DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

According to Himmelsbach..

Hundreds of thousands of copies of the bill list were distributed..

I wonder if any original lists still exist..

[olemisscub 466]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

According to Himmelsbach..

Hundreds of thousands of copies of the bill list were distributed..

I wonder if any original lists still exist..

 

Yes. Found this one in Himmelsbach's papers. 

[FLYJACK 654]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Yes. Found this one in Himmelsbach's papers. 

Same as in the files...  very nice collector item if you can find one.

The list is re-ordered alphanumerically so it would be very quick to look up serial numbers.

I was surprised that there were hundreds of thousands distributed..

Edited September 30, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

10 hours ago, Slim King said:

Virtually NO ONE checked the lists. They were not paid to do so. They aren't government employees. The banks didn't waste their funds on this nonsense. Hoover knew that too. The FBI  waited two years before anyone else got the list...No one paid them either. I have a copy of the list ... Who else here does? The key words are "Spare minutes"... Right... LOL

How do you consistently post lies and not be embarrassed.. do you work for CNN..

The list was distributed.. Dec 1 1971 (dated)

Edited September 30, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Could this be a rubber band fragment...

top bill L09781412A 1969

now missing..

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Could this be a rubber band fragment...

top bill L09781412A 1969

now missing..

Where on the bill are you referring to? I’m not seeing anything standing out. 

[FLYJACK 654]

9 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Where on the bill are you referring to? I’m not seeing anything standing out. 

On the top image. The serial might not be the top bill with the possible rubber band, it is the number on the right side but the top of the packet doesn't look fully intact.

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

On the top image. The serial might not be the top bill with the possible rubber band, it is the number on the right side but the top of the packet doesn't look fully intact.

gamma increased plus unsharp mark in Photoshop. ............... guess a bmp wont post here!  oh well ... will try a png ?

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by georger

[c99acer 6]

On 9/29/2023 at 6:24 PM, FLYJACK said:

So, you have to prove the Air Force, Sage radar, Chase pilots, FBI, Boeing, ATC, NWA, the transcripts, the military searches and the crew are all in on a big conspiracy.  

The Reca narrative is a lie. 

The real question is why do you and the Reca crew still push this lie?

If all the groups you list were part of determining the path of Flight 305, then they should have done a better job. Even the posters here can't seem to agree on what the sketch shows or who created it. Why haven't we seen evidence of the raw radar data? Why don't we see the original data that made this zig-zag flight so definitive?  If ATC "cleared" the traffic to Reno for the crew of 305 to fly as they see fit, then why are there redactions in the radio transcripts claiming it was just other aircraft communications? Why was another commercial craft piloted by Captain Bohan flying into Portland just after 305 passed above - weren't there supposed to be no other craft on this path? 

At least Reca had a witness for his flight path and answered other questions about the hijacking. Maybe that is why some people trust his story more than the FBI records.

[FLYJACK 654]

32 minutes ago, c99acer said:

If all the groups you list were part of determining the path of Flight 305, then they should have done a better job. Even the posters here can't seem to agree on what the sketch shows or who created it. Why haven't we seen evidence of the raw radar data? Why don't we see the original data that made this zig-zag flight so definitive?  If ATC "cleared" the traffic to Reno for the crew of 305 to fly as they see fit, then why are there redactions in the radio transcripts claiming it was just other aircraft communications? Why was another commercial craft piloted by Captain Bohan flying into Portland just after 305 passed above - weren't there supposed to be no other craft on this path? 

At least Reca had a witness for his flight path and answered other questions about the hijacking. Maybe that is why some people trust his story more than the FBI records.

They all corroborated a Southern flightpath. None East. So, they all have to be in on a big conspiracy.. not after the fact but real time.

There was no dispute about the flightpath. We know who created the map and the raw data isn't available because it is Sage stuff that needs to be converted to Lat/Long.

Reca had no witness for a flightpath. NONE. The Cowboy can't prove it was Reca he met in Cle Elum and can't prove how the person he met got there. He met some guy that he claimed looked like Reca.

Reca is a made up story... Laurin coached Reca for the tapes but got so many things wrong it is a joke..

