riggerrob 558 #1 March 20, 2006 Certified AFF or PFF instructors only: what is your favorite configuration for doing 2 on 1 exits form King Airs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #2 March 20, 2006 RHS inside. LHS rear float. Our System doesn't use "Main" and "Reserve" instructors. Both instructors are equaly skilled and capable of doing both sides, hence they are refered to by the side of the student they're on. Naming instructors after the handles on the side is often not clear. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #3 March 20, 2006 Interesting theory, it sounds like the difference is semantics. While most schools use the terms "Main Side" and "Reserve Side" the USPA rating method trains not only for an instructor to be able to complete both functions, but to be able to switch mid jump as situation requires.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #4 March 20, 2006 Quotethe USPA rating method trains not only for an instructor to be able to complete both functions, but to be able to switch mid jump as situation requires. Same here. (I was once rated as a USPA AFF Instructor, but finding a S & TA to sign you off as current in Africa is tricky..) The difference is the student. We had a few issues where the "Reserve side" instructor was the one taking the student on past L3 onto solo levels and the student thought they were being short changed and wanted the "Main" dude. Also, if the instructor is named for the handles - then where is the breakaway or cutaway instructor? But yes. It is semantics. I detest LHS or RHS or Mainside or reserve side "Specialists." I like to work with AFF Instructors. Sides don't matter to me. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #5 March 20, 2006 Sorry guys, I never meant to open a debate on semantics. I don't care whether you call your instructors"main, reserve, left, right, primary, secondary or Phil." Let's return to the original question about where the "reserve, left, secondary, etc." instructor is just before exiting a King Air with an AFF/PFF/AFP, etc. student. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #6 March 20, 2006 At Byron we have a front float peg and a rear float peg. Reserve side JM is front float and Main side is rear float. Student is center. After a check right and check left, the front float can lean back and offer some prop blast to the student and allow them to look at the prop. Front float needs to get a good launch off the plane to allow the student clean air. If they leave late, they hose the student. I'll even cheat it sometimes. We have the student trail their left leg. I'll put my right leg between the student leg. Lean out after the check in from student. Then as the student peels towards the prop blast, I can actually arch and encourage my student to arch by using my hand and hip. I've done the exit with one JM inside and the student facing the prop blast in the door. These jumps were less sucessfull than the three out. The tendency was for the student to not get into an arch position quickly enough. I only have around 700 AFF jumps. About half are from King Airs. Lots of C206, Caravans, a few tail gates and some Otters. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dsbbreck 0 #7 March 20, 2006 Main side - Inside Reserve side - Rear Float. Student outside facing the prop with hips against the fuselage.David "Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #8 March 20, 2006 QuoteCertified AFF or PFF instructors only: what is your favorite configuration for doing 2 on 1 exits form King Airs? Having done many AFF exits from a King Air/Queen Air, with all three outside, the reserve has to be on their game during exit or they will funnel the exit everytime. Also, some of the reserve side instructors I have had sometimes have never even made it back to their slot on the reserve side of my student for the entire skydive! The exit using the reserve side rear float, student squatting facing the line of flight, and the mainside gripping the student from inside the plane seems to be a good exit, but also causes the student to get rotated to the line of flight as the main side exits. Not that it's a bad thing, but when they are getting to do solo exits it's easier for them to be stable while watching the plane fly away and having their chest into the relative wind, and they can get used to this if they can also see it when they exit with 2 instructors hanging on IMO. These days, I do not ever use a reserve side with the my students in the program I teach. I guess I've found that using a reserve side is more trouble then they are worth, and I prefer to handle the student on my own, also giving them a choice of what exit they'd like to do. I show them both inside and outside exits and let them choose the one that makes them feel more comfortable. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MightyMouse 0 #9 March 21, 2006 We use JM1 and JM2 to describe positions - each is as "capable as the other, JM1 is "Main" side & JM2 is "Reserve" side Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daniel_owen_uk 0 #10 March 21, 2006 QuoteWe use JM1 and JM2 to describe positions - each is as "capable as the other, JM1 is "Main" side & JM2 is "Reserve" side What is the point of calling it JM1 and JM2, if you then have to describe which side is which? (obviously I am not an instructor, just wondering)__________________ BOOM Headshot Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #11 March 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteWe use JM1 and JM2 to describe positions - each is as "capable as the other, JM1 is "Main" side & JM2 is "Reserve" side What is the point of calling it JM1 and JM2, if you then have to describe which side is which? (obviously I am not an instructor, just wondering) I think he was providing translations for those not familiar with JM1 & 2 terminology. I rather doubt they say "JM1-which-is-Main-side" every time . edit: Actually, having checked his profile, I'm damn sure they don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #12 March 22, 2006 Had the same issue from students here. "I WANT NUMBER ONE!" "I WANT THE MAIN GUY!" Left and right seems to work nicely for us, especially if we switch every level. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #13 March 22, 2006 QuoteI've done the exit with one JM inside and the student facing the prop blast in the door. These jumps were less sucessfull than the three out. The tendency was for the student to not get into an arch position quickly enough. That's interesting because we experienced the opposite. We have been more successful keeping control of the student with the side door exit (one jm in one jm out). jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #14 March 22, 2006 What kind of KA do you have? How wide is the door. Also if you do an exit 300 times, you get good at it. How does your student stand in the door? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheDonMan 0 #15 March 22, 2006 The door in a king air is not very wide but it is tall. A student stands in the door with one hand on the outside and the other on the inside. (sandwiches the side of the plane.) the student can stand up easily because of the rounded sides. left leg trails in the wind the other on the planes step or door. Hips forward and they are in the perfect position for free fall. the belly is already in the relative wind. they check inside the plane then look behind them. Popeller, up (on the toe), down, ARCH, ARCH, ARCH The world is full of willing people, some willing to work, the rest willing to let them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #16 March 22, 2006 I'll have to try that on a fun jump with a couple of other instructors. All of the 2 out, 1 in exits I've done have had the student in a crouched position. Yuck. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #17 March 22, 2006 Quote Also if you do an exit 300 times, you get good at it. Wow. Talk about modesty... Even so, if it takes time to get good at that exit and it may be easier another way, why do it the way that you can only be good at by doing it 300 times? Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #18 March 22, 2006 I just meant that maybe I find it easier, because I've done that particular exit the most. So perhaps it just seems easy to me. I don't think it takes time to get good at that exit. Just knowing good technique. Same for any exit. Did I come across as cocky? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #19 March 23, 2006 No worries. It sounded that way to me, but your clarification helps. Peace. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shyandinnocent 0 #20 March 23, 2006 Quote Having done many AFF exits from a King Air/Queen Air, with all three outside, the reserve has to be on their game during exit or they will funnel the exit everytime. Also, some of the reserve side instructors I have had sometimes have never even made it back to their slot on the reserve side of my student for the entire skydive! Please excuse me for getting into this discussion, as I am a brand new instructor. As I just did my instructor training, I remember this well: we were taught to never have the instructor(s) exit from the outside, no matter how good a hold of them you think you have, as you risk the situation of the student refusing as they're supposed to let go, an you loose them. Now you are alone in freefall, and you have a freaked student stuck in the door, and maybe no-one inside to help them back inside. I have never jumped a King Air, so maybe with that door both JM's outside makes sense, I don't know. If it is just a matter of the door being small, I don't quite see the excuse of risking the above mentioned situation, just because you can't dive out a small door with a student. But then again I AM only new. We jump a Cresco at my DZ, is the King Air door very different? Is King Air high wing or low wing? It's never too late for a low turn! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #21 March 23, 2006 King Air B90... My vote would be for main-side instructor inside, reserve-side float. But I'm not an AFF-I (yet) so I didn't vote. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #22 March 23, 2006 QuotePlease excuse me for getting into this discussion, as I am a brand new instructor. No worries. Quotewe were taught to never have the instructor(s) exit from the outside, no matter how good a hold of them you think you have, as you risk the situation of the student refusing as they're supposed to let go, an you loose them. Over the years, some DZ's you work at have may have a particular AFF style exit they require you to do, as well as tandem exits they want you to do. It may not be the exit style you prefer, but you are working at their DZ, adapt. Some evaluators teach differently then others. During my rating course years ago, we used just about every exit technique you could think of. Some proved to be easier then others, but having the skills to be able to pull the exit off was something you had to do to pass the course then. The evaluator explained to you the type of plane you were going to be using and the exit he want to see you do. Also, alot of the I/E's during the course had quite a few different things they wanted to see you doing on the skydive that varied from the other I/E's in the same course. IMO things have gotten alot more narrowed down these days as to what an I/E wants to see during the course, and most of the course are run by only one I/E, which is now a good thing because you do not have to pick the brain of every I/E that you may get during your course like we did years ago, Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #23 March 23, 2006 QuoteWhat kind of KA do you have? How wide is the door. Also if you do an exit 300 times, you get good at it. How does your student stand in the door? Mullins Kingair DontheMan described the exit. Kinda like an otter but easier since the bar is on the outside. We use a the same type exit out of the 195 Cessna. We originally tried something else but it was nearly impossible for the reserve side JM to stay on. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #24 March 23, 2006 QuoteI just meant that maybe I find it easier, because I've done that particular exit the most. So perhaps it just seems easy to me yep, usually the case. Quote don't think it takes time to get good at that exit. Just knowing good technique. Same for any exit. and doing it alot helps with techniques. I was fortunate to have Rick Horn and a AFF Course Director and he gave us tons of "hot tips". QuoteDid I come across as cocky? No, at least I didn't think so. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #25 March 23, 2006 QuoteWe jump a Cresco at my DZ... Very few folk in the USA will know what a Cresco is! It's the smaller, older sister of the 750XL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
