mrshutter45 21 #42251 August 16, 2013 what do you think about Paul Geivett. he's claiming the case will be closed this year based on his evidence. he has matched the 4 letters sent just after the crime and matching them to the ticket Cooper purchased and handwriting from KC....."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCharger 0 #42252 August 16, 2013 mrshutter45what do you think about Paul Geivett. he's claiming the case will be closed this year based on his evidence. he has matched the 4 letters sent just after the crime and matching them to the ticket Cooper purchased and handwriting from KC..... I am not qualified to have an informed opinion of his claims. But I do know that the validity of handwriting analysis is dubious at best and worthless at worst. Also, his odd videos seem sketchy as well. It's been two months...where is the big announcement?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42253 August 16, 2013 CCharger Lastly, Duane Weber was officially eliminated as a Coop suspect 15 years ago using fingerprint analysis and later on using DNA. He hasn't been a credible candidate since the 1990s. EVIDENTLY you do NOT research a DAMN thing. Duane was dismissed based on PRINTS alone and the did NOT know if the particial prints they had even belonged to Cooper. The prints taken came from the aftway and are smugged. "They may have been there since the plane was built". That quote came from someone who has a right to make an opinion statement...FBI. The DNA the FBI requested many many yrs later. I had remarried and had NOTHING other than a valuable watch I was sure had his DNA on it. I gave them some stuff I didn't even know if Duane ever even touched. He died in 1995 and they did NOT request any DNA until 2003 and they DID NOT TEST the DNA until 2007. I am a clean ahololic. Nothing get by me that is not cleaned and cleaned. The items I gave him the Christmas before he died, I do NOT believe he even used them. I am the one who unpackaged them and put them in his closet - but have NO knowledge he even tried them on...referring to slippers. I tried to give them to a friend - he is ex-miltary - surely the ID's his prnts on the items. Some of the tape he liked to play - but I had cleaned them off one by one. There was a couple of pipes - but they had been in my mouth and in a friends - I did NOT send them the ONE pipe I knew Weber used - it meant too much to me. None of the items were returned until 2008 and I never received a report on them. I have offered the only reliable DNA I have of Cooper and which is in the expansions of a VERY expensive watch... I will allow them to swab but not to take from me. The items they did NOT test until 2007 because the AGENT forgot to remove the report on the items. He called me frantically, but he would have gotten that report back over my dead body. It was just who did what test and when - not an actual DNA reading. Duane had been dead for 1yr and 2 month before I knew who Dan Cooper was or understood what he was talking about in the hospital in 1995. It was 2003 yrs they asked for DNA and 2007 before they tested it. THEREFORE take YOUR DAMN statement back - He was still a credible suspect as late as 2007. If Weber was NOT a viable suspect - WHY did the FBI keep his most recent prison record and mug shots out of the media. Even kept them from me....and I BEGGED for the pictures and the file. I BEGGED right here in the thread in public when Carr was here. You were NOT with Duane & I on that trip - I know what he told me and I know what he told me in the hospital and I have files the FBI does NOT even want to see. Over the last 18 yrs I have met many many people like you - those looking for a story or that have reasons to hide the past of the government. YEA! This goes back to government cover-ups. I was WARNED to leave it be by an individual who threatened me and by others who told me I was opening a can of worms that could be deadly. I have dealt with individuals like you before. One who I have NOT told the thread about - he was in contact with me for several wks until I ENDED IT! His story was that Weber was Cooper, but the story just did NOT congeal. When Cossey came up dead - I walked away from this individual. Now you guys are crawling out of the wood pile - You make the 5 th one in the last 6 months. Since the FBI announced it is closing the case the wannabees went into a feeding frenzy. You are the 3rd one to show up on this thread since January! The other 2 who did NOT come to the thread contacted me personally and one seemed very irrational at times. It got worse when Cossey died. I severed this one connection I had outside of this thread a few wks ago. If you believe everything Bruce says then you need a lot of help. I like Bruce, but his tactics are NOT very good....I have told him he would make a good writer for the ENQUIRER! I like Bruce, but he is a bull in a china closet type reporter and I have never forgiven him for what he did to Tina and her family. Since you are such good friends with him - why don't you ask him. I have only read a few pages of his book, but I have been told he did a fair job. He does NOT really like me, but he tolerates me as I tolerate him. There has been MORE you have NO knowledge of! Evidently YOU are NOT in the loop or you are someone who is SUPPOSED to attack and decomtaminate anyone with a suspect.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42254 August 16, 2013 CCharger Lastly, I think if you look back at my recent posts you will see I have been nothing but polite, respectful of others opinions and insights, and eager to learn from the work of others while courteously offering my own opinions as well. My opinion of you is based on yrs of dealing with individuals trying to develope their own story - you are feeding on these guys - you are leading them around like they have rings in their noses. I have NOT read anything you have brought to the table that was your very own - you take their words and you LEAD them in the direction of the slaughter house. A lot of that has gone on for 18 yrs now and after a while you just start to read thur the wannabes and the writers looking for a story....they don't care if the facts are correct - they just want to tell a good story that gets attention. They don't care about who gets hurt or if the crime is ever really solved. They pretend to be what they are not. They pretend to have knowledge they do not have. Opinions in this thread I hope are based on facts. You based - for instance - the drug on WHAT? YOU have NO evidence a certain drug is used - but, you go about this as though it is FACT and IT is NOT FACT and YOU cannot PROVE the STATEMENT. You take control of a subject like the drug and then you think you own it. You claimed it was FACT - prove it was FACT before you start to BUILD a story using it as FACT! Quote the reference from the FBI it was a specific drug. If that information came from BRUCE it is his own conjecture and not fact. Produce a statement from the FBI that specifically indicates the drug was used! Then you are at liberty to make the statement you did. Not everyone gets to talk to Curtis Eng and you might be talking to what I call a mouthpiece - but they actually have very little knowledge of the crime....they will answer NO questions. Curtis is not the only agent working the case at this time.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCharger 0 #42255 August 16, 2013 skyjack71*** Lastly, I think if you look back at my recent posts you will see I have been nothing but polite, respectful of others opinions and insights, and eager to learn from the work of others while courteously offering my own opinions as well. My opinion of you is based on yrs of dealing with individual trying to develope their own story - you are feeding on these guys - you are leading them around like they have rings in their noses. I have NOT read anything you have brought to the table that was you very own - you take their words and you LEAD them in the direction of the slaughter house. A lot of that has gone on for 18 yrs now and after a while you just start to read thur the wannabes and the writers looking for a story....they don't care if the facts are correct - they just want to tell a good story that get attention. They don't care about who gets hurt or if the crime is ever really solved. They pretend to be what they are not. They pretend to have knowledge they do not have. Opinions in this thread I hope are based on facts. You based - for instance - the drug on WHAT? YOU have NO evidence a certain drug is used - but, you go about this as though it is FACT and IT is NOT FACT and YOU cannot PROVE the STATEMENT. You take control of a subject like the drug and then you think you own it. You claimed it was FACT - prove it was FACT before you start to BUILD a story using it as FACT! Quote the reference from the FBI it was a specific drug. If that information came from BRUCE it is his own conjecture and not fact. Produce a statement from the FBI that specifically indicates the drug was used! Then you are at liberty to make the statement you did. Not everyone gets to talk to Curtis Eng and you might be talking to what I call a mouthpiece - but they actually have very little knowledge of the crime....they will answer NO questions. Curtis is not the only agent working the case at this time. Wow. Just...wow. Anyways... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42256 August 16, 2013 Jo, Calm down. And quit trying to intimidate CCharger. You are wasting your time, the thread's time, and just making yourself look silly. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCharger 0 #42257 August 16, 2013 Robert99Jo, Calm down. And quit trying to intimidate CCharger. You are wasting your time, the thread's time, and just making yourself look silly. Robert99 I don't know why she would want to intimidate me. If she knew anything about me, she would know I am impossible to intimidate. I don't pretend to have all the answers. I am here to learn and exchange ideas in a civil manner. I will continue to do that regardless of what she thinks and says. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42258 August 16, 2013 Robert99Jo, Calm down. And quit trying to intimidate CCharger. You are wasting your time, the thread's time, and just making yourself look silly. Robert99 Robert, thank you for the advise and often you and I disagree, but I have never ever gone into the attack mode with you and / or with others (exception JT). I might be wasting my time, but I have had a belly full of this kind of individual in the last 6 months. If I sound silly defending the credibility of you guys and myself then so be it. You and Homid and others have done some excellent research...I do NOT want to see any of it trashed even if I do NOT agree with it all - the technical stuff I leave to you guys. I just ask stupid woman questions in that respect. My part of this is telling about the things I remember and what Duane told me. My memories do NOT mean Sxxx, but the research you guys worked hard to compile should not be made light of. Not Silly - just being protective of everything that has been accomplished on this thread. Read back from the time the man came to the thread - his motive is not good. He has put himself in CHARGE (like his handle). He is deliberately stating things in a manner that he can use to write a book or utilize the work you guys have done in a manner you will not be happy with. He is using you guys to CREATE his own version of Cooper....note how he composes his post. He makes his statements as facts - go back and note he is leading you guys and you are NOT going to be happy with the end result! What he ends up will not be conjecture - but be published or made public as FACT. This man is a TAKE CHARGE person and he has a reason to word things the way he does. He led you right into one of the posts - getting you to agree he was right. That is all it will take to discredit anything you have done and what you are really saying. This man is not one you play games with or banter with - this man will destroy everything you have ever tried to accomplish on this case. I for one respect the research you have done and do not want to see it slaughtered...everyone is entitled to an opinion but this man takes your statement and makes it his own with leading words of conviction - hence it become his words - NOT yours. Did you make your trip to WA just to have everything you have tried to accomplish - be flushed down the toilet? He does this in a very subjective way with his leading questions being used to start his conversation and his answers are interperted as fact and become fact....which he claims as his own. End of subject for me - but when this man produces his movie you will NOT be a Happy Camper. He posts like a script writer.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42259 August 16, 2013 CCharger***Jo, Calm down. And quit trying to intimidate CCharger. You are wasting your time, the thread's time, and just making yourself look silly. Robert99 I don't know why she would want to intimidate me. If she knew anything about me, she would know I am impossible to intimidate. I don't pretend to have all the answers. I am here to learn and exchange ideas in a civil manner. I will continue to do that regardless of what she thinks and says. Jo Weber, AKA Mrs. Cooper, is scared to death that someone will finally discover the identity of the real D. B. Cooper and that it will NOT be Duane Weber, her deceased husband. Jo has been on a crusade for the past 17+ years to prove that Duane Weber was Cooper. Her motive for doing this remains unclear. But Jo Weber is the biggest mystery on this thread, even bigger than Cooper himself. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42260 August 16, 2013 My opinion of you is based on yrs of dealing with individuals trying to develope their own story - you are feeding on these guys - Yo... Jo, take a break! Cool off. And PLEASE dont screw up the page format with your madd typing ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42261 August 16, 2013 mrshutter45***mrshutter4, Thanks for that insight. Here is a question specifically for any of you who lived in the Por-Van area in 1971. Where were the local JC Penneys? A quick search reveals 2 store locations in Vancouver and 2 in Portland, but all four were built AFTER 1971. So where was the closest Penneys in the Por-Van area in 1971? this would be with the assumption Cooper lived in this area correct? keep in mind the tie appears to have been used prior to this crime. Tie Tac holes are present in the tie prior to having the tie clip on it. how do we know he didn't fly into Portland under another name, or take a bus, hitchhike lol who knows......can we really assume he was from Portland/Vancouver? or do you have a different angle?Quote This brings me back to something I almost posted the other day ... Sluggo thought Cooper might have picked a place for his hijacking as far away from his home base as possible ... a section of the country in limbo (in the boondocks) with few hijackings and poor security. Snowmman then proved flight 305 was a recent addition since the August only, which began its day on the east coast. The last short flight of the day after a long day - crew tired - day before Thanksgiving - security low and off guard. Cheap ticket. Cheap clothes. If he had just recently purchased the tie in Portland how is the cocktail formed on it within say a year ...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42262 August 16, 2013 skyjack71***Jo, Calm down. And quit trying to intimidate CCharger. You are wasting your time, the thread's time, and just making yourself look silly. Robert99 Robert, thank you for the advise and often you and I disagree, but I have never ever gone into the attack mode with you and / or with others (exception JT). I might be wasting my time, but I have had a belly full of this kind of individual in the last 6 months. If I sound silly defending the credibility of you guys and myself then so be it. You and Homid and others have done some excellent research...I do NOT want to see any of it trashed even if I do NOT agree with it all - the technical stuff I leave to you guys. I just ask stupid woman questions in that respect. My part of this is telling about the things I remember and what Duane told me. My memories do NOT mean Sxxx, but the research you guys worked hard to compile should not be made light of. Not Silly - just being protective of everything that has been accomplished on this thread. Read back from the time the man came to the thread - his motive is not good. He has put himself in CHARGE (like his handle). He is deliberately stating things in a manner that he can use to write a book or utilize the work you guys have done in a manner you will not be happy with. He is using you guys to CREATE his own version of Cooper....note how he composes his post. He makes his statements as facts - go back and note he is leading you guys and you are NOT going to be happy with the end result! What he ends up will not be conjecture - but be published or made public as FACT. This man is a TAKE CHARGE person and he has a reason to word things the way he does. He led you right into one of the posts - getting you to agree he was right. That is all it will take to discredit anything you have done and what you are really saying. This man is not one you play games with or banter with - this man will destroy everything you have ever tried to accomplish on this case. I for one respect the research you have done and do not want to see it slaughtered...everyone is entitled to an opinion but this man takes your statement and makes it his own with leading words of conviction - hence it become his words - NOT yours. Did you make your trip to WA just to have everything you have tried to accomplish - be flushed down the toilet? He does this in a very subjective way with his leading questions being used to start his conversation and his answers are interperted as fact and become fact....which he claims as his own. Jo, Your reply comes as a total shock to me. You are the same person who has called me: 1. A troll living under a bridge. 2. A phony. 3. An ass. 4. A moron. 5. A plant from the FBI to make sure the Cooper case is never solved. 6. And probably other names that I can't remember right now. Jo, Don't worry about CCharger taking over the thread. Since both you and Blevins believe that this thread couldn't exist without your guidance, I'm sure that any indication that CCharger is moving to unseat Weber/Blevins would result in a blood bath here. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42263 August 16, 2013 Robert99 ******Jo, Calm down. And quit trying to intimidate CCharger. You are wasting your time, the thread's time, and just making yourself look silly. Robert99 I don't know why she would want to intimidate me. If she knew anything about me, she would know I am impossible to intimidate. I don't pretend to have all the answers. I am here to learn and exchange ideas in a civil manner. I will continue to do that regardless of what she thinks and says. Jo Weber, AKA Mrs. Cooper, is scared to death that someone will finally discover the identity of the real D. B. Cooper and that it will NOT be Duane Weber, her deceased husband. Jo has been on a crusade for the past 17+ years to prove that Duane Weber was Cooper. Her motive for doing this remains unclear. But Jo Weber is the biggest mystery on this thread, even bigger than Cooper himself. Robert99 Quote Jo a mystery? Hardly. She deludes having control of this her thread she says she founded! As we all know we came here to attraction of Jo, that Mrs Cooper who Himmelsbach wishes would stop calling... just ignore her. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42264 August 16, 2013 georger******mrshutter4, Thanks for that insight. Here is a question specifically for any of you who lived in the Por-Van area in 1971. Where were the local JC Penneys? A quick search reveals 2 store locations in Vancouver and 2 in Portland, but all four were built AFTER 1971. So where was the closest Penneys in the Por-Van area in 1971? this would be with the assumption Cooper lived in this area correct? keep in mind the tie appears to have been used prior to this crime. Tie Tac holes are present in the tie prior to having the tie clip on it. how do we know he didn't fly into Portland under another name, or take a bus, hitchhike lol who knows......can we really assume he was from Portland/Vancouver? or do you have a different angle?Quote This brings me back to something I almost posted the other day ... Sluggo thought Cooper might have picked a place for his hijacking as far away from his home base as possible ... a section of the country in limbo (in the boondocks) with few hijackings and poor security. Snowmman then proved flight 305 was a recent addition since the August only, which began its day on the east coast. The last short flight of the day after a long day - crew tired - day before Thanksgiving - security low. I think Sluggo and Snowmman are correct. Cooper would probably not be interested in making a mess on his own door step. And the hijacking was probably planned based on the new NWA flight being a 727, a short time for the law enforcement types to react, people taking off early for Thanksgiving Day, etc.. Cooper probably recognized the opportunity that was developing for the hijacking and made the most of it. Cooper got the money and died rich but probably within 90 minutes. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42265 August 16, 2013 In light of the discussion regarding Benzedrine. Here is a link that talks about how ubiquitous it's use was in that time. It is fact that Coop had pills he said the pilots could use if tired. The only choices of stimulants in 1971 would be caffeine tablets like No Doz or amphetamines like Benzedrine. Gray and Smith both claim that it was Benzedrine. Therefore I conclude it was probably Benzedrine. Can I prove it? No. It is an educated guess, but a safe bet in my opinion. http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/04/the-lost-world-of-benzedrine/255904/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42266 August 16, 2013 Robert99 Jo Weber, AKA Mrs. Cooper, is scared to death that someone will finally discover the identity of the real D. B. Cooper and that it will NOT be Duane Weber, her deceased husband. Jo has been on a crusade for the past 17+ years to prove that Duane Weber was Cooper. Her motive for doing this remains unclear. But Jo Weber is the biggest mystery on this thread, even bigger than Cooper himself. Robert99 Robert go back and read the post I made just before this one. Actually read it and digest it. Read it throughly. I am absolutely NOT afraid of anyone finding and proving who Cooper was. It is easy to figure out who wasn't Cooper when certain suspects come up - but the FBI has NOT been able to definitely rule out Weber, with the information they have on Cooper or Weber or Collins. The problem with Weber is he was just OFF the charts for 6 yrs - the FBI has NO explanation for that - no prison records, no employment records - Zilch! His associates during that time also have Zilch on file. Ed Huran and Tommy Gunn - they were real people just like Duane - but they didn't exist from 1962 to 1966....so what were they involved in and did Duane use the knowledge he acquired to commit the crime of the century - if he did their hands are tied. If the FBI could prove Weber was NOT Cooper - don't you think they would have provided me with that infomation a long time ago to make me go away! They haven't because they can't! Sure they could say prints don't match (if they had a decent set for Cooper) or the DNA doesn't match (if they knew they had Cooper's DNA). This is the problem - if the DNA and prints were viable and they did NOT belong to Weber - who did they belong to? Evidently someone Duane knew and was close to - otherwise how did Duane end up with his plane ticket, the bank bag and why did he confess to a crime that I knew little to nothing about. YOU see I cannot erase my memory no matter how hard I try. I held that plane ticket in my hand and I held the bank bag in my hand....if Duane was NOT Dan Cooper as he claimed then who was Duane in contact with during those yrs. Did Duane find that stuff in a shed he cleaned out in AL or FL? Was the man already dead and Duane obviously knew what he had. That just doesn't fit. Since he took me on that trip in 1979 and the things he showed me and told me - then fit with the things that he did between 1990 and 1995 culminating with his saying "I'mmm Dannn Cooooper!" There are only 2 conclusions - Duane was Cooper or he was with him and buried him. Frankly I believe that if they ever find out who Cooper was - it will be Duane Weber or someone he was close to. Face it if there was a man on the ground and one in the air - that would explain Duane's obsession with the communications part of it and all those towers he took me to all in the flight path. How he knew every airstrip, every grave yard, the power lines, the pipelines, the roadway with no map, every tower eery stream of water. No man knows all of that stuff if he did NOT live there for a pretty decent period of time. Duane named people - the names of which I would now have to look up...because my memory is starting to fade - and names & numbers seem to be fading pretty fast.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42267 August 16, 2013 That's good info. Thanks. I think I am going to contact JC Penneys corporate and see if they have that info. Here is another good link regarding amphetamines circa 1971. http://blackpoppymag.wordpress.com/substances/dexedrine-dexamphetamine/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42268 August 16, 2013 One of the names was something like Neustel, Nuetel or a sound alike names such as Knutson. Duane talked about this man in WA. He even pointed to an area the man lived in. he also told me he had a friend buried in a cemetery there - but did NOT tell me the name. I do NOT know what name to look under...and uncertain where the cememtery was - just that it was in Washougal, but the one I found did not look like the one I saw in 1979 - so there is still a puzzle there and why I want to go back so very very much. Finding that grave and who Duane knew is very important just to me and for no other reason than just knowing. If there was 2 men involved - did Duane bury him after he died of his injuries - or did they both leave alive. How do 2 people keep a secret - I guess if you knew you would spend the rest of your life in prison it is pretty easy! I may never know the truth, but I feel if I went back to WA one more time and had individuals to do some research - I might find out who Duane KNEW and who was buried there...I believe there could be two bodies in one grave! Was there a funeral scheduled in the Washougal area for the 24th or 25th ot 26th. Was a grave dug and covered awaiting a funeral - it would have been easy to have put a body in a grave that had been dug and put a light layer of dirt over it...the casket of the other person would have been lowered without their even looking to see if the grave had been tampered with. If the area was a place Duane his friend knew very well it would not have been a problem at all. His voice choked and he said no more on the subject. This is why I feel confidnet about Duane being Cooper being on the ground, but woudl NOT explane his ning mare - in 1977. Maybe why he had to go back to feel whole agan. Duane was a sentimental jerk. I is just how he would have andled it. I they found Cooper they would go lookin for the money and or anyone the jumper knew. It is the only other senario that fit ssith the situation. Meds are takin g affect so I am going to bed. Have fun, but remember what I have told you.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42269 August 16, 2013 skyjack71 One of the names was something like Neustel, Nuetel or a sound alike names such as Knutson. Quote Nuttal? as in George Nuttal ? I think your mind is playing tricks on you. How about Abraham Lincoln? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42270 August 16, 2013 The possibility of a Freedom of Information Act request in the Cooper case was recently raised on this thread. I am not familiar with that act and don't know how the legal aspects of it are handled. But the following is a discussion of the various channels of communication that were used during the hijacking. The NWA 305 Boeing 727 had a MINIMUM of two VHF radio transceivers for voice communications. It may have had more, but two were MANDATORY. The airliner could also receive voice communications, but not transmit, on other VHF frequencies such as the frequencies of the VOR stations used for navigation. In addition, it is very likely that the airliner could receive some voice communications through the ADF receiver (and probably receive the standard AM commercial broadcast stations as well). But there is no indication that anything mentioned in this paragraph was used for communicating with the airliner during the hijacking. During flight and ground operations, the airliner apparently used only its two VHF transceivers for communications. They would be used to communicate with the FAA Air Traffic Control system (airport towers, air traffic control centers/controllers, etc.), the ARINC (Aeronautical Radio Incorporated) system operated by the airline industry, and NWA company radio frequencies. On the last item, part of the ground communications by the airliner while on the ground in Seattle was done on the NWA company ground frequency. But the first two items are the most important. The FAA communications between the towers and air traffic control facilities were routinely tape recorded in the early 1970s. In addition to the voice communications over the radios, extensive coordination was done between controllers using a dedicated telephone system. These telephone communications were also routinely recorded. See the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center transcripts for examples of this. Following the hijacking, the Chiefs of the Seattle and Oakland ATC centers had transcripts made of their communications with the airliner and certified that those transcripts were true and complete. The Oakland Center's transcripts appear to be complete but the Seattle Center's transcript has obviously undergone a major redaction. In general, the location of the airliner can not be determined from the Seattle Center's transcripts. Communications between the airliner and the ARINC system were also done by voice radio. Generally, the messages were then transmitted by teletype from the ARINC facility to the appropriate airline facility. However, in special cases, the airliner's voice communication were patched through the commercial telephone system to the appropriate airline facility. Both of these means were used during the hijacking. Therefore, all of the communications between the airliner to the ARINC facility and from the ARINC facility, including the phone patches, to the airliner were probably tape recorded and, in some instances, a hard copy was made by the teletype. All of the above tapes would appear to be subject to a FOIA action. But the tapes, or transcripts, of the greatest importance are those of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC center that took place from the take-off in Seattle until the airliner passed the Eugene, OR VORTAC. That includes the phone communications between the controllers that passed the airliner from one sector controller to another. Since these communications involved a major crime, the tapes and transcripts were undoubtedly preserved. In my opinion, these tapes and transcripts should be the focus of any FOIA action. The ARINC tapes and transcripts would, in my opinion, be of secondary importance here. But they probably should be included in any FOIA action. Does anyone want to pursue a FOIA action? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42271 August 16, 2013 ***Quotemrshutter4, Quote 'Thanks for that insight. Here is a question specifically for any of you who lived in the Por-Van area in 1971. Where were the local JC Penneys? A quick search reveals 2 store locations in Vancouver and 2 in Portland, but all four were built AFTER 1971. So where was the closest Penneys in the Por-Van area in 1971?' Don't know. But here's something for you KC fans, wherever you are: The closest JC Penney to where Kenny Christiansen lived is on a street he would have taken between his apartment in Sumner, WA and the SeaTac Airport. It is located near the intersection of Main and 'A' streets in Auburn, WA. The building is still there and still painted with the Penney's logo, although it has been closed for some years. At that time, the Highway 167 freeway was not in existence. So...from the part of Sumner where Kenny lived, you drive north out of town along the East Valley Road, which turns into 'A' street in Auburn. Store was near intersection of Main and A. Then you continue north along 'A' street, which turns into Central Ave in Kent. From there, you cut west up the hill and take either Pacific Highway 99 or Interstate 5 to the airport. It was the shortest, most sensible route back then. Before you start checking maps and arguing that point, you should know I've been living in this same area for more than 40 years now. Just saying. Now...this doesn't mean KC was Cooper. You could drive to a Penney's anywhere, and no one knows anyway if Cooper borrowed the tie, stole it, got it from a Goodwill or a Salvation Army store, or whatever. It's just interesting, that's all. I don't agree that the hijacker was from some place far from the Northwest. Doing this crime was dangerous enough, but to consider jumping at night over a state you've never or seldom visited doesn't make sense to me.Quote Why are you addressing mewith this? I didnt make the post - Shutter did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42272 August 16, 2013 I don't agree that the hijacker was from some place far from the Northwest. Doing this crime was dangerous enough, but to consider jumping at night over a state you've never or seldom visited doesn't make sense to me.Quote Who said he hadn't (seldom) visited? How in hell do you know? What brand and color of underwear did he wear? His favorite hooch? His dog's name? His State of birth? His girlfriend's name? Name of "that woman"? What time and day will the world end? What time and day did Creation begin? How many dogs did Thomas Jefferson own, and their names please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42273 August 16, 2013 Robert99The possibility of a Freedom of Information Act request in the Cooper case was recently raised on this thread. I am not familiar with that act and don't know how the legal aspects of it are handled. But the following is a discussion of the various channels of communication that were used during the hijacking. The NWA 305 Boeing 727 had a MINIMUM of two VHF radio transceivers for voice communications. It may have had more, but two were MANDATORY. The airliner could also receive voice communications, but not transmit, on other VHF frequencies such as the frequencies of the VOR stations used for navigation. In addition, it is very likely that the airliner could receive some voice communications through the ADF receiver (and probably receive the standard AM commercial broadcast stations as well). But there is no indication that anything mentioned in this paragraph was used for communicating with the airliner during the hijacking. During flight and ground operations, the airliner apparently used only its two VHF transceivers for communications. They would be used to communicate with the FAA Air Traffic Control system (airport towers, air traffic control centers/controllers, etc.), the ARINC (Aeronautical Radio Incorporated) system operated by the airline industry, and NWA company radio frequencies. On the last item, part of the ground communications by the airliner while on the ground in Seattle was done on the NWA company ground frequency. But the first two items are the most important. The FAA communications between the towers and air traffic control facilities were routinely tape recorded in the early 1970s. In addition to the voice communications over the radios, extensive coordination was done between controllers using a dedicated telephone system. These telephone communications were also routinely recorded. See the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center transcripts for examples of this. Following the hijacking, the Chiefs of the Seattle and Oakland ATC centers had transcripts made of their communications with the airliner and certified that those transcripts were true and complete. The Oakland Center's transcripts appear to be complete but the Seattle Center's transcript has obviously undergone a major redaction. In general, the location of the airliner can not be determined from the Seattle Center's transcripts. Communications between the airliner and the ARINC system were also done by voice radio. Generally, the messages were then transmitted by teletype from the ARINC facility to the appropriate airline facility. However, in special cases, the airliner's voice communication were patched through the commercial telephone system to the appropriate airline facility. Both of these means were used during the hijacking. Therefore, all of the communications between the airliner to the ARINC facility and from the ARINC facility, including the phone patches, to the airliner were probably tape recorded and, in some instances, a hard copy was made by the teletype. All of the above tapes would appear to be subject to a FOIA action. But the tapes, or transcripts, of the greatest importance are those of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC center that took place from the take-off in Seattle until the airliner passed the Eugene, OR VORTAC. That includes the phone communications between the controllers that passed the airliner from one sector controller to another. Since these communications involved a major crime, the tapes and transcripts were undoubtedly preserved. In my opinion, these tapes and transcripts should be the focus of any FOIA action. The ARINC tapes and transcripts would, in my opinion, be of secondary importance here. But they probably should be included in any FOIA action. Does anyone want to pursue a FOIA action? Robert99 all they have to do is black out the sections they don't want you to see if they ever released the actual transcripts. I don't think they would send anything other than what we have already seen. they will simply use this clause "sensitive security information" or the "open case" clause. you could try it though. people investigating UFO's run into this problem all the time. it's Ridiculous some of the things they send from the FOIA. (see document)"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42274 August 16, 2013 getting a Lawyer is not needed for a FOIA request. it's a waste of money IMO. What Information is Not Available under the FOIA? The FOIA provides exceptions for certain records. These include: Classified national defense and foreign relations information Internal agency rules and practices Information that is prohibited from disclosure by another law Trade secrets and other confidential business information Inter-agency or intra-agency communications that are protected by legal privileges Information involving matters of personal privacy Certain information compiled for law enforcement purposes Information relating to the supervision of financial institutions Geological information on wells What Information is Not Available under the Privacy Act? The Privacy Act also provides exceptions for certain records, including: Classified information on national security Records concerning criminal investigations Information that would identify a confidential source Do I Need a Lawyer Experienced with these Laws? A lawyer may be able to help you decide which agency would most likely have the record you are seeking to obtain. A lawyer can also help you decide under which law your request falls and may help guide you through the process of uncovering the information. I think wasting money on a Lawyer is not going to help you any further in getting information."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #42275 August 16, 2013 Quotegetting a Lawyer is not needed for a FOIA request. As far as DB Cooper I think we all know who has information...the FBI I never used a FOIA, but I have the seen results of a FOIA. Your right, be specific. (For ex.) If pages are missing from already released documents, ask for those page numbers. Don't give them a reason not to help. You can also visit the reading room at FBI headquarters in Washington DC. Below is a link to instructions on getting FBI records via FOIA. They have a phone number to call in order to find out the status of your FOIA. http://www.fbi.gov/foia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1686 1687 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 Next Page 1691 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
