Do your students PLF?

[jheadley 0]

Note that I am not asking if you TEACH your students to PLF, I am asking if they actually do it. When I first started teaching FJCs, I would only quickly go over PLFs, I explained their importance, what they're used for, I'd explain how to do a PLF, I'd demonstrate a PLF, I'd have them do one. If they did it well, I figured that'd be the end of it. I always tell a first jump student to PLF on landing, not to try to stand it up, and definitely not to try to butt slide it. I then kept noticing that when the students actually landed, they would ALWAYS pick their feet up and land on their ass.

I figured it must have been my fault for not teaching them well enough. So each FJC I taught after that, I spent more and more time on PLFs. I made them keep practicing them over and over, and kept telling them how important it is. I kept telling them all the people I've known and seen personally who have broken bones because they didn't PLF when they should have, but still, the same thing, just landing on their ass. This is extremely frustrating for me, I don't know if it's my fault for not being a good enough teacher, or if this is just the normal thing for students to do.

I think one of the problems might be that my dropzone requires 2 tandems before AFF, and on both tandems, they are told to butt slide the landing, so they might just have that stuck in their mind.

[flynskydive 0]

Yes we teach it, do they always do it...nope. Often, probably not, occasionally, perhaps the smart ones do. Rarely, most likely. The way I figure it, students see the ground coming up and that's all they're thinkin....here comes the ground. Perhaps if the radio operator mentioned to prepare for a PLF it might come back to them, but other than ground prep, PLFing is rarely mentioned afterwards. I feel like they just try to get out of the way of the inevitable ground making contact with their body... my 2 cents...

USPA Strong T-I, AFF-I, Coach, Videographer/photographer.

[jheadley 0]

Everyone who is talked down on radio, the last thing they hear before the flare command is "Feet and knees together, prepare to PLF", rarely do they even put their feet and knees together, even. I think it might have something to do with that phenomenon where the student says the radio cut out on them.

[velvetjo 0]

PLF is the student's standard position for crosswind landings at our DZ. Because of the shape of the landing area, they get a decent amount of practice landing crosswind. My understanding is that the DZ policy is at least one good PLF landing during the student program to get signed off. It's nowhere near the equivalent of some quality time on the SLT at Ft. Benning, but it's a start.

Not teaching and/or evaluating PLF's in any student program is short-changing the student. This is a true survival skill that doesn't get as much attention as it deserves.

Lance

[Trae 1]

in reply to "on both tandems, they are told to butt slide the landing,"
................

Remind me to not let my granny do a tandem there

Seriously though teaching butt slides is on the edge of stupid. I think it seeps into student landings through the primacy in learning theory.

If the student is taught to definitely fall over (ie do a PLF ) and only stand up if it's unavoidable sometimes you can get through to them.

Another issue with non PLF student landings is the tendency for the flare to be too powerful resulting in an atitude from which a PLF is not so natural or easy to do. The swing forward on flare can make a sideways or backwards PLF necessary.

When jumping round parachutes ( where the PLF was developed ) it was an absolutely necessary skill.
Now some people get by without ever doing them but when/if they really need a PLF they don't have a natural instinct to do one.

This can result in them seriously injuring themselves from a landing from which a PLF could have saved them.

Even old people with relatively fragile bones can survive semi-nasty landings unhurt if they perform a good PLF.

APLF is after all about spreading the landing shock over as large a % of the body as possible and converting vertical descent into horizontal movement.

Butt slides just don't do this consistently ...unless you have a humungous butt of course.

[Liemberg 0]

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teaching butt slides is on the edge of stupid. I think it seeps into student landings through the primacy in learning theory.

OK - fine, but if before the next tandem briefing I spend half an hour on teaching my tandemstudent a good PLF and on landing shout "PLF" - what do you think the results would be?

And - if all students that did prior tandems were the innocent victim of "muscle memory" teached wrongly by their tandeminstructors, how come they flare at all? Mine ought to be making 'no flare landings' with their hands grabbing at the side of their knees, pulling their legs up, if what you say is true...

Butt slides do happen with solo students that forget / ignore their solo training.

It would be smarter if they didn't do that.

I resent the idea that I teached them and that I am therefore responsible somehow for the grim result of wrongly executed ones.

And your grandma would be better of on a no wind day with a tandemmaster sliding it in in the tall gras than trying to stand it up / run it out with 95 kg of tandemmaster at her back...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Trae 1]

in reply to "I resent the idea that I teached them and that I am therefore responsible somehow for the grim result of wrongly executed ones. "
....................

