377 20 #46801 February 1, 2014 Not a stupid question at all Georger. I've wondered myself. Most likely explanation is to assure sufficient height above terrain for a safe jump. That is something you'd worry about in a night jump or any jump where you can't see enough to get a reliable estimate of your altitude AGL (above ground level). Greco, the central figure in Peterson's book, sweats this very issue in his jump, after tipping the crew with a 20. Cooper knew at least something about 727s. The flight configuration commands strongly suggest that. A lot of people don't know the difference between flaps, elevators and spoilers much less what an appropriate flap setting is or that it is measured in degrees on a particular aircraft. On some planes it's measured in preset fractions such as one quarter, one half, etc. Also he definitely chose the right canopy. But, was it dumb luck or evidence of parachute knowledge? We don't know. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #46802 February 1, 2014 377 Not a stupid question at all Georger. I've wondered myself. Most likely explanation is to assure sufficient height above terrain for a safe jump. That is something you'd worry about in a night jump or any jump where you can't see enough to get a reliable estimate of your altitude AGL (above ground level). Greco, the central figure in Peterson's book, sweats this very issue in his jump, after tipping the crew with a 20. Cooper knew at least something about 727s. The flight configuration commands strongly suggest that. A lot of people don't know the difference between flaps, elevators and spoilers much less what an appropriate flap setting is or that it is measured in degrees on a particular aircraft. On some planes it's measured in preset fractions such as one quarter, one half, etc. Also he definitely chose the right canopy. But, was it dumb luck or evidence of parachute knowledge? We don't know. 377 Your post reminded me of something you guys have forgotten or that U just think JO created. When we lived in CO. Duane and I flew to Atlanta for a wedding. The flight was a 727 and Duane told me about the oxygen and the flaps on the plane and the degrees. This was a February trip because their anniversary is on Valentines day. Remember I knew ZERO about the skyjacking at that time. This was when he was so wary of the stewardess and actually hid himself from her...her hair was a dark dark auburn....I do NOT know what color Florence's hair was - but from the 1971 pics I would say it was Dark Brown. He kept a magzine up in front of him like he was reading it until she closed the curtain to 1st class. When we exited the plane - he was very careful to conceal his face with a piece of luggage or his brief case - I do not remember now. Too long ago, but I wrote about it in this thread when my memory was sharper. When he showed me the wheel on the back was on a trip to the islands in 1987. He did NOT address the flaps on that flight that I remember at this time. That one had a door on the side behind the galley - if I remember correctly. I don't remember seeing that in the pictures of the 727's - did some of them come with two side door - plus the aft way. I NEVER thought of this until this moment. BUT the one going to the islands had a door way front and aft of the wings and the other door to the AFT way as we know it....which was NOT opened. Am I just imaging this? The one going to Denver we entered and exited thru the one forward of the wings. This is NOT a false memory, but it is the first time I remember this and it is puzzling me! The 727 I flew from Pensacola to Atlanta in 2007 - had 2 side doors - that I clearly remember....so I am not misremembering. I couldn't find the pictures of the 727 in the skyjacking - did it have 2 side doors plus the Aft way?Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #46803 February 1, 2014 BruceSmithQuote"...But you don't recall anything about Cooper wanting 10,000 ?..."I'll check my inteview notes with Rataczak. I believe he confirmed the 10K demand from Cooper. Also, Dona Elliott said the plane was lower than 10K when it went over Amboy. She told, Bobby B, me and Meyer it was about 3-4,000 feet when we talked with her in Ariel in 2012. wasn't Cooper's demand that they stay under 10,000? V23 and 10,000 feet is mentioned a lot. then they wonder if more restrictions will be imposed. ground control responds by saying "you fly in the best way you can do her" they seem to have trouble climbing and stop at 7,000. Rataczak claims he went to 30 degree flaps because of the vibrations occurring with the steps down. this causes even more fuel to be wasted. they go back to 15 degree flaps prior to climbing to 10,000. the cloud coverage also seems to be an issue. they report to 305 "if you do get on top, or where the visibility is good, you might advise center about it" my guess would be that it's a crap shoot on what could be seen through gaps in the clouds. the coverage was pretty thick, so it's doubtful about seeing noticeable landmarks. Rataczak claims to have seen Vancouver and Portland, but doesn't say anything else was seen. if you go by the FBI claiming where he jumped, those landmarks are pointless. Cooper jumped already. I think it's a huge gamble trying to look through the clouds for navigation purposes.... added notes: In the transcripts Cooper doesn't say 10,000 (see photo)"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sailshaw 0 #46804 February 1, 2014 377 you say: "Also he definitely chose the right canopy. But, was it dumb luck or evidence of parachute knowledge? We don't know." You are right and he had many years to plan the DB Caper. I think 10,000 ft is a Natural thing to say as it gave him a lot of height without requiring oxygen. He would enjoy the ride for only 5 minutes to the ground anyway and not requiring oxygen makes it simple. DB was a smart skydiver with guts and skills to pull this caper off without a hitch. Bob Sailshaw [email protected] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #46805 February 1, 2014 skyjack71*** This implies locality as well, and some amount of desperation. He wanted out ASAP and was ready to do it. NOTHING Cooper stated implies he was LOCAL. Knowing a place and having worked there in the past does NOT make someone LOCAL. there is really no way to tell one way or the other. Cooper could have done his homework of the area like many criminals do. he could have also tried to jump early to catch them off guard. it's dark outside, Cooper would be aware that it would take time to get a fix on his location. If his original intentions were to jump ASAP. why is everyone connecting dots around the supposed jump location? this would be the oh well jump site? not relevant to the original plan....."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #46806 February 1, 2014 georger I recall all of this, above. But you don't recall anything about Cooper wanting 10,000 ? See the attachment to Shutter's post on this point above. Cooper apparently was the first one to mention 10,000 feet for whatever reason. But his exact statement may not be in any written record now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #46807 February 1, 2014 skyjack71*** Jo, You seem to feel that Duane was involved in every interesting program that you see on cable TV. Why don't you just say you saw it on TV instead of claiming you knew the author of some articles on the same subject. Or is it just a strange coincidence that some of the events you described above were covered on cable TV not to long ago. Are you infringing on the rights of the television people? Robert99 OHHHhhhh! Robert U do NOT know me. . . . . . Eat YOUR words! . . . . . YOU KNOW zero about JO. . . . . . Dumb Blonde Sydrome - I do NOT get jokes. And YOU do NOT know me! You are very close to having to eat YOUR own words in your original post. And this is NO joke! Robert99 Edited to add that the CIA's web page is another excellent source for the information that Jo tried to connect to Duane in her earlier post. R99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #46808 February 1, 2014 Robert99*** I recall all of this, above. But you don't recall anything about Cooper wanting 10,000 ? See the attachment to Shutter's post on this point above. Cooper apparently was the first one to mention 10,000 feet for whatever reason. But his exact statement may not be in any written record now. we also have conflicting statements of Cooper's last known communication. the records claim 8:05 which is just a couple minutes prior to the possible jump area. Ralph Himmelsbach claims the last contact was right after they leveled off at 10,000. this puts the plane several miles north of the Toledo area. then you have something conflicting on the transcripts again. 8:52 they claim 55 minutes was the last contact. If you subtract 55 minutes from 8:52 you back to the area Himmelsbach claims? what does this say about the 8:05 time slot? then you have Rataczak claiming he jumped 10-15 minute past the last communication with Cooper. If you go by that and what Himmelsbach claims. Cooper jumped before Lake Merwin???? I'm wondering what position the stairs were in when the placard got out? how exactly was the placard mounted? I have not been able to find a picture of this area showing where the placard was. the lever is at the top of the stairs on the left (looking to the rear of the plane) I'm going to contact Boeing and see if any answers can be found."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #46809 February 1, 2014 mrshutter45 wasn't Cooper's demand that they stay under 10,000? .... added notes: In the transcripts Cooper doesn't say 10,000 (see photo) So, if Coop says under (or not over) 10,000 and the crew needs to fly as high as they can to minimize fuel consumption and to maximize radio range and radar tracking range, that means go AT 10,000. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #46810 February 1, 2014 Hominid*** wasn't Cooper's demand that they stay under 10,000? .... added notes: In the transcripts Cooper doesn't say 10,000 (see photo) So, if Coop says under (or not over) 10,000 and the crew needs to fly as high as they can to minimize fuel consumption and to maximize radio range and radar tracking range, that means go AT 10,000. even though Cooper made the statement of staying below 10,000. it seems after plotting a best known course that 10,000 would be a good agreed altitude, along with what you mentioned. this would not compromise Cooper's demand? is that safe to say?