GravityGirl 0 #1 November 20, 2006 ... you were reserve side on a level one. Dive plan is lock on at 6k, waive off at 5.5 and pull.... .... and the main side (with no indication to you) reached in and dumped the student at 5.5k? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #2 November 20, 2006 Well he/she better have a good reason for doing so when we get on the ground, with lack of any good reason for it, yes I would be a tad displeased. I would chalk that up to "hindering the students learning", how do you pass them to LV2 without giving them to chance to pass LV1. The first 3 TLO's are freebee's but the 4th is make it or break it on that LV. Again without a very good reason, I would be talking to the main side JM, if it happened again, I wouldn't work with them anymore and would even discuss the matter with the S&TA & DZO. If you pass the course and earn your rating then you better act like it from day one, and count on being held to higher standards by your peers.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #3 November 20, 2006 It did happen again. On the very next jump. It sucks that the student didn't get the opportunity to pull himself, but it sucks more that my face was in the danger zone. I've been kicked in the face by a deploying student before. I like a little warning so I can "assume the position" to guard myself. I'll bring it up with the JM. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #4 November 20, 2006 Sounds to me like there was no good reason then? Yes you need to have a talk with them. Uncool! I try to "get ready" if I can @ 6k and look over the top to the main side and make eye contact for the pull, but as you know that's not always possable to do, how many times have we had great LV1's till the bottom end when it all goes to hell in a hurry. Good thing you didn't the shit kicked out of you. I jumped for a very long time without a cypres and even went to the course without one, but it only took the first two "real world" AFF's to get one installed ASAP for that very reason. (too easy to get kicked)you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #5 November 20, 2006 Quotebut it sucks more that my face was in the danger zone. I've been kicked in the face by a deploying student before. I like a little warning so I can "assume the position" to guard myself. It sounds to me like mabye you have some either new JM's or very uncurrent JMs that are either scared or just uncurrent. Remember back when you were on your first real AFF jump and timed moved very quickly--------same thing happens all over again when the TI (with an AFF rating) gets pulled over to the AFF rotation in a pinch As for the 'I like a little warning before the pull' --- I see that as your issues and you should be more aware of what is happening on the other side --- JM eye contact though out the dive (quick looks over the student to see if the other JM is really 'muscling' the student or smiling is critical as to knowing the intentions of your other side) ...........it sound to me like a new JM and no you shouldn't be mad you should educate just like someone helped you The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #6 November 20, 2006 Curious: were you the more experienced and/or current JM? (If so, why was the other guy flying main side?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #7 November 20, 2006 Did you ask why they did it on the first jump, before you jumped again? I can remember being new and feeling like time was very limited but that eased up in a short while. I also had issues with my Neptune reading 300' lower than the students Alti3. I thought they were behind the curve and I was jumping it. I only occasionally find myself doing more than guiding the students hand to the handle these days and I am glad. I always feel like I didn't hold up my end of the deal if the student won't even pull with assistance. I am still curious why they are pulling out 2 students that high."... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #8 November 20, 2006 QuoteCurious: were you the more experienced and/or current JM? (If so, why was the other guy flying main side?) If I didn't feel comfortable on either side, I don't think I should go up with a real student. Just my opinion but most AFFs could be handled by any solid flier. Of course when they go bad, you need to know in your heart you were qualified to be there. You never know when you could be the only instructor still with the student. There are stories of some of the best in the business having nightmare level 1 and level 2 jumps. As I have said before, I am still eager to learn from other instructors."... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #9 November 20, 2006 I would not be pissed at all but this does invite room for discussion as to the why's of the situation. AFFI's need to be able to have discussion between one another. Just talk to the other JM, there was probably a reason, at least a reason that was good enough for the other JM to believe that the deployment was necessary. -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cacophony 0 #10 November 20, 2006 Maybe you suck at spotting Once maybe, but twice.... Same student or different? Too many variables to make any decision on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #11 November 20, 2006 QuoteMaybe you suck at spotting Once maybe, but twice.... Same student or different? Too many variables to make any decision on. And with a bad spot I give pull signal and try to assist. I have missed signals the other instructor had given but I like to know about it. I try to be aware so I would ask what happened from their perspective. I can't remember anything that had me pissed at an instructor in freefall. Maybe I have just been lucky? I am okay with that."... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmarshall234 13 #12 November 20, 2006 It sounds like that JM needs to be reminded we are a _Team_ up there. (Never a problem when Bonnie and I worked together in SD.) I would never consider dumping a student out at an unexpected time without first making BIGEYE contact with the reserve side JM. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #13 November 20, 2006 Lot's of good questions. First off, I have had my rating for about 10 years. I have about 700 AFF jumps. I just came back from a 4 month LOA, and I have never done AFF at this DZ. So I'm trying to observe and ask questions as to protocol for this DZ. I don't know the other JMs experience level. In fact I got thrown into the rotation on a 10 minute call. The spot was good. The student was normal. I tried to make eye contact several times with the other JM. Nothing. There were a lot of signals being flashed from the main side in quick succession. It is my impression that she might be fairly new. But I don't want to assume. I did ask after the first jump if she pulled him out at 5.5. She said, when the student is all "unstable" like that, she would rather be safe than sorry. The only unstability I saw was from his reactions to the quick signal changes. I mean, you can't just throw a hips down and follow it up with a legs out and an alti check, and then back to hips down. I have the distinct impression that I am perceived as the FNG, so I didn't say anything. But I anticipated it on the next jump. So now I do want to say something. I'm just trying to come up with a diplomatic approach. Suggestions? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #14 November 20, 2006 That kinda sucks you got thrown in the call on such short notice...it happens but I hate when it does. It could have just been a fluke...new instructor trying to look like they knew what they were doing in front a new person on the dz. Did the student really need the corrections that were given? If I were in your shoes I would most likely talk to the other instructor first, try to find out what their plan is for the bottom end (and the rest of the dive for that matter) to avoid confusion should the reserve need to be deployed. From there I would talk to other instructors at the dz...see if this instructors actions are common practice. If not happy with the answers maybe talk to the chief instructor/S&TA to find out if they are in the know of how students are handled. To stay diplomatic just don't come at anyone with an accusatory approach...always inquisitive and it should keep from putting others on the defensive. Hope that helps...Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #15 November 20, 2006 QuoteCurious: were you the more experienced and/or current JM? (If so, why was the other guy flying main side?) Main and reserve side have nothing to do with experience levels of the instructors.Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmarshall234 13 #16 November 20, 2006 I usually approach a situation like that by simply saying something like ..."can you do me a favor and give me some eye contact before dumping the student out? I almost got kicked that last time". If you say it kindly and in the spirit of cooperation and safety there is usually a good response and it opens up the dialogue. From your comments it sounds like she is (likely) pretty inexperienced and will soon be learning from you anyway. In the meantime, you will be perceived as the FNG until you prove yourself (again). Good luck and be safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #17 November 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteCurious: were you the more experienced and/or current JM? (If so, why was the other guy flying main side?) Main and reserve side have nothing to do with experience levels of the instructors. Maybe they shouldn't, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #18 November 21, 2006 Depends. All those signals flashed in quick succession, was there a check alti, or pull hidden in there The only way you are going to find out WHY she did what she did is to ask her. Maybe the "I's" Alti is off? 1. I would find out exactly what the DZs dive flow is. 2. I would ask the chief instructor what they want. I have seen DZ's that will fail you for going below the hard deck one foot and others that will cut you some slack. 3. I would ask the "I" why she dumped them out. It could be that her alti is 500 feet off and the DZ has a hard rule about going below it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 122 #19 November 21, 2006 a lot of good questions, as the new "I" on the DZ I'd go to the Chief "I" and ask for details on their protocol, based on what you hear it might be appropriate to say, well on the last 2 jumps this is what happened and you were just wondering of course the other "I" most likely will feel that you are a rat if they find out about the conversation soooo...you have to decide how to handle this based on your skin thickness, the politics and the personalities involvedGive one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #20 November 21, 2006 Maybe an altimeter difference? -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #21 November 21, 2006 LOL! My skin is pretty thick. I guess when I asked her if she knew she had pulled him out at 5.5 the first time, I figure she would pick up what I was putting down and look at me on the second skydive and perhaps let the student pull. I like what Robert said. Explains the cons of pulling without notice and ask for eye contact and communication in the future. Thanks for the input ya'll. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raff 4 #22 November 22, 2006 It is too late for a "diplomatic approach." You have chosen to air, in a public forum, that which should have been dealt with behind closed doors in a professional manner. Instead you are trying to conscript allies and the upshot is that you will be perceived as a s--t disturber at best. You might want to inspect your motives for bringing this to the e-world. Hell, your alti could have accounted for the entire disparity. Unless this is all about "winning", get the individual back on your side by apologizing for all of the above ado, and try to determine what would be best for your students. What a concept! RaffIf you leave the plane without a parachute, you will be fine for the rest of your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #23 November 22, 2006 Quote You have chosen to air, in a public forum, that which should have been dealt with behind closed doors in a professional manner. I would have been hesitant to ask this on the forum too, due to the nature of the crap you typically read on here. I have to say I have been impressed with the way it has been treated by everyone who has answered. At least until now. I haven't noticed anyone trying to figure out who the involved party is. I don't even think they care. I know I don't. I now have more insight concerning possible reasons and thought paths that could cause this. I think anyone who takes this that personally has deeper issues. There isn't much on your profile but it doesn't say you are an Instructor so you may not understand how seriously we take safety as well as teaching. If you are an instructor then I don't know why you seem so upset by this. Have a great Thanksgiving. Robin"... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #24 November 22, 2006 QuoteIf you are an instructor then I don't know why you seem so upset by this. He is an experienced AFF Instructor. He's just trying to stay stealth..... <>> Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #25 November 23, 2006 QuoteHe is an experienced AFF Instructor. He's just trying to stay stealth..... I really suspected as much but I thought he was awfully hard on her in a public forum as he pointed out himself. If he knows the people involved he could speak to them and not all of us. The whole two wrongs don't make a right and all that jazz. I never really bought into the do as I say not as I do. I realize I have a lot to learn and I am always trying to do so. Of course presentation is important, whether it be one of us dealing with a student or a more experienced instructor sharing his wisdom. I really do wish everyone a wonderful Turkey Day. Let's go work on our fall rates. Cheers, Robin"... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