So don't take it personally if you don't want to resent it. It's only my opinion and I have been known to be wrong.

in reply to "And your grandma would be better of on a no wind day with a tandemmaster sliding it in in the tall gras than trying to stand it up / run it out with 95 kg of tandemmaster at her back...'"
.....................

You're probably right. but two undesirable options to my way of thinking.

Just a question but have you ever done a tandem PLF?

This is a much better option (in my opinion ) than butt sliding or trying to run with some-one strapped to your front. It might not look fancy and it does dirty up those pretty jumpsuits but it is nice and safe and effective.
The rigs can also take a smear or two but would you prefer to get dirty and stay unhurt or get hurt but look stylish.

I agree that trying to run out a fast tandem landing is usually counter-productive. If your landing area is nice and smooth then perhaps a butt slide is better ....for you .
My strong feeling is that all skydivers should be more prepared to fall over (ie perform a PLF ) on every landing. Who cares if it looks funny ...it's definitely safer.

When performing a tandem PLF you will usually end up sliding on your side a bit or you may roll over onto your back depending on the speed . Either way the passenger is protected and it's you who's controlling the fall.

If your tandem canopy is a high performance job and you only jump in suitable conditions then PLF's may be a very rare necessity.

[Liemberg 0]

I agree with you on the necessity of PLF being in the 'bag of tricks' for every solo skydiver.
'In synch' rolling with a non-trained person while we are attached at the shoulders doesn't appeal to me though... To many variables.
I prefer the 'fly the canopy all the way to the ground & carefully select canopy / landing area / weather conditions' approach.If I already made a mistake there, i might try and save the day with some last instance sideways rolling/sliding, while my student is stil trying to keep his feet away from the ground as long as possible.
Haven't done that in several years and I do not mention it as a 'technique' when briefing tandemstudents for landings.

So, all that doesn't do students any good when they come away from the tandem experience with the feeling they don't have to pay attention during the landing part of solo training for student canopies, since they 'already know how to land'.

I tell them it's a different ball game.
It's up to them if they believe me or not.

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would you prefer to get dirty and stay unhurt or get hurt but look stylish.

People that get hurt don't look stylish - whatever color coordinated equipment they are wearing... So there's no real comparison.

My choice would therefore be "don't get hurt and keep looking stylish"

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[kelpdiver 2]

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Another issue with non PLF student landings is the tendency for the flare to be too powerful resulting in an atitude from which a PLF is not so natural or easy to do. The swing forward on flare can make a sideways or backwards PLF necessary.

Most of my early AFF landings were like this. My feet touched down, relatively softly into a headwind, but too far in front of my CG, and I sat down.

Did PLF the first one nicely, after flaring about 2' too high.

[timuuu 0]

How many tandems do you have, and how many have you PLF'd?

Just curious. Seems crazy to plan to PLF a tandem. Sounds like a good way to break ankles!

[Steeler 0]

In my FJC we were told to PLF no matter what. I had planned on it but the radio guy said stand it up, so I stood it up.
On another note, I hear a lot saying they tell their students over radio to "prepare tp PLF" or "prepare to flare".
I realize that my opinion doesnt mean squat, but on my 2nd jump the radio guy yelled "prepare to flare" at about 20 ft. Guess what I heard. "FLARE FLARE". OUCH! That PLF helped though!!. Maybe its not a good idea to use the word "prepare" close to the ground. I think "get ready to flare " would be more appropriate considering you have toggle happy students that are ready to snatch them in a split second.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "How many tandems do you have, and how many have you PLF'd?

Just curious. Seems crazy to plan to PLF a tandem. Sounds like a good way to break ankles!

...........................

Low 800's . probably PLF'd 50 maybe less??
All were large passengers (some very large ) in nil to low winds. Not a broken ankle, bone or injury.Most of these were on crappy porous canopies but them's the breaks.

The thing with PLF's is that you've got to do them well for them to work otherwise it's just a crash landing.
I find it relatively easy to control the passenger and go with the flow of the landing .
By insisting on feet up knees bent (practising under canopy helps of course) the passenger usually makes it easy. The trick is to touch down first and control the direction of fall.
Most of the time no PLF is needed.

I even butt slide occassionally but don't like it cause on rough ground you end up doing your tailbone like most butt-sliders I've known.

[popsjumper 2]

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...When jumping round parachutes ( where the PLF was developed ) it was an absolutely necessary skill.
Now some people get by without ever doing them but when/if they really need a PLF they don't have a natural instinct to do one...

