do you give free coaching jumps to low timers?

[Canuck 0]

Not even close. Maybe it came out sounding wrong. What I mean to say is that I have priorities in skydiving. At the top of that list is revenue jumps, because I plain and simple can't afford this shit - without them, I might as well sell my rigs. Then comes the team, because, well...teams gotta train. Then if I have spare time and cash on my jump account, I'll gladly jump with anyone who wants to.

The point of the post was simply to indicate "going up with a newbie" and providing coach services are not the same. Or at least not in my experience (on both sides of the equation). So if we're going to talk about charging for a coach jump, let's make sure we are really talking about a coach jump...

Canuck

[AFFI 0]

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jumpers stopped buying beer after reserve rides, etc.

Jumpers stopped buying beer?

Jeez....

Find another DZ...

[Liemberg 0]

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Skygod says what?

Skygod says he'd like wannabee-skygod to pay since this parachuting is both addictive and expensive.

Well, I can relate to that....

Somebody who's name I forgot but who I can picture in front of me like it was yesterday, helped me rise above myself in the summer of 1984 by making me part of a pick-up-fourway that made nine points which was three times my average at the time.

Then he thanked me for the skydive...

Beyond Cool IMHO...
This year I was once again part of a pick-up load with three hard-core competitors. They forgave me funneling the exit ("Dsjees - is everything going this fast nowadays or is it just me getting old?") and helped me in the second jump establish a New Personal Record (10 points from 8500ft - small step for mankind / quantum leap for me!)

Other than that - I could pay lipservice to the virtues of "paying it forward" but in reality most of the time I'm at the DZ to earn my daily bread...

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Sticker on the wall of my office: "If idiots could fly, this place would be an airport."

My office is at an airport...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[toronto_bill 0]

We are a small dropzone. Until I got my camera there was no video.

Coaching is sometimes slot, sometimes not.

Instructing is the same. Free jump.

If someone wants to do more RW then I say 10+slot and you get video. If there isnt video for that 70.00 then the learning potential goes way down i think and it aint worth it.

I was a gung ho student so I sucked info constantly. To repay the exp guys...id give 3 hopnpops. It was appreciated.

we want to be appreciated and not be giving it away...just extra help when its needed?

But I'm sure some dog walkers makes more than me....hmmm.

Damn this sport is addictive.

[flyangel2 2]

Since I don't support myself skydiving, I like to give back to the sport.

When I was learning, there wasn't a coach program and I had to count on people that were willing to go up with me and teach me.

Now it's my turn to give back, so I don't charge. In fact, most times I even cover my slot.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Pararigger 0]

I have given many of free coaching jumps and I have done a few AFF jumps also. The FT Bragg Parachute Activity only operates with volunteers. I credit a lot of my teaching abilities to the club. I think that if you need to give something back to the sport and give free instruction is the way to go.

Have you thanked the rigger that saved your life!
IAD-I, AFF-I, Coach, MFFI566

[scrublink 0]

Before I had any ratings I would "go up with nebies for free". Now since I have ratings I let the DZ charge the going rate ($65?) and they pass my share on to me in the form of a paycheck. It may be different at club DZ's than at fully commercial ones but I never recieved anything for free when I was a student nor did I ask for anything. It takes a boat load of money to run even a small DZ so I don't have a problem with them making money. I also don't have a problem charging people for my professional services. If they want video to go with that jump they have to pony up the money for the video guy. He has to eat to.

I am not here to further anyone's life's interests at my own expense (even if it just the expense of my time). If I was that kind of person I would have joined the Peace Corps. My gear wasn't free and requires maintenance and upkeep and the airplane ride isn't free. I don't fun jump much, if at all because I don't think skydiving is worth spending money on. Thats my choice. I you want to skydive then you have to pay your money. If you want coaching or any other kind of instruction you have to pay your money. Sense a theme? I have pursued many different hobbies and have yet to find one that offered free instrution, why should skydiving be different.

Oh yeah. Stop your whining, give me your money and get on the damn airplane.

[D22369 0]

Oh yeah. Stop your whining, give me your money and get on the damn airplane.


***

I simply asked a question here, where did you see whining?

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[scrublink 0]

Missed the whole point of the last sentence. Was also a response to the thread generally as opposed to you personally. I should have made that clear.

The point of the last sentence by the way was to verify that I am one crusty and miserable bastard. And proud of it.

[aironscott 3]

Roy-
I don't think that anyone is complaining about you whining on this thread. There are a lot of people here boasting about how much *free* coaching they do. These are generally people that don't count on skydiving income to pay the rent (and they mostly have prefaced their statements with that being said).

