If you can't land a tandem yourself you shoudn't be an TM.

[camamel 0]

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[mattaman 0]

NO, if you can't land a parachute by yourself, should you get a skydiving licence. Sorry to piss anyone off who does this, but I am not sure where your reasoning would be, shit can go way bad on tandems, and require alot of strenth. I suppose if you just took light gals, and really watched what you did, maybe, whats the reasoning behind this thread?

Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

[BIGUN 1,053]

Not sure what the original post was; but having tandem "catchers" grab the toggles and "kill" the canopy can help keep the stand-up landing that way.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[slotperfect 7]

Please elaborate on the subject of your post, so those who read it understand your reason for putting it here.

Arrive Safely

John

[matthewcline 0]

This is a reach, as there is no meat to post, but then why do we Examiners Teach Instructors how to land with students and all the Rigs I have seen have dual toggles?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Not sure what the original post was; but having tandem "catchers" grab the toggles and "kill" the canopy can help keep the stand-up landing that way.

if this is some argument against tandem catchers, I have to disagree. My first jump had a perfect one step soft landing - like walking down a staircase - and then the TI and I ran like a 4 legged spider for well over 100 ft (yards?) trying to keep from being dragged away by the wind. Could easily have been a bad bruise or worse falling over each other.

[slotperfect 7]

When you post vague content like this, the thread will more than likely take another direction because those who replied did their best to interpret the crux of the subject matter but got it wrong.

If you are looking for some intelligent conversation on the subject, please elaborate. Surely you didn't post this as an intriductory statement to a stirring hornet's nest?

Arrive Safely

John

[JohnRich 4]

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When you post vague content like this, the thread will more than likely take another direction because those who replied did their best to interpret the crux of the subject matter but got it wrong.

Yep. He could be talking about the use of tandem catchers, or maybe the use of dual toggles where the student helps flair. Who knows? Who cares? If he doesn't care enough to take a sentence or two to explain himself, then he no longer gets to choose.

[slotperfect 7]

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Who knows? Who cares? If he doesn't care enough to take a sentence or two to explain himself, then he no longer gets to choose.

I care. That's why I asked him to clarify his reason for posting. On the other hand, it's not your thread (or mine) to simply dismiss due to lack of input and turn it into anything we please.

Please keep the conversation as close to the intended subject - albeit vague.

Arrive Safely

John

[Schoenauer 0]

Let my try to find the needle in the hay stack.

Yes, if a tandem instructor is constantly hurting a student on their landing, then the tandem instructor should not be doing tandems. I would also say this applies to AFF, SL, and IAD instructors who use radio, arrows or other methods to add a students landing.

Memento Mori

[JJohnson 0]

Do you mean without the benefit of a canopy?

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[diablopilot 2]

Your post is unclear as to intent or question, but I will suggest that a TI who is unable to conduct a Tandem Skydive safely without the assistance of the student should re-evaluate their ability.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[rhys 0]

I think he is maybe talking about sharing the flare with the stundent to make the force required less.

I was reading a women tandem masters thread that mentioned this prctice for smaler woman.

that was the impression i got from the title. the subject has been discussed before personally i dont think it is a very good idea unless the t/m is injured etc.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[JohnMitchell 14]

OK, my 2 cents. I have all of my students help land the canopy. It's good training, it's fun, and if they mess up I can over ride their imputs. My landings seem to be on par with the other TM's at my DZ. In the case of a passed out or incapacitated student, I can certainly flare the canopy myself and even kick their feet up as we land so we slide in nicely. I agree that you should be able to flare it yourself, though. That's where the Icarus 365 has made my life much easier. God, I can still remember the toggle pressure on the old 500.

[camamel 0]

Oups
Sorry not to be clear and late. DZ.com is a great site but I am not on it each week. My point was: with new high performance tandem main is it wise to let a tandem master having his passenger helping him on final and landing. I am jumping 370 Sigma main toggles pressure is a bit on the hard side specially with a huge passenger and on the other side it is a high performance canopy.
To be more specific: Would you let your mom, or girl friend jumping that kind of canopy with an instructor not strong enough to flare by himself so he need her help to assist him for the landing.