Robert99 37 #42262 August 16, 2013 skyjack71***Jo, Calm down. And quit trying to intimidate CCharger. You are wasting your time, the thread's time, and just making yourself look silly. Robert99 Robert, thank you for the advise and often you and I disagree, but I have never ever gone into the attack mode with you and / or with others (exception JT). I might be wasting my time, but I have had a belly full of this kind of individual in the last 6 months. If I sound silly defending the credibility of you guys and myself then so be it. You and Homid and others have done some excellent research...I do NOT want to see any of it trashed even if I do NOT agree with it all - the technical stuff I leave to you guys. I just ask stupid woman questions in that respect. My part of this is telling about the things I remember and what Duane told me. My memories do NOT mean Sxxx, but the research you guys worked hard to compile should not be made light of. Not Silly - just being protective of everything that has been accomplished on this thread. Read back from the time the man came to the thread - his motive is not good. He has put himself in CHARGE (like his handle). He is deliberately stating things in a manner that he can use to write a book or utilize the work you guys have done in a manner you will not be happy with. He is using you guys to CREATE his own version of Cooper....note how he composes his post. He makes his statements as facts - go back and note he is leading you guys and you are NOT going to be happy with the end result! What he ends up will not be conjecture - but be published or made public as FACT. This man is a TAKE CHARGE person and he has a reason to word things the way he does. He led you right into one of the posts - getting you to agree he was right. That is all it will take to discredit anything you have done and what you are really saying. This man is not one you play games with or banter with - this man will destroy everything you have ever tried to accomplish on this case. I for one respect the research you have done and do not want to see it slaughtered...everyone is entitled to an opinion but this man takes your statement and makes it his own with leading words of conviction - hence it become his words - NOT yours. Did you make your trip to WA just to have everything you have tried to accomplish - be flushed down the toilet? He does this in a very subjective way with his leading questions being used to start his conversation and his answers are interperted as fact and become fact....which he claims as his own. Jo, Your reply comes as a total shock to me. You are the same person who has called me: 1. A troll living under a bridge. 2. A phony. 3. An ass. 4. A moron. 5. A plant from the FBI to make sure the Cooper case is never solved. 6. And probably other names that I can't remember right now. Jo, Don't worry about CCharger taking over the thread. Since both you and Blevins believe that this thread couldn't exist without your guidance, I'm sure that any indication that CCharger is moving to unseat Weber/Blevins would result in a blood bath here. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42263 August 16, 2013 Robert99 ******Jo, Calm down. And quit trying to intimidate CCharger. You are wasting your time, the thread's time, and just making yourself look silly. Robert99 I don't know why she would want to intimidate me. If she knew anything about me, she would know I am impossible to intimidate. I don't pretend to have all the answers. I am here to learn and exchange ideas in a civil manner. I will continue to do that regardless of what she thinks and says. Jo Weber, AKA Mrs. Cooper, is scared to death that someone will finally discover the identity of the real D. B. Cooper and that it will NOT be Duane Weber, her deceased husband. Jo has been on a crusade for the past 17+ years to prove that Duane Weber was Cooper. Her motive for doing this remains unclear. But Jo Weber is the biggest mystery on this thread, even bigger than Cooper himself. Robert99 Quote Jo a mystery? Hardly. She deludes having control of this her thread she says she founded! As we all know we came here to attraction of Jo, that Mrs Cooper who Himmelsbach wishes would stop calling... just ignore her. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42264 August 16, 2013 georger******mrshutter4, Thanks for that insight. Here is a question specifically for any of you who lived in the Por-Van area in 1971. Where were the local JC Penneys? A quick search reveals 2 store locations in Vancouver and 2 in Portland, but all four were built AFTER 1971. So where was the closest Penneys in the Por-Van area in 1971? this would be with the assumption Cooper lived in this area correct? keep in mind the tie appears to have been used prior to this crime. Tie Tac holes are present in the tie prior to having the tie clip on it. how do we know he didn't fly into Portland under another name, or take a bus, hitchhike lol who knows......can we really assume he was from Portland/Vancouver? or do you have a different angle?Quote This brings me back to something I almost posted the other day ... Sluggo thought Cooper might have picked a place for his hijacking as far away from his home base as possible ... a section of the country in limbo (in the boondocks) with few hijackings and poor security. Snowmman then proved flight 305 was a recent addition since the August only, which began its day on the east coast. The last short flight of the day after a long day - crew tired - day before Thanksgiving - security low. I think Sluggo and Snowmman are correct. Cooper would probably not be interested in making a mess on his own door step. And the hijacking was probably planned based on the new NWA flight being a 727, a short time for the law enforcement types to react, people taking off early for Thanksgiving Day, etc.. Cooper probably recognized the opportunity that was developing for the hijacking and made the most of it. Cooper got the money and died rich but probably within 90 minutes. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42265 August 16, 2013 In light of the discussion regarding Benzedrine. Here is a link that talks about how ubiquitous it's use was in that time. It is fact that Coop had pills he said the pilots could use if tired. The only choices of stimulants in 1971 would be caffeine tablets like No Doz or amphetamines like Benzedrine. Gray and Smith both claim that it was Benzedrine. Therefore I conclude it was probably Benzedrine. Can I prove it? No. It is an educated guess, but a safe bet in my opinion. http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/04/the-lost-world-of-benzedrine/255904/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42266 August 16, 2013 Robert99 Jo Weber, AKA Mrs. Cooper, is scared to death that someone will finally discover the identity of the real D. B. Cooper and that it will NOT be Duane Weber, her deceased husband. Jo has been on a crusade for the past 17+ years to prove that Duane Weber was Cooper. Her motive for doing this remains unclear. But Jo Weber is the biggest mystery on this thread, even bigger than Cooper himself. Robert99 Robert go back and read the post I made just before this one. Actually read it and digest it. Read it throughly. I am absolutely NOT afraid of anyone finding and proving who Cooper was. It is easy to figure out who wasn't Cooper when certain suspects come up - but the FBI has NOT been able to definitely rule out Weber, with the information they have on Cooper or Weber or Collins. The problem with Weber is he was just OFF the charts for 6 yrs - the FBI has NO explanation for that - no prison records, no employment records - Zilch! His associates during that time also have Zilch on file. Ed Huran and Tommy Gunn - they were real people just like Duane - but they didn't exist from 1962 to 1966....so what were they involved in and did Duane use the knowledge he acquired to commit the crime of the century - if he did their hands are tied. If the FBI could prove Weber was NOT Cooper - don't you think they would have provided me with that infomation a long time ago to make me go away! They haven't because they can't! Sure they could say prints don't match (if they had a decent set for Cooper) or the DNA doesn't match (if they knew they had Cooper's DNA). This is the problem - if the DNA and prints were viable and they did NOT belong to Weber - who did they belong to? Evidently someone Duane knew and was close to - otherwise how did Duane end up with his plane ticket, the bank bag and why did he confess to a crime that I knew little to nothing about. YOU see I cannot erase my memory no matter how hard I try. I held that plane ticket in my hand and I held the bank bag in my hand....if Duane was NOT Dan Cooper as he claimed then who was Duane in contact with during those yrs. Did Duane find that stuff in a shed he cleaned out in AL or FL? Was the man already dead and Duane obviously knew what he had. That just doesn't fit. Since he took me on that trip in 1979 and the things he showed me and told me - then fit with the things that he did between 1990 and 1995 culminating with his saying "I'mmm Dannn Cooooper!" There are only 2 conclusions - Duane was Cooper or he was with him and buried him. Frankly I believe that if they ever find out who Cooper was - it will be Duane Weber or someone he was close to. Face it if there was a man on the ground and one in the air - that would explain Duane's obsession with the communications part of it and all those towers he took me to all in the flight path. How he knew every airstrip, every grave yard, the power lines, the pipelines, the roadway with no map, every tower eery stream of water. No man knows all of that stuff if he did NOT live there for a pretty decent period of time. Duane named people - the names of which I would now have to look up...because my memory is starting to fade - and names & numbers seem to be fading pretty fast.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42267 August 16, 2013 That's good info. Thanks. I think I am going to contact JC Penneys corporate and see if they have that info. Here is another good link regarding amphetamines circa 1971. http://blackpoppymag.wordpress.com/substances/dexedrine-dexamphetamine/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42268 August 16, 2013 One of the names was something like Neustel, Nuetel or a sound alike names such as Knutson. Duane talked about this man in WA. He even pointed to an area the man lived in. he also told me he had a friend buried in a cemetery there - but did NOT tell me the name. I do NOT know what name to look under...and uncertain where the cememtery was - just that it was in Washougal, but the one I found did not look like the one I saw in 1979 - so there is still a puzzle there and why I want to go back so very very much. Finding that grave and who Duane knew is very important just to me and for no other reason than just knowing. If there was 2 men involved - did Duane bury him after he died of his injuries - or did they both leave alive. How do 2 people keep a secret - I guess if you knew you would spend the rest of your life in prison it is pretty easy! I may never know the truth, but I feel if I went back to WA one more time and had individuals to do some research - I might find out who Duane KNEW and who was buried there...I believe there could be two bodies in one grave! Was there a funeral scheduled in the Washougal area for the 24th or 25th ot 26th. Was a grave dug and covered awaiting a funeral - it would have been easy to have put a body in a grave that had been dug and put a light layer of dirt over it...the casket of the other person would have been lowered without their even looking to see if the grave had been tampered with. If the area was a place Duane his friend knew very well it would not have been a problem at all. His voice choked and he said no more on the subject. This is why I feel confidnet about Duane being Cooper being on the ground, but woudl NOT explane his ning mare - in 1977. Maybe why he had to go back to feel whole agan. Duane was a sentimental jerk. I is just how he would have andled it. I they found Cooper they would go lookin for the money and or anyone the jumper knew. It is the only other senario that fit ssith the situation. Meds are takin g affect so I am going to bed. Have fun, but remember what I have told you.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42269 August 16, 2013 skyjack71 One of the names was something like Neustel, Nuetel or a sound alike names such as Knutson. Quote Nuttal? as in George Nuttal ? I think your mind is playing tricks on you. How about Abraham Lincoln? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42270 August 16, 2013 The possibility of a Freedom of Information Act request in the Cooper case was recently raised on this thread. I am not familiar with that act and don't know how the legal aspects of it are handled. But the following is a discussion of the various channels of communication that were used during the hijacking. The NWA 305 Boeing 727 had a MINIMUM of two VHF radio transceivers for voice communications. It may have had more, but two were MANDATORY. The airliner could also receive voice communications, but not transmit, on other VHF frequencies such as the frequencies of the VOR stations used for navigation. In addition, it is very likely that the airliner could receive some voice communications through the ADF receiver (and probably receive the standard AM commercial broadcast stations as well). But there is no indication that anything mentioned in this paragraph was used for communicating with the airliner during the hijacking. During flight and ground operations, the airliner apparently used only its two VHF transceivers for communications. They would be used to communicate with the FAA Air Traffic Control system (airport towers, air traffic control centers/controllers, etc.), the ARINC (Aeronautical Radio Incorporated) system operated by the airline industry, and NWA company radio frequencies. On the last item, part of the ground communications by the airliner while on the ground in Seattle was done on the NWA company ground frequency. But the first two items are the most important. The FAA communications between the towers and air traffic control facilities were routinely tape recorded in the early 1970s. In addition to the voice communications over the radios, extensive coordination was done between controllers using a dedicated telephone system. These telephone communications were also routinely recorded. See the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center transcripts for examples of this. Following the hijacking, the Chiefs of the Seattle and Oakland ATC centers had transcripts made of their communications with the airliner and certified that those transcripts were true and complete. The Oakland Center's transcripts appear to be complete but the Seattle Center's transcript has obviously undergone a major redaction. In general, the location of the airliner can not be determined from the Seattle Center's transcripts. Communications between the airliner and the ARINC system were also done by voice radio. Generally, the messages were then transmitted by teletype from the ARINC facility to the appropriate airline facility. However, in special cases, the airliner's voice communication were patched through the commercial telephone system to the appropriate airline facility. Both of these means were used during the hijacking. Therefore, all of the communications between the airliner to the ARINC facility and from the ARINC facility, including the phone patches, to the airliner were probably tape recorded and, in some instances, a hard copy was made by the teletype. All of the above tapes would appear to be subject to a FOIA action. But the tapes, or transcripts, of the greatest importance are those of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC center that took place from the take-off in Seattle until the airliner passed the Eugene, OR VORTAC. That includes the phone communications between the controllers that passed the airliner from one sector controller to another. Since these communications involved a major crime, the tapes and transcripts were undoubtedly preserved. In my opinion, these tapes and transcripts should be the focus of any FOIA action. The ARINC tapes and transcripts would, in my opinion, be of secondary importance here. But they probably should be included in any FOIA action. Does anyone want to pursue a FOIA action? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42271 August 16, 2013 ***Quotemrshutter4, Quote 'Thanks for that insight. Here is a question specifically for any of you who lived in the Por-Van area in 1971. Where were the local JC Penneys? A quick search reveals 2 store locations in Vancouver and 2 in Portland, but all four were built AFTER 1971. So where was the closest Penneys in the Por-Van area in 1971?' Don't know. But here's something for you KC fans, wherever you are: The closest JC Penney to where Kenny Christiansen lived is on a street he would have taken between his apartment in Sumner, WA and the SeaTac Airport. It is located near the intersection of Main and 'A' streets in Auburn, WA. The building is still there and still painted with the Penney's logo, although it has been closed for some years. At that time, the Highway 167 freeway was not in existence. So...from the part of Sumner where Kenny lived, you drive north out of town along the East Valley Road, which turns into 'A' street in Auburn. Store was near intersection of Main and A. Then you continue north along 'A' street, which turns into Central Ave in Kent. From there, you cut west up the hill and take either Pacific Highway 99 or Interstate 5 to the airport. It was the shortest, most sensible route back then. Before you start checking maps and arguing that point, you should know I've been living in this same area for more than 40 years now. Just saying. Now...this doesn't mean KC was Cooper. You could drive to a Penney's anywhere, and no one knows anyway if Cooper borrowed the tie, stole it, got it from a Goodwill or a Salvation Army store, or whatever. It's just interesting, that's all. I don't agree that the hijacker was from some place far from the Northwest. Doing this crime was dangerous enough, but to consider jumping at night over a state you've never or seldom visited doesn't make sense to me.Quote Why are you addressing mewith this? I didnt make the post - Shutter did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42272 August 16, 2013 I don't agree that the hijacker was from some place far from the Northwest. Doing this crime was dangerous enough, but to consider jumping at night over a state you've never or seldom visited doesn't make sense to me.Quote Who said he hadn't (seldom) visited? How in hell do you know? What brand and color of underwear did he wear? His favorite hooch? His dog's name? His State of birth? His girlfriend's name? Name of "that woman"? What time and day will the world end? What time and day did Creation begin? How many dogs did Thomas Jefferson own, and their names please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42273 August 16, 2013 Robert99The possibility of a Freedom of Information Act request in the Cooper case was recently raised on this thread. I am not familiar with that act and don't know how the legal aspects of it are handled. But the following is a discussion of the various channels of communication that were used during the hijacking. The NWA 305 Boeing 727 had a MINIMUM of two VHF radio transceivers for voice communications. It may have had more, but two were MANDATORY. The airliner could also receive voice communications, but not transmit, on other VHF frequencies such as the frequencies of the VOR stations used for navigation. In addition, it is very likely that the airliner could receive some voice communications through the ADF receiver (and probably receive the standard AM commercial broadcast stations as well). But there is no indication that anything mentioned in this paragraph was used for communicating with the airliner during the hijacking. During flight and ground operations, the airliner apparently used only its two VHF transceivers for communications. They would be used to communicate with the FAA Air Traffic Control system (airport towers, air traffic control centers/controllers, etc.), the ARINC (Aeronautical Radio Incorporated) system operated by the airline industry, and NWA company radio frequencies. On the last item, part of the ground communications by the airliner while on the ground in Seattle was done on the NWA company ground frequency. But the first two items are the most important. The FAA communications between the towers and air traffic control facilities were routinely tape recorded in the early 1970s. In addition to the voice communications over the radios, extensive coordination was done between controllers using a dedicated telephone system. These telephone communications were also routinely recorded. See the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center transcripts for examples of this. Following the hijacking, the Chiefs of the Seattle and Oakland ATC centers had transcripts made of their communications with the airliner and certified that those transcripts were true and complete. The Oakland Center's transcripts appear to be complete but the Seattle Center's transcript has obviously undergone a major redaction. In general, the location of the airliner can not be determined from the Seattle Center's transcripts. Communications between the airliner and the ARINC system were also done by voice radio. Generally, the messages were then transmitted by teletype from the ARINC facility to the appropriate airline facility. However, in special cases, the airliner's voice communication were patched through the commercial telephone system to the appropriate airline facility. Both of these means were used during the hijacking. Therefore, all of the communications between the airliner to the ARINC facility and from the ARINC facility, including the phone patches, to the airliner were probably tape recorded and, in some instances, a hard copy was made by the teletype. All of the above tapes would appear to be subject to a FOIA action. But the tapes, or transcripts, of the greatest importance are those of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC center that took place from the take-off in Seattle until the airliner passed the Eugene, OR VORTAC. That includes the phone communications between the controllers that passed the airliner from one sector controller to another. Since these communications involved a major crime, the tapes and transcripts were undoubtedly preserved. In my opinion, these tapes and transcripts should be the focus of any FOIA action. The ARINC tapes and transcripts would, in my opinion, be of secondary importance here. But they probably should be included in any FOIA action. Does anyone want to pursue a FOIA action? Robert99 all they have to do is black out the sections they don't want you to see if they ever released the actual transcripts. I don't think they would send anything other than what we have already seen. they will simply use this clause "sensitive security information" or the "open case" clause. you could try it though. people investigating UFO's run into this problem all the time. it's Ridiculous some of the things they send from the FOIA. (see document)"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42274 August 16, 2013 getting a Lawyer is not needed for a FOIA request. it's a waste of money IMO. What Information is Not Available under the FOIA? The FOIA provides exceptions for certain records. These include: Classified national defense and foreign relations information Internal agency rules and practices Information that is prohibited from disclosure by another law Trade secrets and other confidential business information Inter-agency or intra-agency communications that are protected by legal privileges Information involving matters of personal privacy Certain information compiled for law enforcement purposes Information relating to the supervision of financial institutions Geological information on wells What Information is Not Available under the Privacy Act? The Privacy Act also provides exceptions for certain records, including: Classified information on national security Records concerning criminal investigations Information that would identify a confidential source Do I Need a Lawyer Experienced with these Laws? A lawyer may be able to help you decide which agency would most likely have the record you are seeking to obtain. A lawyer can also help you decide under which law your request falls and may help guide you through the process of uncovering the information. I think wasting money on a Lawyer is not going to help you any further in getting information."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #42275 August 16, 2013 Quotegetting a Lawyer is not needed for a FOIA request. As far as DB Cooper I think we all know who has information...the FBI I never used a FOIA, but I have the seen results of a FOIA. Your right, be specific. (For ex.) If pages are missing from already released documents, ask for those page numbers. Don't give them a reason not to help. You can also visit the reading room at FBI headquarters in Washington DC. Below is a link to instructions on getting FBI records via FOIA. They have a phone number to call in order to find out the status of your FOIA. http://www.fbi.gov/foia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1686 1687 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 Next Page 1691 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
CCharger 0 #42265 August 16, 2013 In light of the discussion regarding Benzedrine. Here is a link that talks about how ubiquitous it's use was in that time. It is fact that Coop had pills he said the pilots could use if tired. The only choices of stimulants in 1971 would be caffeine tablets like No Doz or amphetamines like Benzedrine. Gray and Smith both claim that it was Benzedrine. Therefore I conclude it was probably Benzedrine. Can I prove it? No. It is an educated guess, but a safe bet in my opinion. http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/04/the-lost-world-of-benzedrine/255904/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42266 August 16, 2013 Robert99 Jo Weber, AKA Mrs. Cooper, is scared to death that someone will finally discover the identity of the real D. B. Cooper and that it will NOT be Duane Weber, her deceased husband. Jo has been on a crusade for the past 17+ years to prove that Duane Weber was Cooper. Her motive for doing this remains unclear. But Jo Weber is the biggest mystery on this thread, even bigger than Cooper himself. Robert99 Robert go back and read the post I made just before this one. Actually read it and digest it. Read it throughly. I am absolutely NOT afraid of anyone finding and proving who Cooper was. It is easy to figure out who wasn't Cooper when certain suspects come up - but the FBI has NOT been able to definitely rule out Weber, with the information they have on Cooper or Weber or Collins. The problem with Weber is he was just OFF the charts for 6 yrs - the FBI has NO explanation for that - no prison records, no employment records - Zilch! His associates during that time also have Zilch on file. Ed Huran and Tommy Gunn - they were real people just like Duane - but they didn't exist from 1962 to 1966....so what were they involved in and did Duane use the knowledge he acquired to commit the crime of the century - if he did their hands are tied. If the FBI could prove Weber was NOT Cooper - don't you think they would have provided me with that infomation a long time ago to make me go away! They haven't because they can't! Sure they could say prints don't match (if they had a decent set for Cooper) or the DNA doesn't match (if they knew they had Cooper's DNA). This is the problem - if the DNA and prints were viable and they did NOT belong to Weber - who did they belong to? Evidently someone Duane knew and was close to - otherwise how did Duane end up with his plane ticket, the bank bag and why did he confess to a crime that I knew little to nothing about. YOU see I cannot erase my memory no matter how hard I try. I held that plane ticket in my hand and I held the bank bag in my hand....if Duane was NOT Dan Cooper as he claimed then who was Duane in contact with during those yrs. Did Duane find that stuff in a shed he cleaned out in AL or FL? Was the man already dead and Duane obviously knew what he had. That just doesn't fit. Since he took me on that trip in 1979 and the things he showed me and told me - then fit with the things that he did between 1990 and 1995 culminating with his saying "I'mmm Dannn Cooooper!" There are only 2 conclusions - Duane was Cooper or he was with him and buried him. Frankly I believe that if they ever find out who Cooper was - it will be Duane Weber or someone he was close to. Face it if there was a man on the ground and one in the air - that would explain Duane's obsession with the communications part of it and all those towers he took me to all in the flight path. How he knew every airstrip, every grave yard, the power lines, the pipelines, the roadway with no map, every tower eery stream of water. No man knows all of that stuff if he did NOT live there for a pretty decent period of time. Duane named people - the names of which I would now have to look up...because my memory is starting to fade - and names & numbers seem to be fading pretty fast.