Remember Reca wanted to jump out the side door and didn't even know there was a rear airstair... Reca wanted to jump out the rear side door right into the engine.. that is because Laurin didn't realize that when he read the demands he screwed up,,  Cooper asked for the rear door to be open and he meant the bulkhead door to the airstairs.. not the side door. That is why Reca got it wrong, Laurin misunderstood and gave him the wrong info. 

The Reca narrative has so many errors in it,, anybody who even entertains it as even possible does not have a grasp on the evidence in this case.

Reca being Cooper is 100% BS.

Edited October 1, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

8 hours ago, Slim King said:

Every day you can witness the Seattle to Reno planes flying EAST over the pass and then south near CLE ELUM!!!!! EVERY DAY!!!!! There is absolutely no reason to take any other flight path. The pass is only a bit over 3,000 feet. About 7,000 feet of clearance. No sane person would fly that plane over the most densely populated areas of Washington and Oregon for no reason. The FBI Psychologist said Cooper was going to blow up the plane. There is no hard evidence to prove the flight path .. THAT is why they are still arguing about it today. NO PROOF.

Making claims about what is possible isn't evidence. That is a weak trick to manipulate people who don't know the evidence. 

Reca is unique as a Cooper suspect because the evidence proves he was not Cooper. Most suspects even the bad ones don't provide proof to eliminate. Reca is so bad his own narrative proves he wasn't Cooper.

The route to Reno is South and the route taken by Norjak was South.. that is corroborated by many many sources.. There is no evidence the plane went East.. Cowboy Jeff is not a witness for the plane going East. 

If Cowboy Jeff did see Reca in Cle Elum as he claims that proves he was not Cooper.

And claiming the route today is to fly East to Reno is both irrelevant and false.. they still go South.

Every jet I have tracked goes South, just like this one.

 

The Reca narrative is so bad that it has to be a scam, nobody can actually believe it. It is a big grift..

Edited October 1, 2023 by FLYJACK

[c99acer 6]

On 9/29/2023 at 9:24 PM, FLYJACK said:

Wrong on two points.

Norjak did not go East... there is no evidence. It went South to Red Bluff..

and

Flights do not go East...   which is irrelevant to NORJAK.

SEA to RNO not East.

Flyjack, Can you show flights that were below 12,000 feet on this map? 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, c99acer said:

Flyjack, Can you show flights that were below 12,000 feet on this map? 

It shows all flights.. I have never seen one go East to Reno.

Slim claimed the current route is East, everyday, it isn't. He is making it up, this is the Reca narrative, made up. Repeat the lies over and over and ignore the evidence is the strategy. Claiming the current route is East is both a red herring and false... Slim knows this, it is an intellectually dishonest trick to influence people... even if planes went East today that means nothing for the NORJAK path. Notice Slim makes lots of claims but never has proof..  NORJAK went down V-23 to Red Bluff then over to Reno.. there is no dispute outside of Reca grifters. 

The Reca crowd can't refute the actual evidence so they make up an alternate reality and keep pushing it with no proof. 

There is ZERO evidence the plane went East,, none and vast corroboration in real time is that it went South.

We know that if the plane went South Reca was NOT Cooper and the entire Reca narrative implodes. So, the Reca crowd will never accept the evidence. They will never accept anything that rejects or undermines their claim.

When the Reca narrative first came out and Cle Elum was the LZ that proved to everyone who knew the actual evidence that Reca was not Cooper.. there was no need to look any further at Reca or read any books on him, he was eliminated.

Reca is a lie, a grift...  they are only interested in pushing a narrative not the truth. They get so many facts wrong that it is really a joke now. The problem was Laurin was a poor researcher and made too many factual errors coaching Reca and constructing the narrative. If he were better it would have been more difficult to dismiss this hoax.

It still amazes me that people have no self awareness and aren't embarrassed about lying..

That is the world today.. sad.

I am not posting this for you or Slim, but when new people search for Reca they will find this and avoid getting played by these grifters.

Walter Reca Peca was NOT DB Cooper, it is a hoax.

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

11 hours ago, Slim King said:

There is no hard evidence to prove the flight path .. THAT is why they are still arguing about it today. NO PROOF.

No one is arguing about the flight path except people working backwards with an agenda.

I’m with Flyjack…what I’m writing isn’t for you but for future researchers. 

