Pros & Cons of Tandem / AFF Progression

[JumperWillis 0]

Just looking for some answers to questions I have about Tandem/AFF progression as compared to only AFF. What is the cost for Tandem/AFF progression? Is it more risky for the AFF instructor or student when converting to wearing your own gear? Which is the fastest way to the "A" license? As an AFF instructor, are you willing to jump with a student that has done only tandem jumps? Any pros or cons on the Tandem/AFF method for beginners will be most appreciated.

[steveorino 7]

Fastest way: It takes 25 jumps and a complete profecientcy card to earn your "A".

You can do both by any method in 25 jumps if you don't have to repeat levels.

steveOrino

[marks2065 0]

imo a tandem is safer for first jump and that makes it easier to train a student for aff because they have a related experience to teach from

[Ron 7]

That is a really great question.

Quote

What is the cost for Tandem/AFF progression?

Totally depends on your DZ. Tandems should be cheaper than some AFF jumps.

Quote

Is it more risky for the AFF instructor or student when converting to wearing your own gear?

I would say that it is safer for everyone if the student has a tandem before AFF.

Quote

Which is the fastest way to the "A" license?

As someone already said, it takes 25 jumps and passing some objectives to get the "A". Tandems count as jumps.

Quote

As an AFF instructor, are you willing to jump with a student that has done only tandem jumps?

Yes. I think a student that has a tandem is safer than a student that has never been if freefall before. I'll take a student on an AFF jump for their first jump, so taking one that has done a tandem is no issue at all.

Quote

Any pros or cons on the Tandem/AFF method for beginners will be most appreciated.

With out getting into the personal issues like "I didn't want to be strapped to a person for my first jump". I can't really think of a single negative issue with a Tandem/AFF program. I personally think that at least one tandem would be a great addition to the start of any student program.

I also like how the TI can give hands on canopy coaching. I had a student that just did not get it under canopy. So we did a tandem so I could SHOW her all the things I, and others, tried to tell her.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerrob 558]

That first jump - no matter what method - is such a huge psychological leap, that few students can concentrate.
I will give you a hint, only one or two schools in Canada offer freefall on the first jump.
The vast majority of Canadian schools require students to do a few tandems or IAD (similar to static-line) jumps before introducing students to freefall instructors.
For example, our partner school in Niagara, Ontario has secumed to market pressures by offering "AFF", however their "AFF" program includes a "free" IAD jump.
Hee!
Hee!

Similarly, when I worked at Skydiving Adventures (in Hemet, Calfornia) a decade ago, most students started with a tandem. The one percent of students who insisted on starting with AFF, usually were over-whelmed. After landing, the majority of Hemet's AFF students said:"I wish I had started with a tandem."

I have told the boss - that if he wants me to freefall with first timers - he has to pay me double.

[jarrodh 0]

I cant give you an instructors perspective of the Tandem Progression since I am a low timer but I was a student of the Tandem Progression and I highly reccomend it.

In the 3 Tandem training jumps I had I got to do a lot of Practice Handle touches and learned Altitude awareness and the feeling of freefall without being overwhelmed by jumping solo. When the day came when I started solos I was very comfortable and felt more aware then I think I would have if that was my first freefall.

2 BITS....4 BITS....6 BITS....A DOLLAR!....ALL FOR THE GATORS....STAND UP AND HOLLER!!!!

[icevideot 0]

Quote

I can't really think of a single negative issue with a Tandem/AFF program.

This is nit picking and I don't have any trouble taking AFF's with prior tandems but it can sometimes be tough to teach them that flaring doesn't always mean pick your knees up and stick your feet out Plf's work betterif your feet touch first but most of them are simple enough to retrain. I can't help but wonder if they actually picked their feet up on their tandem or did they drag their feet underneath. That would make it a bit more ingrained I think.
lol

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[dzolloyd 0]

This post is very interesting to me. I am the DZO at a small two cessna dropzone in Oklahoma. As of right now I offer IAD and AFF for students wanting to progress in the sport. Tandem, so far, is just a ride at my DZ. We have been "specializing" in AFF for years. Now days we are short on AFF instructors. Some of my AFF instructors have quit the sport altogether and the new upcomers are afraid to try for the rating or can't afford the training and USPA cert course. We have only three AFFI's, two of which are also TI's. Sometimes two AFFI's are not available at all for levels 1, 2, and 3. This is very frusterating for students. After the three tandem jumps teaching, altitude awareness, stability, pulls, forward movement, and turns, I am assuming that one AFFI could handle the progression quite well. My Chief AFF instructor, also the S&TA here is quite leary about taking a student on a one jumpmaster dive. He is not a TI. The other two AFFI's are also TI's. Everything I have read so far is pro. Any cons?

