DB Cooper

[BruceSmith 3]

Robert99

***

Quote

"...Law Enforcement people have reportedly stated that Cooper knew just enough about parachuting to get himself killed...."

Robert, what do you think of Earl Cossey's initial assessment that Cooper made it, and in fact anyone with basic parachuting skills could have made a successful jump.

Also, Geoffrey Gray, in his memorial pieces on Coss after his death, says that Coss was going back to his original view after telling the world for 40 years that Cooper cratered.

Additionally, what's your take on the successful landing of all the copy cats who jumped?

1. Robb Heady
2. Richard LaPoint
3. Martin McNally
4. Richard McCoy

If Cooper didn't make it and these guys did, then how come? Why was Cooper different? What made Cooper unsuccessful? After all, McNally didn't even know how to put on a parachute.

Dumb luck? Bad luck? Unforeseen difficulties?

It begs the question: are the LE who say Cooper didn't make it lying, misinformed, spinning the story for an unknown agenda, or establishing their perspective on facts that are not public at this time?

Yes, Larry Carr said repeatedly that Cooper most likely tumbled hopelessly and died as a panicked no-pull. But what did he base that speculation upon? Cossey's assessment from 1972-2012? How come Larry never seemed to include other possibilities, such as those so ably presented by 377 in Portland in 2011?

I get the sense from your posts that your basic position is: if the cops say it's true, then it's true.

Bruce, There are a number of factors that must be considered in accessing the problems that Cooper would have encountered in the jump.

First the weather. The airliner was at 10,000 feet above sea level and also ABOVE an overcast (or an under cast if you prefer). In addition there were reported to be two or three cloud layers below the overcast including at least one that was described as "broken", which is close to being another solid layer. There is no information as to clouds above the airliner which would further complicate the problem.

Cooper could not have seen the ground to provide any information as to his body position during the free fall. That is, he could not stabilize and would have tumbled.

Adding to the tumbling problem is how he tied the money bag to himself. If he tied it on the side of his body, it would have created an asymmetrical type of tumbling which would have been even more difficult to recover from.

The wind chill factor during Cooper's time on the steps and first few seconds of free fall would be around 35 to 40 degrees BELOW zero. Cooper was only lightly dressed, even if he had on thermal underwear, and this low temperature would have definitely impacted him adversely.

Taking all of the above factors together, Cooper would have been thoroughly chilled even before he stepped off the stairs. He would have started tumbling immediately as he went through the very turbulent jet wash behind the airliner, he did not have any means to determine his body attitude to stop the tumbling, and things went downhill both figuratively and literally from that point. It is possible that he was completely disoriented, including inability to accurately estimate time passage, within 10-15 seconds after leaving the stairs.

In all probability, Cooper was on the ground and dead within 40-45 seconds after separating from the stairs.

One of the cable TV networks had a program several years ago on the military's HALO parachute training program in southwest Arizona. The program takes experienced military parachutists and teaches them to do delayed drops.

One particular jump in that program is illustrative of the above. It was a completely clear day, no clouds and plenty of sunshine. The trainees had already made a number of free fall jumps and this was their first one with a military belly pack. The student in question and an instructor jumped together. The student was unable to stabilize himself even with the instructor grabbing him to help him stabilize. The student tumbled so violently that I think the instructor got kicked in the head. Finally, the instructor had to back away from the guy and open his own chute. The student eventually did get a chute open and landed safely. But he was booted out of the program the same day. And remember that this jump was made under ideal conditions by a trained parachutist with free fall experience and assisted by an instructor. He just couldn't handle the change in aerodynamics from the added belly pack.

My conclusion that Cooper died in the jump is based on my own knowledge and experience in several branches of aviation including parachuting.

I think the LE people who agree with this know what they are talking about. There are plenty of LE people with sky-diving experience.

In my opinion, if Cooper had been wearing only a single emergency parachute with no money bag, etc., and with an automatic opener, he would probably have survived. As Farflung repeatedly pointed out, those things do get the job done.

To the best of my knowledge, the other jumpers you mentioned jumped under quite good weather conditions. And some of them had sky-diving experience.

I realize that there are plenty of sky-divers who feel they could have made the Cooper jump successfully using just an umbrella and while carrying a grand piano. Those claims are just beer talk.

Robert99



Yes, Robert, you have restated most of the LE talking points that are used to speculate that Cooper died in his jump.

You do have some factual errors, though. The wind chill factor at the doorway was nil. There was no wind, as many skydivers have pointed out here and elsewhere.

Yes, the blast wall a couple seconds out is severe, as Rob Heady has described. But he survived his tumble, and at night. Yes, he had clear skies, so he had a horizon, but he was over wilderness. Plus, when he jumped his 727 was flying at least 300 mph and might have been going faster (350 mph?), so a severe tumble is not unexpected. Whereas Cooper was going 200 mph.

As I have pointed out numerous times, LaPoint successfully made it to the ground in the snow, in January, in Colorado, wearing nothing more than a shirt and slacks. So, weather conditions per se are not sufficient in my view, to say that Cooper didn't make it.

As for asymmetrical loads, that is a more complex factor to assess. 377 says he has jumped with a comparable load of radios on his leg as Cooper, but it was a tricky affair.