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCharger 0 #42267 August 16, 2013 That's good info. Thanks. I think I am going to contact JC Penneys corporate and see if they have that info. Here is another good link regarding amphetamines circa 1971. http://blackpoppymag.wordpress.com/substances/dexedrine-dexamphetamine/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42268 August 16, 2013 One of the names was something like Neustel, Nuetel or a sound alike names such as Knutson. Duane talked about this man in WA. He even pointed to an area the man lived in. he also told me he had a friend buried in a cemetery there - but did NOT tell me the name. I do NOT know what name to look under...and uncertain where the cememtery was - just that it was in Washougal, but the one I found did not look like the one I saw in 1979 - so there is still a puzzle there and why I want to go back so very very much. Finding that grave and who Duane knew is very important just to me and for no other reason than just knowing. If there was 2 men involved - did Duane bury him after he died of his injuries - or did they both leave alive. How do 2 people keep a secret - I guess if you knew you would spend the rest of your life in prison it is pretty easy! I may never know the truth, but I feel if I went back to WA one more time and had individuals to do some research - I might find out who Duane KNEW and who was buried there...I believe there could be two bodies in one grave! Was there a funeral scheduled in the Washougal area for the 24th or 25th ot 26th. Was a grave dug and covered awaiting a funeral - it would have been easy to have put a body in a grave that had been dug and put a light layer of dirt over it...the casket of the other person would have been lowered without their even looking to see if the grave had been tampered with. If the area was a place Duane his friend knew very well it would not have been a problem at all. His voice choked and he said no more on the subject. This is why I feel confidnet about Duane being Cooper being on the ground, but woudl NOT explane his ning mare - in 1977. Maybe why he had to go back to feel whole agan. Duane was a sentimental jerk. I is just how he would have andled it. I they found Cooper they would go lookin for the money and or anyone the jumper knew. It is the only other senario that fit ssith the situation. Meds are takin g affect so I am going to bed. Have fun, but remember what I have told you.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42269 August 16, 2013 skyjack71 One of the names was something like Neustel, Nuetel or a sound alike names such as Knutson. Quote Nuttal? as in George Nuttal ? I think your mind is playing tricks on you. How about Abraham Lincoln? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42270 August 16, 2013 The possibility of a Freedom of Information Act request in the Cooper case was recently raised on this thread. I am not familiar with that act and don't know how the legal aspects of it are handled. But the following is a discussion of the various channels of communication that were used during the hijacking. The NWA 305 Boeing 727 had a MINIMUM of two VHF radio transceivers for voice communications. It may have had more, but two were MANDATORY. The airliner could also receive voice communications, but not transmit, on other VHF frequencies such as the frequencies of the VOR stations used for navigation. In addition, it is very likely that the airliner could receive some voice communications through the ADF receiver (and probably receive the standard AM commercial broadcast stations as well). But there is no indication that anything mentioned in this paragraph was used for communicating with the airliner during the hijacking. During flight and ground operations, the airliner apparently used only its two VHF transceivers for communications. They would be used to communicate with the FAA Air Traffic Control system (airport towers, air traffic control centers/controllers, etc.), the ARINC (Aeronautical Radio Incorporated) system operated by the airline industry, and NWA company radio frequencies. On the last item, part of the ground communications by the airliner while on the ground in Seattle was done on the NWA company ground frequency. But the first two items are the most important. The FAA communications between the towers and air traffic control facilities were routinely tape recorded in the early 1970s. In addition to the voice communications over the radios, extensive coordination was done between controllers using a dedicated telephone system. These telephone communications were also routinely recorded. See the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center transcripts for examples of this. Following the hijacking, the Chiefs of the Seattle and Oakland ATC centers had transcripts made of their communications with the airliner and certified that those transcripts were true and complete. The Oakland Center's transcripts appear to be complete but the Seattle Center's transcript has obviously undergone a major redaction. In general, the location of the airliner can not be determined from the Seattle Center's transcripts. Communications between the airliner and the ARINC system were also done by voice radio. Generally, the messages were then transmitted by teletype from the ARINC facility to the appropriate airline facility. However, in special cases, the airliner's voice communication were patched through the commercial telephone system to the appropriate airline facility. Both of these means were used during the hijacking. Therefore, all of the communications between the airliner to the ARINC facility and from the ARINC facility, including the phone patches, to the airliner were probably tape recorded and, in some instances, a hard copy was made by the teletype. All of the above tapes would appear to be subject to a FOIA action. But the tapes, or transcripts, of the greatest importance are those of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC center that took place from the take-off in Seattle until the airliner passed the Eugene, OR VORTAC. That includes the phone communications between the controllers that passed the airliner from one sector controller to another. Since these communications involved a major crime, the tapes and transcripts were undoubtedly preserved. In my opinion, these tapes and transcripts should be the focus of any FOIA action. The ARINC tapes and transcripts would, in my opinion, be of secondary importance here. But they probably should be included in any FOIA action. Does anyone want to pursue a FOIA action? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42271 August 16, 2013 ***Quotemrshutter4, Quote 'Thanks for that insight. Here is a question specifically for any of you who lived in the Por-Van area in 1971. Where were the local JC Penneys? A quick search reveals 2 store locations in Vancouver and 2 in Portland, but all four were built AFTER 1971. So where was the closest Penneys in the Por-Van area in 1971?' Don't know. But here's something for you KC fans, wherever you are: The closest JC Penney to where Kenny Christiansen lived is on a street he would have taken between his apartment in Sumner, WA and the SeaTac Airport. It is located near the intersection of Main and 'A' streets in Auburn, WA. The building is still there and still painted with the Penney's logo, although it has been closed for some years. At that time, the Highway 167 freeway was not in existence. So...from the part of Sumner where Kenny lived, you drive north out of town along the East Valley Road, which turns into 'A' street in Auburn. Store was near intersection of Main and A. Then you continue north along 'A' street, which turns into Central Ave in Kent. From there, you cut west up the hill and take either Pacific Highway 99 or Interstate 5 to the airport. It was the shortest, most sensible route back then. Before you start checking maps and arguing that point, you should know I've been living in this same area for more than 40 years now. Just saying. Now...this doesn't mean KC was Cooper. You could drive to a Penney's anywhere, and no one knows anyway if Cooper borrowed the tie, stole it, got it from a Goodwill or a Salvation Army store, or whatever. It's just interesting, that's all. I don't agree that the hijacker was from some place far from the Northwest. Doing this crime was dangerous enough, but to consider jumping at night over a state you've never or seldom visited doesn't make sense to me.Quote Why are you addressing mewith this? I didnt make the post - Shutter did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42272 August 16, 2013 I don't agree that the hijacker was from some place far from the Northwest. Doing this crime was dangerous enough, but to consider jumping at night over a state you've never or seldom visited doesn't make sense to me.Quote Who said he hadn't (seldom) visited? How in hell do you know? What brand and color of underwear did he wear? His favorite hooch? His dog's name? His State of birth? His girlfriend's name? Name of "that woman"? What time and day will the world end? What time and day did Creation begin? How many dogs did Thomas Jefferson own, and their names please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42273 August 16, 2013 Robert99The possibility of a Freedom of Information Act request in the Cooper case was recently raised on this thread. I am not familiar with that act and don't know how the legal aspects of it are handled. But the following is a discussion of the various channels of communication that were used during the hijacking. The NWA 305 Boeing 727 had a MINIMUM of two VHF radio transceivers for voice communications. It may have had more, but two were MANDATORY. The airliner could also receive voice communications, but not transmit, on other VHF frequencies such as the frequencies of the VOR stations used for navigation. In addition, it is very likely that the airliner could receive some voice communications through the ADF receiver (and probably receive the standard AM commercial broadcast stations as well). But there is no indication that anything mentioned in this paragraph was used for communicating with the airliner during the hijacking. During flight and ground operations, the airliner apparently used only its two VHF transceivers for communications. They would be used to communicate with the FAA Air Traffic Control system (airport towers, air traffic control centers/controllers, etc.), the ARINC (Aeronautical Radio Incorporated) system operated by the airline industry, and NWA company radio frequencies. On the last item, part of the ground communications by the airliner while on the ground in Seattle was done on the NWA company ground frequency. But the first two items are the most important. The FAA communications between the towers and air traffic control facilities were routinely tape recorded in the early 1970s. In addition to the voice communications over the radios, extensive coordination was done between controllers using a dedicated telephone system. These telephone communications were also routinely recorded. See the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center transcripts for examples of this. Following the hijacking, the Chiefs of the Seattle and Oakland ATC centers had transcripts made of their communications with the airliner and certified that those transcripts were true and complete. The Oakland Center's transcripts appear to be complete but the Seattle Center's transcript has obviously undergone a major redaction. In general, the location of the airliner can not be determined from the Seattle Center's transcripts. Communications between the airliner and the ARINC system were also done by voice radio. Generally, the messages were then transmitted by teletype from the ARINC facility to the appropriate airline facility. However, in special cases, the airliner's voice communication were patched through the commercial telephone system to the appropriate airline facility. Both of these means were used during the hijacking. Therefore, all of the communications between the airliner to the ARINC facility and from the ARINC facility, including the phone patches, to the airliner were probably tape recorded and, in some instances, a hard copy was made by the teletype. All of the above tapes would appear to be subject to a FOIA action. But the tapes, or transcripts, of the greatest importance are those of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC center that took place from the take-off in Seattle until the airliner passed the Eugene, OR VORTAC. That includes the phone communications between the controllers that passed the airliner from one sector controller to another. Since these communications involved a major crime, the tapes and transcripts were undoubtedly preserved. In my opinion, these tapes and transcripts should be the focus of any FOIA action. The ARINC tapes and transcripts would, in my opinion, be of secondary importance here. But they probably should be included in any FOIA action. Does anyone want to pursue a FOIA action? Robert99 all they have to do is black out the sections they don't want you to see if they ever released the actual transcripts. I don't think they would send anything other than what we have already seen. they will simply use this clause "sensitive security information" or the "open case" clause. you could try it though. people investigating UFO's run into this problem all the time. it's Ridiculous some of the things they send from the FOIA. (see document)"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42274 August 16, 2013 getting a Lawyer is not needed for a FOIA request. it's a waste of money IMO. What Information is Not Available under the FOIA? The FOIA provides exceptions for certain records. These include: Classified national defense and foreign relations information Internal agency rules and practices Information that is prohibited from disclosure by another law Trade secrets and other confidential business information Inter-agency or intra-agency communications that are protected by legal privileges Information involving matters of personal privacy Certain information compiled for law enforcement purposes Information relating to the supervision of financial institutions Geological information on wells What Information is Not Available under the Privacy Act? The Privacy Act also provides exceptions for certain records, including: Classified information on national security Records concerning criminal investigations Information that would identify a confidential source Do I Need a Lawyer Experienced with these Laws? A lawyer may be able to help you decide which agency would most likely have the record you are seeking to obtain. A lawyer can also help you decide under which law your request falls and may help guide you through the process of uncovering the information. I think wasting money on a Lawyer is not going to help you any further in getting information."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #42275 August 16, 2013 Quotegetting a Lawyer is not needed for a FOIA request. As far as DB Cooper I think we all know who has information...the FBI I never used a FOIA, but I have the seen results of a FOIA. Your right, be specific. (For ex.) If pages are missing from already released documents, ask for those page numbers. Don't give them a reason not to help. You can also visit the reading room at FBI headquarters in Washington DC. Below is a link to instructions on getting FBI records via FOIA. They have a phone number to call in order to find out the status of your FOIA. http://www.fbi.gov/foia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1686 1687 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 Next Page 1691 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