GET SOME, altitude!

[bodypilot1 0]

I do a private course consisting of 2 working tandems and 4 single instructor AFF jumps with video, and it works GREAT!
If you choose the tandem progression at a DZ, make sure the TI is AFF rated, they will give you better input/debrief on body position and what to correct for your next level. It will also help the AFF-I greatly should get handed off to another instructor.


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Ron 7]

Quote

After the three tandem jumps teaching, altitude awareness, stability, pulls, forward movement, and turns, I am assuming that one AFFI could handle the progression quite well. My Chief AFF instructor, also the S&TA here is quite leary about taking a student on a one jumpmaster dive.

Personally I would do two tandems, with the TLO's of AFF L1 and 2, and then an AFF level 3. I would prefer that the first time a student is released be with two folks there. The leg position is the problem that most students have, and tandems are not great for teaching leg position IMO.

This would reduce the need for two JM's to only one jump and provide a larger safety margin.

Quote

Everything I have read so far is pro. Any cons?

With T1 and T2 and AFF3 I see no cons at all. I think this is the best of both worlds.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[icevideot 0]

At what point do you guys think a full first jump course should be taught?

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[Ron 7]

Quote

At what point do you guys think a full first jump course should be taught?

Before the first non tandem jump...Whenever that is.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[livendive 8]

Quote

I do a private course consisting of 2 working tandems and 4 single instructor AFF jumps with video, and it works GREAT!
If you choose the tandem progression at a DZ, make sure the TI is AFF rated, they will give you better input/debrief on body position and what to correct for your next level. It will also help the AFF-I greatly should get handed off to another instructor.

When I've done this method, it's been that, with the addition of a non-working tandem on the front (unless we already know they're planning to progress). Ideally, I'll personally do their last tandem before JMing their first AFF, just so I have some idea what to expect for body position, but that's not critical as long as I trust whoever's doing the working tandems to evaluate the jumps squarely. The biggest advantage of this method in my mind is it's easier to get students in the air...they only ever have to wait on one instructor instead of two.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

Quote

At what point do you guys think a full first jump course should be taught?

I've broken it up, so they get body position, canopy control, and hand-signals during the tandems. Then the FJC is just AC-emergencies, exit & dive-flow, EPs, landing hazards, and PLFs.

One thing on body position - as soon as you know they're going to progress, teach a regular freefall leg position rather than "kick me in the butt" tandem position. A TI worth his salt should have no problems flying it, and it'll avoid exaggerated backsliding problems later.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[popsjumper 2]

Not a TI, but a Caoch who has taught many FJCs:

Any transition student I get, gets the full FJC...nothing missing.

Pros:
The idea of getting the "deer-in-the-headlights" sensory overload out of the way before doing AFF Level 1 is very good.

Learning canopy control is much easier with someone right there in the air with you.

Cons:
Tandem progression students quite too often tend to do the tandem-butt-slide landings regardless of how much PLF training they do.

Body position is all important in AFF and students don't get the real feel for flying the relative wind on a tandem.

Relative motion takes much more input moving two people than one and tandem students tend to over-do movements such as turning and forward movement when transitioning to AFF.

Actions could easily flip them over on their back and/or cause hard spins in AFF don't have the same results in Tandem progression.

Opinion:
Regardless of how a TI tries NOT to help a student with manuevers, they really can't help it, I think. That also applies to AFF Level 2 team turns. Many transition students I have seen have to repeat the AFF Level 3 they come in on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Tandem-to-AFF transitions but really, it comes with its own set of problems to overcome...many of which could

Disclaimer before the real instructors pipe in to contradict:
Many of the problems I pointed out also are problems with AFF-only students, too, as can be expected of anyone learing how to jump out of airplanes and save their lives.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ron 7]

Quote

Relative motion takes much more input moving two people than one and tandem students tend to over-do movements such as turning and forward movement when transitioning to AFF.

Actions could easily flip them over on their back and/or cause hard spins in AFF don't have the same results in Tandem progression.

Opinion:
Regardless of how a TI tries NOT to help a student with manuevers, they really can't help it

Then the TI *does* help the student turn when he sees a correct input. That way the student does not have to over do the input.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tdog 0]

Quote

After the three tandem jumps teaching, altitude awareness, stability, pulls, forward movement, and turns, I am assuming that one AFFI could handle the progression quite well.

I would not want to be a single AFF instructor on the first let go skydive unless the student has documented (video) time in a windtunnel being able to prove well rounded flying skills.

I have jumped with people who I thought would be fast who turned out to push my limits on slowfall. And I have jumped with people who fell like a brick while built like a feather.

On the first let go skydive (level 3) - students often have nothing to do except hold heading and remain altitude aware after a practice touch and COA, so during the short circles they can get more and more and more tense as their brain has time to think about what they are actually doing and the upcoming pull, thus flattening out, maybe spinning, and slowing down right before pull time. On levels 4-7 typically they have flips, turns, and forward motion until the end - and typically these maneuvers cause the student to keep the fall rate fast - and mind busy so they don't tense up. I find level 3 (first let go two instructor dive) to be the hardest as an AFFI.

I think the first let go skydive should have two instructors, perhaps with even slightly opposite body shapes/fallrates themselves, so if the student goes super slow or super fast - you have one instructor that finds that speed to be the center of their range and the other who is maxed out - just in case the you know what hits the fan.

Then the instructors can notate in the schools logs - "this student floats like a feather" so the next jumps are assigned to an instructor who also floats.

I just think until you know what the student is going to actually do when completely let go, two instructors is a good insurance policy.

Now, I say this with only one season doing AFF jumps - so perhaps I am a bit timid and overly cautious...

[ptwob267 0]

I feel that the students ive worked with in the tandem progression are much more confident getting ready for the skydive, which in the instances I have worked with them has been a bad thing, especially for the first aff dive which is single instructor, your first time in the door on your own, first time with a rig on, first release time, and first time using a boc. I would say if you are trying to become a skydiver, why not just start with the rig on your back not someone elses. The tandem progression I agree is very useful for some dz's that do not have a full staff and it allows them to get students in the air more often, but I think overall it is much more beneficial to go through a full aff course. Good luck. Blue Skies...

[dzolloyd 0]

Welp, I've read replies here and other places on this topic and have decided to do the T/AFF progression at SDA.

Tandem #1 (Arch, reading the altimeter, PRCP, & canopy control).
Tandem #2 (Same as above with leg drills and actual pull).
Tandem #3 (Same as above with turns).
Then full AFF FJC & one AFFI Level 3 release dive.

I do realize some AFFI's out there shudder on release dives with two JM's. However, when I got my AFFI ticket (Don Yarhling course) we were required to be able to handle any AFF level with only one JM. We were evaluated on six jumps and if you couldn't cut it you didn't get your ticket. Having eleven seasons under my belt, I have no fear of letting go of a student that has been exposed to freefall training 3-4 times. I have caught plenty of level 4's & 5's to stop the spins and turn them over. I had to stop spins & rollover on four out of the six evaul dives to get my ticket. Now, as a DZO I expect my AFF instructors to posess and exhibit such skill qualities. Things are a lot easier for AFFI's nowdays. Some have pencil whipped and rubber stamped their way to their AFFI ticket. Most of those instructors are afraid to freearm their students even on a level three (they should be free arming from level one).

I may be short on AFFI's at my DZ, as I only have 3 right now, but if I thought they couldn't handle a single JM slot, they wouldn't be AFFI's at my DZ to begin with. I am truely blessed with instructor skills at SDA.

GET SOME, altitude!

[icevideot 0]

Sounds like a solid plan to me. I haven't really worked with Tandem/AFF progression yet but it sounds like it should work. Once you have had time to evaluate it, let us know what you learned.

Happy Holidays,
Robin

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[tdog 0]

Quote

I had to stop spins & rollover on four out of the six evaul dives to get my ticket. Now, as a DZO I expect my AFF instructors to posess and exhibit such skill qualities. Things are a lot easier for AFFI's nowdays. Some have pencil whipped and rubber stamped their way to their AFFI ticket. Most of those instructors are afraid to freearm their students even on a level three (they should be free arming from level one).

I may be short on AFFI's at my DZ, as I only have 3 right now, but if I thought they couldn't handle a single JM slot, they wouldn't be AFFI's at my DZ to begin with. I am truly blessed with instructor skills at SDA.

I am glad your instructors are so good, in fact perfect. Just kidding.

Since you replied to my post saying I thought two instructors was a good idea for the first let go skydive, and you said some instructors were pencil whipped, then said those without skills are fearful to let go, I kind of feel that you might think I am fearful or without skills.... I don't think I was pencil whipped, I had AT LEAST one spin stop and one roll over per eval jump, and I trained on AFF specific skills for a solid hour of dedicated tunnel time (I had probably 100 training roll overs and 100 training spin stops in the tunnel before having to do it in the sky on my evals and pre-eval training jumps). And I still believe, per the reasons I said before, that two instructors is not such a bad thing on the first let go jump, especially if the student is expected to do nothing except fall straight down, and ESPECIALLY if this is the first time the student has a new location/method for the pull as in the switch from tandem to student equipment in the progression.

The jump can go to shit quickly - and having two instructors is not a bad thing - especially when they work as a team. The student might panic and try to pull in the wrong spot/way since this is the first time they have worn the gear - and if the one instructor ended up on the wrong side after a spin stop, he can't help. That is where having two instructors would be helpful - allowing roll reversals without the fear of being on the wrong side to assist.

It might take years for it to happen to a good instructor, but still... I have had to pull for students on level 3 when they couldn't find it and panicked and did not allow me to help - and that was after they had done it themselves on 1 and 2. Lots of new stuff you are adding...

I would be comfortable in your progression if the first non-tandem jump was a single instructor hold on dive, because the jump could be dedicated to the feeling of flying without the drogue and dedicated to practice pulls... I would gladly freearm it, and even let go for short periods if the student earned it... But making it a let go planned jump is where I would be worried...

If your progression has the student doing their first non-tandem jump as the 4th jump, and this is a let go dive, I would want to see some seriously good practice touches before letting go... And this means the student is spending 1/2 the skydive doing the touches/COA - leaving just a little let go time... It would worry me, because I know I am not perfect, and no instructor/skydiver I ever have jumped with was either... Having a student "feel" solo freefall starting late in the jump after a few practice touches - means the working time is short - and I have seen some students get tense a few seconds after being let go and take a perfectly stable jump to crap, because they get nervous: "Oh my god, they let go, I am on my own."

Please let us know how it goes! I never have actually done your progression or known people who have, but I hope it goes well and my fears are chalked up to being overly cautious. I seriously hope it goes well, because we need variety and creative teaching methods.

[StevieBoy 0]

"Pros:
The idea of getting the "deer-in-the-headlights" sensory overload out of the way before doing AFF Level 1 is very good."

You think.

Because of my AFF1 "deer-in-the-headlights" fuck up, my altitude awareness is second to none.

Thats what I saved for, and I payed for.

Steve

it deosn't mttaer waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Tandem #1 (Arch, reading the altimeter, PRCP, & canopy control).
Tandem #2 (Same as above with leg drills and actual pull).
Tandem #3 (Same as above with turns).
Then full AFF FJC & one AFFI Level 3 release dive.

Any reason to not let them pull on T1?

Quote

I do realize some AFFI's out there shudder on release dives with two JM's

Not shudder, I just realize that shit can go bad really quickly and two people have a better chance of catching a screwed up student than one...And even more important can PREVENT a bad situation.

I have taken AFF students out of a plane that have about an hour of tunnel time on them, a good bit with me. But once in freefall, they realize they are in freefall and not the tunnel....Weird shit started to happen.

In the end,a properly briefed and drilled student should not even need an instructor with them, think Airforce Academy FF training....But I think we all agree that at least one should be there....And some think two is *better* for the first release.

Having been on AFF L3's where a great level 2 student didn't act like the student they were 40 min ago...Well, I was glad that I had backup...Didn't NEED it, but glad it was there.

In the end it is your DZ and your call....And my opinion is worth less than the time it took to write this really....But I see nothing but a safety benefit to the *student* to have two AFF I's. And the only benefit I can really see is that you save an AFF I slot, since you have few AFF I's.

So it is a balance of safety vs. efficiency. IMO safety wins any tie.

Let us know how it works for you. Good, or bad.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[psychoswooper 2]

We have been doing Tandem/IAF progression at our DZ for about 10 years now. We still offer AFF for those that really want it. But we try to encourage Tandem Prog. because our experience has been that it works better & produces more relaxed students.

Our 3 Tandems are silmilar to what you listed. However our 1st non-Tandem is a no-release dive. (Basically a 1 I AFF level 1) This allows the I to access the students fall-rate prior to release. Also the students are very relaxed because there is nothing new during freefall. Actually most students are anxious about flying the parachute alone & not-at-all worried about the freefall. Our AFF students are anxious about the freefall & not worried about flying the parachute. Who'da thunk??

We use BOC deployment & simulate this on Tandem by having them grab & actually throw away styrofoam balls (available at Walmart) that are the same size & placed in aprox the same location as a BOC. So there is no real transistion in deployment process.

Most common problems (Tandem leftovers) are Feet up for landing which has already been mentioned & they usually need a little "legs out" on that 1st jump off of Tandem. Other than that it's smooth sailing.

We technically require 5 IAF jumps but regularly "graduate" jumpers with 4 because they have met all the yellow card manuevers for solo jumping.

I like you have the good fortune to have extremely experienced AFF I's, but I think anybody who "earned" their rating should have no problem with this program.

PS: We try our best to have the students 3rd Tandem be with a dual-rated Tandem /AFF I. preferably the one who will accompany them on their 1st non-tandem whenever possible.

[Psychoz 0]

The place I am going to start my AFF, requires me to do a tandem first. Just thought I would throw that in.

So long and thanks for all the fish!!!