McNally certainly had a wildly asymmetrical load as he was carrying a money bag and a machine gun in a trombone case. He lost both on the way down, but he was okay. Yes, his jump was in the warmer temps of summer.

You say Cooper tumbled. Why do you say that? You don't think Cooper pulled on the stairs? Why not?

[Amazon 7]

Robert99 how many night jumps do you have???

Jet wash???

Night???

Cold weather???

Tumbling ????

WERE ALL GONNA DIE..


Maybe his body is in the old ship at the north end of Caterpillar Island.















Oh wait... I'm still alive..... ALIVE>>>>> get your metal detector ready for lots of walking in the sand.

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

"...One of the cable TV networks had a program several years ago on the military's HALO parachute training program in southwest Arizona. The program takes experienced military parachutists and teaches them to do delayed drops.

One particular jump in that program is illustrative of the above. It was a completely clear day, no clouds and plenty of sunshine. The trainees had already made a number of free fall jumps and this was their first one with a military belly pack. The student in question and an instructor jumped together. The student was unable to stabilize himself even with the instructor grabbing him to help him stabilize. The student tumbled so violently that I think the instructor got kicked in the head. Finally, the instructor had to back away from the guy and open his own chute. The student eventually did get a chute open and landed safely. But he was booted out of the program the same day. And remember that this jump was made under ideal conditions by a trained parachutist with free fall experience and assisted by an instructor. He just couldn't handle the change in aerodynamics from the added belly pack..."

I agree, Robert, that this incident is very illustrative of the dynamics of jumping with an asymmetrical load.

But I wonder if there are other factors involved. Fear? Panic? etc.

Don't most combat paratroopers jump with varying degrees of asymmetry? Weapons, radios, food, ammunition?

How do you access a total newbie who has never parachuted before jumping with a trombone case - and making it successfully to the ground, such as McNally?

I think there is more to assess here, and this issue seems to be greatly affected by "cultural goggles" as Sluggo puts it - if you want Cooper alive, he made it like all the others. If you want him dead, he was a no-pull because of inexperience, cold, panic, etc, and everybody else is dismissed as luckier, smarter, warmer, more experienced, etc.

[Robert99 37]

Blevins writes:

No one has discovered a scrap of anything Cooper-related except for what adds up to approximately three bundles of the cash, miles from where the airliner actually was when it passed by that area.

R99 replies:

So Blevins is now an expert on the airliner's flight path even when the FBI won't touch that subject, some maps of unknown validity to the contrary. Blevins you really do need to get a dictionary and look up the term "circular reasoning".

Blevins writes:

Second, other hijackers made it to the ground, and at least one of them jumped from even higher than Cooper did, and was carrying more than twice the amount of cash (McCoy).

R99 replies:

Is this suppose to be a serious statement? Perhaps you are unaware that some differences in weather impacted the Cooper jump.

Blevins writes:

There is a third possibility. Maybe he just pulled right off the stairs, and as 377 points out, let the chute 'squib' out until it inflated and pull him off the stairs. I favor this idea heavily for two reasons. First, because Rataczak said the stairs will only open 24-36 inches in flight, ("That's just the natural point where they will fall...") and I venture that this situation might make it impossible for Cooper to just go forward down the stairs.

R99 replies:

Blevins, if you would read your own statement above, you should be able to comprehend that Rataczak was saying that the stairs would only open about 2 to 3 feet under their own weight. With Cooper on the stairs, they would go down further. Surely you are aware that the FBI conducted tests with parachutists walking down the stairs, and facing rearward, until they reached the bottom step while standing upright.

Blevins writes:

He would have to back down the stairs. Maybe when he reached the bottom and saw the conditions, he just pulled the ripcord right there. He would have been on the ground in minutes. Then there is the problem of the non-working reserve. Although it was never found, it's been pointed out that it couldn't be attached anyway. Best guess is Cooper tossed it or tied it to himself somehow for his own reasons. In any case, if Cooper only had the one working chute, you have to ask if he would really try a freefall without a working reserve.

R99 replies:

The above is pure bullshit! Do you have any idea of what you are saying? In any event, free falls from high altitude with a single emergency parachute are an every day occurrence.

Blevins writes:

Winds may have been higher at 10K feet for chill, but the skyjacker would have passed into warmer air reletively quickly. We're talking of an altitude equal to that of Camp Muir on Mount Rainier, not the edge of space.

R99 replies:

Do you understand what "wind chill factor" actually means?

Blevins writes:

Most of your theory depends on Cooper deciding to freefall, instead of taking the safer route of basically doing a modified version of a static line jump. With the load he had going, I actually favor that he simply pulled the ripcord while standing near the end of the stairs.

R99 replies:

Blevins, Nobody has claimed that "Cooper decided to freefall"! And you are making claims that you are not qualified to make.

Cooper, parachute, and money bag would weigh about 225 pounds and the airliner was traveling about 225 MPH (those 225s are just coincidental). The canopy in his parachute was not the C-9 that 377 highly recommends. Instead, it was a Navy 26 foot conical canopy and it is very unlikely that it could have survived an opening (no "squibs" here) at 225 MPH with that load.

Consequently, Cooper would probably have been on the ground in no more than 90 seconds, but he would probably be descending feet first (a plus), if he followed your recommendations. Unfortunately, his ankle bones would be connected to his neck bones and he would be very dead.