You're poll responses here are skewed a bit because you will not get many full time instructors posting responses. Most of them don't give a crap about what is said on this web site. We get called "skygods" and "burnouts" and whatever else, from skydivers that have never made the sacrifices that it takes to be a professional skydiving instructor.
But that's a different topic....

So here are my thoughts on "free" coaching. When the day is done and I have no more paying jumps (tandem, AFF, Coaching) to do I am more than happy to do AFF, Coaching, Tandems, with people that are associated with the DZ. It could be the packers, the manifest people, the pilot, the DZO's kids, whatever. As long as it doesn't cost me any out of pocket expense or paying jumps, I'm usually in. At least as long as I haven't started drinking beer yet.

I may have totally misread you though. if you are simply asking for some free coach jumps I'm coming down this weekend. I'd thought that we'd jumped together enough already, but if you feel the need for some coaching......I'm always here for you bro - free of charge I'll even pull if you want to do a tandem
See you Saturday

aaron

“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!”

[D22369 0]

I may have totally misread you though. if you are simply asking for some free coach jumps I'm coming down this weekend. I'd thought that we'd jumped together enough already, but if you feel the need for some coaching......I'm always here for you bro - free of charge I'll even pull if you want to do a tandem
See you Saturday
***

oooo..... ouch.... 'that'l leave a mark....'

lol, thanks for making me crack up, I needed it ya dog...


in all seriousness, like you , as long as the coaching (they are all still fun to me) doesnt take money out of my pocket i go up, and in general have a great time.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[LawnDart21 0]

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If I was that kind of person I would have joined the Peace Corps

Ed, you crack me up...........lol

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The point of the last sentence by the way was to verify that I am one crusty and miserable bastard.

You forgot to add stinky, short and old.........lol

You guys going to LW for the boogie this year?

We'll have to have you and Amy up to the house this winter for dinner. Can you fly into Manch-Vegas, Pepperell or Brookline?

Tommy

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[scrublink 0]

We are tentatively scheduling for LW. Depends on work etc. I can land on anything that is 1000 feet or longer and not icy. It is also only a two hour drive up there.

Sometimes I think my humor is lost to people on these forums that don't know me. Maybe it doesn't come off that well on screen or maybe people don't take me serious because I have such low jump numbers for an instructor. Someday I will start logging jumps again and then I can really get going with my skygod act.



Ed

[whoremonkey 0]

I will always jump with a low timer, when asked. If I find a low timer at the loading area who is going to do a solo, and so am I, I always ask them if they want to put something together. I usually select a 2 way drill that is guaranteed to turn points for them. The only time I receive a fee for coach jumps is when I am directed to conduct a coach jump for the DZ school.

WhoreMonkey

[popsjumper 2]

I was paid twice in the last two years.

First one the guy wouldn't take No for an answer.

Second one was $20 showed up on my account and manifest wouldn't tell me who did it.

Passing it skyward gives me a good feeling inside.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

Priorities - team stuff first. If the DZ asks me to 'coach' a student on 'my' time, I'll sometimes take the slot payback for it, no fee though. But only if I had other jumps I'd prefer at the time and DZ absolutely needs this.

Normally, I'll pay my own slot and just jump "with" a newbie, not jump "for" a newbie. It's payback and great fun most of the time. Either way the jump is structured like a coach jump and the debrief is thorough.

We'll even occasionally take a VERY new student who's shown a good attitude and invite them 4th with 3 of us from our team. These can be the best dives these guys make for next couple years sometimes. Everyone pays their own slots. If the newbie wants video, he can arrange it for himself.

I wonder how many jumpers that think they deserve slot plus fee 'really' had to pay out when they were new? (actually, lately there is likely quite a few - but for the old timers I'd bet nearly zero).


another thing:
The argument that it matters if someone jumps for a living or not - why is that used as justification? Why should it matter whether a fun jumper vs a DZ employee charges or not? rationalization for making a buck is a strange response - there's nothing wrong with it. There's also nothing wrong with giving back to the sport for free too. Neither should make someone feel guilty to try and make a weak differentiation. Charge if you want, it doesn't matter a whit where your normal job is.

I've only once seen a "paid" coach bitch about an up jumper teaching for free - and "stealing his business". That's the only time I think it crossed the line. It's none of his business who jumps with who. (Though I think the reverse is true)

I also get very upset when lousy coaches charges. I've seen a lot of that. But if the student is willing to pay for that, then I don't vocalize it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Now it's my turn to give back, so I don't charge. In fact, most times I even cover my slot.

I'd consider having them cover your slot to be "charging", too.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[cloudsilk 0]

Different DZ do different things. At our DZ it's mandatory to do several coach jumps and they are kind of an extension of their AFF. Done prior to A Licence. More belly skills, freefly skills, canopy skills etc. Specific objectives toward their A licence.