1) The Air Force provided the entire flight path from Seattle to Reno within a day of the hijacking. When an aircraft was squawking “3500” (hijacking), then our national radar defense system (SAGE) automatically recorded that particular aircraft location on a hard drive. The aircraft was pinged every five seconds during this procedure. This was the most sophisticated radar and computer ever devised to that point. It cost more than the Manhattan Project to produce.

2) We have the testimony of all 3 members of the flight crew. They flew down Victor-23 airway. They noted that Cooper jumped as they were approaching Portland.

3) We have the testimony of the Air Traffic Controller, Cliff Ammerman, who was at the Auburn Station and directed 305 from Seattle to Portland. He has said numerous times that Flight 305 never left the confines of Victor-23. He has also said that he distinctly remembers the southwest turn it made at the Battle Ground VORTEC. We also have the testimony of the Air Traffic Controller in Portland Tower who said that 305 was about 1 mile east of the centerline of V-23.

Every bit of this data has to be wrong and all of these witnesses have to by lying for an alternate flight path to be a reality. 

[Robert99 37]

10 hours ago, olemisscub said:

No one is arguing about the flight path except people working backwards with an agenda.

I’m with Flyjack…what I’m writing isn’t for you but for future researchers. 

1) The Air Force provided the entire flight path from Seattle to Reno within a day of the hijacking. When an aircraft was squawking “3500” (hijacking), then our national radar defense system (SAGE) automatically recorded that particular aircraft location on a hard drive. The aircraft was pinged every five seconds during this procedure. This was the most sophisticated radar and computer ever devised to that point. It cost more than the Manhattan Project to produce.

2) We have the testimony of all 3 members of the flight crew. They flew down Victor-23 airway. They noted that Cooper jumped as they were approaching Portland.

3) We have the testimony of the Air Traffic Controller, Cliff Ammerman, who was at the Auburn Station and directed 305 from Seattle to Portland. He has said numerous times that Flight 305 never left the confines of Victor-23. He has also said that he distinctly remembers the southwest turn it made at the Battle Ground VORTEC. We also have the testimony of the Air Traffic Controller in Portland Tower who said that 305 was about 1 mile east of the centerline of V-23.

Every bit of this data has to be wrong and all of these witnesses have to by lying for an alternate flight path to be a reality. 

Okay, Olemiss let's make sure the future researchers get the correct information.  Using your numbers:

1.  The airliner was squawking 3100 for the entire time of the hijacking.  That means from Portland to Seattle and then to Reno.  The hijack code in 1971 was neither 3100 nor 3500.  An air traffic control radar typical made six rotations per minute which means the airliner's transponder was pinged ever 10 seconds per radar.  There is no public documentation that SAGE was ever involved in tracking the airliner.

2.  Correct.

3.  Georger told me back about 2010 that he had information from one of the crew members of Himmelsbach's helicopter that they always stayed on the west side of Portland and flew up to Woodland and then returned.  [NOTE:  Georger will deny this.]  Himmelsbach lived on the southwest side of Portland.   And in view of the bad weather that night, he had to be very close to his neighborhood.  The T-33 stayed on the west side of Portland.  Persons at an airport on the east side of Portland said, according to Georger and which he will probably deny, that the airliner did not pass on the east side of Portland.

Addendum for Olemiss.  Why does the FBI refuse to release the Seattle ATC radio transcripts?  Why has Soderlind's flight path calculations, made from the FDR information and presumably discussions with the flight crew, not been released?  Do these actions suggest that the so-called FBI flight path is incorrect?  Is the FBI just doing a CYA action on the flight path?

   

[FLYJACK 654]

10 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Okay, Olemiss let's make sure the future researchers get the correct information.  Using your numbers:

1.  The airliner was squawking 3100 for the entire time of the hijacking.  That means from Portland to Seattle and then to Reno.  The hijack code in 1971 was neither 3100 nor 3500.  An air traffic control radar typical made six rotations per minute which means the airliner's transponder was pinged ever 10 seconds per radar.  There is no public documentation that SAGE was ever involved in tracking the airliner.