Blevins, This was really a silly post from you. There is no other way to put it.

Robert99

[Robert99 37]

Amazon

Robert99 how many night jumps do you have???

Jet wash???

Night???

Cold weather???

Tumbling ????

WERE ALL GONNA DIE..

Maybe his body is in the old ship at the north end of Caterpillar Island.

Oh wait... I'm still alive..... ALIVE>>>>> get your metal detector ready for lots of walking in the sand.

Amazon, You DID answer one of the questions I asked yesterday. But first, let me answer yours.

How many night jumps do I have? NONE. And there is a reason for this. In my younger days I had to take sanity tests to participate in some endeavors and I ALWAYS passed them. What is your excuse?

[FULL DISCLOSURE: They were not actually "sanity" tests, but rather tests to determine if I had "realistic expectations" about what I was getting myself into.]

So you have made night jumps and survived? I do have a metal detector and I have been known to walk in the sand quite a bit.

And so there was actually a sunken ship at the north end of Caterpillar Island at some point? Now would you answer the other questions?

Robert99

[Robert99 37]

Bruce Smith writes:

You do have some factual errors, though. The wind chill factor at the doorway was nil. There was no wind, as many skydivers have pointed out here and elsewhere.

. . . . .

You don't think Cooper pulled on the stairs?

R99 replies:

Bruce, it is agreed that the wind chill factor at the pressure hull door in the airliner cabin is zero. Indeed, there is no wind there. But I was talking about the wind chill factor at the foot of the stairs when the airliner is doing 225 MPH.

If Cooper pulled on the stairs while doing 225 MPH and with about a 225 pound load, there is no reason to expect a happy outcome. Even today, it is unusual to see a standard military emergency parachute rated for 225 MPH openings with a lot lower loads.

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

Robert99

Law Enforcement people have reportedly stated that Cooper knew just enough about parachuting to get himself killed.

Duane Weber did not even know that much. Duane's life as a failed career criminal simply did not prepare him for such a giant step up in the criminal world. Sorry.

Robert99

No need to be Sorry as I know the truth, but you do not! Seems like you have stated thing that just do NOT work when the REAL jumper talk about their experiences.

When Duane was in Jefferson - he was encarcerated with pilots, veterans and others with the capability to commit the crime...

WHY do you think 2 FBI agents were assigned out of Missouri to visit the prison to interview an individual? Mr. Himmelsbach was the one who TOLD me about the calls that came out of Jefferson.

Supposedly the FBI LOST the report made by the 2 agents - but, perhaps one of them is still alive & maybe his son has enforced the other stories related to me.

It matches a story Duane himself told me when I asked him about what they did to fill their time in prison...the only encarceration he told me about & that was after his manic episode due to the chemical over load with the malfuncing kidneys in the early part of 1990.

How and WHY does the FBI loose reports like that?

There was a group of guys who sat around having a conversation regarding pulling the BIG ONE...Duane was one who resided there under an alias. Important you remember that bit of info.

One guy who was out of AL was a jumper....but Cooper was some one who if he survived could not be linked to Jefferson - one person out of those five was encarcerated under and alias.

WHY do you think the FBI could not produce & refused to produce Weber's record until yrs later when no one would care.

Jefferson was the one prison Duane told me about - I asked him what they did with their time as I could not invision what it would be like to be locked behind bars....his comment was "They sat around planning the BIG One".

One of the guys in the prison was a writer - a writer I did NOT find until 3 months after he died...
This writer contended that Cooper was in Jefferson...but never identified him. This writer was I believe the first person to mention the comic written in french.

Duane himself told me about another famous person who was encarcerated at Jefferson and his selling foreign comics in the courtyard provided by his foreign girl friend. ALL of this was later validated by James Earl Ray before he died...the attorney could not arrange for me to talk to him because he was in isolation.

That was NONE other than James Earl Ray.

The wife of Duane Weber claimed that the girl friend of James Earl Ray lived with her for a short time, but she couldn't stand the smell of her cooking. (I have never been able to verifiy this part of the story).

One of the imprisoned in this group was out of Opelika, Al. a place Duane spent some TIME in away from his wife and family.

This all transpired within 1970 and 1971....a very dark burgundy pick-up would pick Duane up and these 2 guys would disappear for a couple of days.

Supposedly they were cleaning out attics, but the exwife told me this was when he asked her to buy him a pair of Dixies that buttoned up the front...like a jumpsuit.

The wife claimed the vehicle picking him up was a white van, but the step daughter said it was a burgundy pickup....and her mother was AWARE.

I am only posting this because in the tedious review of the old journals I kept with my planner & notes on calendars - I found that the step daugher and the exwife gave me a slightly different versions of the same story...For some reason I had only told JT about the burgundy pick-up, but MY own notes and logs clarified the story.

I had also mentioned the white van in this thread. Why one who is repeating a story needs to keep notes and be accurate, especially when dealing with multiple individuals regard the same subject!

I will readily admit I didn't catch this myself until I was trying to find the man who relayed the story to me about a man who could have been Vickies father. I was going page by page in my planners.

The step daughter was 15 at the time - and she was the one that told me TWICE - she knew Duane was Cooper. I remember the color of cars from my teens - so I think her accounting was more credible than her mothers...the mother was afraid of the FBI encarcerating her - because of her knowledge after the fact....per what I was told by the exwife herself and the step daughter.

