EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS

[livendive 8]

I have the opposite issue with my camera men. All 3 that I routinely use are skinny little bastards that request I wear more suit. During the peak of summer I'd much rather wear just my FF pants and a t-shirt, but it's not worth listening to the complaints so instead I sit there and sweat from taxi-way till 3000+ feet. On the positive side, I *never* find myself wishing I had on more suit.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[crutch 0]

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Never once when flying camera for years did I ever tell the TI to help me out with the fall rate by holding off on the drouge or to wear (less/more) of a suit.

But, I bet there were tandem masters that you perferred to video because they were concerned about helping the videographer do his job easy/better. I also have done video for many years and still do, but I pick and choose who I wish to work with. It is very frustrating trying to put out a product when the other half of the team doesn't help, especially when they have the attitude that camera is your job the student is mine. Although this is true, working together creates a much better atomsphere and product in the end.

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What part of the camera flyers job includes keeping your tandem passengers skydive as safe as possible?

The one where the camera person doesn't run into the tandem!

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but having the camera flyer adjust their technique for every jump depending on the students body size is always a much safer thing to do.

But won't if also be nice if you adjusted a little also so the the camera flyer didn't have to work so hard and could get better shots?

blue skies,

art

[ostrich 0]

At our DZ we require all our instructors to wear jumpsuits.

Our most experienced Tandem Master with thousands of tandems wears as baggy a jumpsuit as he can find for his safety and for his students. He's a bad ass at every thing else he does, free flying or RW, so I don't think he's using it as a crutch.
That's the example I follow.

Our camera folks wear big enough wings to stay with things when they go slow, and go head down or arch harder when things go fast.

[bodypilot1 0]

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But, I bet there were tandem masters that you preferred to video because they were concerned about helping the videographer do his job easy/better.

I think everyone does have their favorites that match their style and fall rate, but what I said was that they dont have to be complaining about it and to adjust...

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The one where the camera person doesn't run into the tandem!

Very true.
It only takes one time for me to see a so called qualified camera flyer to show me he wasn't in full control, and I'll NEVER use him for video again.

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But won't if also be nice if you adjusted a little also so the the camera flyer didn't have to work so hard and could get better shots?

I didn't say I never have adjusted the fall rate after deploying the drouge.
What I said was dress in a manner that will give you TOTAL control of your skydiving EXIT.
Of course you can arch harder, bring your arms in or get bigger for the struggling camera flyer.
But like I said, it's when the TI doesnt throw the drouge to help the cameraman when the student is small, is when things can go to shit fast sometimes, like I wrote in my post above.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Booties make my job so simple. Speed helps as well. I can slow down by getting very flat (never an issue with my 155 pound ass), or I can simply speed up by flying with my hands behind my back and arching hard. Still, the best way to prevent stability problems is setting yourself up for success by performing as close to a perfect exit as possible.

[crutch 0]

Well we have gotten off of the subject by getting into the jumpsuit/no jumpsuit question and including camera flyers.

How do you prevent unstable exits? I will tell you what I do. One, get the student as relaxed as possible in the plane. This means you may actually have to carry on a conversation with them on something that has nothing to do with skydiving. It also means you have to exume some confidence in the plane on the ride up. Jokes that work on one person, may just scare the next, you have to be flexiable.

Second, get them into a postion on exit, while you are still in the door, on the step etc. that if they do nothing, you can handle the body position. On some planes this is more difficult than others, talk to experienced tandem masters and try some different things.

And lastly, relax, have fun! You being tense doesn't help at all. The more relaxed you are the better body postion the pair of you will be through the skydive. Throw your arms and legs out, some people say something like the x-man, I don't know, but it works.

Sidespins happen, I have been in several of them, they are no fun. One of them, I did all of the published methods to stop it, ended up just throwing the drogue, luckily we were drogue side up. Jumpsuits are not the solution, I don't think, hell all of my sidespins I was wearing a baggy one. Have yet to have one on a non-jumpsuit skydive. Develop a style, routine, whatever you want to call it, that works and stick to it.

blue skies,

art

[lewmonst 0]

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I have the opposite issue with my camera men. All 3 that I routinely use are skinny little bastards that request I wear more suit. During the peak of summer I'd much rather wear just my FF pants and a t-shirt, but it's not worth listening to the complaints so instead I sit there and sweat from taxi-way till 3000+ feet. On the positive side, I *never* find myself wishing I had on more suit.