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #46811 February 1, 2014 mrshutter45even though Cooper made the statement of staying below 10,000. it seems after plotting a best known course that 10,000 would be a good agreed altitude, along with what you mentioned. this would not compromise Cooper's demand? is that safe to say? Yes, if that was truly his demand. The msg in the transcript is someone's best attempt, possibly under time pressure, to record what the person thought he heard the 305 crew say what Coop had specified. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #46812 February 1, 2014 mrshutter45 wasn't Cooper's demand that they stay under 10,000? added notes: In the transcripts Cooper doesn't say 10,000 (see photo) In a 21 Jan 97 Arizona Daily Star article about a presentation by Scott: "Once Cooper got his sack of money, he ordered Scott to fly as low and slowly as possible and drop the back steps." edit: Not a quote of Scott, but of the article. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #46813 February 1, 2014 Hominid*** wasn't Cooper's demand that they stay under 10,000? added notes: In the transcripts Cooper doesn't say 10,000 (see photo) In a 21 Jan 97 Arizona Daily Star article about a presentation by Scott: "Once Cooper got his sack of money, he ordered Scott to fly as low and slowly as possible and drop the back steps." When you think about it that would be a very risky command. The crew would have been happy to drop him over the Pacific Ocean. "As low as possible" taken literally could have them flying at low AGL altitude that would have put Cooper at risk. Much safer to command a specific altitude that you know will give you enough AGL altitude to exit then perhaps freefall and then deploy. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #46814 February 1, 2014 377****** wasn't Cooper's demand that they stay under 10,000? added notes: In the transcripts Cooper doesn't say 10,000 (see photo) In a 21 Jan 97 Arizona Daily Star article about a presentation by Scott: "Once Cooper got his sack of money, he ordered Scott to fly as low and slowly as possible and drop the back steps." When you think about it that would be a very risky command. The crew would have been happy to drop him over the Pacific Ocean. "As low as possible" taken literally could have them flying at low AGL altitude that would have put Cooper at risk. Much safer to command a specific altitude that you know will give you enough AGL altitude to exit then perhaps freefall and then deploy. 377 Eh, he was a bad ass top secret super spy black ops assassin combat veteran microwave emitting radio carrying super criminal MK Ultra tripping Don Juan smoke-jumping wilderness survival expert, he just needed to tie the bag, hold his nose, pull the ripcord (on the last step) splash in, and swim in to history! All the way to Florida. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #46815 February 1, 2014 377When you think about it that would be a very risky command. The crew would have been happy to drop him over the Pacific Ocean. "As low as possible" taken literally could have them flying at low AGL altitude that would have put Cooper at risk. Much safer to command a specific altitude that you know will give you enough AGL altitude to exit then perhaps freefall and then deploy. 377 Yeah, if this were the entirety of his commands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #46816 February 1, 2014 matthewcline ********* wasn't Cooper's demand that they stay under 10,000? added notes: In the transcripts Cooper doesn't say 10,000 (see photo) In a 21 Jan 97 Arizona Daily Star article about a presentation by Scott: "Once Cooper got his sack of money, he ordered Scott to fly as low and slowly as possible and drop the back steps." When you think about it that would be a very risky command. The crew would have been happy to drop him over the Pacific Ocean. "As low as possible" taken literally could have them flying at low AGL altitude that would have put Cooper at risk. Much safer to command a specific altitude that you know will give you enough AGL altitude to exit then perhaps freefall and then deploy. 377 Eh, he was a bad ass top secret super spy black ops assassin combat veteran microwave emitting radio carrying super criminal MK Ultra tripping Don Juan smoke-jumping wilderness survival expert, he just needed to tie the bag, hold his nose, pull the ripcord (on the last step) splash in, and swim in to history! All the way to Florida. Matt Not before he buried it in several locations, came back only to find the money was deteriorated. throws some of it back into the Columbia, and then buried some of it on Tena Bar several months before it's found.....case solved 2/1/2014 "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #46817 February 1, 2014 Hominid*** wasn't Cooper's demand that they stay under 10,000? added notes: In the transcripts Cooper doesn't say 10,000 (see photo) In a 21 Jan 97 Arizona Daily Star article about a presentation by Scott: "Once Cooper got his sack of money, he ordered Scott to fly as low and slowly as possible and drop the back steps." edit: Not a quote of Scott, but of the article. seems to also suggest Cooper thought the pilots would lower the stairs...."