GreyCopGC148 0 #42551 August 23, 2013 Just posted video 5 Ridgefield Wildlife Refuge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzzGN9DXw5s&feature=youtu.be I will be returning to the Silverstar area and continue to the top tomorrow -GC148 DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ParrotheadVol 70 #42552 August 23, 2013 377Blevins wroteQuoteNo trouble getting on, but I recently upgraded to 50mb internet and a new computer. Don't believe it. You don't actually GET 50 megs but it's better. I ran Speedtest and it was maybe 30/14. Liars. Show me an honest cable company anywhere. I dare you. My real sustainable speed is about 60% of what they claim I am getting. It briefly flashes up to the advertised speed for about one second, which I am sure their lawyers advised them to do. I need Snowmman to hack their server and up my speed. Saw a photo of the Dash 80, Boeings prototype for the 707 jetliner. The test pilots are wearing chutes. One is clearly visible and has the unique chest strap configuration that identifies it as an NB 6 or NB 8. Boeing knew what rig was needed for a jet jump. Cooper did too. 377 I won't name the company, but I'm a sales rep for a Major cable company. Honest? I'll say this, I'm the most honest cable salesman you'll ever meet. My honesty has actually lost me sales before, and quite often. But that's okay. I can sleep at night. I actually do get the advertised 50 Mbps speed that I pay for. I just have trouble with this site sometimes."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ParrotheadVol 70 #42553 August 23, 2013 377 Quote and the bundles were untouched by human hands until Ingram found them. Thats the simplest explanation, but how did the bundles get to Tena Bar? I cant reconcile that location with what I believe was the 727's flight path. That money find drives me crazy. I just can't see it getting from the plane to that beach with no human intervention. TK did a pretty careful review of the flight plan data and so did Sluggo. The placard find seems to correlate with their conclusions about the fight path, but it's just one point and the placard has never been conclusively tied to that particular airplane... although its highly likely that it came from she NORJACK plane. Everything was just fine until Brian messed things up with that money find. 377 I don't disagree with any of that. How far and how hard of a hike is it from where Cooper is believed to have landed to Tena Bar? If Cooper made it close to there before falling victim to the elements or injuries from his jump, the money find is easier explained. No need for a plant, no need for a wash down theory. I'm not familiar with the area, so maybe this isn't feasible. But I don't buy the WW theory and I don't buy that the money was a plant. Not many options left."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ParrotheadVol 70 #42554 August 23, 2013 testxyzQuoteI must respectfully disagree. If Carr said the bundles were not equal, I will take his word for it. Besides, to me, the path of least resistance is that Cooper bailed with the cash, and the bundles were untouched by human hands until Ingram found them. Post number 844, April 1, 2008 from Ckret... "It is my understanding the money was wraped in rubber bands, no paper bands. the money was put together in different bill counts so it looked as if it was put together in a hurry." That is not the most definitive statement and it doesn't seem logical to me. Cooper has a bomb on the plane and the bank employees purposely radomized the bundles thus making it hard for Cooper to quickly sample check the money count in a few bundles. The path of least resistance is to bundle them evenly so Cooper won't potentially get upset. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one, and that's okay. Could the elements remove ten bills and leave the rest of the bundle intact? I get the feeling - and I could be wrong - that you lean toward a plant. Who planted it and why?"They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCharger 0 #42555 August 23, 2013 GreyCopGC148Just posted video 5 Ridgefield Wildlife Refuge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzzGN9DXw5s&feature=youtu.be I will be returning to the Silverstar area and continue to the top tomorrow -GC148 Your video has a rather large error. You claim that the search area was south of LaCenter by Ridgefield. It was well north and east of there near Ariel. Also, all this cloak and dagger stuff is annoying. What's your theory? Lay it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42556 August 23, 2013 ParrotheadVol *** Quote and the bundles were untouched by human hands until Ingram found them. Thats the simplest explanation, but how did the bundles get to Tena Bar? I cant reconcile that location with what I believe was the 727's flight path. That money find drives me crazy. I just can't see it getting from the plane to that beach with no human intervention. TK did a pretty careful review of the flight plan data and so did Sluggo. The placard find seems to correlate with their conclusions about the fight path, but it's just one point and the placard has never been conclusively tied to that particular airplane... although its highly likely that it came from she NORJACK plane. Everything was just fine until Brian messed things up with that money find. 377 I don't disagree with any of that. How far and how hard of a hike is it from where Cooper is believed to have landed to Tena Bar? If Cooper made it close to there before falling victim to the elements or injuries from his jump, the money find is easier explained. No need for a plant, no need for a wash down theory. I'm not familiar with the area, so maybe this isn't feasible. But I don't buy the WW theory and I don't buy that the money was a plant. Not many options left. 377, If the proposed flight path doesn't satisfy you mentally, it apparently does so emotionally on some level despite your doubts. Can the FBI (or whoever prepared that famous map), TK, Sluggo, and yourself be wrong about the flight path? I doubt if you have yet arrived at the point where you can give an answer to that which you yourself can truly accept. So if you can't find Cooper in the area where he is supposed to be, then he will be in the area where he is not supposed to be. Of course, this requires some mental adjustments. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42557 August 23, 2013 Robert99 ****** Quote and the bundles were untouched by human hands until Ingram found them. Thats the simplest explanation, but how did the bundles get to Tena Bar? I cant reconcile that location with what I believe was the 727's flight path. That money find drives me crazy. I just can't see it getting from the plane to that beach with no human intervention. TK did a pretty careful review of the flight plan data and so did Sluggo. The placard find seems to correlate with their conclusions about the fight path, but it's just one point and the placard has never been conclusively tied to that particular airplane... although its highly likely that it came from she NORJACK plane. Everything was just fine until Brian messed things up with that money find. 377 I don't disagree with any of that. How far and how hard of a hike is it from where Cooper is believed to have landed to Tena Bar? If Cooper made it close to there before falling victim to the elements or injuries from his jump, the money find is easier explained. No need for a plant, no need for a wash down theory. I'm not familiar with the area, so maybe this isn't feasible. But I don't buy the WW theory and I don't buy that the money was a plant. Not many options left. 377, If the proposed flight path doesn't satisfy you mentally, it apparently does so emotionally on some level despite your doubts. Can the FBI (or whoever prepared that famous map), TK, Sluggo, and yourself be wrong about the flight path? I doubt if you have yet arrived at the point where you can give an answer to that which you yourself can truly accept. So if you can't find Cooper in the area where he is supposed to be, then he will be in the area where he is not supposed to be. Of course, this requires some mental adjustments. Robert99 Quote This is all pretty funny to me. Larry was flexible. Eng evidently has gone backwards to the orthodox view. Robert99 has done a spectacular analysis (imho) presented some splendid data to consider. I confess I think this is akk pretty funny. A guy named Copernicus is waiting in the wings ... thats what I sense! I admit Im slightly prejudiced in this matter ... Farlung spoiled me with sagas of a newer better way... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42558 August 23, 2013 GreyCopGC148Just posted video 5 Ridgefield Wildlife Refuge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzzGN9DXw5s&feature=youtu.be I will be returning to the Silverstar area and continue to the top tomorrow -GC148Quote See you at the Lazy-Z Reunion in November. Thats: Lazy Z Mh Park 1004 NE 72ND ST Vancouver WA 98665 in case you get lost. Say hello to Vern and the boys. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42559 August 23, 2013 That is to the path of least resistance. A little more information...... In February of 2008 the PCGS curreny people found 35 additional serial numbers within Ingram bundles. "This process revealed 35 additional full serial numbers that are on the FBI’s 1971 complete list of notes given as ransom, but apparently were not recorded when the notes discovered by Mr. Ingram in 1980 subsequently were inventoried by investigators. We are pleased to provide the FBI with these ‘new’ numbers with the hope that any new evidence may provide useful leads in this case." http://www.coinnews.net/2008/02/27/pcgs-currency-notifies-fbi-of-d-b-cooper-serial-numbers-3953/ A few months later in June of 2008 PCGS says "Ingram found approximately $5,800 of the $200,000 ransom given to the skyjacker" after the 35 additional serial numbers were discovered a few months earlier. http://www.coinnews.net/2008/06/13/db-cooper-notes-make-37k-at-heritages-americana-memorabilia-auction/ So it seems unclear to the PCGS currency people if Ingram found exactly $5,800 dollars.Quote ... and there is no way to know where the 3 bills TK examined fit into the Ingram bundles... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreyCopGC148 0 #42560 August 23, 2013 CCharger***Just posted video 5 Ridgefield Wildlife Refuge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzzGN9DXw5s&feature=youtu.be I will be returning to the Silverstar area and continue to the top tomorrow -GC148 Your video has a rather large error. You claim that the search area was south of LaCenter by Ridgefield. It was well north and east of there near Ariel. Also, all this cloak and dagger stuff is annoying. What's your theory? Lay it out.[/quote This was to keep locals from compromising the crime scene or stealing the money and burying the body. The FBI has held back 4 facts in the case that would only be known if you knew the truth. Apparently I knew all four and things they didn't know. This is why they met with me that day. I rode my motorcycle 170 miles to meet with Curtis Eng from FBI. I was only the second person he has been willing to meet with. You can call me any time,360 975 9601 I have nothing to hide or conceal. I will go anywhere you would like and film. You will slowly see every body start to copy me and say the money was planted. When you look back before 6 12 2013 no one will say that the money was planted.... but now after 6 13 2013 they will all say it was planted. Look back at the geologist video, he's floating money up on Washougal, but now will start saying it was planted. There are certain people that have known this all along, but are lying to you. Now people have confessed to me and they know when and where. Call me, there is absolutely nothing about this case I do no know. Isn't that right Brian? you never found that money. I will take a polygraph test, will you? Curtis Eng has stated to me that you have wasted at least 1 million dollars of man hours.. DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42561 August 23, 2013 Robert99***QuoteDISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory. 377 JT also told me a few years ago that one of the chase aircraft had a visual sighting of the airliner as it crossed the Columbia River far, far on the east side of Portland. Unfortunately, the chase pilots apparently don't remember that. All available information is that the chase pilots (the T-33 and the F-106s), plus Himmelsbach in his helicopter, headed for the southwest side of Portland. Even the so-called FBI flight path map (source actually unknown), gives a flight path on the west side of Portland for the airliner. On the WW theory, in my personal opinion, Tom Kaye has made a conclusive case for the WW theory being completely wrong. Robert99Quote Neither do any of the controllers remember it that way. JT says 305 crossed at near or over the Troutdale airport. Nobody remembers that happening. Nobody can confirm any of the specifics that would be required for a WW or a Troutdale route. And still, JT maintains this version. But JT is unable to provide anything that would substantiate his story. It's 'his' story and 'his' story' alone so far. JT says this all comes from Himmelsbach. We have been at this for years and there is literally nothing to substantiate anything JT is saying (H is saying). I agree from the info I have about the area the T33's were routed to, by R2. We discussed and shared info about this before - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42562 August 23, 2013 377 Quote DISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory. 377 Quote He broke this 'after' Tom's tests ... to kind of tweek everyone. Is it true? Who knows. It's irrelevant if there is no demonstration or documentation of a previous experiment. Things at T-Bar comes from somewhere (and everywhere?). I have asked until blue in the face where 'the bulk of things found on Tina Bar' come from ... and nobody could cite a specific (even general) source. Myt guess is Amazon who lived at Catapillar Island would say things on Tina Bar 'come from everywhere!'... and as far as I know she would be right. That leaves open the possibility that 'yes' things from the Washougal could (and maybe do) wind up on Tina Bar ... sometimes? So far as I know the USG or anyone else has ever run basic flow tests, to see where debris is coming from or going? If they have I would love to see the data. And I have a very specific reason for wanting to see such data. Such data could be fed into a probability model. And I have a Russian probability modeler here who would love to run a few computer simulations. I asked him if he would be willing at the outset of the formation of the science team and he was willing back then - and he's still here slaving away ... I think R99 would like to see some flow test data! Some 'real' flow test data! Not just stories dropped out of nowhere that made Ckret even blush. We've been down this road with JT before and it's always a dead end. Nuff said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #42563 August 23, 2013 Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42564 August 23, 2013 Robert99 *** Two or three bands per bundle ... which will make R99 happy (pivot-torque-force-direction.. fanning theory)! [ Okay. Georger here are the facts again as shown in Tom Kaye's money analysis which is available on his web page. The money in Tom Kaye's illustration was clearly constrained only on one end when found. It may have had two or more rubber bands on it when delivered to Cooper but all the bands either moved to one end of the bundle or else the other bands disappeared and only one band on one end of the bundle was holding it together when it was finally covered by sand. Assuming that the Georger Hypothesis (that the bills were found flat side down) is correct, then the "fanning" of the bills took place while the bottom of the bundle was constrained by the sand and the top of the bundle was exposed to moving water. The "fanning" and removal of portions of the top bills in the bundle would require some time, perhaps two or three weeks. When the bundle was completely covered by sand, the "fanning" would stop. Then quite a bit of time passes, the Ingrams decide to dig a fire pit, and the rest is history. Other things being equal, and they probably aren't, the end of the bundle with the rubber band still reasonably intact would be restrained by the sand first. Then the lighter end, with the bills free to move both vertically and horizontally, would incur the most water damage. The water action that caused the "fanning" was counter-clockwise (as viewed from above) with respect to the rubber band end of the bundle. If the bundle was moving downstream in the Columbia when it lodged in the sand (see the disclaimer at the bottom of this post), then the bundle would be oriented with the rubber band end pointing toward the river, generally speaking, and the loose end pointing toward the shore. If the bundle was moving towards or into the Columbia from the shore when it lodged in the sand, then the rubber band end