skyjack71 0 #42126 August 13, 2013 Belvins Stated: Quote"Actually, I shredded the Palmer Report after everyone here gave me a shit time about it, and I was busy dealing with Regina Winkles and Matt Mullenberg. Didn't figure that to be a big deal since I assumed the Cooper experts already had a copy stashed somewhere. You have everything else and the Palmer Report was high-profile and the university backing that effort well-known." Blevins - you never actually got a copy of the report. You perhaps got a summary letter Palmer did, BUT not the COMPLETE file he used to come to those decisions.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42127 August 13, 2013 RobertMBlevins Georger rambles in part: Quote 'Al Di. Code breaker. Playboy collector/reader. Knows the ads. Charmin and Cutty expert. Hide n Seek. Peek a Boo in a cheap room in Reno. Probably has the Maximum Epehmeris for Wage Earner Sheeple on loan from the library too! Undiscovered Playboy expert. He's the one who probably sent the Palmer report to Blevins! (Blevins cant find it to confirm so, send him another copy Al Di! Address it to Gayla under cover.) Hello Mudduh Hello Fadduh Here I am at ... Al Di Nada ... Send a lettuh ... To your mudduh ... And we'll send you a ten pound box of Macaroni.' Actually, I shredded the Palmer Report after everyone here gave me a shit time about it, and I was busy dealing with Regina Winkles and Matt Mullenberg. Didn't figure that to be a big deal since I assumed the Cooper experts already had a copy stashed somewhere. You have everything else and the Palmer Report was high-profile and the university backing that effort well-known. Are you saying you've never seen it, and that no one has a copy that's ever been scanned? LOL. Get off your lazy behind and go to the source. I made some inquiries long ago by email and by snail mail. No responses. Then this envelope shows up a long time later at AB. I took a quick look at it but it meant nothing to me. BORING. Do you know how much stuff people mail to us every day? Hint: A lot. If it WAS important, you should have SAID SOMETHING SERIOUS instead of drooling Alice in Wonderland stuff and making rather dumb jokes when I brought it up. If I had known it was really important, I probably would have kept it around, scanned it into my computer, and made it public. Now it's in the shitbox, the little grey shredder. No one expressed a serious interest. They were too busy thinking up cute jokes and barfing up filthy comments on Cooper articles. Maybe someone should have said: "No public copies have been made available..." If this is true, I had absolutely no idea this was the case. And if they did, I probably missed it wading through the crap comments. If it IS available and you HAVE seen it, or have a copy...then why are you whining about it now? If you don't have a copy and it's really that important to you, I suggest some polite inquiries about it as I did. The key word here is polite, Georger. You'd be surprised how well people respond to a well-constructed letter or email done in a civilized and polite fashion. Quote Post taylored to Lunatic Books of Seattle - and the Lunatics who dared to post. Hello Mudduh ... Hello Blevins ... Hows it going in Nome Alaska ...? Did you get my macaronni ...? Hows the diet of ice and blubbuh ...? Hello Mudduh Hello Fadduh Hows it going in Alaska? We had cutbacks here at Boeing So Im sending only one casket ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCharger 0 #42128 August 13, 2013 I have lurked this thread for months and even posted on it not long ago. As an outside observer, I am shocked by the amount of vitriol and personal attacks that occur here. All of the nasty comments and bickering really becomes an impediment to figuring this case out. There is really great info here, but it is hard to filter through the nasty posts. Also, so many of you have already made your minds up that any new ideas are disregarded or ignored. Is the point of this thread to forward an agenda or exchange ideas and information to solve the case? With that said, here is my two cents: Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42129 August 13, 2013 CChargerI have lurked this thread for months and even posted on it not long ago. As an outside observer, I am shocked by the amount of vitriol and personal attacks that occur here. All of the nasty comments and bickering really becomes an impediment to figuring this case out. There is really great info here, but it is hard to filter through the nasty posts. Also, so many of you have already made your minds up that any new ideas are disregarded or ignored. Is the point of this thread to forward an agenda or exchange ideas and information to solve the case? With that said, here is my two cents: Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this?Quote Has lycopodium (vs other formulations) been confirmed? Do you know? No pills or other artifacts were found in the lavatory - so far as I know. Did Cooper go to the lav simply to take pills - he spent considerable time there and communicated through the door. Kaye is not a chemist and I seriously doubt he has the mass-spec work to document particular forumulations - do you know? I think you have to be a little careful in this regard ... do you know? Thanks for sticking to the topic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42130 August 13, 2013 CCharger Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this? CCharger, welcome aboard. The use of latex gloves would presumably also include the medical field, such building trades as painting, law enforcement crime scene investigators, plus others. Do you have any suggestions for narrowing the possibilities down? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42131 August 13, 2013 georger***I have lurked this thread for months and even posted on it not long ago. As an outside observer, I am shocked by the amount of vitriol and personal attacks that occur here. All of the nasty comments and bickering really becomes an impediment to figuring this case out. There is really great info here, but it is hard to filter through the nasty posts. Also, so many of you have already made your minds up that any new ideas are disregarded or ignored. Is the point of this thread to forward an agenda or exchange ideas and information to solve the case? With that said, here is my two cents: Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this?Quote Has lycopodium (vs other formulations) been confirmed? Do you know? No pills or other artifacts were found in the lavatory - so far as I know. Did Cooper go to the lav simply to take pills - he spent considerable time there and communicated through the door. Kaye is not a chemist and I seriously doubt he has the mass-spec work to document particular forumulations - do you know? I think you have to be a little careful in this regard ... do you know? Thanks for sticking to the topic! I believe there is a remark somewhere in Tosaw's book of Cooper telling Tina that he had some pills to help keep the pilots awake if they needed them. So Cooper apparently had at least one type of pill on his person. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42132 August 13, 2013 Robert99******I have lurked this thread for months and even posted on it not long ago. As an outside observer, I am shocked by the amount of vitriol and personal attacks that occur here. All of the nasty comments and bickering really becomes an impediment to figuring this case out. There is really great info here, but it is hard to filter through the nasty posts. Also, so many of you have already made your minds up that any new ideas are disregarded or ignored. Is the point of this thread to forward an agenda or exchange ideas and information to solve the case? With that said, here is my two cents: Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this?Quote Has lycopodium (vs other formulations) been confirmed? Do you know? No pills or other artifacts were found in the lavatory - so far as I know. Did Cooper go to the lav simply to take pills - he spent considerable time there and communicated through the door. Kaye is not a chemist and I seriously doubt he has the mass-spec work to document particular forumulations - do you know? I think you have to be a little careful in this regard ... do you know? Thanks for sticking to the topic! I believe there is a remark somewhere in Tosaw's book of Cooper telling Tina that he had some pills to help keep the pilots awake if they needed them. So Cooper apparently had at least one type of pill on his person. Robert99Quote Thats right - had forgotten about that. If one finds the coating of a pill what about the medication itself? One should find it also - Im just very cautious about jumping to conclusions, pending something analytical like mass spec work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42133 August 13, 2013 That's interesting. The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. It was frequently given to military pilots in WW II up to and including Vietnam. It's street name was "bennies" and was used recreationally by beatniks and hippies in the 50s and 60s.it is prescribed for the relief of nasal and bronchial congestion...such as asthma or allergies. This begs the questions...was Coop an asthmatic? Was he a speed head? Was he a military pilot familiar with the stimulant from combat? Was the lycopodium powder present on his tie from his routine use of Benzedrine? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreyCopGC148 0 #42134 August 13, 2013 My reference to Frenchman's bar was regarding my encounter with Larry Carr, Brian Ingram, and the geologist. They were actually filming on Frenchman's bar BECAUSE it was easier access for the film crew. We all know the actual incident occurred at Tina's bar. I observed L. Carr, B. Ingram, and others (Authors, film crew etc) leave on a small boat from the Tina Bar boat ramp to go to the actual location. No one goes to this area to swim because of all the "Cattle" related runoff that enters the Columbia at the location. The gentleman who referenced Frenchman's bar is correct, there was a coin box on the green and white trimmed house, that was always so full, that the money was falling on the ground. The local hippies would break into it for beer money. I remember the grey and red tractor that the farmer used to pull people out when they got stuck in the sand (a common occurrence) Gone now, are the red barns (with the river murals painted on them) and the large silo that you drove by. I remember the good old days too DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreyCopGC148 0 #42135 August 13, 2013 smokin99 ***This is Paul Geivett, I am not a skydiver, or a pilot. I will always fall short on technical questions on these matters. I solved this case on the ground, not in the sky. No descriptions or vague memories, nor discrepancy of 1-2 inches, nor any description of color of clothing, nor the seat he sat in. This case has to be solved on forensics period. Handwriting, DNA on and under stamps or envelope flaps. There are handwriting experts by the thousands that would love to have their name on this case for the pages of history and hands of time. The tickets of all the passengers should be and should have been collected that night... the ticket agent did NOT write the Van 9 letter, nor fill out the envelope to the Oregonian/Playboy letter.... nor fill out a 1958 flight log that seems to have Kenny Christiansens name on it. Nor did he fill out everything Kenny Christiansen wrote since he was in Kindergarten. Have any of you looked at the ticket agents job application? and possibly the 200-500 tickets he wrote out that night? Or the stack of writing Kenneth sent home from the Military... or the fact he quit writing home after the Highjacking? Welcome aboard, btw. I don't know...I'm no handwriting expert, for sure, but, going with the premise that the hijacker filled out the ticket rather than the ticket agent, I briefly looked at DAN vs VAN without magnification and I'm just not seeing the likeness at first glance. Slants, size, rounding looks different to me. Hopefully you will go into more detail. You are not comparing Dan to Van on the envelope, remove the word Vancouver from the letter. Remove the V from Vancouver. Remove the U and the V. Using the d from the end of the word enjoyed and the op from the word cop. Slide the er back on. Now you have a mirror image of Dan Cooper as seen on TICKET DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42136 August 13, 2013 CChargerThat's interesting. The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. It was frequently given to military pilots in WW II up to and including Vietnam. It's street name was "bennies" and was used recreationally by beatniks and hippies in the 50s and 60s.it is prescribed for the relief of nasal and bronchial congestion...such as asthma or allergies. This begs the questions...was Coop an asthmatic? Was he a speed head? Was he a military pilot familiar with the stimulant from combat? Was the lycopodium powder present on his tie from his routine use of Benzedrine? It is unlikely that Cooper was a military pilot, although he may well have been a flight crew member on military transport/cargo type aircraft. Cooper had knowledge of the 727 and knew that the rear stairs could be lowered in flight and that people and cargo could parachute from those stairs. The NWA flight crew did not know that. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42137 August 13, 2013 CChargerI have lurked this thread for months and even posted on it not long ago. As an outside observer, I am shocked by the amount of vitriol and personal attacks that occur here. All of the nasty comments and bickering really becomes an impediment to figuring this case out. There is really great info here, but it is hard to filter through the nasty posts. Also, so many of you have already made your minds up that any new ideas are disregarded or ignored. Is the point of this thread to forward an agenda or exchange ideas and information to solve the case? With that said, here is my two cents: Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this? Uncertain where you got the information, but I think it falls along the lines of medication. Before I mentioned a dentist and dental work that may have been in progress with the skyjacker and that he might have worked briefly in the laboratory in exchange for services. Cleaning the lab and simple jobs maintaining the equipment. On another NOTE - remember that rubber gloves where OFTEN use by cleaning personnel in public establishment - this includes airports and planes. May have just been co-incidental. Just too common if it was that chemical.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42138 August 13, 2013 Quote I believe there is a remark somewhere in Tosaw's book of Cooper telling Tina that he had some pills to help keep the pilots awake if they needed them. So Cooper apparently had at least one type of pill on his person. Robert99 I skimmed thru it the other day as a refresher and I have not put it away yet. If not in that book in multiple other places!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42139 August 13, 2013 Robert99 stated: The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. Jo Replies: I do NOT remember getting a prescription for it in the 70's and it may NOT have been Benzedrine - it could simply have been caffeine tablets. Since Weber had been diagnosed with Polycysitic Kidney he probably was on medication, but I have NO idea what he was taking in the early 70's. I am sure what put him in the hospital was hypertension and that is when they found or confirmed his kidney disease but he would NOT need further assistance until 1987.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42140 August 13, 2013 QuoteYou are not comparing Dan to Van on the envelope, remove the word Vancouver from the letter. Remove the V from Vancouver. Remove the U and the V. Using the d from the end of the word enjoyed and the op from the word cop. Slide the er back on. Now you have a mirror image of Dan Cooper as seen on TICKET WELL, have you ever studied the Reno papers. The coded message which told them to decipfer the message and they could find him. It was a combination of Weber's army and navy number. The fbi denied he was in the army until a journalist and myself produce the ARMY records and then the FBI conceded. Had it not have been for old family records and a sharp journalist the Army record would have stayed buried just like the Jefferson composite was buried.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42141 August 14, 2013 GreyCopGC148 ******This is Paul Geivett, I am not a skydiver, or a pilot. I will always fall short on technical questions on these matters. I solved this case on the ground, not in the sky. No descriptions or vague memories, nor discrepancy of 1-2 inches, nor any description of color of clothing, nor the seat he sat in. This case has to be solved on forensics period. Handwriting, DNA on and under stamps or envelope flaps. There are handwriting experts by the thousands that would love to have their name on this case for the pages of history and hands of time. The tickets of all the passengers should be and should have been collected that night... the ticket agent did NOT write the Van 9 letter, nor fill out the envelope to the Oregonian/Playboy letter.... nor fill out a 1958 flight log that seems to have Kenny Christiansens name on it. Nor did he fill out everything Kenny Christiansen wrote since he was in Kindergarten. Have any of you looked at the ticket agents job application? and possibly the 200-500 tickets he wrote out that night? Or the stack of writing Kenneth sent home from the Military... or the fact he quit writing home after the Highjacking? Welcome aboard, btw. I don't know...I'm no handwriting expert, for sure, but, going with the premise that the hijacker filled out the ticket rather than the ticket agent, I briefly looked at DAN vs VAN without magnification and I'm just not seeing the likeness at first glance. Slants, size, rounding looks different to me. Hopefully you will go into more detail. You are not comparing Dan to Van on the envelope, remove the word Vancouver from the letter. Remove the V from Vancouver. Remove the U and the V. Using the d from the end of the word enjoyed and the op from the word cop. Slide the er back on. Now you have a mirror image of Dan Cooper as seen on TICKET Here's what I see - with the caveat that I have a horrible copy of the letter. I really need a magnifier. I'll give you that one D, but not necessarily the others. All of the C's look more angular than the rounded C of the ticket. Almost all of the R's on the letter have a closed loop, as opposed to the ticket. I still say the A's on the letter slant more towards the left. The N's look pretty close. The O's - its hard to say because of the quality but it looks like they start in different places (heavy vs light stroke). Finally the actual word Cooper doesn't match, to me. If there's no way he will be caught, as he alleges in one of the letters, and he feels frisky enough to take the risk to write a letter, why would he disguise the word Cooper? Seems like overkill to me. Not saying your wrong - just that I'm not seeing a mirror image. And again, I'm no handwriting expert. Still wondering about the ticket agent's handwriting samples - have you compared the ticket to other tickets he wrote? And have the envelopes/letters been tested for DNA that you know of? Any results?but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42142 August 14, 2013 skyjack71 Robert99 stated: The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. Jo Replies: I do NOT remember getting a prescription for it in the 70's and it may NOT have been Benzedrine - it could simply have been caffeine tablets. Since Weber had been diagnosed with Polycysitic Kidney he probably was on medication, but I have NO idea what he was taking in the early 70's. I am sure what put him in the hospital was hypertension and that is when they found or confirmed his kidney disease but he would NOT need further assistance until 1987. lol...there's a lot of stuff that requires prescriptions that you can get without a prescription. I remember black beauties back in the day. Diet pills we called em. Take one and clean the entire house in about an hour, talk a mile a minute, scratch the scalp cause it made it tingle, smoke about a million cigarettes, and wear size 2 jeans. I doubt very seriously that any doctor put Duane on benzedrine with hypertension and kidney disease.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42143 August 14, 2013 mrshutter45 I also spent some time on the letters. here's a question. how well did the public know of Dan Cooper vs DB Cooper from November 24, 1971 to lets say January 31,1972. I noticed all the letters are marked DB Cooper vs Dan Cooper, which one would think the actual Cooper would leave his mark by using his real "fake" name that was on the ticket? here is a couple of the tickets Answering my own question, I believe that the ticket agent is deceased. I realize that daily routines can vary, but it should be a relatively simple matter to find out what the common practice was in the 70s -as a general rule, did the ticket agent fill out the tickets or did the passenger? maybe someone in the NW historical society would know. I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42144 August 14, 2013 smokin99*** I also spent some time on the letters. here's a question. how well did the public know of Dan Cooper vs DB Cooper from November 24, 1971 to lets say January 31,1972. I noticed all the letters are marked DB Cooper vs Dan Cooper, which one would think the actual Cooper would leave his mark by using his real "fake" name that was on the ticket? here is a couple of the tickets Answering my own question, I believe that the ticket agent is deceased. I realize that daily routines can vary, but it should be a relatively simple matter to find out what the common practice was in the 70s -as a general rule, did the ticket agent fill out the tickets or did the passenger? maybe someone in the NW historical society would know. I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information. I did quite a bit of airline flying in the same time frame as the hijacking and I never wrote a single thing on an airline ticket or saw any other passenger do so. The airline people did it all. In fact, if you worked for a large organization that had its own airline ticket office, your ticket would probably be delivered to you and completed in all details without any particular input from you personally. Your first personal contact with the airline people would be when you handed the ticket to the agent at check-in or at the boarding gate. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42145 August 14, 2013 Quote I doubt very seriously that any doctor put Duane on benzedrine with hypertension and kidney disease. That is what I was saying and there were things out there one could obtain to keep you awake without a script in 1970. It is a given No Dr. would have prescribes something like that for anyone with hypertension and kidneys that were not functioning at full capacity.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42146 August 14, 2013 Quote I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information. The few times I have flown in my life I never filled anything out. Before the computers the clerks did all the writing and now it is computerized. I do NOT know where this guy is coming from with some of his 'stuff', but so far it is a NO regardless of my stand on Weber. He makes it easy for me to be very objective about his suspect. I think he is a TEST to see just HOW GULLIBLE Cooper seekers are and how easy it is to lead us around on a leash. I want to take this chance to remind you guys about the Jack Anderson files and to ask a question. Did the FBI or CIA successful obtain the records from his wife Olivia. I know they tricked her and the voucher was for ALL his file not just the one pertaining to specific 1970's files. I think they took all 200 boxes and I wondered if she EVER GOT them back. Anderson was the journalist 2 individuals from the Lousiana area went to see and to give depositions regarding Kennedy. One was already using an alias. Seems like this just WENT AWAY! NO one very knew what REALLY HAPPENED!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42147 August 14, 2013 CCharger That's interesting. The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. It was frequently given to military pilots in WW II up to and including Vietnam. It's street name was "bennies" and was used recreationally by beatniks and hippies in the 50s and 60s.it is prescribed for the relief of nasal and bronchial congestion...such as asthma or allergies. This begs the questions...was Coop an asthmatic? Was he a speed head? Was he a military pilot familiar with the stimulant from combat? Was the lycopodium powder present on his tie from his routine use of Benzedrine? Quote lycopodium, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycopodium_powder There are different formulations for different uses - medicines vs industrial. The stuff is a very fine dust and as the above states was used to 'dust for prints' at one time. I would look at the prints the FBi collected to test for the same spores. The obvious thing to look for also is C9 H13(N.1-phenylpropan -2-amine) associated with lycopodium spores, I would think. It is also worth noting the FBI uses latex gloves to handle their evidence. Im not sure what the powder on those gloves is but you might want cross check the gloves for spores. There are photos of SA Carr holding the tie with 'latex gloves' on. Numerous people have handled and examined the tie all wearing protective gloves, dusted with something - But again I would look for these spores and Amp in other evidence like prints, especially any prints taken from the Lav. Evidence of spores is one thing - evidence of Amp and a specific forumulation might lead somewhere. You saw the problem Tom had just tracing-identifying what started as pollen then turned to spores, as I understand the history. ?\ The leap from Amp to pilots might also include truck drivers, and food service workers? (I always include food service workers in deference to H ---) Thats a good question - keep em coming... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42148 August 14, 2013 Here is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42149 August 14, 2013 CChargerHere is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s.Quote I know. I pointed the same thing out years ago however there were exceptions. Lots of exceptions. There wre guys who saw action in WWII, Korea, and Nam who definmately were in their late 40s or early to mid 50s by Nam. I could name a bunch of them ... I want his dna whoever he was. Who knows! Maybe he ran a surplus store somewhere... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42150 August 14, 2013 CChargerHere is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s. I think, and I could be wrong, that a lot of the military or covert ops type people that have been cited as possible contenders, (folks such as Peterson, Burnworth, Braden) were more your professional military / maybe even soldier of fortune types that were older (on the average) then your Vietnam era paratrooper. But I would have to do some re-digging to verify that statement.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1681 1682 1683 1684 1685 1686 1687 1688 1689 1690 1691 Next Page 1686 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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Robert99 37 #42130 August 13, 2013 CCharger Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this? CCharger, welcome aboard. The use of latex gloves would presumably also include the medical field, such building trades as painting, law enforcement crime scene investigators, plus others. Do you have any suggestions for narrowing the possibilities down? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42131 August 13, 2013 georger***I have lurked this thread for months and even posted on it not long ago. As an outside observer, I am shocked by the amount of vitriol and personal attacks that occur here. All of the nasty comments and bickering really becomes an impediment to figuring this case out. There is really great info here, but it is hard to filter through the nasty posts. Also, so many of you have already made your minds up that any new ideas are disregarded or ignored. Is the point of this thread to forward an agenda or exchange ideas and information to solve the case? With that said, here is my two cents: Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this?Quote Has lycopodium (vs other formulations) been confirmed? Do you know? No pills or other artifacts were found in the lavatory - so far as I know. Did Cooper go to the lav simply to take pills - he spent considerable time there and communicated through the door. Kaye is not a chemist and I seriously doubt he has the mass-spec work to document particular forumulations - do you know? I think you have to be a little careful in this regard ... do you know? Thanks for sticking to the topic! I believe there is a remark somewhere in Tosaw's book of Cooper telling Tina that he had some pills to help keep the pilots awake if they needed them. So Cooper apparently had at least one type of pill on his person. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42132 August 13, 2013 Robert99******I have lurked this thread for months and even posted on it not long ago. As an outside observer, I am shocked by the amount of vitriol and personal attacks that occur here. All of the nasty comments and bickering really becomes an impediment to figuring this case out. There is really great info here, but it is hard to filter through the nasty posts. Also, so many of you have already made your minds up that any new ideas are disregarded or ignored. Is the point of this thread to forward an agenda or exchange ideas and information to solve the case? With that said, here is my two cents: Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this?Quote Has lycopodium (vs other formulations) been confirmed? Do you know? No pills or other artifacts were found in the lavatory - so far as I know. Did Cooper go to the lav simply to take pills - he spent considerable time there and communicated through the door. Kaye is not a chemist and I seriously doubt he has the mass-spec work to document particular forumulations - do you know? I think you have to be a little careful in this regard ... do you know? Thanks for sticking to the topic! I believe there is a remark somewhere in Tosaw's book of Cooper telling Tina that he had some pills to help keep the pilots awake if they needed them. So Cooper apparently had at least one type of pill on his person. Robert99Quote Thats right - had forgotten about that. If one finds the coating of a pill what about the medication itself? One should find it also - Im just very cautious about jumping to conclusions, pending something analytical like mass spec work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42133 August 13, 2013 That's interesting. The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. It was frequently given to military pilots in WW II up to and including Vietnam. It's street name was "bennies" and was used recreationally by beatniks and hippies in the 50s and 60s.it is prescribed for the relief of nasal and bronchial congestion...such as asthma or allergies. This begs the questions...was Coop an asthmatic? Was he a speed head? Was he a military pilot familiar with the stimulant from combat? Was the lycopodium powder present on his tie from his routine use of Benzedrine? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreyCopGC148 0 #42134 August 13, 2013 My reference to Frenchman's bar was regarding my encounter with Larry Carr, Brian Ingram, and the geologist. They were actually filming on Frenchman's bar BECAUSE it was easier access for the film crew. We all know the actual incident occurred at Tina's bar. I observed L. Carr, B. Ingram, and others (Authors, film crew etc) leave on a small boat from the Tina Bar boat ramp to go to the actual location. No one goes to this area to swim because of all the "Cattle" related runoff that enters the Columbia at the location. The gentleman who referenced Frenchman's bar is correct, there was a coin box on the green and white trimmed house, that was always so full, that the money was falling on the ground. The local hippies would break into it for beer money. I remember the grey and red tractor that the farmer used to pull people out when they got stuck in the sand (a common occurrence) Gone now, are the red barns (with the river murals painted on them) and the large silo that you drove by. I remember the good old days too DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreyCopGC148 0 #42135 August 13, 2013 smokin99 ***This is Paul Geivett, I am not a skydiver, or a pilot. I will always fall short on technical questions on these matters. I solved this case on the ground, not in the sky. No descriptions or vague memories, nor discrepancy of 1-2 inches, nor any description of color of clothing, nor the seat he sat in. This case has to be solved on forensics period. Handwriting, DNA on and under stamps or envelope flaps. There are handwriting experts by the thousands that would love to have their name on this case for the pages of history and hands of time. The tickets of all the passengers should be and should have been collected that night... the ticket agent did NOT write the Van 9 letter, nor fill out the envelope to the Oregonian/Playboy letter.... nor fill out a 1958 flight log that seems to have Kenny Christiansens name on it. Nor did he fill out everything Kenny Christiansen wrote since he was in Kindergarten. Have any of you looked at the ticket agents job application? and possibly the 200-500 tickets he wrote out that night? Or the stack of writing Kenneth sent home from the Military... or the fact he quit writing home after the Highjacking? Welcome aboard, btw. I don't know...I'm no handwriting expert, for sure, but, going with the premise that the hijacker filled out the ticket rather than the ticket agent, I briefly looked at DAN vs VAN without magnification and I'm just not seeing the likeness at first glance. Slants, size, rounding looks different to me. Hopefully you will go into more detail. You are not comparing Dan to Van on the envelope, remove the word Vancouver from the letter. Remove the V from Vancouver. Remove the U and the V. Using the d from the end of the word enjoyed and the op from the word cop. Slide the er back on. Now you have a mirror image of Dan Cooper as seen on TICKET DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42136 August 13, 2013 CChargerThat's interesting. The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. It was frequently given to military pilots in WW II up to and including Vietnam. It's street name was "bennies" and was used recreationally by beatniks and hippies in the 50s and 60s.it is prescribed for the relief of nasal and bronchial congestion...such as asthma or allergies. This begs the questions...was Coop an asthmatic? Was he a speed head? Was he a military pilot familiar with the stimulant from combat? Was the lycopodium powder present on his tie from his routine use of Benzedrine? It is unlikely that Cooper was a military pilot, although he may well have been a flight crew member on military transport/cargo type aircraft. Cooper had knowledge of the 727 and knew that the rear stairs could be lowered in flight and that people and cargo could parachute from those stairs. The NWA flight crew did not know that. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42137 August 13, 2013 CChargerI have lurked this thread for months and even posted on it not long ago. As an outside observer, I am shocked by the amount of vitriol and personal attacks that occur here. All of the nasty comments and bickering really becomes an impediment to figuring this case out. There is really great info here, but it is hard to filter through the nasty posts. Also, so many of you have already made your minds up that any new ideas are disregarded or ignored. Is the point of this thread to forward an agenda or exchange ideas and information to solve the case? With that said, here is my two cents: Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this? Uncertain where you got the information, but I think it falls along the lines of medication. Before I mentioned a dentist and dental work that may have been in progress with the skyjacker and that he might have worked briefly in the laboratory in exchange for services. Cleaning the lab and simple jobs maintaining the equipment. On another NOTE - remember that rubber gloves where OFTEN use by cleaning personnel in public establishment - this includes airports and planes. May have just been co-incidental. Just too common if it was that chemical.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42138 August 13, 2013 Quote I believe there is a remark somewhere in Tosaw's book of Cooper telling Tina that he had some pills to help keep the pilots awake if they needed them. So Cooper apparently had at least one type of pill on his person. Robert99 I skimmed thru it the other day as a refresher and I have not put it away yet. If not in that book in multiple other places!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42139 August 13, 2013 Robert99 stated: The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. Jo Replies: I do NOT remember getting a prescription for it in the 70's and it may NOT have been Benzedrine - it could simply have been caffeine tablets. Since Weber had been diagnosed with Polycysitic Kidney he probably was on medication, but I have NO idea what he was taking in the early 70's. I am sure what put him in the hospital was hypertension and that is when they found or confirmed his kidney disease but he would NOT need further assistance until 1987.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42140 August 13, 2013 QuoteYou are not comparing Dan to Van on the envelope, remove the word Vancouver from the letter. Remove the V from Vancouver. Remove the U and the V. Using the d from the end of the word enjoyed and the op from the word cop. Slide the er back on. Now you have a mirror image of Dan Cooper as seen on TICKET WELL, have you ever studied the Reno papers. The coded message which told them to decipfer the message and they could find him. It was a combination of Weber's army and navy number. The fbi denied he was in the army until a journalist and myself produce the ARMY records and then the FBI conceded. Had it not have been for old family records and a sharp journalist the Army record would have stayed buried just like the Jefferson composite was buried.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42141 August 14, 2013 GreyCopGC148 ******This is Paul Geivett, I am not a skydiver, or a pilot. I will always fall short on technical questions on these matters. I solved this case on the ground, not in the sky. No descriptions or vague memories, nor discrepancy of 1-2 inches, nor any description of color of clothing, nor the seat he sat in. This case has to be solved on forensics period. Handwriting, DNA on and under stamps or envelope flaps. There are handwriting experts by the thousands that would love to have their name on this case for the pages of history and hands of time. The tickets of all the passengers should be and should have been collected that night... the ticket agent did NOT write the Van 9 letter, nor fill out the envelope to the Oregonian/Playboy letter.... nor fill out a 1958 flight log that seems to have Kenny Christiansens name on it. Nor did he fill out everything Kenny Christiansen wrote since he was in Kindergarten. Have any of you looked at the ticket agents job application? and possibly the 200-500 tickets he wrote out that night? Or the stack of writing Kenneth sent home from the Military... or the fact he quit writing home after the Highjacking? Welcome aboard, btw. I don't know...I'm no handwriting expert, for sure, but, going with the premise that the hijacker filled out the ticket rather than the ticket agent, I briefly looked at DAN vs VAN without magnification and I'm just not seeing the likeness at first glance. Slants, size, rounding looks different to me. Hopefully you will go into more detail. You are not comparing Dan to Van on the envelope, remove the word Vancouver from the letter. Remove the V from Vancouver. Remove the U and the V. Using the d from the end of the word enjoyed and the op from the word cop. Slide the er back on. Now you have a mirror image of Dan Cooper as seen on TICKET Here's what I see - with the caveat that I have a horrible copy of the letter. I really need a magnifier. I'll give you that one D, but not necessarily the others. All of the C's look more angular than the rounded C of the ticket. Almost all of the R's on the letter have a closed loop, as opposed to the ticket. I still say the A's on the letter slant more towards the left. The N's look pretty close. The O's - its hard to say because of the quality but it looks like they start in different places (heavy vs light stroke). Finally the actual word Cooper doesn't match, to me. If there's no way he will be caught, as he alleges in one of the letters, and he feels frisky enough to take the risk to write a letter, why would he disguise the word Cooper? Seems like overkill to me. Not saying your wrong - just that I'm not seeing a mirror image. And again, I'm no handwriting expert. Still wondering about the ticket agent's handwriting samples - have you compared the ticket to other tickets he wrote? And have the envelopes/letters been tested for DNA that you know of? Any results?but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42142 August 14, 2013 skyjack71 Robert99 stated: The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. Jo Replies: I do NOT remember getting a prescription for it in the 70's and it may NOT have been Benzedrine - it could simply have been caffeine tablets. Since Weber had been diagnosed with Polycysitic Kidney he probably was on medication, but I have NO idea what he was taking in the early 70's. I am sure what put him in the hospital was hypertension and that is when they found or confirmed his kidney disease but he would NOT need further assistance until 1987. lol...there's a lot of stuff that requires prescriptions that you can get without a prescription. I remember black beauties back in the day. Diet pills we called em. Take one and clean the entire house in about an hour, talk a mile a minute, scratch the scalp cause it made it tingle, smoke about a million cigarettes, and wear size 2 jeans. I doubt very seriously that any doctor put Duane on benzedrine with hypertension and kidney disease.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42143 August 14, 2013 mrshutter45 I also spent some time on the letters. here's a question. how well did the public know of Dan Cooper vs DB Cooper from November 24, 1971 to lets say January 31,1972. I noticed all the letters are marked DB Cooper vs Dan Cooper, which one would think the actual Cooper would leave his mark by using his real "fake" name that was on the ticket? here is a couple of the tickets Answering my own question, I believe that the ticket agent is deceased. I realize that daily routines can vary, but it should be a relatively simple matter to find out what the common practice was in the 70s -as a general rule, did the ticket agent fill out the tickets or did the passenger? maybe someone in the NW historical society would know. I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42144 August 14, 2013 smokin99*** I also spent some time on the letters. here's a question. how well did the public know of Dan Cooper vs DB Cooper from November 24, 1971 to lets say January 31,1972. I noticed all the letters are marked DB Cooper vs Dan Cooper, which one would think the actual Cooper would leave his mark by using his real "fake" name that was on the ticket? here is a couple of the tickets Answering my own question, I believe that the ticket agent is deceased. I realize that daily routines can vary, but it should be a relatively simple matter to find out what the common practice was in the 70s -as a general rule, did the ticket agent fill out the tickets or did the passenger? maybe someone in the NW historical society would know. I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information. I did quite a bit of airline flying in the same time frame as the hijacking and I never wrote a single thing on an airline ticket or saw any other passenger do so. The airline people did it all. In fact, if you worked for a large organization that had its own airline ticket office, your ticket would probably be delivered to you and completed in all details without any particular input from you personally. Your first personal contact with the airline people would be when you handed the ticket to the agent at check-in or at the boarding gate. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42145 August 14, 2013 Quote I doubt very seriously that any doctor put Duane on benzedrine with hypertension and kidney disease. That is what I was saying and there were things out there one could obtain to keep you awake without a script in 1970. It is a given No Dr. would have prescribes something like that for anyone with hypertension and kidneys that were not functioning at full capacity.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42146 August 14, 2013 Quote I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information. The few times I have flown in my life I never filled anything out. Before the computers the clerks did all the writing and now it is computerized. I do NOT know where this guy is coming from with some of his 'stuff', but so far it is a NO regardless of my stand on Weber. He makes it easy for me to be very objective about his suspect. I think he is a TEST to see just HOW GULLIBLE Cooper seekers are and how easy it is to lead us around on a leash. I want to take this chance to remind you guys about the Jack Anderson files and to ask a question. Did the FBI or CIA successful obtain the records from his wife Olivia. I know they tricked her and the voucher was for ALL his file not just the one pertaining to specific 1970's files. I think they took all 200 boxes and I wondered if she EVER GOT them back. Anderson was the journalist 2 individuals from the Lousiana area went to see and to give depositions regarding Kennedy. One was already using an alias. Seems like this just WENT AWAY! NO one very knew what REALLY HAPPENED!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42147 August 14, 2013 CCharger That's interesting. The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. It was frequently given to military pilots in WW II up to and including Vietnam. It's street name was "bennies" and was used recreationally by beatniks and hippies in the 50s and 60s.it is prescribed for the relief of nasal and bronchial congestion...such as asthma or allergies. This begs the questions...was Coop an asthmatic? Was he a speed head? Was he a military pilot familiar with the stimulant from combat? Was the lycopodium powder present on his tie from his routine use of Benzedrine? Quote lycopodium, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycopodium_powder There are different formulations for different uses - medicines vs industrial. The stuff is a very fine dust and as the above states was used to 'dust for prints' at one time. I would look at the prints the FBi collected to test for the same spores. The obvious thing to look for also is C9 H13(N.1-phenylpropan -2-amine) associated with lycopodium spores, I would think. It is also worth noting the FBI uses latex gloves to handle their evidence. Im not sure what the powder on those gloves is but you might want cross check the gloves for spores. There are photos of SA Carr holding the tie with 'latex gloves' on. Numerous people have handled and examined the tie all wearing protective gloves, dusted with something - But again I would look for these spores and Amp in other evidence like prints, especially any prints taken from the Lav. Evidence of spores is one thing - evidence of Amp and a specific forumulation might lead somewhere. You saw the problem Tom had just tracing-identifying what started as pollen then turned to spores, as I understand the history. ?\ The leap from Amp to pilots might also include truck drivers, and food service workers? (I always include food service workers in deference to H ---) Thats a good question - keep em coming... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42148 August 14, 2013 Here is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42149 August 14, 2013 CChargerHere is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s.Quote I know. I pointed the same thing out years ago however there were exceptions. Lots of exceptions. There wre guys who saw action in WWII, Korea, and Nam who definmately were in their late 40s or early to mid 50s by Nam. I could name a bunch of them ... I want his dna whoever he was. Who knows! Maybe he ran a surplus store somewhere... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42150 August 14, 2013 CChargerHere is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s. I think, and I could be wrong, that a lot of the military or covert ops type people that have been cited as possible contenders, (folks such as Peterson, Burnworth, Braden) were more your professional military / maybe even soldier of fortune types that were older (on the average) then your Vietnam era paratrooper. But I would have to do some re-digging to verify that statement.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1681 1682 1683 1684 1685 1686 1687 1688 1689 1690 1691 Next Page 1686 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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georger 197 #42132 August 13, 2013 Robert99******I have lurked this thread for months and even posted on it not long ago. As an outside observer, I am shocked by the amount of vitriol and personal attacks that occur here. All of the nasty comments and bickering really becomes an impediment to figuring this case out. There is really great info here, but it is hard to filter through the nasty posts. Also, so many of you have already made your minds up that any new ideas are disregarded or ignored. Is the point of this thread to forward an agenda or exchange ideas and information to solve the case? With that said, here is my two cents: Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this?Quote Has lycopodium (vs other formulations) been confirmed? Do you know? No pills or other artifacts were found in the lavatory - so far as I know. Did Cooper go to the lav simply to take pills - he spent considerable time there and communicated through the door. Kaye is not a chemist and I seriously doubt he has the mass-spec work to document particular forumulations - do you know? I think you have to be a little careful in this regard ... do you know? Thanks for sticking to the topic! I believe there is a remark somewhere in Tosaw's book of Cooper telling Tina that he had some pills to help keep the pilots awake if they needed them. So Cooper apparently had at least one type of pill on his person. Robert99Quote Thats right - had forgotten about that. If one finds the coating of a pill what about the medication itself? One should find it also - Im just very cautious about jumping to conclusions, pending something analytical like mass spec work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42133 August 13, 2013 That's interesting. The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. It was frequently given to military pilots in WW II up to and including Vietnam. It's street name was "bennies" and was used recreationally by beatniks and hippies in the 50s and 60s.it is prescribed for the relief of nasal and bronchial congestion...such as asthma or allergies. This begs the questions...was Coop an asthmatic? Was he a speed head? Was he a military pilot familiar with the stimulant from combat? Was the lycopodium powder present on his tie from his routine use of Benzedrine? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreyCopGC148 0 #42134 August 13, 2013 My reference to Frenchman's bar was regarding my encounter with Larry Carr, Brian Ingram, and the geologist. They were actually filming on Frenchman's bar BECAUSE it was easier access for the film crew. We all know the actual incident occurred at Tina's bar. I observed L. Carr, B. Ingram, and others (Authors, film crew etc) leave on a small boat from the Tina Bar boat ramp to go to the actual location. No one goes to this area to swim because of all the "Cattle" related runoff that enters the Columbia at the location. The gentleman who referenced Frenchman's bar is correct, there was a coin box on the green and white trimmed house, that was always so full, that the money was falling on the ground. The local hippies would break into it for beer money. I remember the grey and red tractor that the farmer used to pull people out when they got stuck in the sand (a common occurrence) Gone now, are the red barns (with the river murals painted on them) and the large silo that you drove by. I remember the good old days too DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreyCopGC148 0 #42135 August 13, 2013 smokin99 ***This is Paul Geivett, I am not a skydiver, or a pilot. I will always fall short on technical questions on these matters. I solved this case on the ground, not in the sky. No descriptions or vague memories, nor discrepancy of 1-2 inches, nor any description of color of clothing, nor the seat he sat in. This case has to be solved on forensics period. Handwriting, DNA on and under stamps or envelope flaps. There are handwriting experts by the thousands that would love to have their name on this case for the pages of history and hands of time. The tickets of all the passengers should be and should have been collected that night... the ticket agent did NOT write the Van 9 letter, nor fill out the envelope to the Oregonian/Playboy letter.... nor fill out a 1958 flight log that seems to have Kenny Christiansens name on it. Nor did he fill out everything Kenny Christiansen wrote since he was in Kindergarten. Have any of you looked at the ticket agents job application? and possibly the 200-500 tickets he wrote out that night? Or the stack of writing Kenneth sent home from the Military... or the fact he quit writing home after the Highjacking? Welcome aboard, btw. I don't know...I'm no handwriting expert, for sure, but, going with the premise that the hijacker filled out the ticket rather than the ticket agent, I briefly looked at DAN vs VAN without magnification and I'm just not seeing the likeness at first glance. Slants, size, rounding looks different to me. Hopefully you will go into more detail. You are not comparing Dan to Van on the envelope, remove the word Vancouver from the letter. Remove the V from Vancouver. Remove the U and the V. Using the d from the end of the word enjoyed and the op from the word cop. Slide the er back on. Now you have a mirror image of Dan Cooper as seen on TICKET DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42136 August 13, 2013 CChargerThat's interesting. The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. It was frequently given to military pilots in WW II up to and including Vietnam. It's street name was "bennies" and was used recreationally by beatniks and hippies in the 50s and 60s.it is prescribed for the relief of nasal and bronchial congestion...such as asthma or allergies. This begs the questions...was Coop an asthmatic? Was he a speed head? Was he a military pilot familiar with the stimulant from combat? Was the lycopodium powder present on his tie from his routine use of Benzedrine? It is unlikely that Cooper was a military pilot, although he may well have been a flight crew member on military transport/cargo type aircraft. Cooper had knowledge of the 727 and knew that the rear stairs could be lowered in flight and that people and cargo could parachute from those stairs. The NWA flight crew did not know that. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42137 August 13, 2013 CChargerI have lurked this thread for months and even posted on it not long ago. As an outside observer, I am shocked by the amount of vitriol and personal attacks that occur here. All of the nasty comments and bickering really becomes an impediment to figuring this case out. There is really great info here, but it is hard to filter through the nasty posts. Also, so many of you have already made your minds up that any new ideas are disregarded or ignored. Is the point of this thread to forward an agenda or exchange ideas and information to solve the case? With that said, here is my two cents: Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this? Uncertain where you got the information, but I think it falls along the lines of medication. Before I mentioned a dentist and dental work that may have been in progress with the skyjacker and that he might have worked briefly in the laboratory in exchange for services. Cleaning the lab and simple jobs maintaining the equipment. On another NOTE - remember that rubber gloves where OFTEN use by cleaning personnel in public establishment - this includes airports and planes. May have just been co-incidental. Just too common if it was that chemical.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42138 August 13, 2013 Quote I believe there is a remark somewhere in Tosaw's book of Cooper telling Tina that he had some pills to help keep the pilots awake if they needed them. So Cooper apparently had at least one type of pill on his person. Robert99 I skimmed thru it the other day as a refresher and I have not put it away yet. If not in that book in multiple other places!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42139 August 13, 2013 Robert99 stated: The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. Jo Replies: I do NOT remember getting a prescription for it in the 70's and it may NOT have been Benzedrine - it could simply have been caffeine tablets. Since Weber had been diagnosed with Polycysitic Kidney he probably was on medication, but I have NO idea what he was taking in the early 70's. I am sure what put him in the hospital was hypertension and that is when they found or confirmed his kidney disease but he would NOT need further assistance until 1987.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42140 August 13, 2013 QuoteYou are not comparing Dan to Van on the envelope, remove the word Vancouver from the letter. Remove the V from Vancouver. Remove the U and the V. Using the d from the end of the word enjoyed and the op from the word cop. Slide the er back on. Now you have a mirror image of Dan Cooper as seen on TICKET WELL, have you ever studied the Reno papers. The coded message which told them to decipfer the message and they could find him. It was a combination of Weber's army and navy number. The fbi denied he was in the army until a journalist and myself produce the ARMY records and then the FBI conceded. Had it not have been for old family records and a sharp journalist the Army record would have stayed buried just like the Jefferson composite was buried.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42141 August 14, 2013 GreyCopGC148 ******This is Paul Geivett, I am not a skydiver, or a pilot. I will always fall short on technical questions on these matters. I solved this case on the ground, not in the sky. No descriptions or vague memories, nor discrepancy of 1-2 inches, nor any description of color of clothing, nor the seat he sat in. This case has to be solved on forensics period. Handwriting, DNA on and under stamps or envelope flaps. There are handwriting experts by the thousands that would love to have their name on this case for the pages of history and hands of time. The tickets of all the passengers should be and should have been collected that night... the ticket agent did NOT write the Van 9 letter, nor fill out the envelope to the Oregonian/Playboy letter.... nor fill out a 1958 flight log that seems to have Kenny Christiansens name on it. Nor did he fill out everything Kenny Christiansen wrote since he was in Kindergarten. Have any of you looked at the ticket agents job application? and possibly the 200-500 tickets he wrote out that night? Or the stack of writing Kenneth sent home from the Military... or the fact he quit writing home after the Highjacking? Welcome aboard, btw. I don't know...I'm no handwriting expert, for sure, but, going with the premise that the hijacker filled out the ticket rather than the ticket agent, I briefly looked at DAN vs VAN without magnification and I'm just not seeing the likeness at first glance. Slants, size, rounding looks different to me. Hopefully you will go into more detail. You are not comparing Dan to Van on the envelope, remove the word Vancouver from the letter. Remove the V from Vancouver. Remove the U and the V. Using the d from the end of the word enjoyed and the op from the word cop. Slide the er back on. Now you have a mirror image of Dan Cooper as seen on TICKET Here's what I see - with the caveat that I have a horrible copy of the letter. I really need a magnifier. I'll give you that one D, but not necessarily the others. All of the C's look more angular than the rounded C of the ticket. Almost all of the R's on the letter have a closed loop, as opposed to the ticket. I still say the A's on the letter slant more towards the left. The N's look pretty close. The O's - its hard to say because of the quality but it looks like they start in different places (heavy vs light stroke). Finally the actual word Cooper doesn't match, to me. If there's no way he will be caught, as he alleges in one of the letters, and he feels frisky enough to take the risk to write a letter, why would he disguise the word Cooper? Seems like overkill to me. Not saying your wrong - just that I'm not seeing a mirror image. And again, I'm no handwriting expert. Still wondering about the ticket agent's handwriting samples - have you compared the ticket to other tickets he wrote? And have the envelopes/letters been tested for DNA that you know of? Any results?but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42142 August 14, 2013 skyjack71 Robert99 stated: The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. Jo Replies: I do NOT remember getting a prescription for it in the 70's and it may NOT have been Benzedrine - it could simply have been caffeine tablets. Since Weber had been diagnosed with Polycysitic Kidney he probably was on medication, but I have NO idea what he was taking in the early 70's. I am sure what put him in the hospital was hypertension and that is when they found or confirmed his kidney disease but he would NOT need further assistance until 1987. lol...there's a lot of stuff that requires prescriptions that you can get without a prescription. I remember black beauties back in the day. Diet pills we called em. Take one and clean the entire house in about an hour, talk a mile a minute, scratch the scalp cause it made it tingle, smoke about a million cigarettes, and wear size 2 jeans. I doubt very seriously that any doctor put Duane on benzedrine with hypertension and kidney disease.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42143 August 14, 2013 mrshutter45 I also spent some time on the letters. here's a question. how well did the public know of Dan Cooper vs DB Cooper from November 24, 1971 to lets say January 31,1972. I noticed all the letters are marked DB Cooper vs Dan Cooper, which one would think the actual Cooper would leave his mark by using his real "fake" name that was on the ticket? here is a couple of the tickets Answering my own question, I believe that the ticket agent is deceased. I realize that daily routines can vary, but it should be a relatively simple matter to find out what the common practice was in the 70s -as a general rule, did the ticket agent fill out the tickets or did the passenger? maybe someone in the NW historical society would know. I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42144 August 14, 2013 smokin99*** I also spent some time on the letters. here's a question. how well did the public know of Dan Cooper vs DB Cooper from November 24, 1971 to lets say January 31,1972. I noticed all the letters are marked DB Cooper vs Dan Cooper, which one would think the actual Cooper would leave his mark by using his real "fake" name that was on the ticket? here is a couple of the tickets Answering my own question, I believe that the ticket agent is deceased. I realize that daily routines can vary, but it should be a relatively simple matter to find out what the common practice was in the 70s -as a general rule, did the ticket agent fill out the tickets or did the passenger? maybe someone in the NW historical society would know. I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information. I did quite a bit of airline flying in the same time frame as the hijacking and I never wrote a single thing on an airline ticket or saw any other passenger do so. The airline people did it all. In fact, if you worked for a large organization that had its own airline ticket office, your ticket would probably be delivered to you and completed in all details without any particular input from you personally. Your first personal contact with the airline people would be when you handed the ticket to the agent at check-in or at the boarding gate. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42145 August 14, 2013 Quote I doubt very seriously that any doctor put Duane on benzedrine with hypertension and kidney disease. That is what I was saying and there were things out there one could obtain to keep you awake without a script in 1970. It is a given No Dr. would have prescribes something like that for anyone with hypertension and kidneys that were not functioning at full capacity.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42146 August 14, 2013 Quote I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information. The few times I have flown in my life I never filled anything out. Before the computers the clerks did all the writing and now it is computerized. I do NOT know where this guy is coming from with some of his 'stuff', but so far it is a NO regardless of my stand on Weber. He makes it easy for me to be very objective about his suspect. I think he is a TEST to see just HOW GULLIBLE Cooper seekers are and how easy it is to lead us around on a leash. I want to take this chance to remind you guys about the Jack Anderson files and to ask a question. Did the FBI or CIA successful obtain the records from his wife Olivia. I know they tricked her and the voucher was for ALL his file not just the one pertaining to specific 1970's files. I think they took all 200 boxes and I wondered if she EVER GOT them back. Anderson was the journalist 2 individuals from the Lousiana area went to see and to give depositions regarding Kennedy. One was already using an alias. Seems like this just WENT AWAY! NO one very knew what REALLY HAPPENED!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42147 August 14, 2013 CCharger That's interesting. The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. It was frequently given to military pilots in WW II up to and including Vietnam. It's street name was "bennies" and was used recreationally by beatniks and hippies in the 50s and 60s.it is prescribed for the relief of nasal and bronchial congestion...such as asthma or allergies. This begs the questions...was Coop an asthmatic? Was he a speed head? Was he a military pilot familiar with the stimulant from combat? Was the lycopodium powder present on his tie from his routine use of Benzedrine? Quote lycopodium, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycopodium_powder There are different formulations for different uses - medicines vs industrial. The stuff is a very fine dust and as the above states was used to 'dust for prints' at one time. I would look at the prints the FBi collected to test for the same spores. The obvious thing to look for also is C9 H13(N.1-phenylpropan -2-amine) associated with lycopodium spores, I would think. It is also worth noting the FBI uses latex gloves to handle their evidence. Im not sure what the powder on those gloves is but you might want cross check the gloves for spores. There are photos of SA Carr holding the tie with 'latex gloves' on. Numerous people have handled and examined the tie all wearing protective gloves, dusted with something - But again I would look for these spores and Amp in other evidence like prints, especially any prints taken from the Lav. Evidence of spores is one thing - evidence of Amp and a specific forumulation might lead somewhere. You saw the problem Tom had just tracing-identifying what started as pollen then turned to spores, as I understand the history. ?\ The leap from Amp to pilots might also include truck drivers, and food service workers? (I always include food service workers in deference to H ---) Thats a good question - keep em coming... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42148 August 14, 2013 Here is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42149 August 14, 2013 CChargerHere is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s.Quote I know. I pointed the same thing out years ago however there were exceptions. Lots of exceptions. There wre guys who saw action in WWII, Korea, and Nam who definmately were in their late 40s or early to mid 50s by Nam. I could name a bunch of them ... I want his dna whoever he was. Who knows! Maybe he ran a surplus store somewhere... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42150 August 14, 2013 CChargerHere is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s. I think, and I could be wrong, that a lot of the military or covert ops type people that have been cited as possible contenders, (folks such as Peterson, Burnworth, Braden) were more your professional military / maybe even soldier of fortune types that were older (on the average) then your Vietnam era paratrooper. But I would have to do some re-digging to verify that statement.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1681 1682 1683 1684 1685 1686 1687 1688 1689 1690 1691 Next Page 1686 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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CCharger 0 #42133 August 13, 2013 That's interesting. The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. It was frequently given to military pilots in WW II up to and including Vietnam. It's street name was "bennies" and was used recreationally by beatniks and hippies in the 50s and 60s.it is prescribed for the relief of nasal and bronchial congestion...such as asthma or allergies. This begs the questions...was Coop an asthmatic? Was he a speed head? Was he a military pilot familiar with the stimulant from combat? Was the lycopodium powder present on his tie from his routine use of Benzedrine? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreyCopGC148 0 #42134 August 13, 2013 My reference to Frenchman's bar was regarding my encounter with Larry Carr, Brian Ingram, and the geologist. They were actually filming on Frenchman's bar BECAUSE it was easier access for the film crew. We all know the actual incident occurred at Tina's bar. I observed L. Carr, B. Ingram, and others (Authors, film crew etc) leave on a small boat from the Tina Bar boat ramp to go to the actual location. No one goes to this area to swim because of all the "Cattle" related runoff that enters the Columbia at the location. The gentleman who referenced Frenchman's bar is correct, there was a coin box on the green and white trimmed house, that was always so full, that the money was falling on the ground. The local hippies would break into it for beer money. I remember the grey and red tractor that the farmer used to pull people out when they got stuck in the sand (a common occurrence) Gone now, are the red barns (with the river murals painted on them) and the large silo that you drove by. I remember the good old days too DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreyCopGC148 0 #42135 August 13, 2013 smokin99 ***This is Paul Geivett, I am not a skydiver, or a pilot. I will always fall short on technical questions on these matters. I solved this case on the ground, not in the sky. No descriptions or vague memories, nor discrepancy of 1-2 inches, nor any description of color of clothing, nor the seat he sat in. This case has to be solved on forensics period. Handwriting, DNA on and under stamps or envelope flaps. There are handwriting experts by the thousands that would love to have their name on this case for the pages of history and hands of time. The tickets of all the passengers should be and should have been collected that night... the ticket agent did NOT write the Van 9 letter, nor fill out the envelope to the Oregonian/Playboy letter.... nor fill out a 1958 flight log that seems to have Kenny Christiansens name on it. Nor did he fill out everything Kenny Christiansen wrote since he was in Kindergarten. Have any of you looked at the ticket agents job application? and possibly the 200-500 tickets he wrote out that night? Or the stack of writing Kenneth sent home from the Military... or the fact he quit writing home after the Highjacking? Welcome aboard, btw. I don't know...I'm no handwriting expert, for sure, but, going with the premise that the hijacker filled out the ticket rather than the ticket agent, I briefly looked at DAN vs VAN without magnification and I'm just not seeing the likeness at first glance. Slants, size, rounding looks different to me. Hopefully you will go into more detail. You are not comparing Dan to Van on the envelope, remove the word Vancouver from the letter. Remove the V from Vancouver. Remove the U and the V. Using the d from the end of the word enjoyed and the op from the word cop. Slide the er back on. Now you have a mirror image of Dan Cooper as seen on TICKET DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42136 August 13, 2013 CChargerThat's interesting. The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. It was frequently given to military pilots in WW II up to and including Vietnam. It's street name was "bennies" and was used recreationally by beatniks and hippies in the 50s and 60s.it is prescribed for the relief of nasal and bronchial congestion...such as asthma or allergies. This begs the questions...was Coop an asthmatic? Was he a speed head? Was he a military pilot familiar with the stimulant from combat? Was the lycopodium powder present on his tie from his routine use of Benzedrine? It is unlikely that Cooper was a military pilot, although he may well have been a flight crew member on military transport/cargo type aircraft. Cooper had knowledge of the 727 and knew that the rear stairs could be lowered in flight and that people and cargo could parachute from those stairs. The NWA flight crew did not know that. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42137 August 13, 2013 CChargerI have lurked this thread for months and even posted on it not long ago. As an outside observer, I am shocked by the amount of vitriol and personal attacks that occur here. All of the nasty comments and bickering really becomes an impediment to figuring this case out. There is really great info here, but it is hard to filter through the nasty posts. Also, so many of you have already made your minds up that any new ideas are disregarded or ignored. Is the point of this thread to forward an agenda or exchange ideas and information to solve the case? With that said, here is my two cents: Kaye's research indicated the presence of lycopodium powder on the tie. He suggested that this was from powder used on pills to keep them from sticking together. However, lycopodium powder was also used on latex gloves until 1973 when it was replaced by cornstarch. The suggestion has been made that DB was a chemist or engineer. The use of latex gloves would seem to bolster this idea, no? Any other thoughts on this? Uncertain where you got the information, but I think it falls along the lines of medication. Before I mentioned a dentist and dental work that may have been in progress with the skyjacker and that he might have worked briefly in the laboratory in exchange for services. Cleaning the lab and simple jobs maintaining the equipment. On another NOTE - remember that rubber gloves where OFTEN use by cleaning personnel in public establishment - this includes airports and planes. May have just been co-incidental. Just too common if it was that chemical.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42138 August 13, 2013 Quote I believe there is a remark somewhere in Tosaw's book of Cooper telling Tina that he had some pills to help keep the pilots awake if they needed them. So Cooper apparently had at least one type of pill on his person. Robert99 I skimmed thru it the other day as a refresher and I have not put it away yet. If not in that book in multiple other places!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42139 August 13, 2013 Robert99 stated: The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. Jo Replies: I do NOT remember getting a prescription for it in the 70's and it may NOT have been Benzedrine - it could simply have been caffeine tablets. Since Weber had been diagnosed with Polycysitic Kidney he probably was on medication, but I have NO idea what he was taking in the early 70's. I am sure what put him in the hospital was hypertension and that is when they found or confirmed his kidney disease but he would NOT need further assistance until 1987.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42140 August 13, 2013 QuoteYou are not comparing Dan to Van on the envelope, remove the word Vancouver from the letter. Remove the V from Vancouver. Remove the U and the V. Using the d from the end of the word enjoyed and the op from the word cop. Slide the er back on. Now you have a mirror image of Dan Cooper as seen on TICKET WELL, have you ever studied the Reno papers. The coded message which told them to decipfer the message and they could find him. It was a combination of Weber's army and navy number. The fbi denied he was in the army until a journalist and myself produce the ARMY records and then the FBI conceded. Had it not have been for old family records and a sharp journalist the Army record would have stayed buried just like the Jefferson composite was buried.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #42141 August 14, 2013 GreyCopGC148 ******This is Paul Geivett, I am not a skydiver, or a pilot. I will always fall short on technical questions on these matters. I solved this case on the ground, not in the sky. No descriptions or vague memories, nor discrepancy of 1-2 inches, nor any description of color of clothing, nor the seat he sat in. This case has to be solved on forensics period. Handwriting, DNA on and under stamps or envelope flaps. There are handwriting experts by the thousands that would love to have their name on this case for the pages of history and hands of time. The tickets of all the passengers should be and should have been collected that night... the ticket agent did NOT write the Van 9 letter, nor fill out the envelope to the Oregonian/Playboy letter.... nor fill out a 1958 flight log that seems to have Kenny Christiansens name on it. Nor did he fill out everything Kenny Christiansen wrote since he was in Kindergarten. Have any of you looked at the ticket agents job application? and possibly the 200-500 tickets he wrote out that night? Or the stack of writing Kenneth sent home from the Military... or the fact he quit writing home after the Highjacking? Welcome aboard, btw. I don't know...I'm no handwriting expert, for sure, but, going with the premise that the hijacker filled out the ticket rather than the ticket agent, I briefly looked at DAN vs VAN without magnification and I'm just not seeing the likeness at first glance. Slants, size, rounding looks different to me. Hopefully you will go into more detail. You are not comparing Dan to Van on the envelope, remove the word Vancouver from the letter. Remove the V from Vancouver. Remove the U and the V. Using the d from the end of the word enjoyed and the op from the word cop. Slide the er back on. Now you have a mirror image of Dan Cooper as seen on TICKET Here's what I see - with the caveat that I have a horrible copy of the letter. I really need a magnifier. I'll give you that one D, but not necessarily the others. All of the C's look more angular than the rounded C of the ticket. Almost all of the R's on the letter have a closed loop, as opposed to the ticket. I still say the A's on the letter slant more towards the left. The N's look pretty close. The O's - its hard to say because of the quality but it looks like they start in different places (heavy vs light stroke). Finally the actual word Cooper doesn't match, to me. If there's no way he will be caught, as he alleges in one of the letters, and he feels frisky enough to take the risk to write a letter, why would he disguise the word Cooper? Seems like overkill to me. Not saying your wrong - just that I'm not seeing a mirror image. And again, I'm no handwriting expert. Still wondering about the ticket agent's handwriting samples - have you compared the ticket to other tickets he wrote? And have the envelopes/letters been tested for DNA that you know of? Any results?but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #42142 August 14, 2013 skyjack71 Robert99 stated: The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. Jo Replies: I do NOT remember getting a prescription for it in the 70's and it may NOT have been Benzedrine - it could simply have been caffeine tablets. Since Weber had been diagnosed with Polycysitic Kidney he probably was on medication, but I have NO idea what he was taking in the early 70's. I am sure what put him in the hospital was hypertension and that is when they found or confirmed his kidney disease but he would NOT need further assistance until 1987. lol...there's a lot of stuff that requires prescriptions that you can get without a prescription. I remember black beauties back in the day. Diet pills we called em. Take one and clean the entire house in about an hour, talk a mile a minute, scratch the scalp cause it made it tingle, smoke about a million cigarettes, and wear size 2 jeans. I doubt very seriously that any doctor put Duane on benzedrine with hypertension and kidney disease.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #42143 August 14, 2013 mrshutter45 I also spent some time on the letters. here's a question. how well did the public know of Dan Cooper vs DB Cooper from November 24, 1971 to lets say January 31,1972. I noticed all the letters are marked DB Cooper vs Dan Cooper, which one would think the actual Cooper would leave his mark by using his real "fake" name that was on the ticket? here is a couple of the tickets Answering my own question, I believe that the ticket agent is deceased. I realize that daily routines can vary, but it should be a relatively simple matter to find out what the common practice was in the 70s -as a general rule, did the ticket agent fill out the tickets or did the passenger? maybe someone in the NW historical society would know. I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42144 August 14, 2013 smokin99*** I also spent some time on the letters. here's a question. how well did the public know of Dan Cooper vs DB Cooper from November 24, 1971 to lets say January 31,1972. I noticed all the letters are marked DB Cooper vs Dan Cooper, which one would think the actual Cooper would leave his mark by using his real "fake" name that was on the ticket? here is a couple of the tickets Answering my own question, I believe that the ticket agent is deceased. I realize that daily routines can vary, but it should be a relatively simple matter to find out what the common practice was in the 70s -as a general rule, did the ticket agent fill out the tickets or did the passenger? maybe someone in the NW historical society would know. I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information. I did quite a bit of airline flying in the same time frame as the hijacking and I never wrote a single thing on an airline ticket or saw any other passenger do so. The airline people did it all. In fact, if you worked for a large organization that had its own airline ticket office, your ticket would probably be delivered to you and completed in all details without any particular input from you personally. Your first personal contact with the airline people would be when you handed the ticket to the agent at check-in or at the boarding gate. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42145 August 14, 2013 Quote I doubt very seriously that any doctor put Duane on benzedrine with hypertension and kidney disease. That is what I was saying and there were things out there one could obtain to keep you awake without a script in 1970. It is a given No Dr. would have prescribes something like that for anyone with hypertension and kidneys that were not functioning at full capacity.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42146 August 14, 2013 Quote I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information. The few times I have flown in my life I never filled anything out. Before the computers the clerks did all the writing and now it is computerized. I do NOT know where this guy is coming from with some of his 'stuff', but so far it is a NO regardless of my stand on Weber. He makes it easy for me to be very objective about his suspect. I think he is a TEST to see just HOW GULLIBLE Cooper seekers are and how easy it is to lead us around on a leash. I want to take this chance to remind you guys about the Jack Anderson files and to ask a question. Did the FBI or CIA successful obtain the records from his wife Olivia. I know they tricked her and the voucher was for ALL his file not just the one pertaining to specific 1970's files. I think they took all 200 boxes and I wondered if she EVER GOT them back. Anderson was the journalist 2 individuals from the Lousiana area went to see and to give depositions regarding Kennedy. One was already using an alias. Seems like this just WENT AWAY! NO one very knew what REALLY HAPPENED!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42147 August 14, 2013 CCharger That's interesting. The pills you speak of were Benzedrine. That is an amphetamine that required a prescription in 1971. It was frequently given to military pilots in WW II up to and including Vietnam. It's street name was "bennies" and was used recreationally by beatniks and hippies in the 50s and 60s.it is prescribed for the relief of nasal and bronchial congestion...such as asthma or allergies. This begs the questions...was Coop an asthmatic? Was he a speed head? Was he a military pilot familiar with the stimulant from combat? Was the lycopodium powder present on his tie from his routine use of Benzedrine? Quote lycopodium, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycopodium_powder There are different formulations for different uses - medicines vs industrial. The stuff is a very fine dust and as the above states was used to 'dust for prints' at one time. I would look at the prints the FBi collected to test for the same spores. The obvious thing to look for also is C9 H13(N.1-phenylpropan -2-amine) associated with lycopodium spores, I would think. It is also worth noting the FBI uses latex gloves to handle their evidence. Im not sure what the powder on those gloves is but you might want cross check the gloves for spores. There are photos of SA Carr holding the tie with 'latex gloves' on. Numerous people have handled and examined the tie all wearing protective gloves, dusted with something - But again I would look for these spores and Amp in other evidence like prints, especially any prints taken from the Lav. Evidence of spores is one thing - evidence of Amp and a specific forumulation might lead somewhere. You saw the problem Tom had just tracing-identifying what started as pollen then turned to spores, as I understand the history. ?\ The leap from Amp to pilots might also include truck drivers, and food service workers? (I always include food service workers in deference to H ---) Thats a good question - keep em coming... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCharger 0 #42148 August 14, 2013 Here is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42149 August 14, 2013 CChargerHere is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s.Quote I know. I pointed the same thing out years ago however there were exceptions. Lots of exceptions. There wre guys who saw action in WWII, Korea, and Nam who definmately were in their late 40s or early to mid 50s by Nam. I could name a bunch of them ... I want his dna whoever he was. Who knows! Maybe he ran a surplus store somewhere... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #42150 August 14, 2013 CChargerHere is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s. I think, and I could be wrong, that a lot of the military or covert ops type people that have been cited as possible contenders, (folks such as Peterson, Burnworth, Braden) were more your professional military / maybe even soldier of fortune types that were older (on the average) then your Vietnam era paratrooper. But I would have to do some re-digging to verify that statement.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1681 1682 1683 1684 1685 1686 1687 1688 1689 1690 1691 Next Page 1686 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47
smokin99 0 #42150 August 14, 2013 CChargerHere is another thought to chew on. Many think Coop was ex-military - SOG paratrooper perhaps. The covert operations connection to some suspects is well documented. However, witnesses I consistently describe Coop as in his mid to late 40s. This is far older than any of those guys at that time. The average age of an American GI in Nam was 19. If he was ex-military, it is far more likely to be a Korean War vet rather than Vietnam. There weren't many 45 year olds jumping out of planes in combat in late 60s, early 70s. I think, and I could be wrong, that a lot of the military or covert ops type people that have been cited as possible contenders, (folks such as Peterson, Burnworth, Braden) were more your professional military / maybe even soldier of fortune types that were older (on the average) then your Vietnam era paratrooper. But I would have to do some re-digging to verify that statement.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