What?!? In my opinion the camera flyer is completely responsible for staying with the fall-rate. If the tandem master is aware that the camera flyer is struggling and helps during drogue-fall, great. But the camera flyer needs to dress for success. For your sake, it sounds like they need to start wearing a weight belt. I'm pretty light, and I will put on up to 18 lbs and jump without wings if I'm with a heavy tandem. On the contrary, I can wear just my wingjacket and keep up with the lightest tandem combination.

peace

http://www.exitshot.com

[skydiverton 0]

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Booties make my job so simple. Speed helps as well. I can slow down by getting very flat (never an issue with my 155 pound ass), or I can simply speed up by flying with my hands behind my back and arching hard. Still, the best way to prevent stability problems is setting yourself up for success by performing as close to a perfect exit as possible.

Agree 100% about the booties. I'm not that large and jumping with booties was an increadible improvment. Much less rocking and very easy to maintain heading in freefall.

I use a suit similar to an RW-suit, but with wider arms and booties (no grips) The suit has been made on request, but it is similar to the suit some AFF-instructors use. I can also use that suit for doing RW-instructions with light-weight students

Not only the booties help, but also the wider arms help me to grap some extra air and at the same time have a normal freefall speed

I normally do 100-150 tandems a year. For me that is enough to invest in a suit specific for tandems.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[riggerrob 558]

My technique has changed radically over my last 2,99? tandems.
Back in the good-old-days, they taught us to grab the student's hands and leg-lock them in order to "fly the student's body."
I quit that foolishness after a 90 pound girl got a death grip on my pull hand near opening altitude.

After trying to leg-lock hundreds of flailing students, I eventually concluded that it does not work on the trully brain-dead.
Now I concentrate on exiting belly-into-the-wind and flying my body. If the student refuses to arch, I have to arch twice as hard!
I do a huge X-man for the first few seconds after exit.
As for jump suit selection, I wear the biggest and baggiest suit on the student rack.
I have also done hundreds of suitless jumps in the California desert. I only did suitless jumps on the hottest days when heat prostration was a greater risk than road rash.

Only the amateur videographers ask me to adjust fall rate. Professional videographers just fly their slot.
I am tired of working with amateur videographers.
They are one of the reasons that I started doing hand-mounted video. If forced to chose between working with whining amateurs or doing it all myself, I would rather do it all myself.
If amateur videographers cannot stay with a variety of tandems, they need to buy a better suit.
Sometimes I can help with fallrate, but I make it clear in the dirt dive that I cannot make any promises. If the student wants to spin, then I will devote 90% of my efforts to slowing the spin and fall rate be damned.

[JJohnson 0]

At my height I really can't leg lock many students. I pretty much keep to flying myself, trying to get as much air as possible. I have a pretty big fear of having a studen grab my arms as well. Wonder what the video of me biting their neck would look like?

I've watched video of many of my tandems. Some are pretty damn funny. The long legged people, who extend their legs rather than kicking them up on my ass drive me nuts. No way I can use just my legs to out fly them. One guy pretty much spent the entire ride with one leg straight out, the other bent and dropped. I spent the entire ride with the opposite arm and leg out countering.

I have found that I get more use out of my arms by keeping them back in a delta position, where there is more clean air. This rather than try to get air up where the students arms are. Sometimes I can use a mantis style with my arms over the students head....just depends.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[Andrewwhyte 1]

What will get you into a good drogue throwing position?
1. Getting the student to arch, no question.
2. Having a good exit. This is why I turn head up out of the king Air despite the fact that it means turning my back on the camera.
3. Outflying your student. I have never had a big problem with a student who had less surface area than me, nor do I have problems with big heavy folks. Trying to force people into position has always been the precursor to stability problems in my experience.

[livendive 8]

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What?!? In my opinion the camera flyer is completely responsible for staying with the fall-rate. If the tandem master is aware that the camera flyer is struggling and helps during drogue-fall, great. But the camera flyer needs to dress for success. For your sake, it sounds like they need to start wearing a weight belt. I'm pretty light, and I will put on up to 18 lbs and jump without wings if I'm with a heavy tandem. On the contrary, I can wear just my wingjacket and keep up with the lightest tandem combination.

I agree with you but don't really have any options. It comes down to a matter of my 10 minutes or so of being uncomfortable each jump versus their complaining of back pain the rest of the day/night/next morning. If there was a camera flyer at my DZ who had no such issues, I'd try to jump with them as often as possible during the hot part of the season, but no such person exists. In any case, fall is here and it is ceasing to be an issue. Hopefully by next June there'll either be someone who's comfortable at somewhat faster freefall speeds or we'll have a ton of AFF students for me to play with and I can leave the tandems to others on the hot days.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[bodypilot1 0]

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I have also done hundreds of suitless jumps in the California desert.