I hope that will repair all the mess I did

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[AggieDave 6]

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I am jumping 370 Sigma main toggles pressure is a bit on the hard side specially with a huge passenger

Am I the only TI out there that think Sigma 370's toggle pressure isn't bad at all and definately not "on the hard side."

I would agree with you, though, that a TI should be able to fly the canopy completely by his/her self. I would venture as far as to say that the TI should be able to rear riser turn the canopy as well. There are instances in which that is crucial for a quick movement after opening due to a traffic conflict. Sure, there should never be a canopy traffic conflict with a tandem, BUT in reality it does happen.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[camamel 0]

Thank's

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[bob.dino 0]

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I am jumping 370 Sigma main toggles pressure is a bit on the hard side specially with a huge passenger

Am I the only TI out there that think Sigma 370's toggle pressure isn't bad at all and definately not "on the hard side."

It's probably worth pointing out that you're not exactly of average build either...

[cpoxon 0]

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Am I the only TI out there that think Sigma 370's toggle pressure isn't bad at all and definately not "on the hard side."

Thick lines or thin? I've found Sigma's with "ropes" to be quite heavy, although that may be completely unrelated. It may be down to the age of the canopy or the fact that I've come from other lighter toggle pressure canopies such as the Hop 330, but that is my impression.

In my nearly 500 tandems I have never once had a student help me with the flare, and I don't think it is necessary. I find the cultural differences odd. In the UK, I can't think of any tandem instructor who has the student assist them with the flare. We get them to help lift their legs up with their hands so that they are out of the way, enabling the instructor to get their feet down first. If you are getting your student to help you with the flare, how are you getting them to lift their legs out of the way, or do you try to do some sort of coordinated running landing?

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[AggieDave 6]

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Thick lines or thin? I've found Sigma's with "ropes" to be quite heavy, although that may be completely unrelated. It may be down to the age of the canopy or the fact that I've come from other lighter toggle pressure canopies such as the Hop 330, but that is my impression.

Thick dacron lines, I've jumped brand spanking new first jump on the canopy Sigma 370s and 1000+ jump Sigma 370s. They've all been about the same (when they were in trim).

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the fact that I've come from other lighter toggle pressure canopies such as the Hop 330

I haven't jumped the Hop 330, I'd like to jump a Hop, sounds like an interesting canopy.. I've jumped Icarus 365 and 400, A2, Sigma 370, Firebolt 389 (I think that was the size), EZ-384 and the RWS reserve.

Icarus had the lightest toggle pressure and the worst flare. I don't think its a jump numbers on the canopy thing, I've got probably around 50 jumps on Icarus tandem mains. Enough to have figured out a flare thing. The A2 had slightly higher pressure but more bottom end. Sigma had just a bit higher then that with a LOT more bottom end. The EZ has just a bit higher pressure then the Sigma with similar bottom end (not quite what the Sigma has). The RWS reserve comes in last for toggle pressure. Its enough that you notice, but not so hard that its unflyable. The Firebolt...well, lets just say I'd rather jump any of those other canopies LONG before I put another jump on a Firebolt.

That brings up a point. If you can't land a Sigma or similar tandem main by yourself, good freak'n luck with the reserve. The reserve doesn't have flying/flaring toggle pairs and it doesn't have dual toggles for the student. The toggle pressure is significantly higher too.

Eitherway, typically the only time I have a student help me flare is when they're doing a Cat A/B and that's the major point of doing those jumps. To really teach hands on canopy control.

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If you are getting your student to help you with the flare, how are you getting them to lift their legs out of the way, or do you try to do some sort of coordinated running landing?

I have the student put their feet and knees together, then bend them up slightly and put their feet forward slightly. Sort of like sitting on a tall stool. As we/I begin the flare I rock my hips forward and push my thighs under their legs. That keeps their legs off the ground. If they start to drop them, a quick kick to the back of their calves usually does the trick.

