quade 3 #1 March 4, 2002 QuoteHerbst's attorney, Imanuel Arin, said the evidence will clearly show Pappadato deviated from the plan during the jump. Herbst was below Pappadato when Pappadato struck him, and the "low man always has the right of way."All I can say is, "F@ck NO!"While "low man" may apply to traffic patterns for landing, it definately does NOT apply to freefly or camera flying.There's absolutley no way for a camera flyer to avoid a collision if somebody DOESN'T track and decides to deploy under them.So, just to make it perfectly clear, Herbst's attorney, Imanuel Arin, can go try camera flying himself sometime. (I originally used a dirty word there, but I'm afraid of getting sued.)quadehttp://futurecam.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mwthomsen 0 #2 March 4, 2002 Our camera man always takes the center and we track away. Seems to be pretty standard, but not having flown a camera before can a person flying camera and wearing a wing track? Or is it too slow or difficult to get any seperation even in a pinch?Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #3 March 4, 2002 From someone who has a few camera jumps ... the biggest safety hazard in flying a camera is limited peripheral vision. It is not so much the fancy helmet that limits your peripheral vision, as focussing on the shot.The second biggest risk is someone doing something stupid - like opening directly below you! Hardly any of us have the skills to track out of the way of an opening canopy. There is simply not enough time to react!To answer your earlier question, camera suits with big wings ENLARGE your envelope. Good videographers have huge fall rate ranges. Part of it is their suits, but a lot of it is currency. They can stay up with the skinniest tandems and dive with the best head-downers. Videographers can track with the best of them. However, on most DZs, videographers try to plan the dive so they don't have to track. The defacto standard is for everyone else to to track away from the center of the formation and for the photographer to open in the middle. Most photographers like to open higher for two reasons. First, photographers usually pack for really slow openings. Secondly, opening first keeps them above most of the canopy traffic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #4 March 4, 2002 QuoteOur camera man always takes the center and we track away.This is the "standard plan". Any deviation should be well discussed.Quote. . . can a person flying camera and wearing a wing track?Depending on the situation -- quite well! A good camera flyer can track -backwards- as well as some RW flyers track forward.However, good RW video, the type used in competition and big ways required the camera flyer to be almost, if not directly, above the formation. This is a very vulnerable position since they may only be about 10 feet above the other jumpers. Obviously that would leave no time whatsoever if someone just decided to toss or if there was a premature deployment.quadehttp://futurecam.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beachbum 0 #5 March 4, 2002 Quade ... I'm not up to speed on this whole thing ... do you have a URL where I could read more about the incident being discussed? thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #6 March 4, 2002 Quotedo you have a URL where I could read more about the incident being discussed? Yes, unfortunately, these are only media reports and may not contain correct or factual information. They may contain outright lies for all I know. I suspect in some instances they do.The Las Vegas Sun has a kind of flaky web server and may or may not find and give you the article on the first attempt. They actually are there, you just may have to try a couple of times. http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/archives/1998/may/11/507197945.html http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/archives/1999/nov/30/509415691.html http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/archives/2002/feb/22/513078407.htmlI wasn't there but know several individuals that were. Some are people I consider some of my closest friends and I'm very sorry if I've somehow pissed them off by bringing this topic up. There are a few conflicting stories as to what actually took place. People have made statements and later retracted them. To me that part of the larger story is all very confusing.Check the dates on the articles carefully for the chronology of events! I believe this says something, but then again I might not have all of my facts straight.All of the above said, that's not really my beef, concern or even why I orginally started this thread.quadehttp://futurecam.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #7 March 4, 2002 Hmm, what snapped his neck, the weight of the camera + the impact? Think I've heard of that happening a few times before in this sport.Too bad these heavier cameras couldn't be mounted on the chest or something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #8 March 4, 2002 Anything over a few ounces gets its forces magnified the further it is from the helmet. If you want to jump a camera, ask your self what type of neck injury do I want whip-lash (top mount) or strained neck muscles on the side (Side mount) That helps clarify the mount you need to use on your camera....Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #9 March 4, 2002 I think it's a good rule, sort of like the rule in boating that says sailboats have right of way over powerboats.This doesn't mean that a sailboat should blindly cut accross the bow of an ocean going tanker. The sailer might still have the right of way, but he'd be dead.It seems to me that this is the wrong sport to rely on a standard set of rules to protect us. Jumpers simply must take responsability for themselves.I think it's a harsh reality. Hypothetically if a cameraman gets smucked by his subject who prematured, that's a risk the cameraman has to take.This is such a tough issue to discuss, as soon as the lawyers got inolved the truth went out the window. Nobody knows what actually happened...The one lesson we can learn from this cluster fuck is that we all need to talk to our loved ones, make sure that if this were to happen to us our family wouldn't be sueing on our behalf._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beachbum 0 #10 March 4, 2002 thanks for the links Quade ... seems to me that any way this turns out, skydiving suffers as a result ... ... hate to see anyone involved in accidents in the sport contributing to the "sue 'em" mentality, especially one like this, where it appears fairly certain that blame is very unlikely to ever be truly established - looks like there are a lot of possibilities. I'd like to see that video. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #11 March 4, 2002 I agree...I'm meeting with a lawyer in a couple weeks to write up my first will. There will definitely be mention in there not to take any action in the event of my demise due to a skydiving accident (with the specification that unless someone shot me in freefall, it should be considered an accident).The interesting part about this, unless there's a piece missing somewhere, is that the initial suit was brought by the injured jumper against the estate of the decedent. Guess he figured that the dead can't defend themselves and it would be an easy payout.cielos azules y cerveza fría-Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YahooLV 0 #12 March 5, 2002 Sorry, you are incorrect about who started this whole lawsuit thing. Again, if you don't know the facts, find out before making statements. I resent the implication you have brought upon the injured skydiver in stating that he brought this to the legal realm. It was, in fact, the decedent's family who started this whole mess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #13 March 5, 2002 Make it clear to your loved ones that you will piss on them from heaven, if they ever do anything as stupid as launching a lawsuit if you die while skydiving.The alternative would be arranging "special" treat if they join you in hell! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #14 March 5, 2002 QuoteAgain, if you don't know the facts, find out before making statements.QuoteThe interesting part about this, unless there's a piece missing somewhere, is that the initial suit was brought by the injured jumper against the estate of the decedent.Please read my whole statement before bashing me. Obviously you're saying there is a piece missing, that's fine. I was basing my statement on the chronology of the articles posted above and admitedly don't have any personal knowledge of any of the facts. If you do, please enlighten us instead of attempting to censor us.cielos azules y cerveza fría-Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #15 March 5, 2002 Camera flyers need to be aware of, and on guard against, "tunnel vision" . Stay on the shot, by not moving your head, whereby the lens of the camera, is solid on the subject, but at the same time, you CAN let your EYES move........scanning the area around and below, for the unusual....someone going low, or poor flying techniques which can result in a collision, or say, a 10 way dive, where only 5 or 6 people dock...........meaning WHERE THE HELL ARE THE OTHERS????????......scan below, with your eyes,,,,anticipate the chance that the unusual may/will occurand move FAST if it does.....A side slide (done immediately), utilizing one extended wing, and one retracted wing can be the difference between a face full of d bag, or canopy, and a near miss.... this evasive move can be quicker, than trying to 180 and initiate a conventional track. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdrew20012001 0 #16 March 5, 2002 From experience I can say I agree. The camera flyer is definitely on his own during the skydive. All rules are off as far as I am concerned. I was videoing a three way when one of the people deployed right under me when I was on my back filming a deployment. The guy said he had lost track of me, when I asked him why he turned 90 degree from the center of the formation, tracked short and dumped he had no answer. (instead of tracking away from the center of the formation and tracking for a while). Depending on what we are doing, we may be above, below, or on plane with whatever our subject matter is. Even when doing relative work where, frequently, it is understood that the camera man dumps in place at break off, I watch to make sure everyone is traking before I deploy.Oh well, beats the hell out of packing tandems to pay for skydiving, gotta get a free slot somehow.Drewfus McDoofus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikefarmer 0 #17 March 5, 2002 QuoteThe one lesson we can learn from this cluster fuck is that we all need to talk to our loved ones, make sure that if this were to happen to us our family wouldn't be sueing on our behalf.AAAAmen, I know I don't want my legacy to be "Mike Farmer, the guy who shut down the DZ......hymn, hymn........"Missy the 225 lb. Meat Missile Sky World Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #18 March 7, 2002 All of us take a risk every time we get on a plane. If you think the people on the load create to much of a risk, then do not jump!!! This type of litigation will kill the sport. William Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #19 March 7, 2002 Quoteunless there's a piece missing somewherephyllykev,See the missing link here:http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2002/Mar-01-Fri-2002/news/18211022.html__________________________________________http://www.discover.net/~ltdiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #20 March 7, 2002 ***AAAAmen, I know I don't want my legacy to be "Mike Farmer, the guy who shut down the DZ......hymn, hymn........"[\quote]No, Missy, your legacy is firmly entrenched as "Mike Farmer, the guy who will run naked through a DZ. Or a Store. Or a church..."Kris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #21 March 7, 2002 QuoteSee the missing link here: . . .I think we might need to visit the courthouse and check the dates the suits and countersuits were filed by both parties before going any further based on the assumptions of reports in newspapers.I have a chronology of events in my mind that does not seem to agree with some other folks on this thread.Is there anybody on this thread that lives in Vegas and that knows how to do a public record search? It's pretty easy.quadehttp://futurecam.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikefarmer 0 #22 March 7, 2002 QuoteNo, Missy, your legacy is firmly entrenched as "Mike Farmer, the guy who will run naked through a DZ. Or a Store. Or a church..."Hey, I hardly ever run naked through the DZ! Missy the 225 lb. Meat Missile Sky World Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibrobinm 0 #23 March 8, 2002 ROFLMAO ! ! ! So many times, so many places......Missy, Missy, Missy.....never a dull moment when he's around! You just gotta love the guy, what can I say.....p.s. Missy, if you read this thread, you better get your butt up here - - WE NEED TO SEE YOU ! ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibrobinm 0 #24 March 8, 2002 oh-oh-oh I also have some very interesting pics of Missy from WFFC in 1999......always the "entertainer..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikefarmer 0 #25 March 11, 2002 Holy sh1t Robin. This thread has been hijacked! But, hey, they're moving WFFC this year, maybe we'll have to break in a new town. I hope the fuzz there isn't any faster than Quincy's finest!! Missy the 225 lb. Meat Missile Sky World Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