I think you'll find the $70 is
$40 x2 slots
$10 x1 rig hire
$15 x 1 instructor
$5 x1 pack

If I am allocated to do a coach jump, I get paid and teach them the required moves. A coach jump is seperate from a fun jump to me. Coach jumps I'm teaching specific skills, so I treat it like doing AFF. If I fun jump with a lower jump no. skydiver, we have fun no pressure, no cahrge.

[AFFI 0]

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The argument that it matters if someone jumps for a living or not - why is that used as justification?

I'd consider having them cover your slot to be "charging", too.

Why do packers charge to pack? Because that is their job.

Ever seen a massage therapist at a DZ? Are they giving massages for free? Of course not, it is their job.

Does manifest put you on a load for free? No, that is their job.

Does the loader load for free or the airplane mechanic maintain the jump plane for free just because they are jumpers? Hell no.

Why do I charge to teach someone how to skydive? Because that is my job, it is my livelihood, how I help to provide for my family. It is what I have dedicated years of my life to become. My job is to instruct students to the A license and beyond.
After they get the A, they can pay my slot for coaching - call it charity because I cannot afford to sport jump hardly ever or call it a skydiver really being appreciative of what they are getting in return for the measly cost of a jump ticket. Or if you want, call it just some asshole that is bleeding the sport/hobbyist skydiver for every penny they can.
I have done a helluva lot of coaching and ground training for FREE - all the time – in freefall, coaching consists mostly of setting a base for the person learning, then to make in air evaluations and debrief the video. That sounds like my job description to me; of course I am not going to pay for my slot – that takes food out of my families mouths.

I am not at the DZ for 70+ hours a week as a fun jumper - it is my vocation...

To the person reading this:
What do you do for a living? How do you put food on your families table? What is your livelihood?

How much of that do you do and take a loss because you are giving you’re the skills of your livelihood away – taking bread out of your families food pantry?

I suspect that most people do not go to their workplace and give their employer their time for free - that is just my guess.

-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[bob.dino 0]

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Now it's my turn to give back, so I don't charge. In fact, most times I even cover my slot.

I'd consider having them cover your slot to be "charging", too.

Agreed.

[rehmwa 2]

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Why do I charge to teach someone how to skydive? Because that is my job, it is my livelihood, how I help to provide for my family.

Pretty sensitive response You read it completely wrong. If your discussion is serious, then I should ask if you think a weekend jumper is an asshole if they charge to coach.

I didn't say there is anything wrong with charging, nor that it was an 'asshole' kind of thing. I just said your justification about it being a career doesn't make it any more valid than "Joe weekend jumper" charging to do the exact same thing for the exact same amount. You can disagree if you want, but it's the same service. Competition sucks for those that have a chip about it.

So if "Jon the Dentist" shows up with a perfectly valid AFFI rating, do you scream and yell at him and berate the DZO for using him on especially busy days. Do you tell the students they didn't "really" pass that level 4 jump because Jon doesn't do this full time?

Edit: I don't care if anyone charges or not. It's their business how they use their time. I just don't understand discussions when someone tries to make their particular position 'special' vs any other person out there in this regard. Sounds more like rationalization than justification.

So if Bob, a carpenter - is at his brother's house and they do some 'projects', I guess Bob should just send a bill...... My opinion, is Bob has the perfect right to either send a bill or not, it's not my business whether he does or doesn't.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Now it's my turn to give back, so I don't charge. In fact, most times I even cover my slot.

I'd consider having them cover your slot to be "charging", too.

Agreed.

Of course, "charging for the slot." I guess I have to state that there's nothing wrong with that if one can ask for it and get it. I don't want someone getting upset. But to not call it charging is silly.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[inextremis 0]

If you don't have much in the way of property or equity, this isn't an issue, but to coach for free is much less exposure to litigation than to coach for money. I know litigation is a bad word, but to connect a coaches activities with an accident is much, much easier for a lawyer if money is changing hands for the jump. I don't do any instruction for money outside my military responsibilities, where I'm protected from lawsuit. If it's a living, then the exposure is probably a cost of doing business, but if it's not your living, you might consider coaching without the formality of payment. Just one consideration.

[AFFI 0]

Good point about the litigation stuff...

When I still had a "real" job there is no way I would accept money for coaching - hell just get some beer for the fridge...

When I still had a "real" job there was no way I would take a paying jump if a fulltime skydiver was available, give it to the one that makes his living at it.

[deadbug 0]

People trying to make a living off of this sport is what's killing it (Tandems factories, 100 jump wonders with a coaches lisc getting payed to jump with newbees). I agree we wouldn't have turbines without Tandems and maby we wouldn't have the facilities that we have, but trying to squeeze every nickel out of newbies just ain't right. Pay it forward.