2.  Correct.

3.  Georger told me back about 2010 that he had information from one of the crew members of Himmelsbach's helicopter that they always stayed on the west side of Portland and flew up to Woodland and then returned.  [NOTE:  Georger will deny this.]  Himmelsbach lived on the southwest side of Portland.   And in view of the bad weather that night, he had to be very close to his neighborhood.  The T-33 stayed on the west side of Portland.  Persons at an airport on the east side of Portland said, according to Georger and which he will probably deny, that the airliner did not pass on the east side of Portland.

Addendum for Olemiss.  Why does the FBI refuse to release the Seattle ATC radio transcripts?  Why has Soderlind's flight path calculations, made from the FDR information and presumably discussions with the flight crew, not been released?  Do these actions suggest that the so-called FBI flight path is incorrect?  Is the FBI just doing a CYA action on the flight path?

   

Robert,, First, you still haven't provided the wind data you claim proves a W wind,,,  because it doesn't exist..

of course SAGE was used..

 

 

 

 

[SeventyWonderful 18]

The microfilm request is currently being processed and should be here within the next two weeks or so.

The recent discussion about the activities on the ground the night Cooper jumped was extremely thought provoking.  He may have been more prepared for whatever conditions he might have encountered than what we would otherwise assume.

For instance, the brown, ankle-length, not-the-tie-type shoes he wore were what they used to call demi-boots.  These are from the 1969 Penney's Fall/Winter catalog.  They're on the lower right side of the page, next to the guys playing hockey.  (Page 322, number 6).

The official description is found on the next page.  

Number 6.  Warmly lined buckled boots. Comfortable strap-and-buckle boots.  Handsome grained leather uppers.  Soft, warm pile linings.  Cushion-crepe rubber outsoles and heels.  Goodyear welt construction.  Sturdy steel shanks.  Shipping weight.  3.50 lbs. $13.88

They're kind of pricey, but seem to be well made.  Classy enough to wear to wear on the plane yet rugged enough to trek across exurban Vancouver on a rainy night after the jump.

What's also interesting about these particular shoes is that the Goodyear welt construction means that they could be resoled if you think that the corrugated boot print at the Heisson store came from Cooper.

Then there's the suit.  It *could be* brown suiting material with thin black stripes was not as common as one might expect.  This jacket is from the early to mid 60s.  It's made by Haspel as part of their Sir Perior line of drip-dry suits and sports jackets.  It's not the same one as Cooper wore because the lapel is different, but the material may be the same, or very similar. If Cooper's suit really was drip-dry, it would make it that much easier to wash if he needed to clean up in a hurry and on the go.

 

[olemisscub 466]

13 hours ago, Robert99 said:

 

Why does the FBI refuse to release the Seattle ATC radio transcripts?

They've not refused anything. Your rejections are due to the extremely precise requirements for FOIA requests. You have to file multiple FOIA's on a topic until you get the precise language of your request right. You quoted a few pages back from one of the rejections from the FBI. That's a boilerplate rejection due to imprecise language. I'm currently in a back and forth with them right now about getting the NWA transcripts that they have. It's a process. 

 Why has Soderlind's flight path calculations, made from the FDR information and presumably discussions with the flight crew, not been released?

There is no indication that the FBI ever possessed that specific information. What we have is the document where Soderlind explains HOW and WHY he came to his drop zone conclusions. We've all seen that. Soderlind's calculations are probably in his file somewhere in an attic of his grandkids home or something like that.  

Is the FBI just doing a CYA action on the flight path?

If you think the FBI gives enough of a flying turd about this case to be actively covering something up, then I've got a bridge to sell you. 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, SeventyWonderful said:

The microfilm request is currently being processed and should be here within the next two weeks or so.

The recent discussion about the activities on the ground the night Cooper jumped was extremely thought provoking.  He may have been more prepared for whatever conditions he might have encountered than what we would otherwise assume.

For instance, the brown, ankle-length, not-the-tie-type shoes he wore were what they used to call demi-boots.  These are from the 1969 Penney's Fall/Winter catalog.  They're on the lower right side of the page, next to the guys playing hockey.  (Page 322, number 6).

The official description is found on the next page.  

Number 6.  Warmly lined buckled boots. Comfortable strap-and-buckle boots.  Handsome grained leather uppers.  Soft, warm pile linings.  Cushion-crepe rubber outsoles and heels.  Goodyear welt construction.  Sturdy steel shanks.  Shipping weight.  3.50 lbs. $13.88

They're kind of pricey, but seem to be well made.  Classy enough to wear to wear on the plane yet rugged enough to trek across exurban Vancouver on a rainy night after the jump.