would be pointed upstream, general speaking again, and the loose end pointed downstream. In this case, the "fanning" action would require water moving into the river from the shore. DISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Quote Ok. well... I didn't realise I had a flat-side-down hypothesis but my visualisation of the Ingram find is a stack (wad) of cash flat side down because Patricia (and others) have said when the sand was bushed away, at one point they could see remnants of rubber bands across the face of the bills still in the ground. This to me indicates flat side down. Brian described it to me this way: Brian moved aside and his father got down and dug a bit and pulled the first wad of cash up, then dug deeper and pulled a second wad up, and dug further and wider and pulled a smaller third wad up. They dug deeper and wider, then further out and around the find, but didn't find anything more. Galen Cook's witnesses who claim they found bills earlier in the same area but further downstream from the Ingram find, claim their parts of bills were basically on the surface to be recognisable as money, flat side up, and several bills in a recession one witnesses describes as a 'hole'. (I hope I have Galen's account correct ... if I dont he will email me and correct what Im saying). The one thing the Ingrams and others have remarked about, is that the bills were more-or-less cemented together (as a kind of block) and required pulling or soaking apart, after the fact. Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Maybe in response to some force like pressure from water being applied from a particular direction. If the money bag impacted the earth one would expect evidence of shock. Maybe the torquing you cite is evidence of impact. I do know Tom examined his bills for evidence of extreme shock and I dont think he found anything of an obvious nature, that I recall. But, it is tempting to look for force-direction to try and identify a direction from which the Ingram money came. You are not the first person to raise this issue. Two agents raised this issue with Palmer following Palmer's report, because Palmer was assuming the money had arrived by flow, and he had made a comment about the edges of the bills being worn perhaps due to 'the bundles rolling down the river on the bottom of the river'... one agent questioned that rather strenously. Let me leave this here ... because I am sure this dscussion is not over. (I need to go out and check on a few things and stretch my legs). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42565 August 23, 2013 377QuoteDISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory. 377 Claimed, but NEVER proven! One can say what they wish to make a point, but that does not mean it is fact or proven. I know of few who would have the creditials to make a statement like that based on the science and backed up by the science. ICopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42566 August 23, 2013 Quote Robert99 stated; JT also told me a few years ago that one of the chase aircraft had a visual sighting of the airliner as it crossed the Columbia River far, far on the east side of Portland. Unfortunately, the chase pilots apparently don't remember that. Well, what can I say - I have been saying East for 17 yrs. I didn't know until I went to WA for the 2ed and 3rd time (2001 and then confirmed it in 2010)....yet,this thread and "others" concluded the flight was West of Portland and I have argued for yrs it was NOT. I still say the airplane was on East side of Portland as it crossed the river. All I had was my memory and the things a man showed me and told me. A man who said "I'm Dan Cooper" only a few days before he died.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42567 August 23, 2013 377 Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements. 377 Quote Not a bad idea. There have been flow studies, a number related to Vancouver Lake (Snow cited several) but nothing specific to Tina Bar that I could ever find. Maybe I was just too lazy... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #42568 August 23, 2013 Robert 99 wrote Quote 377, If the proposed flight path doesn't satisfy you mentally, it apparently does so emotionally on some level despite your doubts. Can the FBI (or whoever prepared that famous map), TK, Sluggo, and yourself be wrong about the flight path? I doubt if you have yet arrived at the point where you can give an answer to that which you yourself can truly accept. So if you can't find Cooper in the area where he is supposed to be, then he will be in the area where he is not supposed to be. Of course, this requires some mental adjustments. What can I take to make the required mental adjustments Robert? What did you take to write the above?I am OK with the Sluggo flight path and its many subsequent variants and derivatives that differ insignificantly. It's the Tena Bar money that drives me nuts. I can't figure it out. It's an itch I can't scratch. What's your theory about the money find? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42569 August 23, 2013 georger See you at the Lazy-Z Reunion in November. Thats: Lazy Z Mh Park 1004 NE 72ND ST Vancouver WA 98665 in case you get lost. Say hello to Vern and the boys. And WHO would Vern be - would his last name start with a P?Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42570 August 23, 2013 georger This is all pretty funny to me. Larry was flexible. Eng evidently has gone backwards to the orthodox view. Robert99 has done a spectacular analysis (imho) presented some splendid data to consider. I confess I think this is akk pretty funny. A guy named Copernicus is waiting in the wings ... thats what I sense! I admit Im slightly prejudiced in this matter ... Farlung spoiled me with sagas of a newer better way... It's time for Copernicus. As Shakespeare wrote somewhere, our problems are all in our stars. Maybe Copernicus can help us select more favorable stars. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42571 August 23, 2013 georger Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions. I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42572 August 23, 2013 georger ***Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements. 377 Not a bad idea. There have been flow studies, a number related to Vancouver Lake (Snow cited several) but nothing specific to Tina Bar that I could ever find. Maybe I was just too lazy... When Meyer Louie and I visited that area last month, the Flushing Channel between the river and the lake looked like it could use a good mowing and a lot of brush clearing work. I have never seen any water in that channel. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreyCopGC148 0 #42573 August 23, 2013 Robert99*** Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions. I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further. Robert99 in your opinion, based his study, is it your opinion that the money was planted? or not? A simple question, remember its only your opinion and it is not to be attacked. You are entitled to have one without me being mean to you. so, yes it was planted, or no it was not DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42574 August 23, 2013 georger I think R99 would like to see some flow test data! Some 'real' flow test data! Not just stories dropped out of nowhere that made Ckret even blush. I'm sure we both would like to see some real test flow data! Can your Russian probability modeler handle problems with only non-numeric (alphabetical) data? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42575 August 23, 2013 GreyCopGC148****** Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions. I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further. Robert99 in your opinion, based his study, is it your opinion that the money was planted? or not? A simple question, remember its only your opinion and it is not to be attacked. You are entitled to have one without me being mean to you. so, yes it was planted, or no it was not The money was not planted. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1698 1699 1700 1701 1702 1703 1704 1705 1706 1707 1708 Next Page 1703 of 2540 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
