easy, but I could do it all night.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[PiLFy 0]

Come & get it, Chuck.

[popsjumper 2]

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Thanks pops I apprieciate it, there are lots of really good instructors behind it, and we all work hard at it.

I hope you read the post for Chuck and I hope it finally explains the whole thing. I think I have written enough on the "posting" subject now.

Whoa! Don't get ahead of yourself yet. I didn't say I agreed with anything you're doing. I said it sounds like....and since you refuse to document your claims, I have no real reason to believe anything you say. I'm with Chuck on the audible issue and the reluctance issue.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Girl! Don't you get it? You've made yourself a laughingstock many times over here in this thread and several others too.

I feel sorry for you.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skydiver604 0]

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Girl! Don't you get it? You've made yourself a laughingstock many times over here in this thread and several others too.

I feel sorry for you.

Kinda like watching a newly licensed private pilot telling Chuck Yeager how to fly an airplane.

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

[bart 0]

First you said your federation advocates NOT using radios because (your words) "students would just have to land without one if it failed". In this post you say radios aren't part of the handbook. So were you lying when you said your federation has a position on the issue or were you lying when in this post you say they don't?

BTW, I'm not talking sh*t about you. I'm just calling you out....mate.

Actually chucky you haven't called anything although if you believe that well I guess it might be good for ya ego so go ahead... I've answered all that chucky boy if you don't get it then well I guess your just an idiot, sorry dude but I don't respect dickheads

[bart 0]

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Thanks pops I apprieciate it, there are lots of really good instructors behind it, and we all work hard at it.

I hope you read the post for Chuck and I hope it finally explains the whole thing. I think I have written enough on the "posting" subject now.

Whoa! Don't get ahead of yourself yet. I didn't say I agreed with anything you're doing. I said it sounds like....and since you refuse to document your claims, I have no real reason to believe anything you say. I'm with Chuck on the audible issue and the reluctance issue.

Relax pops me old buddy it's not me getting ahead of myself I know ya don't agree with what we were doing I was only refering to the part about the ground course verses first jump course, wow you old timers need to take a chill pill!!!