I'm not sure I know anyone that would jump with a nekid tandem instructor?

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Only the amateur videographers ask me to adjust fall rate. Professional videographers just fly their slot.
I am tired of working with amateur videographers.
They are one of the reasons that I started doing hand-mounted video. If forced to chose between working with whining amateurs or doing it all myself, I would rather do it all myself.
If amateur videographers cannot stay with a variety of tandems, they need to buy a better suit.
Sometimes I can help with fallrate, but I make it clear in the dirt dive that I cannot make any promises.

DITTO

-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[lewmonst 0]

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I agree with you but don't really have any options. It comes down to a matter of my 10 minutes or so of being uncomfortable each jump versus their complaining of back pain the rest of the day/night/next morning.

options? well, what are they wearing now? have they ever jumped with weights? Do they always jump with wings? do they have a tight slick rw suit? can they sit fly, back fly or knee fly? Those are options, of which, wearing weights is the easiest solution. It's nice of you to help out, but I still think the camera flyer needs to be versatile and should be able to handle any tandem fallrate. What do they do when you have a TM that's 220 and a passenger that's 230? If your camera guys can't keep up and complain of pain so much, maybe they shouldn't be videoing tandems.

(sorry to tangent from the topic of the thread)
peace

http://www.exitshot.com

[DanglesOZQld 0]

Apart from one horrendous incident that nearly killed myself and my student (long story email me if ya like!) I have since done about 850 tandems and not had any problems at all with varying students. Definitely exiting with stability and aggressive throwing of the drogue is good as is the ground instruction. I have also never had anyone sick in the jumps done nor had any refusals. What you say to the student for the brief and on the way to height has a lot to do with how they react on exit and landing. The biggest problem thus far I have had has been with tall light students. BSBD -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[DanglesOZQld 0]

As far as leg locking goes I found it was good for me very early on but on exit now I do nothing with the legs and fly my own body until after drogue throw where I then go the legs if possible. I have seen many tm's stuff up the video trying to control the legs of a student for too long and spinning or rocking with no control. On exit I find if you fly your own body you can hold the heading pretty much no matter what the meat bomb strapped to you is doing.

As far as video help I feel that the camera is second
in priority to the tandem. Yes the tandem master can help you out but YOU are the one responsible for the video so do your job!! We do both where I work full time and I have NEVER gone low or stuffed a video due to fall rate. I can still remember video 8 and huge camcorders involved with skydiving many years ago so fall rate problems are small fry compared to other hassles in years past. LEARN TO FLY! BSBD -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[bclark 0]

Interesting discussion. First I agree that if your student is not cooperating on exit, you should continue to fly as big and hard as you can, and not fight with them to improve their body position. Having good people skills helps to relax your student in the airplane, and proper positioning in the door and presentation on exit go even further. Your student can really do alot of shit under you as long as you are still skydiving hard. If you have the ability, just put your control surfaces outside of theirs and get BIG!

I agree that camera flyers who think it is the Tandem I's responsibility to place "teamwork" ahead of ensuring a safe skydive for them and their student, should either improve their flying skills or get a new suit. Our job as instructors is to provide our student with a safe and fun experience, your job as camera people is to fly hard and get the shot. I am not at all adverse to assisting with fall rate once the drogue is out to the best of my ability. I face the sun, I pull high on long spots, and I do my best to land as close to you as possible. There's yer teamwork for ya.

[foreverfree 0]

THANKS SO MUCH TO YOU AND TO EVERYONE OUT HERE WHO RESPONDED TO MY QUESTIONS.
EACH ONE OF YOU HAVE REALLY CONTRIBUTED IN THE MOST EFFECTIVE MANNER POSSIBLE.
YOUR ADVICE IS HIGHLY VALUABLE TO ME.

BORN FREE
LIVING FREE
FOREVER FREE
FALLING FREE

[bodypilot1 0]

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THANKS SO MUCH TO YOU AND TO EVERYONE OUT HERE WHO RESPONDED TO MY QUESTIONS.
EACH ONE OF YOU HAVE REALLY CONTRIBUTED IN THE MOST EFFECTIVE MANNER POSSIBLE.
YOUR ADVICE IS HIGHLY VALUABLE TO ME.

Anything my friend.

Be safe.

-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com