True, Trae - oh how very true.
A word from an old fart who learned in the 70s that a good forward, backward and/or sideways PLF is a bone-saving skill:

I believe students should ALL be taught and graded on PLF skills. Too many bones have been snapped because of a lack of understanding, practice and implementation of PLF skills.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[NWFlyer 2]

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I believe students should ALL be taught and graded on PLF skills. Too many bones have been snapped because of a lack of understanding, practice and implementation of PLF skills.

I agree. I know that in my FJC we had to PLF into the peas off the steps that we roll up to the plane, so it was a decent jump/fall. I recall having to do it multiple times till we could demonstrate we got it right. However, it's probably one of those things that can and should be emphasized more throughout training.

I was tickled when the first thing Scott Miller made us do in his class was hop off a bench and PLF (and he even does one to demonstrate, lest we think he's not willing to do one himself). He said most people haven't practiced one since their FJC. I thought it was great (and it helped wake me up at 8:30 )

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[monkycndo 0]

I worked hard on my landing skills and didn't have to PLF that much as a student. Now that one of our instructors who teaches the FJC has a bad ankle, he asks one of the coaches to demonstrate a PLF to the students. I tend to be around a lot so I have been getting plenty of practice. I realized I needed it. New students seem to think the only good landing is one that is stood up. I think PLF training with continuing practice should be emphasized so getting a little dirty replaces getting a little broken.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[juggalo 1]

what license orginaztion is freed?
brew

waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area

[juggalo 1]

Like I've asked the rest
WHO are YOU really?? Come on C 999999
If thats your're number then its b!@#$#$#@@%
like your posts
Brew

waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area

[juggalo 1]

well I would not jump there if my life depended on it. DZO there is!@###$%^%$
brew

waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area

[juggalo 1]

B 7 ?????????????????
who are you
brew

waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area

[dontbounce 0]

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The way I figure it, students see the ground coming up and that's all they're thinkin....here comes the ground.

yep... See, not everybody forgets what its like to be new...

Landing #1 was hard, in the dirt. Almost broke my wrist (hands out to catch myself) and got a mouthful of dirt (and I got a tubleweed tangled in my canopy)

Landing #2 was in the grass. Nice and soft on my ass. A big improvement if you ask me...

Landing #3.. Well Ill let you know. It's tomorrow.

Cheers, you crusty old dogs...

[riggerrob 558]

The underlying problem with teaching PLFs is that it goes against basic instincts/previous learning: putting a hand out, etc.

You need two or three weeks of steady practice to DRILL PLFs into students.
Even after the Canadian Army Parachute Center devoted two weeks to slamming us into PLF practice matts, I doubt if half the guys on my military first jump course did PLFs.

The best you can hope for with civilian solo students is for them to press their legs together and flop over to the side.

That is why - when I am on the radio - I remind students two or three times "feet and knees together, hands up, eyes on the horizon, etc."

My advice -over the radio - only registers on some students, but it does reduce injuries.

It also gives the school an alibi - after the fact - that the primary reason the student hurt himself was that he ignored instructions and spread his feet before landing. I will admit that is a lame excuse, but it keeps the worst ambulance-chasing lawyers off our backs.

[Pancake 0]

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I hear a lot saying they tell their students over radio to "prepare tp PLF" or "prepare to flare".
... radio guy yelled "prepare to flare" at about 20 ft. Guess what I heard. "FLARE FLARE". OUCH! That PLF helped though!!. Maybe its not a good idea to use the word "prepare" close to the ground. I think "get ready to flare " would be more appropriate considering you have toggle happy students that are ready to snatch them in a split second.

I would take that one step further. Don't use the word 'flare' on the radio close to the ground until you want the student to flare. Too often, the student will ONLY hear the word flare ('prepare to flare', 'get ready to flare', etc.)

Our standard is 'feet and knees to together, prepare to LAND', 'Standby', 'Three, Two, One, FLARE' Works like a charm. BTW 'Standby' is said at about 50 feet, when a first jump student often wants to begin their flare.

And yes, we train our students to PLF. Some do, some don't. Those who don't receive immediate retraining stressing the importance of the PLF.

Pancake

[michalm21 0]

Even though landing (patterns, approach) and PLF was drilled into me (so I thought), I have messed up my L3 landing, spraining my ankle.
When I recover and come back to the DZ, I will practice PLF's for at least 30mins...

Pancake - you jumped with me on a tandem 2 years ago, making it a great experience. Thanks mate!

PS
I still have to learn to flare lower...