There's only been 1 tandem student I've had that I've made them hold their legs up. Then again, her physical ability and conditioning was such that this was probably the first thing she's done that didn't involve a couch or McDonalds in quite a few years.

Obviously, YMMV, this is just what I've experinced over the past few years of doing tandems.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohnMitchell 14]

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If you are getting your student to help you with the flare, how are you getting them to lift their legs out of the way, or do you try to do some sort of coordinated running landing?

First I make them walk and chew gum at the same time. Passing that tough coordination test, I know they have the Right Stuff to both lift their legs and flare at the same time.

Seriously, I have them practice once or twice up high.
-Hands up
-Feet up
-Ready, set, half brakes
-Flare

It's really very easy to do, and I hear many of them telling their friends "Well, I got to land the parachute, too!" I feel it's in the same vein as letting them pull the drogue release. Are you teaching them to skydive, hopefully, or just giving a carnival ride? And out of about 1000 tandems, I've never had a student hurt me by screwing up with the toggles on landing.

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[cpoxon 0]

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First I make them walk and chew gum at the same time. Passing that tough coordination test, I know they have the Right Stuff to both lift their legs and flare at the same time.

Wow! You get a lot of those? :-P

Ok, so I could have explained it a bit further! What I should have asked is does assisting with the flare provide a couteracting effect that helps them lift their legs? It seems to me that students (who don't help with the flare) suspended in a harness (unless it's a more modern design with different geomtery like a Sigma harness) can have trouble elevating their legs high enough and it help if they grab the sides of their legs or under their knees to lift them up.

If a student's feet are lower than yours and you have any forward speed on landing that can lead to their legs being dragged underneath you.

I did a Google Image search for the phrase tandem landing to find some examples. There are good and bad ones, Here's an example of a student helping to flare with their legs lower than the instructors (although from the the look the swing of the pair it looks like it will end up fine), and here's one of a student lifting their legs up

I don't know, it seems to me like the landing is one of the most critical parts of the tandem and at that point, I want their arms and legs out of the way. We don't do tandem progression jumps in the UK, but if we did I'd probably get the student to help flare. An instructor maybe able to override a student's input most of the times, but what happens when they can't?

Oh, and letting the student pull the drogue release is really uncommon in the UK (and we don't give them an alti either, because they won't be pulling).

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[matthewcline 0]

The dog saying "Hi" to the T-I is classic!
Sniff Sniff "Hi, Dad!"
Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[marks2065 0]

IMO you should be able to handle any part of the jump with the student helping / not helping / passed out / or awake. if you can't handle all aspects of the jump either learn how or quit. the only thing you can count on is the student will do whatever they are doing all the way to the ground. if you want to make your job easier train the student better. this tandem factory &*it pisses me off. teach the student and work with them all the way down to the landing helps keep them from panicing by giving them something to do and also gives them more satisfation about the jump. this also helps you control the jump easier with less energy wich keeps you fresher for the end of the day jumps when you might need the strength if you do have a bad student. i landed 95% of my tandems with the student helping and the rest by myself with no broken students. i rarely see the student helping now and i feel they were robbed of the best part of the skydive - the sense of stisfaction of doing it - remember you are a tandem instructor not an amusement park ride operator

[camamel 0]

I agree with you it is a good thing to have the tandem passenger involve as much as possible in his jump. Personnaly my passenger have the controls in their hands all the way until 1000 feet if they want to, after that they take their harness back.. Then I told them what I expect from them for the landing. 30 sec later this is history.
Of course you can find ways to have a student helping or assisting you for the landing. This is what I did for my first 1000 or so tandems and I never hurt anybody doing so.
As good as you can be on teaching your student on how to do it ,you will eventually end up with a landing that is not as good as if you were doing it yourself.
That same landing with today high performance main tandem canopy can end up with a lot of injury.
There is a huge difference in performance between tandems mains those days.
Same way a pilot can give a yoke to a passenger in flight he will never do that on take off or landing.

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.