Robt99, it is a good thing you are not FBI or an investigator because you do not have an open mind with it comes to anyone subject.

AGAIN - I SWEAR THAT I HAVE NOT MADE ANY OF THIS UP AND WHAT I RELATE HERE IS THE TRUTH.

ALL of this was in the beginning and I had no agenda other than to know who I was married to.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 37]

Bruce Smith writes:

But I wonder if there are other factors involved. Fear? Panic? etc.

R99 replies:

Fear to one degree or another is relatively normal. Panic is not normal. And you had better not panic when your butt is in a wringer.

Bruce writes:

Don't most combat paratroopers jump with varying degrees of asymmetry? Weapons, radios, food, ammunition?

R99 replies:

The typical paratrooper uses a static line and doesn't free fall. Special Forces and such are something else entirely and reportedly use very advanced equipment with most unusual capabilities and have extensive training in its operation.

Bruce writes:

How do you access a total newbie who has never parachuted before jumping with a trombone case - and making it successfully to the ground, such as McNally?

R99 replies:

You wrote elsewhere that he lost the trombone case during the jump. The rest appears to be luck.

Bruce writes:

I think there is more to assess here, and this issue seems to be greatly affected by "cultural goggles" as Sluggo puts it - if you want Cooper alive, he made it like all the others. If you want him dead, he was a no-pull because of inexperience, cold, panic, etc, and everybody else is dismissed as luckier, smarter, warmer, more experienced, etc.

R99 replies:

Forget the "cultural goggles" and just stick to the facts of the matter.

Robert99

[Amazon 7]

Robert99

***Robert99 how many night jumps do you have???

Jet wash???

Night???

Cold weather???

Tumbling ????

WERE ALL GONNA DIE..

Maybe his body is in the old ship at the north end of Caterpillar Island.

Oh wait... I'm still alive..... ALIVE>>>>> get your metal detector ready for lots of walking in the sand.

Amazon, You DID answer one of the questions I asked yesterday. But first, let me answer yours.

How many night jumps do I have? NONE. And there is a reason for this. In my younger days I had to take sanity tests to participate in some endeavors and I ALWAYS passed them. What is your excuse?

[FULL DISCLOSURE: They were not actually "sanity" tests, but rather tests to determine if I had "realistic expectations" about what I was getting myself into.]

So you have made night jumps and survived? Yes. yes I have... quite few of them actually... I love night jumps. You jump you deploy.. and all is right with the world.. summer... winter...each has its own special beauty I do have a metal detector and I have been known to walk in the sand quite a bit.

And so there was actually a sunken ship at the north end of Caterpillar Island at some point? Its still there. stuff like that will last indefinitely.. under the water although some of its structure exposes at LOW LOW WATER just 20 years ago Now would you answer the other questions? Mabeeeee

Robert99

Also.. your wind chill statements are irrelevant.. 225 MPH with a deploying canopy slows you down to ZIPPO wind chill within seconds. (Pssst you are moving at a few feet per second downward under canopy and drifting with the wind.. peaceful...)

Oh and hate to break it to you but the Navy Conical...... it was designed for the zero zero seats too... AND will also squib.. AND are tough as hell to save pilots lives on ejecting from ugly ole yucky NAVY planes that are no longer capable of flying. and the seats will get them out in all kinds of nasty ass angles of attack.

Canopy... 26' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-RcMEDLu7Y

[skyjack71 0]

Guru312

As the first person to start making money from DB Cooper--within about a week of the hijacking-- I raise my hand.

There is a BIG difference, Robert, between my method of making money from Cooper and yours. You and so many other "authors" are utilizing this thread as a free marketing platform for either your book on Cooper or some other topic.

The constant bickering between you and georger, and others, is offensive.

Why don't you guys man-up and have the balls to stay on topic.

This the DB Cooper thread on DropZone.com not your free podium for self-aggrandizement.

The bickering & useless postings between Blevins (promoting his book) and Georger with his gibberish has gotten WAY out of hand. Waste of time and energy...got in the way of real research!)

I noted I am not seeing any posting by Georger tonight - THANK GOD for short reprieve!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Robert99

Blevins, I didn't say to "scan" the post, I said to "read" it. I guess you need to look up the meaning of the word "read" also.

Robert99

I didn't have the words for this - and it is very irritating for the poster to scan or quote the entire posting they are answering.... Blevins does this for commercial reasons....makes for a very boring read and use of air space to QUOTE the entire posting unless it is short or absolutely necessary do to a lack of connnections...or time.

I do it myself out of defense, but not by choice...because it irritates me that others like Blevins and Georger do it ALL of the time.

Remember I have NOT tried to sell anything on this thread - so tip-toe around the things you mention about me in the same breath with Blevins.

You are wrong in you conclusions about Weber - and the things you personally state about me - so how about being a little less agressive. Sure do NOT want to see you eat CROW - if we ever have the Crow Cook OUT! Better watch out for what they are marinated in.... the FBI and Cook will be served the worse of the worse and told what it is before they have to consume it.

Some of you would not even know you are eating crow!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 37]

Amazon

******Robert99 how many night jumps do you have???

Jet wash???

Night???

Cold weather???

Tumbling ????

WERE ALL GONNA DIE..

Maybe his body is in the old ship at the north end of Caterpillar Island.

Oh wait... I'm still alive..... ALIVE>>>>> get your metal detector ready for lots of walking in the sand.

Amazon, You DID answer one of the questions I asked yesterday. But first, let me answer yours.

How many night jumps do I have? NONE. And there is a reason for this. In my younger days I had to take sanity tests to participate in some endeavors and I ALWAYS passed them. What is your excuse?

[FULL DISCLOSURE: They were not actually "sanity" tests, but rather tests to determine if I had "realistic expectations" about what I was getting myself into.]

So you have made night jumps and survived? Yes. yes I have... quite few of them actually... I love night jumps. You jump you deploy.. and all is right with the world.. summer... winter...each has its own special beauty I do have a metal detector and I have been known to walk in the sand quite a bit.

And so there was actually a sunken ship at the north end of Caterpillar Island at some point? Its still there. stuff like that will last indefinitely.. under the water although some of its structure exposes at LOW LOW WATER just 20 years ago Now would you answer the other questions? Mabeeeee

Robert99

Also.. your wind chill statements are irrelevant.. 225 MPH with a deploying canopy slows you down to ZIPPO wind chill within seconds. (Pssst you are moving at a few feet per second downward under canopy and drifting with the wind.. peaceful...)

Oh and hate to break it to you but the Navy Conical...... it was designed for the zero zero seats too... AND will also squib.. AND are tough as hell to save pilots lives on ejecting from ugly ole yucky NAVY planes that are no longer capable of flying. and the seats will get them out in all kinds of nasty ass angles of attack.

Canopy... 26' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-RcMEDLu7Y

You are assuming an immediate opening by Cooper and I did not. Under the conditions I was addressing, the wind chill factor is relevant.

And you know that I hate to have to tell you this right back, but the Navy conical canopy that was in the 1960 era NB-6 parachutes, such as Cooper used and that I owned, was NOT a zero-zero canopy.

I have some knowledge of zero-zero ejection seats from the days when they were first being developed, long before things got standardized, and various concepts for such seats and parachutes were in very limited use or just being developed.

When they worked as designed, it was a good day. When they didn't, it was a bad day. I have only seen one live ejection using such a seat under zero-zero conditions and it was a bad day.

Robert99

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

"...FBI report says the chute Cooper jumped with was a 28 foot military canopy, not 26. The smaller one was the civilian luxury (FBI's description) which was returned to Norman Hayden..."

Speaking of bad days, this is the third time I have typed this post, as my Google Chrome is hanging up on the Slacker AOL music site. So much for listening to Jake Shimabukuro and the charming sounds of Hawaii as I write about wind chills and trying to bust Robert-Ninety-Nine's cajones, but in a nice way.

Ahem.

Wind Chill:

There are a couple of problems with the prevailing notions from LE and R-99 about how nippy it was on the stairs.

First, many skydivers here, and certainly those who spoke at length in Tacoma last November, clearly indicate that there is minimal wind at the bottom of a 727 staircase because the stairs are blocking the slipstream.

Secondly, Robb Heady reports that he experienced no adverse chilling effects when he jumped at 12,000 feet at 300 mph. He was dressed similarly to Cooper, wearing only a fishing vest and a nylon windbreaker. Yes, it wasn't November in the Cascades, but it was late spring over the Sierras. If he handled 300 mph, why couldn't DB handle 200 mph, or 225 as R99 states.

Lastly, everyone is in agreement that it was raining at 10,000 feet when Danny Boy jumped into the Big Unknown, which raises the Big Question: How can it rain in conditions of wind chill at 40 degrees below zero - that's 72 degrees below freezing.

Yes, I know that Georger isn't here and reports are that he is not coming back, but this is the exact type of physics question that only he seems to be able to answer - how does rain not freeze into ice under those kinds of conditions, and if rain is affected in such a peculiar fashion wouldn't Danny's tootsies and fingertips be secured by the same process?


Chutes:

Bobby, I think it is fair to assume that the FBI doc on parachutes is flawed. Hence, it is most likely that DB Cooper used a 26-foot civilian canopy since Norman Hayden sent two identical ones to Sea-Tac.

I think it is incorrect to think he used an NB-8, NB-6 or a C-9. I am in agreement with Robert-Ninety-Nine on that.

However, what to make of a civilian 26-footer in 1971? Can one get you to the ground safely with an exit in excess of 200 mph?

The answer seems to be a Big Yes. Again, I cite Robb Heady:

Robb says that he made it to the ground with a 26-foot civilian canopy that was his reserve chute fashioned around his waist.

So, if Robb's 26-footer could make it at 300 mph, why not Coop at 200?

As Robert Ninety-Nine has said so eloquently, the classic: stick to the facts.

So Ninety-Nine, which facts do you like? Some seem to be preferable over others, wouldn't you say? I know I definitely prefer mine over yours. You?

[Amazon 7]

Did you even watch the test footage??

Here is some more LISTEN to the dialogue as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y91LGgl-894

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

"...WERE ALL GONNA DIE..."

Miss Amazona, I know this is the prevailing view of most folks, but I'm working (with others) on another angle - immortality through a robust application of focused thought to create a new reality.

I'm writing about it at the Mountain News. It's called The New Physics, and my book is an Introduction to the Science of Consciousness.

Yes, it's a tad controversial, and not only is 377 praying for my soul, but Snowmman has made many posts, generally along the lines that I go back to kolluge and study some of dat real physics stuff.

Now, here's the tie-in to Cooper - Along the way to immortality, we can transcend time and space and revisit Flight 305 on November 24, 1971. Find out what really happened.

I'll bring a thermometer and see exactly how cold it's on the stairs, if you catch my drift.

[skyjack71 0]

What was the reason for the post with nothing there other than quoting a post made by Blevins?

Reading my old notes from 1998...long before I had a computer.
Interesting things I had forgot about.
Himmelsbachs reactions to some news & the FBI asking me for my prints.

4 prints on the resume. My prints are on file with the State of Fla, but I went to the Sheriff Office & gave my prints as they requested.

Lots of offers coming my way at that time ...but I told them all the same thing - I wanted to see what the FBI came up with.

Did NOT remember this until I read it. Duane said he met Oswald in Lousiana. They were in jail - evidently not a crime, but causing a ruckus or getting drunk. I had forgot all about this.

Still searching for the contact info on the man in S. Florida whose neighbor could have been Vickies father. There was more to the story the man told me on the phone - and why I keep thinking it was connected to Vickies father. I believe it was before 2003...other wise I would have information on the computer regarding it....

Found a lot of numbers with that area on the phone bills - but, I doubt he has the same number if he is still even alive...

Lots of strange things happening in Jun of 1998.

The FBI calls me & tells me the prints on the resume - that NONE of them belong to Duane. Even Finegold was perturbed by this...a resume that Duane personally put in the file does NOT have his prints on it...I saw him touch that damn thing & other items I provided.

Shaking my head at the memory.
THIS made no sense then & it makes less sense as I put it in this thread...who the hell's prints do they have on Weber's criminal files.

Yes, Bruce - Finegold & I exchange lots of phone calls & he counciled me regarding things I needed to be careful about. I wonder if Finegold is still alive now...I lost touch with him & didn't want to be imposing on him....but he volunteered to provide council when people started finding me.

Finegold was a very kind man - and I always wanted to meet him - his voice had a unusual quality.

Writers & others were crawling out of the woodwork - yes, I had offers! Maybe I should have snatch one of them up...one was a 50K advance! It was for some kind of production, but I never felt comfortable - I wanted to wait for the FBI & not make a fool out of myself as Ms Marla Cooper would do at a later date.

I have notes about the US Attorneys & Finegold - someone is trying to copy cat the story I told (the date is Jun 17 1998).

Operation Mongoose is being discussed by others for some reason. I didn't even know what it was. The other's being principals within the system of connections. Hell I didn't even know what Operation Mongoose was.

I am being bombarded with all kinds of information - way over my head.

Attempting to obtain maps from a man with the Intelligencier. Provide pictures for maps...NOW when I read that realize had no idea the value of things. But the only map I had was in a small pocket Atlas

Man looking at homes from out of Chicago - made me nervous - he knew who I was....and I had not been incontact with anyone, but the FBI and those connected to the crime...I had also NOT been public. All of you know what happened after I went public and I still bear the scars & pain from the accident & a freaky eye that cannot be fixed - have to tape it open to read a book and sometimes to drive.

A friend found me a good map of WA & sent it to me...Now I know were Stilacoom is ---- can you guys believe this one ----I had NO maps of the state of WA. I needed a map of Clark County but did NOT obtain that for several yrs.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 20]

Bruce wrote

Quote

Now, here's the tie-in to Cooper - Along the way to immortality, we can transcend time and space and revisit Flight 305 on November 24, 1971. Find out what really happened.

If that works Bruce, just find the other twenties. Work out a split with the insurance company and live large. My twenty will decline in value but it would be worth it to see you solve the case and prosper.

Then sail on a few gold laden Galleons that wrecked en route to Spain. Come back to the present and salvage the booty.

If Ramtha were real JZ Knight would be wealthy beyond belief and wouldn't have to rip off gullible followers to finance her excesses.

The squidding deployment deceleration seen in the Thailand 727 jumps would, IMO, work on a C9 or USN 26 ft Conical. It would prevent catastrophic shock loading of the canopy. If Cooper pulled on the stairs at 727 speed with gear down and flaps 15, he didn't tumble and he didn't blow up his ride.

I still have a Navy 26 Conical. It saved my life when I had my first malfunction in the early 70s. I'd be willing to prove my point by rigging it in a backpack and volunteering Snowman or Amazon to jump it from a 727 flying in the Cooper configuration.

Saw a souped up 727 (winglet mods) on the ramp at Minneapolis last week. It was owned by Kallita Charters. They are disappearing fast. No more 727s fly scheduled US passenger routes.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Suddenly Ralph HOPE with the FBI is acting COLD. "Duane's prints not on the documents" -Duh!

This was a RED FLAG at that time.
NO prints & they claimed they had Duane's prints from the prison files...whose prints are on those files. Remember the only prints used by the FBI was the McNeil file with was a questionable file to begin with....NOTE: Ralph Hope would tell me in 2000 that Duane was NEVER in McNeil - until I told him I had the file in my hand. They never told me if the crossed referenced with prints of Duane from the other prisons?

If one recalls the only prints Ckret mentions & seemed to think NO other prints needed other than the McNeil prints - I debated this with him on this thread?

YET, in 2000 Agent HOPE claimed Duane was never in McNeil....How well I remember when that happened - I was HOLDING the damn FILE in my hand as he said that...Then excuses himself and calls me back 3 hours later!

I personally know Duane touched those files and yet NONE of his prints are on them. ????????

I had forgot about this - and NOW this sound highly suspicious! It is June 29th 1998. Get the rest of that yr another night - maybe!

I think the FBI needs to check the prints on ALL of Weber's arrests and see it they match...each other!

Just a thought! The prints still bug me & they will until I see the prints from to different files and taken at different times actually match. Remember if was after this they dropped Duane like a HOT cake....DID they compare with the other encarcerations or just rely on those old prints from McNeil - NOW remember this - they had TOLD ME that Duane was NEVER in MCNEIL. So what is the story about the prints....

Reading back over these old logs really causes a lot of QUESTION to POP & they should cause some of you to PAUSE also...They have them and then they don't have them then they have them. If Weber was never in McNeil then why does he have a FILE and most importantly WHY is the FBI using a file they claim they didn't have.

NONE of this made sense then & it make NO sense now....go read Ckrets posts in this thread & then compare those with the statements of Ralph Hope. Perhaps there was too many changing of the guards and why the case was never solve - or was it inadequate training....???

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Amazon 7]

377

Bruce wrote

Quote

Now, here's the tie-in to Cooper - Along the way to immortality, we can transcend time and space and revisit Flight 305 on November 24, 1971. Find out what really happened.

If that works Bruce, just find the other twenties. Work out a split with the insurance company and live large. My twenty will decline in value but it would be worth it to see you solve the case and prosper.

Then sail on a few gold laden Galleons that wrecked en route to Spain. Come back to the present and salvage the booty.

If Ramtha were real JZ Knight would be wealthy beyond belief and wouldn't have to rip off gullible followers to finance her excesses.

The squidding deployment deceleration seen in the Thailand 727 jumps would, IMO, work on a C9 or USN 26 ft Conical. It would prevent catastrophic shock loading of the canopy. If Cooper pulled on the stairs at 727 speed with gear down and flaps 15, he didn't tumble and he didn't blow up his ride.

I still have a Navy 26 Conical. It saved my life when I had my first malfunction in the early 70s. I'd be willing to prove my point by rigging it in a backpack and volunteering Snowman or Amazon to jump it from a 727 flying in the Cooper configuration.

Saw a souped up 727 (winglet mods) on the ramp at Minneapolis last week. It was owned by Kallita Charters. They are disappearing fast. No more 727s fly scheduled US passenger routes.

377

That was the point I was trying to make that some people REFUSE to listen to... BOTH canopy's have deployed at FAR higher speeds than the 225MPH.. or even 225KNOTS Per HOUR and they do not just blow up

I know of more than a few ejections at double those speeds..... injuries ensued.. but the pilots lived.

[Danielle1010 0]

Today was the first day of school ugh

[Robert99 37]

Amazon

That was the point I was trying to make that some people REFUSE to listen to... BOTH canopy's have deployed at FAR higher speeds than the 225MPH.. or even 225KNOTS Per HOUR and they do not just blow up

I know of more than a few ejections at double those speeds..... injuries ensued.. but the pilots lived.

Amazon, surely you understand that the parachute Cooper used had a standard canopy with no squibbing capabilities whatsoever.

I also know of plenty of ejections at far higher speeds and altitudes (including Mach 3 or so) which were successful.

I presume that you are aware that the FAA lists a "low speed" parachute as being rated only for 150 MPH (Knots?) and a "high speed" parachute as being rated for 160 MPH (Knots?).

Standard military parachutes from the Cooper era (his parachute was probably manufactured in the 1960s or earlier) were seldom rated above 225 MPH.

Back when they were flying F-100s, one of the Thunderbirds (I think it was one of the solo pilots) had a major wing spar failure just as he was pulling up from a low level 600 MPH pass at an airshow along the Texas/Mexico border. He immediately ejected, his canopy was substantially damaged, he suffered some injuries, but he survived and went on to become the USAF Chief of Staff (General Hoerner(?)).

Robert99

[Robert99 37]

Amazon

Did you even watch the test footage??

Here is some more LISTEN to the dialogue as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y91LGgl-894

I have seen a lot more test footage than that, talked to some of the pilots who survived, and gone to the funerals of some who didn't.

[Amazon 7]

Robert99

***
That was the point I was trying to make that some people REFUSE to listen to... BOTH canopy's have deployed at FAR higher speeds than the 225MPH.. or even 225KNOTS Per HOUR and they do not just blow up

I know of more than a few ejections at double those speeds..... injuries ensued.. but the pilots lived.

Amazon, surely you understand that the parachute Cooper used had a standard canopy with no squibbing capabilities whatsoever.

I also know of plenty of ejections at far higher speeds and altitudes (including Mach 3 or so) which were successful.

I presume that you are aware that the FAA lists a "low speed" parachute as being rated only for 150 MPH (Knots?) and a "high speed" parachute as being rated for 160 MPH (Knots?).

Standard military parachutes from the Cooper era (his parachute was probably manufactured in the 1960s or earlier) were seldom rated above 225 MPH.

Back when they were flying F-100s, one of the Thunderbirds (I think it was one of the solo pilots) had a major wing spar failure just as he was pulling up from a low level 600 MPH pass at an airshow along the Texas/Mexico border. He immediately ejected, his canopy was substantially damaged, he suffered some injuries, but he survived and went on to become the USAF Chief of Staff (General Hoerner(?)).

Robert99

I am pretty sure that of the numerous varieties of round canopies I have jumped... and I have many hundreds of round jumps on dozens of types... ALLL of them "squib".. I am sure anyone who has actually sat back and watched their canopy open above them saw the same things I saw... I was fascinated by the process.. and watched it many many times.

As far as speed of deployment... ratings go out the window in jets... and a hell of a lot of guys lived since 1949 I think it was when they started equipping jets with ejection seats that tossed pilots out into air that was moving past them faster than those "rated" speeds.
The parachute manufacturers tended to overbuild military canopies... and MAN am I glad they did.

[skyjack71 0]

Strange day, kept hearing unusual sounds & Himmelsbach had told me to be careful. He knew about the other unusual things that had happened & he told me - I could go to sleep and not wake up the next morning.

Certain individuals I contacted told me NOT to go there (inrelation to the current research) - ominous warnings but not threats.... unusual contacts - this was all during the time I am making phone calls to South Florida and asking questions.

This was all during the MONGOOSE research - which I have now forgotten.
All of the stuff about Kennedy and Cuba and other things.

On July 1998, I am officially notified about the prints by the agent of record (Hope) the prison Records do NOT match the prints on the documents I provided to the FBI in 1997??? Also advised me to use the Freedom of Information.

Useless information: ?The FBI would not provide me with records that showed John C. Collins at Jefferson was actually an alias for Duane L. Weber.

I & others spent a lot of money & time trying to get the Jefferson records in their entirety with intake and out-take mug shots. (NOTE, they were NOT obtained until Shutter did his thing in the early part of 2013 in this forum). Ckret llied in the thread - if he truely was acting out of curiousity to help solve the crime - WHY did HE not make those records avail when he was here?

On that August day in 1998 a man is really pushing me hard for a contract - but, now I am glad I walked on it....it is my belief the parties needed control regarding Cooper. The contract would have tied my right hand behind me.

Ralph H, Parker and my attorney friend in the area - all agreed - it I didn't feel comfortable to walk!

After arriving back home a memory from 1987 about the ticket hits me - I forgot about that - taped under the desk in an envelope in the basement office.

Duane walked in (I had been on the phone making appointments). He seemed agitated at me 7 accused me of snooping ...Evidentlally he had seen me on the floor of the office from a window at the front door.

I had dropped some leads on the floor and when I picked them up I saw the envelope under the back side of the desk. I don't know how much he saw me doing, but the next day - the envelope was GONE...

The envelope was sealed with red squiggly line on the seal. NOW his just hit me - the 20 in the bank that was all folded up had Dan Cooper written in that same red pen....I just remembered that - Oh MY God. I can't prove this because spent that 20 dollar bill in 1995 the yr he died.

Just more of confirmation I needed to know that IF Duane was NOT Cooper he sure as hell knew who was. It is just my word - NO ONE will ever believe me, but I swear by all that is dear to me - what I have told is the truth and I have NOT made any of this shit up.

I had taken a flash light to the back of the envelope and I now know that was the ticket I saw in 1994 the yr before he died...but had I not logged these things - I could NOT have recalled this shit now at this stage of my life....

I am telling things I never told before - but it is time to tell them and per chance I have told them before I tell them one more time and probably for the last time.


I confront Tommy in Al one last time -he gets angry (August 3, 1998)and warns me again to BACK OFF...but I let him know I have found MORE. I told him about all of the other stuff James Brown, Coffelt, Chicago, (Tommy had lived in Chicago), when I got to NEW ORLEANS Tommy is flipping out. - HE then again told me in no uncertain words that Duane knew people in high places.

I then contact a man by the name of Karnet (not sure of the spelling and do NOT remember hims). HE calls me after I leave a message and warns me as he did before that I could get myself accused of a crime or worse killed.

What the fricking hell did I stumble into? Why all of the secreties about Duane records, prints and background?

I know I try to write from the notes but this has past & present thoughts all comingled in to one....just damn me for not remembering all I should have made the connection when I should have....

After this - hard look back into my past and into Weber's past - HE sure as HELL was Cooper or he knew WHO was....I will state that the day I die if I can talk.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 37]

BruceSmith

I'll bring a thermometer and see exactly how cold it's on the stairs, if you catch my drift.

Bruce, You can leave your thermometer at home. The flight crew reported that the Total Air Temperature, as measured on their Mach Meter, was -7 degrees C at 10,000 feet while they were doing 225 MPH.

Correcting that value for aerodynamic compressibility heating, the -7 degrees C becomes -12 degrees C or about +10 degrees F at 10,000 feet. The ground temperature at Portland (30 feet ASL) was in the 40s at that time.

Go online for a formula to calculate wind chill factor, and read the definition of that term while you are at it. The wind chill factor is about 35-40 degrees (both F or C) below zero at that temperature and speed.

Heed the advice 377 and Snowmman have given you on the other matters.

Robert99