Robert99 37 #42270 August 16, 2013 The possibility of a Freedom of Information Act request in the Cooper case was recently raised on this thread. I am not familiar with that act and don't know how the legal aspects of it are handled. But the following is a discussion of the various channels of communication that were used during the hijacking. The NWA 305 Boeing 727 had a MINIMUM of two VHF radio transceivers for voice communications. It may have had more, but two were MANDATORY. The airliner could also receive voice communications, but not transmit, on other VHF frequencies such as the frequencies of the VOR stations used for navigation. In addition, it is very likely that the airliner could receive some voice communications through the ADF receiver (and probably receive the standard AM commercial broadcast stations as well). But there is no indication that anything mentioned in this paragraph was used for communicating with the airliner during the hijacking. During flight and ground operations, the airliner apparently used only its two VHF transceivers for communications. They would be used to communicate with the FAA Air Traffic Control system (airport towers, air traffic control centers/controllers, etc.), the ARINC (Aeronautical Radio Incorporated) system operated by the airline industry, and NWA company radio frequencies. On the last item, part of the ground communications by the airliner while on the ground in Seattle was done on the NWA company ground frequency. But the first two items are the most important. The FAA communications between the towers and air traffic control facilities were routinely tape recorded in the early 1970s. In addition to the voice communications over the radios, extensive coordination was done between controllers using a dedicated telephone system. These telephone communications were also routinely recorded. See the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center transcripts for examples of this. Following the hijacking, the Chiefs of the Seattle and Oakland ATC centers had transcripts made of their communications with the airliner and certified that those transcripts were true and complete. The Oakland Center's transcripts appear to be complete but the Seattle Center's transcript has obviously undergone a major redaction. In general, the location of the airliner can not be determined from the Seattle Center's transcripts. Communications between the airliner and the ARINC system were also done by voice radio. Generally, the messages were then transmitted by teletype from the ARINC facility to the appropriate airline facility. However, in special cases, the airliner's voice communication were patched through the commercial telephone system to the appropriate airline facility. Both of these means were used during the hijacking. Therefore, all of the communications between the airliner to the ARINC facility and from the ARINC facility, including the phone patches, to the airliner were probably tape recorded and, in some instances, a hard copy was made by the teletype. All of the above tapes would appear to be subject to a FOIA action. But the tapes, or transcripts, of the greatest importance are those of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC center that took place from the take-off in Seattle until the airliner passed the Eugene, OR VORTAC. That includes the phone communications between the controllers that passed the airliner from one sector controller to another. Since these communications involved a major crime, the tapes and transcripts were undoubtedly preserved. In my opinion, these tapes and transcripts should be the focus of any FOIA action. The ARINC tapes and transcripts would, in my opinion, be of secondary importance here. But they probably should be included in any FOIA action. Does anyone want to pursue a FOIA action? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42271 August 16, 2013 ***Quotemrshutter4, Quote 'Thanks for that insight. Here is a question specifically for any of you who lived in the Por-Van area in 1971. Where were the local JC Penneys? A quick search reveals 2 store locations in Vancouver and 2 in Portland, but all four were built AFTER 1971. So where was the closest Penneys in the Por-Van area in 1971?' Don't know. But here's something for you KC fans, wherever you are: The closest JC Penney to where Kenny Christiansen lived is on a street he would have taken between his apartment in Sumner, WA and the SeaTac Airport. It is located near the intersection of Main and 'A' streets in Auburn, WA. The building is still there and still painted with the Penney's logo, although it has been closed for some years. At that time, the Highway 167 freeway was not in existence. So...from the part of Sumner where Kenny lived, you drive north out of town along the East Valley Road, which turns into 'A' street in Auburn. Store was near intersection of Main and A. Then you continue north along 'A' street, which turns into Central Ave in Kent. From there, you cut west up the hill and take either Pacific Highway 99 or Interstate 5 to the airport. It was the shortest, most sensible route back then. Before you start checking maps and arguing that point, you should know I've been living in this same area for more than 40 years now. Just saying. Now...this doesn't mean KC was Cooper. You could drive to a Penney's anywhere, and no one knows anyway if Cooper borrowed the tie, stole it, got it from a Goodwill or a Salvation Army store, or whatever. It's just interesting, that's all. I don't agree that the hijacker was from some place far from the Northwest. Doing this crime was dangerous enough, but to consider jumping at night over a state you've never or seldom visited doesn't make sense to me.Quote Why are you addressing mewith this? I didnt make the post - Shutter did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42272 August 16, 2013 I don't agree that the hijacker was from some place far from the Northwest. Doing this crime was dangerous enough, but to consider jumping at night over a state you've never or seldom visited doesn't make sense to me.Quote Who said he hadn't (seldom) visited? How in hell do you know? What brand and color of underwear did he wear? His favorite hooch? His dog's name? His State of birth? His girlfriend's name? Name of "that woman"? What time and day will the world end? What time and day did Creation begin? How many dogs did Thomas Jefferson own, and their names please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42273 August 16, 2013 Robert99The possibility of a Freedom of Information Act request in the Cooper case was recently raised on this thread. I am not familiar with that act and don't know how the legal aspects of it are handled. But the following is a discussion of the various channels of communication that were used during the hijacking. The NWA 305 Boeing 727 had a MINIMUM of two VHF radio transceivers for voice communications. It may have had more, but two were MANDATORY. The airliner could also receive voice communications, but not transmit, on other VHF frequencies such as the frequencies of the VOR stations used for navigation. In addition, it is very likely that the airliner could receive some voice communications through the ADF receiver (and probably receive the standard AM commercial broadcast stations as well). But there is no indication that anything mentioned in this paragraph was used for communicating with the airliner during the hijacking. During flight and ground operations, the airliner apparently used only its two VHF transceivers for communications. They would be used to communicate with the FAA Air Traffic Control system (airport towers, air traffic control centers/controllers, etc.), the ARINC (Aeronautical Radio Incorporated) system operated by the airline industry, and NWA company radio frequencies. On the last item, part of the ground communications by the airliner while on the ground in Seattle was done on the NWA company ground frequency. But the first two items are the most important. The FAA communications between the towers and air traffic control facilities were routinely tape recorded in the early 1970s. In addition to the voice communications over the radios, extensive coordination was done between controllers using a dedicated telephone system. These telephone communications were also routinely recorded. See the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center transcripts for examples of this. Following the hijacking, the Chiefs of the Seattle and Oakland ATC centers had transcripts made of their communications with the airliner and certified that those transcripts were true and complete. The Oakland Center's transcripts appear to be complete but the Seattle Center's transcript has obviously undergone a major redaction. In general, the location of the airliner can not be determined from the Seattle Center's transcripts. Communications between the airliner and the ARINC system were also done by voice radio. Generally, the messages were then transmitted by teletype from the ARINC facility to the appropriate airline facility. However, in special cases, the airliner's voice communication were patched through the commercial telephone system to the appropriate airline facility. Both of these means were used during the hijacking. Therefore, all of the communications between the airliner to the ARINC facility and from the ARINC facility, including the phone patches, to the airliner were probably tape recorded and, in some instances, a hard copy was made by the teletype. All of the above tapes would appear to be subject to a FOIA action. But the tapes, or transcripts, of the greatest importance are those of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC center that took place from the take-off in Seattle until the airliner passed the Eugene, OR VORTAC. That includes the phone communications between the controllers that passed the airliner from one sector controller to another. Since these communications involved a major crime, the tapes and transcripts were undoubtedly preserved. In my opinion, these tapes and transcripts should be the focus of any FOIA action. The ARINC tapes and transcripts would, in my opinion, be of secondary importance here. But they probably should be included in any FOIA action. Does anyone want to pursue a FOIA action? Robert99 all they have to do is black out the sections they don't want you to see if they ever released the actual transcripts. I don't think they would send anything other than what we have already seen. they will simply use this clause "sensitive security information" or the "open case" clause. you could try it though. people investigating UFO's run into this problem all the time. it's Ridiculous some of the things they send from the FOIA. (see document)"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42274 August 16, 2013 getting a Lawyer is not needed for a FOIA request. it's a waste of money IMO. What Information is Not Available under the FOIA? The FOIA provides exceptions for certain records. These include: Classified national defense and foreign relations information Internal agency rules and practices Information that is prohibited from disclosure by another law Trade secrets and other confidential business information Inter-agency or intra-agency communications that are protected by legal privileges Information involving matters of personal privacy Certain information compiled for law enforcement purposes Information relating to the supervision of financial institutions Geological information on wells What Information is Not Available under the Privacy Act? The Privacy Act also provides exceptions for certain records, including: Classified information on national security Records concerning criminal investigations Information that would identify a confidential source Do I Need a Lawyer Experienced with these Laws? A lawyer may be able to help you decide which agency would most likely have the record you are seeking to obtain. A lawyer can also help you decide under which law your request falls and may help guide you through the process of uncovering the information. I think wasting money on a Lawyer is not going to help you any further in getting information."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #42275 August 16, 2013 Quotegetting a Lawyer is not needed for a FOIA request. As far as DB Cooper I think we all know who has information...the FBI I never used a FOIA, but I have the seen results of a FOIA. Your right, be specific. (For ex.) If pages are missing from already released documents, ask for those page numbers. Don't give them a reason not to help. You can also visit the reading room at FBI headquarters in Washington DC. Below is a link to instructions on getting FBI records via FOIA. They have a phone number to call in order to find out the status of your FOIA. http://www.fbi.gov/foia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1686 1687 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 Next Page 1691 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