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #46818 February 1, 2014 mrshutter45wasn't Cooper's demand that they stay under 10,000? .... added notes: In the transcripts Cooper doesn't say 10,000 (see photo) From a '96 AP article by Michael Taylor: "... Cooper told Rataczak that after the money and parachutes had been delivered, he wanted the pilot to head south from Seattle, depressurize the cabin, fly no higher than 10,000 feet, leave the landing gear down, set flaps at 15 degrees ...." The article also included some quotes of Rataczak, none of which mentioned 10,000. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #46819 February 1, 2014 mrshutter45seems to also suggest Cooper thought the pilots would lower the stairs.... Carr posted here long ago that Coop had thought that the stairs were dropped from the cockpit. Based on Tina statement of what Coop said to her when he was told the plane couldn't take off with the stair down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #46820 February 1, 2014 Hominid***seems to also suggest Cooper thought the pilots would lower the stairs.... Carr posted here long ago that Coop had thought that the stairs were dropped from the cockpit. Based on Tina statement of what Coop said to her when he was told the plane couldn't take off with the stair down. well, that kind of debunks his secret knowledge of the 727 doesn't it? I think a lot of his knowledge could have easily been found outside of working for Boeing. I mentioned before. how do we know Cooper didn't put some of this together watching the stairs drop while in a terminal looking out?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #46821 February 1, 2014 Hominid***wasn't Cooper's demand that they stay under 10,000? .... added notes: In the transcripts Cooper doesn't say 10,000 (see photo) From a '96 AP article by Michael Taylor: "... Cooper told Rataczak that after the money and parachutes had been delivered, he wanted the pilot to head south from Seattle, depressurize the cabin, fly no higher than 10,000 feet, leave the landing gear down, set flaps at 15 degrees ...." The article also included some quotes of Rataczak, none of which mentioned 10,000. George Harrison's notes say basically the same as the AP article. From the tone and in comparison to other entries in the notes, this appears to be transcribing what he is hearing or has heard: 0215 - Mex. Gr dn, flaps 15, inside lites out, No landing in US, No crew aft of first class aisle curtain, aft door open, aft stair lowered in flight. 0327 - "He wants us to stay below 10,000. What about alt routing south then west"but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #46822 February 1, 2014 Quotewell, that kind of debunks his secret knowledge of the 727 doesn't it? I disagree. Doesn't matter what you see on the ground. You need to know stairs can be opened in flight and that the plane can fly safely with them down. It's not obvious. That much in the slipstream with a long moment arm relative to CG might give a pitch down force. Squat switches on the landing gear might disable stair lowering system once aloft. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #46823 February 1, 2014 377Quotewell, that kind of debunks his secret knowledge of the 727 doesn't it? I disagree. Doesn't matter what you see on the ground. You need to know stairs can be opened in flight and that the plane can fly safely with them down. It's not obvious. That much in the slipstream with a long moment arm relative to CG might give a pitch down force. Squat switches on the landing gear might disable stair lowering system once aloft. 377 Hmmm. well it's a good point. we must also keep in mind the 727 was used over sea's. knowledge could have been gained from the point as well. was there any point the pilots had access to the stairs through the cockpit? if not, where did he get that idea? did someone give him false information? I don't think a switch was able to stop the stairs. that's why the Cooper vane was installed...."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #46824 February 1, 2014 Interesting article here: Did you know? In just over a year, Iron Mountain has securely shredded nearly four-million pounds of sensitive materials from Boeing’s regional sites — all in an environmentally responsible way. http://www.ironmountain.com/Knowledge-Center/Reference-Library/View-by-Document-Type/Case-Studies/B/Boeing.aspx another good one... http://www.csoonline.com/article/216615/ex-boeing-worker-accused-of-stealing-documents"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #46825 February 1, 2014 Boeing shred fest confirmed. Amazing how far they will go to conceal Weber's Norjack role. Jo must have spooked them with one of her recent posts. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