georger 197 #42559 August 23, 2013 That is to the path of least resistance. A little more information...... In February of 2008 the PCGS curreny people found 35 additional serial numbers within Ingram bundles. "This process revealed 35 additional full serial numbers that are on the FBI’s 1971 complete list of notes given as ransom, but apparently were not recorded when the notes discovered by Mr. Ingram in 1980 subsequently were inventoried by investigators. We are pleased to provide the FBI with these ‘new’ numbers with the hope that any new evidence may provide useful leads in this case." http://www.coinnews.net/2008/02/27/pcgs-currency-notifies-fbi-of-d-b-cooper-serial-numbers-3953/ A few months later in June of 2008 PCGS says "Ingram found approximately $5,800 of the $200,000 ransom given to the skyjacker" after the 35 additional serial numbers were discovered a few months earlier. http://www.coinnews.net/2008/06/13/db-cooper-notes-make-37k-at-heritages-americana-memorabilia-auction/ So it seems unclear to the PCGS currency people if Ingram found exactly $5,800 dollars.Quote ... and there is no way to know where the 3 bills TK examined fit into the Ingram bundles... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreyCopGC148 0 #42560 August 23, 2013 CCharger***Just posted video 5 Ridgefield Wildlife Refuge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzzGN9DXw5s&feature=youtu.be I will be returning to the Silverstar area and continue to the top tomorrow -GC148 Your video has a rather large error. You claim that the search area was south of LaCenter by Ridgefield. It was well north and east of there near Ariel. Also, all this cloak and dagger stuff is annoying. What's your theory? Lay it out.[/quote This was to keep locals from compromising the crime scene or stealing the money and burying the body. The FBI has held back 4 facts in the case that would only be known if you knew the truth. Apparently I knew all four and things they didn't know. This is why they met with me that day. I rode my motorcycle 170 miles to meet with Curtis Eng from FBI. I was only the second person he has been willing to meet with. You can call me any time,360 975 9601 I have nothing to hide or conceal. I will go anywhere you would like and film. You will slowly see every body start to copy me and say the money was planted. When you look back before 6 12 2013 no one will say that the money was planted.... but now after 6 13 2013 they will all say it was planted. Look back at the geologist video, he's floating money up on Washougal, but now will start saying it was planted. There are certain people that have known this all along, but are lying to you. Now people have confessed to me and they know when and where. Call me, there is absolutely nothing about this case I do no know. Isn't that right Brian? you never found that money. I will take a polygraph test, will you? Curtis Eng has stated to me that you have wasted at least 1 million dollars of man hours.. DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42561 August 23, 2013 Robert99***QuoteDISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory. 377 JT also told me a few years ago that one of the chase aircraft had a visual sighting of the airliner as it crossed the Columbia River far, far on the east side of Portland. Unfortunately, the chase pilots apparently don't remember that. All available information is that the chase pilots (the T-33 and the F-106s), plus Himmelsbach in his helicopter, headed for the southwest side of Portland. Even the so-called FBI flight path map (source actually unknown), gives a flight path on the west side of Portland for the airliner. On the WW theory, in my personal opinion, Tom Kaye has made a conclusive case for the WW theory being completely wrong. Robert99Quote Neither do any of the controllers remember it that way. JT says 305 crossed at near or over the Troutdale airport. Nobody remembers that happening. Nobody can confirm any of the specifics that would be required for a WW or a Troutdale route. And still, JT maintains this version. But JT is unable to provide anything that would substantiate his story. It's 'his' story and 'his' story' alone so far. JT says this all comes from Himmelsbach. We have been at this for years and there is literally nothing to substantiate anything JT is saying (H is saying). I agree from the info I have about the area the T33's were routed to, by R2. We discussed and shared info about this before - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42562 August 23, 2013 377 Quote DISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory. 377 Quote He broke this 'after' Tom's tests ... to kind of tweek everyone. Is it true? Who knows. It's irrelevant if there is no demonstration or documentation of a previous experiment. Things at T-Bar comes from somewhere (and everywhere?). I have asked until blue in the face where 'the bulk of things found on Tina Bar' come from ... and nobody could cite a specific (even general) source. Myt guess is Amazon who lived at Catapillar Island would say things on Tina Bar 'come from everywhere!'... and as far as I know she would be right. That leaves open the possibility that 'yes' things from the Washougal could (and maybe do) wind up on Tina Bar ... sometimes? So far as I know the USG or anyone else has ever run basic flow tests, to see where debris is coming from or going? If they have I would love to see the data. And I have a very specific reason for wanting to see such data. Such data could be fed into a probability model. And I have a Russian probability modeler here who would love to run a few computer simulations. I asked him if he would be willing at the outset of the formation of the science team and he was willing back then - and he's still here slaving away ... I think R99 would like to see some flow test data! Some 'real' flow test data! Not just stories dropped out of nowhere that made Ckret even blush. We've been down this road with JT before and it's always a dead end. Nuff said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #42563 August 23, 2013 Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42564 August 23, 2013 Robert99 *** Two or three bands per bundle ... which will make R99 happy (pivot-torque-force-direction.. fanning theory)! [ Okay. Georger here are the facts again as shown in Tom Kaye's money analysis which is available on his web page. The money in Tom Kaye's illustration was clearly constrained only on one end when found. It may have had two or more rubber bands on it when delivered to Cooper but all the bands either moved to one end of the bundle or else the other bands disappeared and only one band on one end of the bundle was holding it together when it was finally covered by sand. Assuming that the Georger Hypothesis (that the bills were found flat side down) is correct, then the "fanning" of the bills took place while the bottom of the bundle was constrained by the sand and the top of the bundle was exposed to moving water. The "fanning" and removal of portions of the top bills in the bundle would require some time, perhaps two or three weeks. When the bundle was completely covered by sand, the "fanning" would stop. Then quite a bit of time passes, the Ingrams decide to dig a fire pit, and the rest is history. Other things being equal, and they probably aren't, the end of the bundle with the rubber band still reasonably intact would be restrained by the sand first. Then the lighter end, with the bills free to move both vertically and horizontally, would incur the most water damage. The water action that caused the "fanning" was counter-clockwise (as viewed from above) with respect to the rubber band end of the bundle. If the bundle was moving downstream in the Columbia when it lodged in the sand (see the disclaimer at the bottom of this post), then the bundle would be oriented with the rubber band end pointing toward the river, generally speaking, and the loose end pointing toward the shore. If the bundle was moving towards or into the Columbia from the shore when it lodged in the sand, then the rubber band end would be pointed upstream, general speaking again, and the loose end pointed downstream. In this case, the "fanning" action would require water moving into the river from the shore. DISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Quote Ok. well... I didn't realise I had a flat-side-down hypothesis but my visualisation of the Ingram find is a stack (wad) of cash flat side down because Patricia (and others) have said when the sand was bushed away, at one point they could see remnants of rubber bands across the face of the bills still in the ground. This to me indicates flat side down. Brian described it to me this way: Brian moved aside and his father got down and dug a bit and pulled the first wad of cash up, then dug deeper and pulled a second wad up, and dug further and wider and pulled a smaller third wad up. They dug deeper and wider, then further out and around the find, but didn't find anything more. Galen Cook's witnesses who claim they found bills earlier in the same area but further downstream from the Ingram find, claim their parts of bills were basically on the surface to be recognisable as money, flat side up, and several bills in a recession one witnesses describes as a 'hole'. (I hope I have Galen's account correct ... if I dont he will email me and correct what Im saying). The one thing the Ingrams and others have remarked about, is that the bills were more-or-less cemented together (as a kind of block) and required pulling or soaking apart, after the fact. Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Maybe in response to some force like pressure from water being applied from a particular direction. If the money bag impacted the earth one would expect evidence of shock. Maybe the torquing you cite is evidence of impact. I do know Tom examined his bills for evidence of extreme shock and I dont think he found anything of an obvious nature, that I recall. But, it is tempting to look for force-direction to try and identify a direction from which the Ingram money came. You are not the first person to raise this issue. Two agents raised this issue with Palmer following Palmer's report, because Palmer was assuming the money had arrived by flow, and he had made a comment about the edges of the bills being worn perhaps due to 'the bundles rolling down the river on the bottom of the river'... one agent questioned that rather strenously. Let me leave this here ... because I am sure this dscussion is not over. (I need to go out and check on a few things and stretch my legs). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42565 August 23, 2013 377QuoteDISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory. 377 Claimed, but NEVER proven! One can say what they wish to make a point, but that does not mean it is fact or proven. I know of few who would have the creditials to make a statement like that based on the science and backed up by the science. ICopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42566 August 23, 2013 Quote Robert99 stated; JT also told me a few years ago that one of the chase aircraft had a visual sighting of the airliner as it crossed the Columbia River far, far on the east side of Portland. Unfortunately, the chase pilots apparently don't remember that. Well, what can I say - I have been saying East for 17 yrs. I didn't know until I went to WA for the 2ed and 3rd time (2001 and then confirmed it in 2010)....yet,this thread and "others" concluded the flight was West of Portland and I have argued for yrs it was NOT. I still say the airplane was on East side of Portland as it crossed the river. All I had was my memory and the things a man showed me and told me. A man who said "I'm Dan Cooper" only a few days before he died.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42567 August 23, 2013 377 Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements. 377 Quote Not a bad idea. There have been flow studies, a number related to Vancouver Lake (Snow cited several) but nothing specific to Tina Bar that I could ever find. Maybe I was just too lazy... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #42568 August 23, 2013 Robert 99 wrote Quote 377, If the proposed flight path doesn't satisfy you mentally, it apparently does so emotionally on some level despite your doubts. Can the FBI (or whoever prepared that famous map), TK, Sluggo, and yourself be wrong about the flight path? I doubt if you have yet arrived at the point where you can give an answer to that which you yourself can truly accept. So if you can't find Cooper in the area where he is supposed to be, then he will be in the area where he is not supposed to be. Of course, this requires some mental adjustments. What can I take to make the required mental adjustments Robert? What did you take to write the above?I am OK with the Sluggo flight path and its many subsequent variants and derivatives that differ insignificantly. It's the Tena Bar money that drives me nuts. I can't figure it out. It's an itch I can't scratch. What's your theory about the money find? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42569 August 23, 2013 georger See you at the Lazy-Z Reunion in November. Thats: Lazy Z Mh Park 1004 NE 72ND ST Vancouver WA 98665 in case you get lost. Say hello to Vern and the boys. And WHO would Vern be - would his last name start with a P?Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42570 August 23, 2013 georger This is all pretty funny to me. Larry was flexible. Eng evidently has gone backwards to the orthodox view. Robert99 has done a spectacular analysis (imho) presented some splendid data to consider. I confess I think this is akk pretty funny. A guy named Copernicus is waiting in the wings ... thats what I sense! I admit Im slightly prejudiced in this matter ... Farlung spoiled me with sagas of a newer better way... It's time for Copernicus. As Shakespeare wrote somewhere, our problems are all in our stars. Maybe Copernicus can help us select more favorable stars. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42571 August 23, 2013 georger Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions. I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42572 August 23, 2013 georger ***Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements. 377 Not a bad idea. There have been flow studies, a number related to Vancouver Lake (Snow cited several) but nothing specific to Tina Bar that I could ever find. Maybe I was just too lazy... When Meyer Louie and I visited that area last month, the Flushing Channel between the river and the lake looked like it could use a good mowing and a lot of brush clearing work. I have never seen any water in that channel. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreyCopGC148 0 #42573 August 23, 2013 Robert99*** Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions. I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further. Robert99 in your opinion, based his study, is it your opinion that the money was planted? or not? A simple question, remember its only your opinion and it is not to be attacked. You are entitled to have one without me being mean to you. so, yes it was planted, or no it was not DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42574 August 23, 2013 georger I think R99 would like to see some flow test data! Some 'real' flow test data! Not just stories dropped out of nowhere that made Ckret even blush. I'm sure we both would like to see some real test flow data! Can your Russian probability modeler handle problems with only non-numeric (alphabetical) data? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42575 August 23, 2013 GreyCopGC148****** Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions. I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further. Robert99 in your opinion, based his study, is it your opinion that the money was planted? or not? A simple question, remember its only your opinion and it is not to be attacked. You are entitled to have one without me being mean to you. so, yes it was planted, or no it was not The money was not planted. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1698 1699 1700 1701 1702 1703 1704 1705 1706 1707 1708 Next Page 1703 of 2540 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