georger 197 #42272 August 16, 2013 I don't agree that the hijacker was from some place far from the Northwest. Doing this crime was dangerous enough, but to consider jumping at night over a state you've never or seldom visited doesn't make sense to me.Quote Who said he hadn't (seldom) visited? How in hell do you know? What brand and color of underwear did he wear? His favorite hooch? His dog's name? His State of birth? His girlfriend's name? Name of "that woman"? What time and day will the world end? What time and day did Creation begin? How many dogs did Thomas Jefferson own, and their names please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42273 August 16, 2013 Robert99The possibility of a Freedom of Information Act request in the Cooper case was recently raised on this thread. I am not familiar with that act and don't know how the legal aspects of it are handled. But the following is a discussion of the various channels of communication that were used during the hijacking. The NWA 305 Boeing 727 had a MINIMUM of two VHF radio transceivers for voice communications. It may have had more, but two were MANDATORY. The airliner could also receive voice communications, but not transmit, on other VHF frequencies such as the frequencies of the VOR stations used for navigation. In addition, it is very likely that the airliner could receive some voice communications through the ADF receiver (and probably receive the standard AM commercial broadcast stations as well). But there is no indication that anything mentioned in this paragraph was used for communicating with the airliner during the hijacking. During flight and ground operations, the airliner apparently used only its two VHF transceivers for communications. They would be used to communicate with the FAA Air Traffic Control system (airport towers, air traffic control centers/controllers, etc.), the ARINC (Aeronautical Radio Incorporated) system operated by the airline industry, and NWA company radio frequencies. On the last item, part of the ground communications by the airliner while on the ground in Seattle was done on the NWA company ground frequency. But the first two items are the most important. The FAA communications between the towers and air traffic control facilities were routinely tape recorded in the early 1970s. In addition to the voice communications over the radios, extensive coordination was done between controllers using a dedicated telephone system. These telephone communications were also routinely recorded. See the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center transcripts for examples of this. Following the hijacking, the Chiefs of the Seattle and Oakland ATC centers had transcripts made of their communications with the airliner and certified that those transcripts were true and complete. The Oakland Center's transcripts appear to be complete but the Seattle Center's transcript has obviously undergone a major redaction. In general, the location of the airliner can not be determined from the Seattle Center's transcripts. Communications between the airliner and the ARINC system were also done by voice radio. Generally, the messages were then transmitted by teletype from the ARINC facility to the appropriate airline facility. However, in special cases, the airliner's voice communication were patched through the commercial telephone system to the appropriate airline facility. Both of these means were used during the hijacking. Therefore, all of the communications between the airliner to the ARINC facility and from the ARINC facility, including the phone patches, to the airliner were probably tape recorded and, in some instances, a hard copy was made by the teletype. All of the above tapes would appear to be subject to a FOIA action. But the tapes, or transcripts, of the greatest importance are those of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC center that took place from the take-off in Seattle until the airliner passed the Eugene, OR VORTAC. That includes the phone communications between the controllers that passed the airliner from one sector controller to another. Since these communications involved a major crime, the tapes and transcripts were undoubtedly preserved. In my opinion, these tapes and transcripts should be the focus of any FOIA action. The ARINC tapes and transcripts would, in my opinion, be of secondary importance here. But they probably should be included in any FOIA action. Does anyone want to pursue a FOIA action? Robert99 all they have to do is black out the sections they don't want you to see if they ever released the actual transcripts. I don't think they would send anything other than what we have already seen. they will simply use this clause "sensitive security information" or the "open case" clause. you could try it though. people investigating UFO's run into this problem all the time. it's Ridiculous some of the things they send from the FOIA. (see document)"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42274 August 16, 2013 getting a Lawyer is not needed for a FOIA request. it's a waste of money IMO. What Information is Not Available under the FOIA? The FOIA provides exceptions for certain records. These include: Classified national defense and foreign relations information Internal agency rules and practices Information that is prohibited from disclosure by another law Trade secrets and other confidential business information Inter-agency or intra-agency communications that are protected by legal privileges Information involving matters of personal privacy Certain information compiled for law enforcement purposes Information relating to the supervision of financial institutions Geological information on wells What Information is Not Available under the Privacy Act? The Privacy Act also provides exceptions for certain records, including: Classified information on national security Records concerning criminal investigations Information that would identify a confidential source Do I Need a Lawyer Experienced with these Laws? A lawyer may be able to help you decide which agency would most likely have the record you are seeking to obtain. A lawyer can also help you decide under which law your request falls and may help guide you through the process of uncovering the information. I think wasting money on a Lawyer is not going to help you any further in getting information."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #42275 August 16, 2013 Quotegetting a Lawyer is not needed for a FOIA request. As far as DB Cooper I think we all know who has information...the FBI I never used a FOIA, but I have the seen results of a FOIA. Your right, be specific. (For ex.) If pages are missing from already released documents, ask for those page numbers. Don't give them a reason not to help. You can also visit the reading room at FBI headquarters in Washington DC. Below is a link to instructions on getting FBI records via FOIA. They have a phone number to call in order to find out the status of your FOIA. http://www.fbi.gov/foia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1686 1687 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 Next Page 1691 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47
mrshutter45 21 #42273 August 16, 2013 Robert99The possibility of a Freedom of Information Act request in the Cooper case was recently raised on this thread. I am not familiar with that act and don't know how the legal aspects of it are handled. But the following is a discussion of the various channels of communication that were used during the hijacking. The NWA 305 Boeing 727 had a MINIMUM of two VHF radio transceivers for voice communications. It may have had more, but two were MANDATORY. The airliner could also receive voice communications, but not transmit, on other VHF frequencies such as the frequencies of the VOR stations used for navigation. In addition, it is very likely that the airliner could receive some voice communications through the ADF receiver (and probably receive the standard AM commercial broadcast stations as well). But there is no indication that anything mentioned in this paragraph was used for communicating with the airliner during the hijacking. During flight and ground operations, the airliner apparently used only its two VHF transceivers for communications. They would be used to communicate with the FAA Air Traffic Control system (airport towers, air traffic control centers/controllers, etc.), the ARINC (Aeronautical Radio Incorporated) system operated by the airline industry, and NWA company radio frequencies. On the last item, part of the ground communications by the airliner while on the ground in Seattle was done on the NWA company ground frequency. But the first two items are the most important. The FAA communications between the towers and air traffic control facilities were routinely tape recorded in the early 1970s. In addition to the voice communications over the radios, extensive coordination was done between controllers using a dedicated telephone system. These telephone communications were also routinely recorded. See the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center transcripts for examples of this. Following the hijacking, the Chiefs of the Seattle and Oakland ATC centers had transcripts made of their communications with the airliner and certified that those transcripts were true and complete. The Oakland Center's transcripts appear to be complete but the Seattle Center's transcript has obviously undergone a major redaction. In general, the location of the airliner can not be determined from the Seattle Center's transcripts. Communications between the airliner and the ARINC system were also done by voice radio. Generally, the messages were then transmitted by teletype from the ARINC facility to the appropriate airline facility. However, in special cases, the airliner's voice communication were patched through the commercial telephone system to the appropriate airline facility. Both of these means were used during the hijacking. Therefore, all of the communications between the airliner to the ARINC facility and from the ARINC facility, including the phone patches, to the airliner were probably tape recorded and, in some instances, a hard copy was made by the teletype. All of the above tapes would appear to be subject to a FOIA action. But the tapes, or transcripts, of the greatest importance are those of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC center that took place from the take-off in Seattle until the airliner passed the Eugene, OR VORTAC. That includes the phone communications between the controllers that passed the airliner from one sector controller to another. Since these communications involved a major crime, the tapes and transcripts were undoubtedly preserved. In my opinion, these tapes and transcripts should be the focus of any FOIA action. The ARINC tapes and transcripts would, in my opinion, be of secondary importance here. But they probably should be included in any FOIA action. Does anyone want to pursue a FOIA action? Robert99 all they have to do is black out the sections they don't want you to see if they ever released the actual transcripts. I don't think they would send anything other than what we have already seen. they will simply use this clause "sensitive security information" or the "open case" clause. you could try it though. people investigating UFO's run into this problem all the time. it's Ridiculous some of the things they send from the FOIA. (see document)"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #42274 August 16, 2013 getting a Lawyer is not needed for a FOIA request. it's a waste of money IMO. What Information is Not Available under the FOIA? The FOIA provides exceptions for certain records. These include: Classified national defense and foreign relations information Internal agency rules and practices Information that is prohibited from disclosure by another law Trade secrets and other confidential business information Inter-agency or intra-agency communications that are protected by legal privileges Information involving matters of personal privacy Certain information compiled for law enforcement purposes Information relating to the supervision of financial institutions Geological information on wells What Information is Not Available under the Privacy Act? The Privacy Act also provides exceptions for certain records, including: Classified information on national security Records concerning criminal investigations Information that would identify a confidential source Do I Need a Lawyer Experienced with these Laws? A lawyer may be able to help you decide which agency would most likely have the record you are seeking to obtain. A lawyer can also help you decide under which law your request falls and may help guide you through the process of uncovering the information. I think wasting money on a Lawyer is not going to help you any further in getting information."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
testxyz 0 #42275 August 16, 2013 Quotegetting a Lawyer is not needed for a FOIA request. As far as DB Cooper I think we all know who has information...the FBI I never used a FOIA, but I have the seen results of a FOIA. Your right, be specific. (For ex.) If pages are missing from already released documents, ask for those page numbers. Don't give them a reason not to help. You can also visit the reading room at FBI headquarters in Washington DC. Below is a link to instructions on getting FBI records via FOIA. They have a phone number to call in order to find out the status of your FOIA. http://www.fbi.gov/foia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