What's also interesting about these particular shoes is that the Goodyear welt construction means that they could be resoled if you think that the corrugated boot print at the Heisson store came from Cooper.

Then there's the suit.  It *could be* brown suiting material with thin black stripes was not as common as one might expect.  This jacket is from the early to mid 60s.  It's made by Haspel as part of their Sir Perior line of drip-dry suits and sports jackets.  It's not the same one as Cooper wore because the lapel is different, but the material may be the same, or very similar. If Cooper's suit really was drip-dry, it would make it that much easier to wash if he needed to clean up in a hurry and on the go.

 

Nice find on the shoes and the suit. I feel pretty good about his suit being brown. If Tina remembered it well enough to remember that it had a stripe on it, then she's likely correct. Most people who describe him as wearing a black suit are just commenting on his black topcoat, presumably. Or perhaps the lighting inside the plane made the dark brown look black. Either way, I'm good with what Tina says about it's coloring. 

Thank you for filing the request on that paper!

[olemisscub 466]

From latest Vault. Could this be a shard piece? Looks pretty clean though. Perhaps something someone found in Vancouver and turned in?

 

[olemisscub 466]

Info and photo of the 1979 decal find

 

[FLYJACK 654]

On 3/25/2020 at 5:47 AM, FLYJACK said:

The description was slipons, no laces, but they might not have been, some have really high laces and look like slipons, there was also a low ankle boot with no laces.

Those soles were called commando soles... they began in the 1940's.

Many different shoes had them or copied them.. I had a pair of Doc Martins in the 1980's that had the commando soles but looked like dress shoes..

There were many like this.. a low ankle boot, no laces and commando sole. Would look like a slipon...

If Cooper was jumping an ankle boot similar to this makes the most sense. IMO.

 

I found vintage loafers with commando sole..

 

They were called a "commando sole" available on many types of boots and shoes.

[SeventyWonderful 18]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Nice find on the shoes and the suit. I feel pretty good about his suit being brown. If Tina remembered it well enough to remember that it had a stripe on it, then she's likely correct. Most people who describe him as wearing a black suit are just commenting on his black topcoat, presumably. Or perhaps the lighting inside the plane made the dark brown look black. Either way, I'm good with what Tina says about it's coloring. 

Thank you for filing the request on that paper!

Well that's the thing about the suit.  There are extensive regulations concerning textiles (and packaging materials, too).  We're able to research the types of fabric made during, say, the late 1950s until the time of the hijacking.  That includes the colors and patterns for the materials, too.  So far this is the only jacket or part of a suit I have found that's dark brown with a thin black stripe (and I have looked extensively).  Surely there has to be more out there because you'd think that brown suiting material with a thin black stripe would be common enough, but so far nothing else has turned up.  

So perhaps he chose what he wore very carefully with an aim toward blending in at the airport and on the plane, and then with being able to quickly get to safety on the ground.  He was a master of hiding in plain sight. It would be easy to wash the mud off his suit and shoes and be on his way.

The drip dry suiting might even account for his slightly rumpled description from one of the passengers while on the plane. Its purpose was being able to wash and wear especially in hot humid environments in the days before universal air conditioning, like French speaking New Orleans (or Vietnam) par exemple.

It would also be easy to have on thermals under his suit.

Back to the packaging materials.  What was the description of the bag Cooper had with him on the plane?  I remember something about a fabric type material/paper bag?  Cloth woven from fiberglass was a thing.  Perhaps the bag in question was used in commercial shipping or transportation as opposed to it being a shopping bag. 

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

 

All FOIA requests that I have filed were specific enough to be understood by my Congressman and the senior FBI official who was the head of the FBI's Congressional Liaison Office.

There is a long story about how they got involved which is explain in posts elsewhere on this site and Shutter's site.  The results of all that is posted on Shutter's site. 

[SeventyWonderful 18]

33 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

They were called a "commando sole" available on many types of boots and shoes.

I have used up my like reactions for the day, but this definitely gets a like.  (I'll have to do it tomorrow.)

Notice how they all have the Goodyear welt construction, too.