GreyCopGC148 0 #42560 August 23, 2013 CCharger***Just posted video 5 Ridgefield Wildlife Refuge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzzGN9DXw5s&feature=youtu.be I will be returning to the Silverstar area and continue to the top tomorrow -GC148 Your video has a rather large error. You claim that the search area was south of LaCenter by Ridgefield. It was well north and east of there near Ariel. Also, all this cloak and dagger stuff is annoying. What's your theory? Lay it out.[/quote This was to keep locals from compromising the crime scene or stealing the money and burying the body. The FBI has held back 4 facts in the case that would only be known if you knew the truth. Apparently I knew all four and things they didn't know. This is why they met with me that day. I rode my motorcycle 170 miles to meet with Curtis Eng from FBI. I was only the second person he has been willing to meet with. You can call me any time,360 975 9601 I have nothing to hide or conceal. I will go anywhere you would like and film. You will slowly see every body start to copy me and say the money was planted. When you look back before 6 12 2013 no one will say that the money was planted.... but now after 6 13 2013 they will all say it was planted. Look back at the geologist video, he's floating money up on Washougal, but now will start saying it was planted. There are certain people that have known this all along, but are lying to you. Now people have confessed to me and they know when and where. Call me, there is absolutely nothing about this case I do no know. Isn't that right Brian? you never found that money. I will take a polygraph test, will you? Curtis Eng has stated to me that you have wasted at least 1 million dollars of man hours.. DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42561 August 23, 2013 Robert99***QuoteDISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory. 377 JT also told me a few years ago that one of the chase aircraft had a visual sighting of the airliner as it crossed the Columbia River far, far on the east side of Portland. Unfortunately, the chase pilots apparently don't remember that. All available information is that the chase pilots (the T-33 and the F-106s), plus Himmelsbach in his helicopter, headed for the southwest side of Portland. Even the so-called FBI flight path map (source actually unknown), gives a flight path on the west side of Portland for the airliner. On the WW theory, in my personal opinion, Tom Kaye has made a conclusive case for the WW theory being completely wrong. Robert99Quote Neither do any of the controllers remember it that way. JT says 305 crossed at near or over the Troutdale airport. Nobody remembers that happening. Nobody can confirm any of the specifics that would be required for a WW or a Troutdale route. And still, JT maintains this version. But JT is unable to provide anything that would substantiate his story. It's 'his' story and 'his' story' alone so far. JT says this all comes from Himmelsbach. We have been at this for years and there is literally nothing to substantiate anything JT is saying (H is saying). I agree from the info I have about the area the T33's were routed to, by R2. We discussed and shared info about this before - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42562 August 23, 2013 377 Quote DISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory. 377 Quote He broke this 'after' Tom's tests ... to kind of tweek everyone. Is it true? Who knows. It's irrelevant if there is no demonstration or documentation of a previous experiment. Things at T-Bar comes from somewhere (and everywhere?). I have asked until blue in the face where 'the bulk of things found on Tina Bar' come from ... and nobody could cite a specific (even general) source. Myt guess is Amazon who lived at Catapillar Island would say things on Tina Bar 'come from everywhere!'... and as far as I know she would be right. That leaves open the possibility that 'yes' things from the Washougal could (and maybe do) wind up on Tina Bar ... sometimes? So far as I know the USG or anyone else has ever run basic flow tests, to see where debris is coming from or going? If they have I would love to see the data. And I have a very specific reason for wanting to see such data. Such data could be fed into a probability model. And I have a Russian probability modeler here who would love to run a few computer simulations. I asked him if he would be willing at the outset of the formation of the science team and he was willing back then - and he's still here slaving away ... I think R99 would like to see some flow test data! Some 'real' flow test data! Not just stories dropped out of nowhere that made Ckret even blush. We've been down this road with JT before and it's always a dead end. Nuff said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #42563 August 23, 2013 Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42564 August 23, 2013 Robert99 *** Two or three bands per bundle ... which will make R99 happy (pivot-torque-force-direction.. fanning theory)! [ Okay. Georger here are the facts again as shown in Tom Kaye's money analysis which is available on his web page. The money in Tom Kaye's illustration was clearly constrained only on one end when found. It may have had two or more rubber bands on it when delivered to Cooper but all the bands either moved to one end of the bundle or else the other bands disappeared and only one band on one end of the bundle was holding it together when it was finally covered by sand. Assuming that the Georger Hypothesis (that the bills were found flat side down) is correct, then the "fanning" of the bills took place while the bottom of the bundle was constrained by the sand and the top of the bundle was exposed to moving water. The "fanning" and removal of portions of the top bills in the bundle would require some time, perhaps two or three weeks. When the bundle was completely covered by sand, the "fanning" would stop. Then quite a bit of time passes, the Ingrams decide to dig a fire pit, and the rest is history. Other things being equal, and they probably aren't, the end of the bundle with the rubber band still reasonably intact would be restrained by the sand first. Then the lighter end, with the bills free to move both vertically and horizontally, would incur the most water damage. The water action that caused the "fanning" was counter-clockwise (as viewed from above) with respect to the rubber band end of the bundle. If the bundle was moving downstream in the Columbia when it lodged in the sand (see the disclaimer at the bottom of this post), then the bundle would be oriented with the rubber band end pointing toward the river, generally speaking, and the loose end pointing toward the shore. If the bundle was moving towards or into the Columbia from the shore when it lodged in the sand, then the rubber band end would be pointed upstream, general speaking again, and the loose end pointed downstream. In this case, the "fanning" action would require water moving into the river from the shore. DISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Quote Ok. well... I didn't realise I had a flat-side-down hypothesis but my visualisation of the Ingram find is a stack (wad) of cash flat side down because Patricia (and others) have said when the sand was bushed away, at one point they could see remnants of rubber bands across the face of the bills still in the ground. This to me indicates flat side down. Brian described it to me this way: Brian moved aside and his father got down and dug a bit and pulled the first wad of cash up, then dug deeper and pulled a second wad up, and dug further and wider and pulled a smaller third wad up. They dug deeper and wider, then further out and around the find, but didn't find anything more. Galen Cook's witnesses who claim they found bills earlier in the same area but further downstream from the Ingram find, claim their parts of bills were basically on the surface to be recognisable as money, flat side up, and several bills in a recession one witnesses describes as a 'hole'. (I hope I have Galen's account correct ... if I dont he will email me and correct what Im saying). The one thing the Ingrams and others have remarked about, is that the bills were more-or-less cemented together (as a kind of block) and required pulling or soaking apart, after the fact. Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Maybe in response to some force like pressure from water being applied from a particular direction. If the money bag impacted the earth one would expect evidence of shock. Maybe the torquing you cite is evidence of impact. I do know Tom examined his bills for evidence of extreme shock and I dont think he found anything of an obvious nature, that I recall. But, it is tempting to look for force-direction to try and identify a direction from which the Ingram money came. You are not the first person to raise this issue. Two agents raised this issue with Palmer following Palmer's report, because Palmer was assuming the money had arrived by flow, and he had made a comment about the edges of the bills being worn perhaps due to 'the bundles rolling down the river on the bottom of the river'... one agent questioned that rather strenously. Let me leave this here ... because I am sure this dscussion is not over. (I need to go out and check on a few things and stretch my legs). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42565 August 23, 2013 377QuoteDISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory. 377 Claimed, but NEVER proven! One can say what they wish to make a point, but that does not mean it is fact or proven. I know of few who would have the creditials to make a statement like that based on the science and backed up by the science. ICopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42566 August 23, 2013 Quote Robert99 stated; JT also told me a few years ago that one of the chase aircraft had a visual sighting of the airliner as it crossed the Columbia River far, far on the east side of Portland. Unfortunately, the chase pilots apparently don't remember that. Well, what can I say - I have been saying East for 17 yrs. I didn't know until I went to WA for the 2ed and 3rd time (2001 and then confirmed it in 2010)....yet,this thread and "others" concluded the flight was West of Portland and I have argued for yrs it was NOT. I still say the airplane was on East side of Portland as it crossed the river. All I had was my memory and the things a man showed me and told me. A man who said "I'm Dan Cooper" only a few days before he died.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #42567 August 23, 2013 377 Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements. 377 Quote Not a bad idea. There have been flow studies, a number related to Vancouver Lake (Snow cited several) but nothing specific to Tina Bar that I could ever find. Maybe I was just too lazy... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #42568 August 23, 2013 Robert 99 wrote Quote 377, If the proposed flight path doesn't satisfy you mentally, it apparently does so emotionally on some level despite your doubts. Can the FBI (or whoever prepared that famous map), TK, Sluggo, and yourself be wrong about the flight path? I doubt if you have yet arrived at the point where you can give an answer to that which you yourself can truly accept. So if you can't find Cooper in the area where he is supposed to be, then he will be in the area where he is not supposed to be. Of course, this requires some mental adjustments. What can I take to make the required mental adjustments Robert? What did you take to write the above?I am OK with the Sluggo flight path and its many subsequent variants and derivatives that differ insignificantly. It's the Tena Bar money that drives me nuts. I can't figure it out. It's an itch I can't scratch. What's your theory about the money find? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42569 August 23, 2013 georger See you at the Lazy-Z Reunion in November. Thats: Lazy Z Mh Park 1004 NE 72ND ST Vancouver WA 98665 in case you get lost. Say hello to Vern and the boys. And WHO would Vern be - would his last name start with a P?Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42570 August 23, 2013 georger This is all pretty funny to me. Larry was flexible. Eng evidently has gone backwards to the orthodox view. Robert99 has done a spectacular analysis (imho) presented some splendid data to consider. I confess I think this is akk pretty funny. A guy named Copernicus is waiting in the wings ... thats what I sense! I admit Im slightly prejudiced in this matter ... Farlung spoiled me with sagas of a newer better way... It's time for Copernicus. As Shakespeare wrote somewhere, our problems are all in our stars. Maybe Copernicus can help us select more favorable stars. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42571 August 23, 2013 georger Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions. I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42572 August 23, 2013 georger ***Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements. 377 Not a bad idea. There have been flow studies, a number related to Vancouver Lake (Snow cited several) but nothing specific to Tina Bar that I could ever find. Maybe I was just too lazy... When Meyer Louie and I visited that area last month, the Flushing Channel between the river and the lake looked like it could use a good mowing and a lot of brush clearing work. I have never seen any water in that channel. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreyCopGC148 0 #42573 August 23, 2013 Robert99*** Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions. I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further. Robert99 in your opinion, based his study, is it your opinion that the money was planted? or not? A simple question, remember its only your opinion and it is not to be attacked. You are entitled to have one without me being mean to you. so, yes it was planted, or no it was not DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42574 August 23, 2013 georger I think R99 would like to see some flow test data! Some 'real' flow test data! Not just stories dropped out of nowhere that made Ckret even blush. I'm sure we both would like to see some real test flow data! Can your Russian probability modeler handle problems with only non-numeric (alphabetical) data? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42575 August 23, 2013 GreyCopGC148****** Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions. I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further. Robert99 in your opinion, based his study, is it your opinion that the money was planted? or not? A simple question, remember its only your opinion and it is not to be attacked. You are entitled to have one without me being mean to you. so, yes it was planted, or no it was not The money was not planted. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1698 1699 1700 1701 1702 1703 1704 1705 1706 1707 1708 Next Page 1703 of 2540 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47
georger 197 #42562 August 23, 2013 377 Quote DISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory. 377 Quote He broke this 'after' Tom's tests ... to kind of tweek everyone. Is it true? Who knows. It's irrelevant if there is no demonstration or documentation of a previous experiment. Things at T-Bar comes from somewhere (and everywhere?). I have asked until blue in the face where 'the bulk of things found on Tina Bar' come from ... and nobody could cite a specific (even general) source. Myt guess is Amazon who lived at Catapillar Island would say things on Tina Bar 'come from everywhere!'... and as far as I know she would be right. That leaves open the possibility that 'yes' things from the Washougal could (and maybe do) wind up on Tina Bar ... sometimes? So far as I know the USG or anyone else has ever run basic flow tests, to see where debris is coming from or going? If they have I would love to see the data. And I have a very specific reason for wanting to see such data. Such data could be fed into a probability model. And I have a Russian probability modeler here who would love to run a few computer simulations. I asked him if he would be willing at the outset of the formation of the science team and he was willing back then - and he's still here slaving away ... I think R99 would like to see some flow test data! Some 'real' flow test data! Not just stories dropped out of nowhere that made Ckret even blush. We've been down this road with JT before and it's always a dead end. Nuff said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #42563 August 23, 2013 Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42564 August 23, 2013 Robert99 *** Two or three bands per bundle ... which will make R99 happy (pivot-torque-force-direction.. fanning theory)! [ Okay. Georger here are the facts again as shown in Tom Kaye's money analysis which is available on his web page. The money in Tom Kaye's illustration was clearly constrained only on one end when found. It may have had two or more rubber bands on it when delivered to Cooper but all the bands either moved to one end of the bundle or else the other bands disappeared and only one band on one end of the bundle was holding it together when it was finally covered by sand. Assuming that the Georger Hypothesis (that the bills were found flat side down) is correct, then the "fanning" of the bills took place while the bottom of the bundle was constrained by the sand and the top of the bundle was exposed to moving water. The "fanning" and removal of portions of the top bills in the bundle would require some time, perhaps two or three weeks. When the bundle was completely covered by sand, the "fanning" would stop. Then quite a bit of time passes, the Ingrams decide to dig a fire pit, and the rest is history. Other things being equal, and they probably aren't, the end of the bundle with the rubber band still reasonably intact would be restrained by the sand first. Then the lighter end, with the bills free to move both vertically and horizontally, would incur the most water damage. The water action that caused the "fanning" was counter-clockwise (as viewed from above) with respect to the rubber band end of the bundle. If the bundle was moving downstream in the Columbia when it lodged in the sand (see the disclaimer at the bottom of this post), then the bundle would be oriented with the rubber band end pointing toward the river, generally speaking, and the loose end pointing toward the shore. If the bundle was moving towards or into the Columbia from the shore when it lodged in the sand, then the rubber band end would be pointed upstream, general speaking again, and the loose end pointed downstream. In this case, the "fanning" action would require water moving into the river from the shore. DISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Quote Ok. well... I didn't realise I had a flat-side-down hypothesis but my visualisation of the Ingram find is a stack (wad) of cash flat side down because Patricia (and others) have said when the sand was bushed away, at one point they could see remnants of rubber bands across the face of the bills still in the ground. This to me indicates flat side down. Brian described it to me this way: Brian moved aside and his father got down and dug a bit and pulled the first wad of cash up, then dug deeper and pulled a second wad up, and dug further and wider and pulled a smaller third wad up. They dug deeper and wider, then further out and around the find, but didn't find anything more. Galen Cook's witnesses who claim they found bills earlier in the same area but further downstream from the Ingram find, claim their parts of bills were basically on the surface to be recognisable as money, flat side up, and several bills in a recession one witnesses describes as a 'hole'. (I hope I have Galen's account correct ... if I dont he will email me and correct what Im saying). The one thing the Ingrams and others have remarked about, is that the bills were more-or-less cemented together (as a kind of block) and required pulling or soaking apart, after the fact. Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Maybe in response to some force like pressure from water being applied from a particular direction. If the money bag impacted the earth one would expect evidence of shock. Maybe the torquing you cite is evidence of impact. I do know Tom examined his bills for evidence of extreme shock and I dont think he found anything of an obvious nature, that I recall. But, it is tempting to look for force-direction to try and identify a direction from which the Ingram money came. You are not the first person to raise this issue. Two agents raised this issue with Palmer following Palmer's report, because Palmer was assuming the money had arrived by flow, and he had made a comment about the edges of the bills being worn perhaps due to 'the bundles rolling down the river on the bottom of the river'... one agent questioned that rather strenously. Let me leave this here ... because I am sure this dscussion is not over. (I need to go out and check on a few things and stretch my legs). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42565 August 23, 2013 377QuoteDISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY! Robert99 Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory. 377 Claimed, but NEVER proven! One can say what they wish to make a point, but that does not mean it is fact or proven. I know of few who would have the creditials to make a statement like that based on the science and backed up by the science. ICopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42566 August 23, 2013 Quote Robert99 stated; JT also told me a few years ago that one of the chase aircraft had a visual sighting of the airliner as it crossed the Columbia River far, far on the east side of Portland. Unfortunately, the chase pilots apparently don't remember that. Well, what can I say - I have been saying East for 17 yrs. I didn't know until I went to WA for the 2ed and 3rd time (2001 and then confirmed it in 2010)....yet,this thread and "others" concluded the flight was West of Portland and I have argued for yrs it was NOT. I still say the airplane was on East side of Portland as it crossed the river. All I had was my memory and the things a man showed me and told me. A man who said "I'm Dan Cooper" only a few days before he died.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #42567 August 23, 2013 377 Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements. 377 Quote Not a bad idea. There have been flow studies, a number related to Vancouver Lake (Snow cited several) but nothing specific to Tina Bar that I could ever find. Maybe I was just too lazy... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #42568 August 23, 2013 Robert 99 wrote Quote 377, If the proposed flight path doesn't satisfy you mentally, it apparently does so emotionally on some level despite your doubts. Can the FBI (or whoever prepared that famous map), TK, Sluggo, and yourself be wrong about the flight path? I doubt if you have yet arrived at the point where you can give an answer to that which you yourself can truly accept. So if you can't find Cooper in the area where he is supposed to be, then he will be in the area where he is not supposed to be. Of course, this requires some mental adjustments. What can I take to make the required mental adjustments Robert? What did you take to write the above?I am OK with the Sluggo flight path and its many subsequent variants and derivatives that differ insignificantly. It's the Tena Bar money that drives me nuts. I can't figure it out. It's an itch I can't scratch. What's your theory about the money find? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42569 August 23, 2013 georger See you at the Lazy-Z Reunion in November. Thats: Lazy Z Mh Park 1004 NE 72ND ST Vancouver WA 98665 in case you get lost. Say hello to Vern and the boys. And WHO would Vern be - would his last name start with a P?Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42570 August 23, 2013 georger This is all pretty funny to me. Larry was flexible. Eng evidently has gone backwards to the orthodox view. Robert99 has done a spectacular analysis (imho) presented some splendid data to consider. I confess I think this is akk pretty funny. A guy named Copernicus is waiting in the wings ... thats what I sense! I admit Im slightly prejudiced in this matter ... Farlung spoiled me with sagas of a newer better way... It's time for Copernicus. As Shakespeare wrote somewhere, our problems are all in our stars. Maybe Copernicus can help us select more favorable stars. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42571 August 23, 2013 georger Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions. I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42572 August 23, 2013 georger ***Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements. 377 Not a bad idea. There have been flow studies, a number related to Vancouver Lake (Snow cited several) but nothing specific to Tina Bar that I could ever find. Maybe I was just too lazy... When Meyer Louie and I visited that area last month, the Flushing Channel between the river and the lake looked like it could use a good mowing and a lot of brush clearing work. I have never seen any water in that channel. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreyCopGC148 0 #42573 August 23, 2013 Robert99*** Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions. I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further. Robert99 in your opinion, based his study, is it your opinion that the money was planted? or not? A simple question, remember its only your opinion and it is not to be attacked. You are entitled to have one without me being mean to you. so, yes it was planted, or no it was not DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film Written by Paul Geivett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42574 August 23, 2013 georger I think R99 would like to see some flow test data! Some 'real' flow test data! Not just stories dropped out of nowhere that made Ckret even blush. I'm sure we both would like to see some real test flow data! Can your Russian probability modeler handle problems with only non-numeric (alphabetical) data? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42575 August 23, 2013 GreyCopGC148****** Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground? Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions. I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further. Robert99 in your opinion, based his study, is it your opinion that the money was planted? or not? A simple question, remember its only your opinion and it is not to be attacked. You are entitled to have one without me being mean to you. so, yes it was planted, or no it was not The money was not planted. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
