Peej 0 #1 February 23, 2006 After reading tonto's thread about his AFF student "doing a Branson" and pulling the cutaway handle this last weekend I'm curious... I'm a firm believer in the "in air communication systems" as a freefly coaching aid, do you think they have any applications in the AFF environment? Are any of AFFI's using them? And do you think a system like this would have helped the same dude? Would being able to tell him that he was reaching for the wrong handle in freefall have helped or would it have confused him further? All opinions welcome Thanks edited to add: Ok, so after refining my search technique i came across this post. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1516801;search_string=In%20air%20communication%20and%20AFF;#1516801 That answers a lot but i'd still like to hear more of your thoughts. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 February 23, 2006 I've spent a decent amount of time on a radio talking down students under canopy with an AFFI looking over my shoulder. I assume you've done the same or you've been around an AFFI doing the same before right? How many students have you seen actually do exactly what was told over the radio? About half? The body's response to an adreniline dump like your first few jumps includes tunnel vision, time lapse (fast or slow), hearing goes, as well as a few other things. That's why you see videos of students staring into nothing not responding to hand signals, rolling everywhere while the AFFI's fix the situation and keep them "stable" while still tossing out a hand signal like "arch." Then when the student gets down they go "man that was over too quick, it was awesome, we were stable the entire time, my body position was great..." etc. That's also why organizations like the military or similar high stress response jobs spend so much time training. When you reach a fight/flight situation, your mind can basically blank out and you revert to your training without even thinking about it. I'm not saying that its not a good idea, just that it would be wasted on many people, so the expense and complication it adds to the situation may not be worth it.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #3 February 23, 2006 Thanks for your answer Dave. To answer your question, i've spent zero time around AFFI's and ground radios as we don't use them at my home DZ. Instead we have a JM with a set of coloured paddles who stands out in the landing area and students are trained to go through the opening, identify a good canopy, do their controlability checks and then fly toward the dz. They then look for the JM on the ground, he waves the paddles and as soon as the student sees him they kick their legs. The student is then brought on the paddles, ie. arms up, full drive, arms half way down, half breaks, etc. I have done some coaching with Alchemy on an in air communication system though and it worked brilliantly. Of course at the time i had 200 jumps and was aware of what was going on around me in the sky. (I definately plan on buying one of the systems for freefly coaching further down the road.) When i made the post i had the feeling that AFF would not be the ideal application for the system but wondered if anyone had tried it. Cheers PJ Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 February 23, 2006 Well, I think there might be a use for them with coach students, I know I could have used it more then a few times. Those times I was able to get away with exagerated gesters and such to convey my meaning in the air.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #5 February 23, 2006 As a coach, I think they would help. For the dive flow where the student isn't looking at you (tracking), immediate feedback to the student would be great.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #6 February 23, 2006 It would be a great tool but it's not economically feasible for a dropzone to have. It could provide clearer instruction to a student over hand signals, but could easily be ignored just like hand signals get ignored. When a student is experiencing sensory overload I believe they tend to block out audible cues before visual cues, so I don't think it should ever completely replace hand signals. That being said...I have jumped on a few lvl 1's where the other instructor had in air communication set up with the student. Each time the student was able to hear and respond very well to the verbal instructions. If they were not so expensive I would love to get one to use for my students.Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #7 February 23, 2006 In my opinion.... ....if it is standard to use the radio, we'll build up a dependancy on them. If the radio fails or is hard to hear, the student will just sit there waiting for a radio command. I would rather train them for the real world situtation. Most jumpers don't jump with them on fun jumps. So coming off student status will be awkward. The new skydiver will be used to verbal communication in freefall. They'll be hit with so many new variables at once. Maybe I'm just old school. We have an "In Air" system. My husband uses it for coach jumps. I like them for that. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #8 February 23, 2006 Peej, I have used the Rare dynamics air to air system as well as one of my own that I designed for wingsuiting. I use the air to air for first flights and coach jumps and can honestly say that the learning curve goes up significantly. More information can be relayed to the student than can be given with hand signals and most people respond very well to verbal/audible instructions as there is no confussion over what the instructions are (language barriers aside). Like any skydiving gear, it is a tool that has its applications and not ALL people will benefit from its use, but most will IMO. I think AFF students would benefit greatly from its use and perhaps speed up their progress."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pincheck 0 #9 February 23, 2006 i think mike carpenter who is a member of Euphoria free fly run a school at Lillo in spain and the website say they use it ?http://www.skydivelillo.com/english/freefly.html Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,229 #10 February 24, 2006 QuoteI think AFF students would benefit greatly from its use and perhaps speed up their progress. I couldn't agree more. It would give the student the benefit of visual and audio inputs. How many AFF students have looked at the hand signal and locked up trying to remember which one that meant (even thought they drilled it 100% on the ground training). IMO; having the ability to present an "Arch Harder" hand signal with the verbal "Arch harder" would mean immediate results. In addition, I've seen students with broken lines, line-overs and even remember the video of Shana whose Instructor was hollering at her to "Pump the brakes" trying to get her to release the toggle. Instructors could tell someone in their ear, "You've got a bad canopy, cut it away," rather than "hope" they figure it out. As high as they pull, a calm smooth voice could talk them through their emergency procedures before it becomes a long situation of hope.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #11 February 24, 2006 I'm all for more tunnel time PLUS the Rare Dynamics set up. During the skydive students have too much shit to worry about and having someone yelling and pointing just adds to the chaos. I can't tell you how many times I've given the Practice Pulls signal, then taking their hand and "guiding" it to the handle, but they resist. During the several times we've dirt dived (FJC) I mention that we may give a signal, then take their right and guide it to the handle. "Don't fight it!" I tell them. They laugh and say they'd go along with it. I have a lot of video to show otherwise. On one occaision a level 2 student lost altitude awareness at the bottom end, after an altimeter signal, then a pull signal by both instructors. I was on reserve side and clearly put it infront of him, in between his altimeter and face. He moved is arm as if to "see" around my pull signal. On the ground he copped an attitude telling us we were distracting him. I said, "With what!!!? Pull signals??!!" He even fought the assist. Game over. Whether being told, signaled, whatever he still fought the assist. We're talking body position to speed up the students learning. This is greater accomplished in a wind tunnel setting. The in-air comms would benefit here, more than in an actual AFF skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #12 February 27, 2006 Thanks for your replies guys. Once i have paid off my various new cameras, one of these systems is definately on the cards, albeit a ways down the line. I aspire to an AFF rating somewhere down the line too, maybe once i have a rating and enough experience coaching with the system i may be able to integrate it. Take care PJ Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #13 March 2, 2006 I would love to use in-air coms for AFF. I doubt it's going to become "standard" anytime soon due to the expense of purchasing and maintaining the equipement, but I think it's a fantastic idea. Chuck AFF-I (among other things) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #14 March 3, 2006 Thanks for your input Chuck Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #15 March 3, 2006 All right, call me a computer dimwit... where to get one? The only place I know of (www.raredynamic.com) doesn't answer - evidently the server is down or something. .My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #16 March 3, 2006 That's the only place i know of to get one too. Sorry dude Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #17 March 6, 2006 $1147? I think I'll wait a while..... My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #18 March 6, 2006 I agree that they seem exorbitantly priced. I've already chatted to another freefly coach on my DZ and we'll probably look at sharing the cost of a system in the end. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #19 March 8, 2006 QuoteAll right, call me a computer dimwit... where to get one? Well I haven't officialy entered into it, but I am planning on making the system I built available to the public in the near future. I am estimating that it will be 50 to 60% less than what is being offered right now and have greater flexability."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #20 March 8, 2006 Well please do keep us posted Mr Campos Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #21 March 8, 2006 QuoteWell I haven't officialy entered into it, but I am planning on making the system I built available to the public in the near future. I am estimating that it will be 50 to 60% less than what is being offered right now and have greater flexability. 1. For God's sake (and yours...ok, mostly yours..) get it patented ASAP. 2. Hire me to be your agent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheDonMan 0 #22 March 10, 2006 has anyone Looked into motor cycle communicaitons. they have some units that can be attached to your belt and have a noise reduction mic. I'm planning on purchasing them to see if they actually work and the cost is only about $150. will let you all know when i get them sometime next week. The world is full of willing people, some willing to work, the rest willing to let them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #23 March 12, 2006 You guys are the pros...but I know a simple transmitter can be made easily and cheaply and a receiver even more so...I guess the high-tech and the cost is in designing the noise-reduction circuits but Jesus, how many units would you need to sell to recoup development costs on something so simple???? Not many. And with full-faced helmets I don't think noise-reduction would be needed anyway. But I really like the 2-way comm idea...but then somebody would be telling you sex jokes in freefall and you'd be laughing too hard to pull. .My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #24 March 16, 2006 I have not read the responses to this thread but my opinion is that I would love to have in air communication with my students. I saw the coolest sunglasses ever yesterday at the mall. They were Oakleys and they had headphones attached to them, very comfortable. Anyway, it is an MP3 player and holds anywhere from 60 to hundreds of songs depending on the model you buy. I was thinking how cool would that be for skydiving, except that the shades flipped up. If there was a way to have headphones connected to goggles and a mic hookup in a fullface, that would rock. Half of my students have difficulty hearing the radio and most instructors don't sound very clear when talking to students while flying their parachute. I would like to see something hit the market soon which is small, ergonomic, more technological and feasable for some of us to communicate with our students in the air and under canopy.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gandhi 0 #25 March 20, 2006 ive used it as a student with mikey carpenter of euphoria a while back, and its the tits... regarding noise cancelling not being necessary with a full face... i disagree, it may be quieter than an open face, but the sound within from wind and vibrations rattles around the inside of a full face like you couldnt believe. quote 'you are to go around... next time extend your landing gear' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites