DB Cooper

[Amazon 7]

Quote

...yet I don't think I know a whole lot of skydivers, military or otherwise that have ever "needed" a drink before jumping. In fact, it's generally not something that goes with making a jump. Inadvisable really.

Quote

Trust me Paul...it WAS a bit different in the 70's.

There was some drinking goin' on at the DZ...before, during & after 'operations'.

I even had to hold the pilots beer during take-off during MY 1st jump.

Oh hell yeah... and if it was not drinkin.... there were plenty of people tokin it out... hell I knew people who were doing acid at boogies.. and jumong their asses off

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Matt: I assure you im will beyound a mid range military survivalist. I was a chief Instructor at NWTC (Northern Warfare Training Center) Ft greely Alaska. Which is the top of the schools for all services for survival training. I have many other qualifications.My point is surviving this operation. So no I do not withdraw my challenge. And I still believe the man did not survive this Jump. However if you feel your Ego has been challenged and you wish to try this jump under the same conditions Cooper did , Identical in every way, Im sure we can find some sponsors. Remember this is untested territory and Cooper didn't even walk out of the woods with the money.If you do then you have proven that LD Cooper , Christsen, Petersen. Weber and all the other candidates may have survived this jump. Although it is clear that you are more experienced than any of them. Jerry

I just guess we USAF types just trained our aircrew at the USAAC and USAF in our Survival training better... since thousands of them did jumps just like this.. and survived.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

artwardo: Its a good thing the FAA didn't find out about the pilots action's. They would have suspended his license. Jerry

What did I say Jerry, that would lead you to believe that the pilot who flew me on my first jump....had a license?


Heck that ole POS hadn't been annual-ed in probably 5years!


It was as Matt suggested...a whole different time & culture then.

I had a hundred plus hours of 182 'PIC' time before I ever took a 'formal' CFI flying lesson...the only reason I took the written when I did was so I could use the radio and land at a controlled field now & then.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=22809;


In fact, did you know...if you would have wanted to skydive and remain an anonymous drunk while doing so ~it wasn't really very hard, and ya certainly wouldn't have been the only one doin' it!


Not just directed at you Jerry, but a whole lotta red herring speculation would be put to rest IF y'all would just listen to and believe what some of the people (re: experienced skydivers) on here are telling you. 'Zon and I have no 'favorite' suspect, but we both have told you that the jump was quite possible to successfully complete without extensive training...even quite probable on the success WITH a bit of training.

I'll even go ya one better than Matt's offer...

~you pay for the bird, you pick out the clothes, the rig, the night, the weather and the LZ...take care of all that AND buy dinner afterwards and hell, I'll do it TWICE for ya, once sober and once not!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

hell I knew people who were doing acid at boogies.. and jumong their asses off

Umm...Err...yeah, ME TOO!

"Blue is UP, Green is DOWN...if WE don't aim, we'll MISS the ground!"

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Robert99 38]

Quote

hell I knew people who were doing acid at boogies.. and jumong their asses off

Umm...Err...yeah, ME TOO!

"Blue is UP, Green is DOWN...if WE don't aim, we'll MISS the ground!"

Maybe it was a good thing that I made my last jump in 1964, before the socializing took over.

[JerryThomas 0]

airtwardo: There is no doubt in my military mind that the Skydivers here on dropzone are the elite. The best in the world. Mat, amazon,Quade, 377,Guru312, ect. Thats why I and many others feel this case is best discussed here on dropzone.To be honest challenging anyone to duplicate this jump is pointless. Your experience levels is will beyound what Cooper could of had and most of you have been tested under many different conditions.So if I have offended any of you I apologize that has never been my intentions. Jerry

[Guru312 0]

Quote

I just guess we USAF types just trained our aircrew at the USAAC and USAF in our Survival training better... since thousands of them did jumps just like this.. and survived.

Of course.

But...we are speaking two different languages: We are speaking Practical Experience and they are speaking Intellectual Hubris.

Some of these folks actually believe that a jumper can't recover from a spin without seeing the ground.

I personally know dozens, if not hundreds, of jumpers who could make that jump, myself included. I do not believe that DB had *any* practical parachuting experience. He certainly was not special operations trained or he would have planned better.

Tying the money bag securely enough to keep it attached during exit and opening shock...probably not. I'm a rigger and I could not tie that money bag to my harness securely without help.

I spoke with the president of the company that made the bank bag. During our hour long conversation we concluded that the bank bag could easily stay submerged or in the elements for many, many years. And that's exactly what the evidence indicates: The money survived.

My bet is that DB survived because the jump isn't that big of a deal.

To the whuffos out there: We may not have the formal education and intellectual fire power that you think you have but we do have vast...and varied... practical experience dealing with jumping out of airplanes.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

airtwardo: There is no doubt in my military mind that the Skydivers here on drop-zone are the elite. The best in the world. Mat, amazon,Quade, 377,Guru312, etc. That's why I and many others feel this case is best discussed here on drop-zone.To be honest challenging anyone to duplicate this jump is pointless. Your experience levels is will beyond what Cooper could of had and most of you have been tested under many different conditions.So if I have offended any of you I apologize that has never been my intentions. Jerry

No Jerry don't take me wrong~

...seriously no offence taken or meant, I actually WOULD do it and under the conditions I said, to if nothing else prove that it 'was' possible under the conditions Copper faced that night.

Maybe it's 'because' of the experience on this site that we're so convinced that the jumping portion of the crime...though no doubt challenging, was not all that difficult to pull off.

No matter WHICH way ya walk down the stairs!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[quade 3]

Quote

Show us the bones, oh wise one. No bones, then he made it.

Drivel. Pure drivel.

Hundreds of people have died in the woods and there was never a trace of them.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

I just guess we USAF types just trained our aircrew at the USAAC and USAF in our Survival training better... since thousands of them did jumps just like this.. and survived.

Of course.

But...we are speaking two different languages: We are speaking Practical Experience and they are speaking Intellectual Hubris.

Some of these folks actually believe that a jumper can't recover from a spin without seeing the ground.

I personally know dozens, if not hundreds, of jumpers who could make that jump, myself included. I do not believe that DB had *any* practical parachuting experience. He certainly was not special operations trained or he would have planned better.

Tying the money bag securely enough to keep it attached during exit and opening shock...probably not. I'm a rigger and I could not tie that money bag to my harness securely without help.

I spoke with the president of the company that made the bank bag. During our hour long conversation we concluded that the bank bag could easily stay submerged or in the elements for many, many years. And that's exactly what the evidence indicates: The money survived.

My bet is that DB survived because the jump isn't that big of a deal.

To the whuffos out there: We may not have the formal education and intellectual fire power that you think you have but we do have vast...and varied... practical experience dealing with jumping out of airplanes.

I am pretty good with knots.. and since I taught a whole lot of college boys how to tie em with every class using that same 550 suspension line... I bet I could get that ole bag tied on quite nice thank you..

As far as spins.... I have been known to do a bit of speed skydiving... and if you get unstable at over 250 MPH you get some fun assed wicked spins... hell people pay serious money to get thrill rides like that.
Funny thing though.. is I always managed to clear the spin in a few seconds and get pencilled back out in a head down no lift in a few heartbeats.


Deployment would be a breeze.. I have a whole bunch of C-9 unmodified canopy deployments and they are just not that bad at all and it would certainly be my canopy of choice if I was jumping at night into a forest in the Pacific NorthWET. Getting a good hangup in a tree just aint that hard of a landing... I would CERTAINLY prefer that landing.... than landing a C-9 on terra way too firma these days... but either way... its not a biggie.

[Robert99 38]

Quade,

To change the subject slightly and to something that actually can be answered with certainity, what were the requirements for a B license in 1963?

[quade 3]

Quote

hell I knew people who were doing acid at boogies.. and jumong their asses off

Umm...Err...yeah, ME TOO!
"Blue is UP, Green is DOWN...if WE don't aim, we'll MISS the ground!"

Sure. That sort of thing still goes on today with some of the flakes, but not very often among the professionals. I've jumped with a number of military groups for training purposes and I've never seen any of them have anything but a sober approach to their jumping.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

hell I knew people who were doing acid at boogies.. and jumong their asses off

Umm...Err...yeah, ME TOO!

"Blue is UP, Green is DOWN...if WE don't aim, we'll MISS the ground!"

Maybe it was a good thing that I made my last jump in 1964, before the socializing took over.


Ya don't know what ya missed..but c'est la vie!


Heck I was there and I can't remember 1/2 of it!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[quade 3]

Quote

Quade,

To change the subject slightly and to something that actually can be answered with certainity, what were the requirements for a B license in 1963?

Man, that's before my time.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[matthewcline 0]

Quote

Quote

The whole argument he went into a tumble or spin and it caused his death, is one of ignorance.

Matt

Please permit me to quote, without further comment, the following:

"Aerodynamics is a beautifully INTELLECTUAL [italics in the original source] discipline, incorporating elements from a millennium of human thought that finally coalesced during the nineteenth century to produce the exponential growth in powered flight that we see today".


SOURCE: Dr. John D. Anderson, Jr., "A History of Aerodynamics and Its Impact on Flying Machines", page 3, Cambridge University Press, 1997.

Relevance?

Maybe you are not learned in Skydiving or Military Freefall Parachuting? That information is relavent to the discussion. Having that experience is germain to the argument.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

hell I knew people who were doing acid at boogies.. and jumong their asses off

Umm...Err...yeah, ME TOO!
"Blue is UP, Green is DOWN...if WE don't aim, we'll MISS the ground!"

Sure. That sort of thing still goes on today with some of the flakes, but not very often among the professionals. I've jumped with a number of military groups for training purposes and I've never seen any of them have anything but a sober approach to their jumping.


Absolutely...no argument there but we're not talking about TODAY.

I'm saying that back in the 70's, when the crime took place the skydiving culture was VERY different than it is today...that Mr. Cooper having a few before the jump doesn't necessarily mean anything regarding a possible clue as to his experience level.

It could have been some liquid courage for a n00b, or it could have been SOP for an experienced jumper 'back in the day'.



Trust me Paul I've BTDT, and I won't be on the same AC as someone I feel to be under the influence...but this is the old and careful 21st century me, the guy in the 70's with the ripped-up & duct-taped Papillon and the Pony-tail ~ well he wasn't quite so 'careful' or wise!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[matthewcline 0]

Quote

Matt: I assure you im will beyound a mid range military survivalist. I was a chief Instructor at NWTC (Northern Warfare Training Center) Ft greely Alaska. Which is the top of the schools for all services for survival training. I have many other qualifications.My point is surviving this operation. So no I do not withdraw my challenge. And I still believe the man did not survive this Jump. However if you feel your Ego has been challenged and you wish to try this jump under the same conditions Cooper did , Identical in every way, Im sure we can find some sponsors. Remember this is untested territory and Cooper didn't even walk out of the woods with the money.If you do then you have proven that LD Cooper , Christsen, Petersen. Weber and all the other candidates may have survived this jump. Although it is clear that you are more experienced than any of them. Jerry

So we need to find a skydive newbie, with no survival training, the wrong clothing and having had a few drinks? then this can be tested?

I agree Amazon, Twardo, Quade, Myself and many others would taint the test. I too am a NWTC Grad (all five phases taught there now) and spent three years and three months assigned to Alaska.

I jumped fromt the 727, with many a "newer" jumper, it was the thing for the Civilian Jumpers to flock too, they didn't jump a "jet" every week like I did.. All of us got stable and enjoyed our jumps.

So we find we went in a circle. The question is to KNOW if any there is any actual documented training for any of the subjects in freefall parachuting. Word of mouth doesn't count it is hear say. An actual DD 214 listing or Grad Cert would be a start.

Then to know their extent, if any, in Woodsmanship.

Then we look in to his inebriation. How many drinks did he have? over how long a time? who saw him ACTUALLY drink them?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Robert99 38]

Quote

Quote

Quote

The whole argument he went into a tumble or spin and it caused his death, is one of ignorance.

Matt

Please permit me to quote, without further comment, the following:

"Aerodynamics is a beautifully INTELLECTUAL [italics in the original source] discipline, incorporating elements from a millennium of human thought that finally coalesced during the nineteenth century to produce the exponential growth in powered flight that we see today".


SOURCE: Dr. John D. Anderson, Jr., "A History of Aerodynamics and Its Impact on Flying Machines", page 3, Cambridge University Press, 1997.

Relevance?

Maybe you are not learned in Skydiving or Military Freefall Parachuting? That information is relavent to the discussion. Having that experience is germain to the argument.

Matt

As I understand your remarks, the egg came before the chicken and the cart goes in front of the horse.

[matthewcline 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

The whole argument he went into a tumble or spin and it caused his death, is one of ignorance.

Matt

Please permit me to quote, without further comment, the following:

"Aerodynamics is a beautifully INTELLECTUAL [italics in the original source] discipline, incorporating elements from a millennium of human thought that finally coalesced during the nineteenth century to produce the exponential growth in powered flight that we see today".


SOURCE: Dr. John D. Anderson, Jr., "A History of Aerodynamics and Its Impact on Flying Machines", page 3, Cambridge University Press, 1997.

Relevance?

Maybe you are not learned in Skydiving or Military Freefall Parachuting? That information is relavent to the discussion. Having that experience is germain to the argument.

Matt

As I understand your remarks, the egg came before the chicken and the cart goes in front of the horse.

I am not talking in metaphors or colloquialisms.

His argument was Cooper could not have controlled the exit. First he claimed the bag would be the issue, then airspeed. He has since added it is due to being inexperienced, also not entirely true, now we have the drinks to consider. I think the math will rule the drinks to a "near none", if not a, "none factor".

Wiki shows, when Cooper did the HiJacking, from 2:50 PM to 8:13 PM one Bourbon and Soda was ordered. It does not say he had any more or if he even finished that one drink. If that is accurate, the drinks are a none factor.

I guess that makes him inexperienced for the times then, aye Twardo?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[JerryThomas 0]

Mat What years did you instruct there. Gulkana Glacier. Black Rapids, Fire tire hill. Donellys Dome.Ring a Bell . Jerry

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Amazon: Go get dressed up just like Cooper. Jump under the same conditions. After You've Smoked a pack of Raleighs and drank a few shots. Let me know how it works out for you. Prove that you can still do it, if you can. Jerry

According to the FBI there was only 8 butts - that is NOT a pack Jerry.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

OK tough guy, I will do it. You need to get the funds and equipment, I will even use Amazan's offered rig.

Conditions - Since the argument is the exit and stability we will jump over a DZ. The rest will be as you ask, weather, time, altitude, etc.

Here is your responsibilities:

Get two sources (eye witnesses) of proof of how he tied the bag on, no speculation.

Get the 727 FAA certified and paid for no less than 2 jumps.

Get the shoes and suit.

OR

You can just except that the numerous people here who have jumped not only the 727 but numerous other Jets and High Performance Aircraft are right. Cooper COULD HAVE exited just fine and been stable, chances are if he had even a minimal amount of experience this is not too hard to do.

The whole argument he went into a tumble or spin and it caused his death, is one of ignorance.

Matt

That post deserves a round of Applause - maybe it will stop Jerry Thomas from using band width regarding this same thing over and over. I have always believed that Cooper did NOT expect to survive - The fact that he did survive surprised the Cooper himself.

You guys who have never jumped who post in this thread and those who have made one of 2 jump or learned in the military - PUT yourself in the shoes of Cooper and ask yourself why Cooper made the decisions he made that night in Nov of 1971.

The guy had to have been desperate and felt he had NOTHING to live for. No one ever seems to remember what Tina Mucklow told me on the phone and what she told the FBI. "He was a very SAD Man".

Duane Weber was a VERY SAD man in Nov of 1971. He learned he had the same disease his mother died of. The memory of how she struggled for 2 yrs on the elementary kidney machines of 1956 was NOT a pleasant memory. He did NOT want to die that way. Weber had lost everything - he was a two bit criminal who always got caught and I will forever believe if the tie belonged to Cooper it was a message to someone that it was him. The pictures his ex-wife sent me speak for themselves.

How many time do I have to post the picture of the tie Duane wore the yr before the crime. Note the tie clip even though it is a fuzzy old polaroid pic versus the Tie Tac the FBI had in their possession.

Note the clip is placed from the left in both pictures - Cooper was left handed.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Quote

artwardo: Its a good thing the FAA didn't find out about the pilots action's. They would have suspended his liscense. Jerry

OK, that was a different time and a different culture. Why do you still insist on trying to tell experts in their field how things should work in that field?

How many drinks did Cooper ACTUALLY DRINK? Not how many did he order, but actually consumed.

Matt

BINGO! I don't know who you are and I don't care if you do NOT think Weber was Cooper. You do say it the way it is and I appreciate this. You are right about the drinks - Cooper spilled one and perhaps Georger will know how many Cooper actually drank...

The size of the drink glasses on the plane were NOT large in 1971 and they were glass, if I remember correctly.

Some of the posters only create myths about the actual crime - No Journalist would ever be able to use this thread as a reference unless he read the complete thread. I believe that might be as difficult as sitting down and reading the 1st Testament. Sorting myth from facts.

We lost our Myth versus Fact Keeper (Sluggo) and no one knows how he is or has heard from him in months. His site has not been updated for months and I fear the worse.

Maybe Sluggo just moved on with life as many of us need to do.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

I am pretty good with knots.. and since I taught a whole lot of college boys how to tie em with every class using that same 550 suspension line... I bet I could get that ole bag tied on quite nice thank you..

I have held on to this for a LONG LONG time, but perhaps now that some of you think the jump was survivable - check out the picture I hope I have in a size I can download to the DZ. Duane in his Boy South Outfit. He won all of the knot challenges and he used this skill in the N.W. in the 40's and if the prison records still exist (probably there also). He displayed his ability with the ropes and knots many times during our 17 yrs marriage. When he secured something or fixed something - it was a sure thing it would last.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[quade 3]

Quote

The size of the drink glasses on the plane were NOT large in 1971 and they were glass, if I remember correctly.

A shot in that time period is "only" 1 ounce (50ml now). The physical size of the glass doesn't really matter. It would have been a mini-bottle containing a single shot of whatever alcohol poured into it and if the drink called for any sort of mixer such as "soda" that then would have been added to more or less fill it, but in any case the alcohol contained in the glass would be the same. Roughly 0.4 ounces mixed with whatever, straight or on the rocks.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver