Recommended Posts
Jerry and I disagree as to whether Cooper augered in or landed under a good canopy, but we agrree that the rig is out there somewhere under either scenario.
Why do you disagree Dan?
377
I don't disagree. I also don't care if he stashed it, or carried it out, or what he did with it. The point is that The FBI says there is a body out there (his)because of no pull/couldnt pull/total malfunction, etc. You and me say there aint. 47 out of 53 respondants made a guess that they also thot that in all likelehood, the guy got a chilly night reserve ride under a good canopy. There is scientific validity of collecting data. My poll can not be considered scientific in any way. It is opinions only. But, opinions gathered where the results cannot be tampered with and the sample is large enough do in fact indicate a general trend. No one said anything about hard evidence. I wanted to know from SKYDIVERS (This forum is DZ, for skydivers) what the population would summarize happened. 53 people spoke. A jury is 11. Look folks, hard evidence and actual investigation is gone 38 years ago. Using Skydiver knowledge and experience should to answer an important question in the mystery: Is there a body out there to look for? Yes or No? "No" flies directly in the face of your all knowing US Government. He picked a great rig, it worked, he lived. Thank you.
Why do you disagree Dan?
377
I don't disagree. I also don't care if he stashed it, or carried it out, or what he did with it. The point is that The FBI says there is a body out there (his)because of no pull/couldnt pull/total malfunction, etc. You and me say there aint. 47 out of 53 respondants made a guess that they also thot that in all likelehood, the guy got a chilly night reserve ride under a good canopy. There is scientific validity of collecting data. My poll can not be considered scientific in any way. It is opinions only. But, opinions gathered where the results cannot be tampered with and the sample is large enough do in fact indicate a general trend. No one said anything about hard evidence. I wanted to know from SKYDIVERS (This forum is DZ, for skydivers) what the population would summarize happened. 53 people spoke. A jury is 11. Look folks, hard evidence and actual investigation is gone 38 years ago. Using Skydiver knowledge and experience should to answer an important question in the mystery: Is there a body out there to look for? Yes or No? "No" flies directly in the face of your all knowing US Government. He picked a great rig, it worked, he lived. Thank you.
Orange1 0
QuoteSilver handles kinda skeer those who let the dope rope do their deployments for them... just sayin
My (old) club had a first timer on SL do a perfect (necessary) reserve deployment this past weekend
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Dan: Show your proof he was an experienced Skydiver and knew what he was doing. He certainly was dressed for it. He was prepaired to make that Jump. He knew how to open the airstairs with out help he was realy familiar with its operation and had planed it will enough to know how to perform this simple task."NOT" By the way who is your candidate was he dumb enough not to learn how to lower the stairs. An experienced skydiver that knew what he was doing and chose this aircraft surely would have not had a problem lowering the stairs and would have learned how prior to the hijacking. So who is it.Jerry
Farflung 0
They are so incredibly easy to skew with the best of intentions. Was this poll actually given to ‘skydivers’? Many who read this thread are most certainly not in that category.
How many of Marla’s over 500 friends are skydivers? What would their predisposition be towards Cooper’s survivability if they believe Marla who said her uncle, who survived, did the crime?
I think there is a wee bit of filtration regarding juries as well, but I’m not a law expert and do everything in my power to avoid any contact with the institution. Lawyers and judges know how much jury duty sucks so they wrote some laws excluding their participation in an institution they are sworn to honor. Just one experience in the jury pool and they may well review that cruel and unusual punishment thing. Oh well, c’est la vie.
How many of Marla’s over 500 friends are skydivers? What would their predisposition be towards Cooper’s survivability if they believe Marla who said her uncle, who survived, did the crime?
I think there is a wee bit of filtration regarding juries as well, but I’m not a law expert and do everything in my power to avoid any contact with the institution. Lawyers and judges know how much jury duty sucks so they wrote some laws excluding their participation in an institution they are sworn to honor. Just one experience in the jury pool and they may well review that cruel and unusual punishment thing. Oh well, c’est la vie.
377 21
Lawyers can serve on juries, they just get bounced most of the time by one side or the other during voir dire (jury selection process).
Lawyers with bogus cases bounce scientists and engineers too. They are too hard to fool.
You only get so many peremptory challenges so you might run out and get a few on the jury despite your efforts to exclude them.
377
Lawyers with bogus cases bounce scientists and engineers too. They are too hard to fool.
You only get so many peremptory challenges so you might run out and get a few on the jury despite your efforts to exclude them.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
"How many of Marla’s over 500 friends are skydivers? What would their predisposition be towards Cooper’s survivability if they believe Marla who said her uncle, who survived, did the crime?"
Good point. I wasnt interested in whether her friends thot it was survivable, I was wanting to know if even her friends thought it was likely that a skyjacker would use his own last name. They had a chance to say that they thought that he would, but none did. See Question 3. It indicates that the voters voted honestly what they really thought. No more, no less. The data is not skewed in any of the ten qeustions. If there was anybody want to skew the results, surely Marlas friends woulod have had reason to, but did not. Regardless who "your guy" is - I believe that there is a general concensus that 1) there was a hijacking 2) Whover it was donned a rig 3) he jumped 4) he was able to pull the ripcord sufficiently that a canopy came out 5) he did not auger in, or streamer in. and finally, 6) His last name was not Cooper. No more, no less. The audience is not 5 year olds. The audience is sufficiently aware and interested and knoledgeable to be capable of voting. He picked a great rig, he had a nice ride. The earth was there as he thought it would be. Thank you.
Good point. I wasnt interested in whether her friends thot it was survivable, I was wanting to know if even her friends thought it was likely that a skyjacker would use his own last name. They had a chance to say that they thought that he would, but none did. See Question 3. It indicates that the voters voted honestly what they really thought. No more, no less. The data is not skewed in any of the ten qeustions. If there was anybody want to skew the results, surely Marlas friends woulod have had reason to, but did not. Regardless who "your guy" is - I believe that there is a general concensus that 1) there was a hijacking 2) Whover it was donned a rig 3) he jumped 4) he was able to pull the ripcord sufficiently that a canopy came out 5) he did not auger in, or streamer in. and finally, 6) His last name was not Cooper. No more, no less. The audience is not 5 year olds. The audience is sufficiently aware and interested and knoledgeable to be capable of voting. He picked a great rig, he had a nice ride. The earth was there as he thought it would be. Thank you.
quade 3
QuoteHe picked a great rig, he had a nice ride.
Part one of that sentence is almost certainly wrong according to the evidence. Part two is purely wishful thinking.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
377 21
Dan wrote
Great rig? Yes, Exactly what you and I would choose Dan.
Nice ride? Yes, all the way to earth contact, then it's not so fun C9s give you a nice quiet ride. The descent rate is high though. I never thought of a C9 landing as "nice."
377
QuoteHe picked a great rig, he had a nice ride.
Great rig? Yes, Exactly what you and I would choose Dan.
Nice ride? Yes, all the way to earth contact, then it's not so fun C9s give you a nice quiet ride. The descent rate is high though. I never thought of a C9 landing as "nice."
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Farflung 0
I don’t even know why we have juries in the first place.
The defendant will say it’s all just a big misunderstanding; again. This time he just got back from the dry cleaners that altered his pants too much and they came down while walking passed an elementary school, during recess, in the playground, with a bag of candy and using his cell camera to document dangerous protrusions on the slide.
I’m sure that other people have had more charming experiences but I always arrived home to burn my clothes then take a shower with that brass brush from my charcoal grill in an attempt to remove some of the justice. It doesn’t work but I continue to try. Guess I’m just a romantic at heart.
The defendant will say it’s all just a big misunderstanding; again. This time he just got back from the dry cleaners that altered his pants too much and they came down while walking passed an elementary school, during recess, in the playground, with a bag of candy and using his cell camera to document dangerous protrusions on the slide.
I’m sure that other people have had more charming experiences but I always arrived home to burn my clothes then take a shower with that brass brush from my charcoal grill in an attempt to remove some of the justice. It doesn’t work but I continue to try. Guess I’m just a romantic at heart.
Farflung 0
You will need to do much better than that DangerousDan.
You said you asked the question of ‘skydivers’ knowing full well that was not the case. This could be viewed as misrepresentation and is certainly not the finest example of being transparent.
The honesty of the respondents was never in question. Honesty of the respondents is an odd target to focus on, so many respondents and so few survey takers. Just like those from India who were given a choice of beef or chicken. They were very honest and the results are accurate. The question and the selected participants were woefully skewed and the geometry of the curve would indicate such. The intent of the survey taker is the only thing in question and they will deflect and minimize. Nature of the beast.
I don’t have a ‘guy’ (a book, a movie, video or any Tee shirts) and can be convinced of death or survivability equally well with a linear process free of stupefying leaps of logic or secret information. Additionally, I don’t understand why that would be an issue unless there is a predisposition to favor one answer over another. I guess this case can be solved through some democratic process via force of wills.
If a jury of 12 can convict then a survey of 53 is a lock. Of course it only takes one on a jury to acquit but no need to add that to the mix. Good job though, you will influence the correct target audience.
You said you asked the question of ‘skydivers’ knowing full well that was not the case. This could be viewed as misrepresentation and is certainly not the finest example of being transparent.
The honesty of the respondents was never in question. Honesty of the respondents is an odd target to focus on, so many respondents and so few survey takers. Just like those from India who were given a choice of beef or chicken. They were very honest and the results are accurate. The question and the selected participants were woefully skewed and the geometry of the curve would indicate such. The intent of the survey taker is the only thing in question and they will deflect and minimize. Nature of the beast.
I don’t have a ‘guy’ (a book, a movie, video or any Tee shirts) and can be convinced of death or survivability equally well with a linear process free of stupefying leaps of logic or secret information. Additionally, I don’t understand why that would be an issue unless there is a predisposition to favor one answer over another. I guess this case can be solved through some democratic process via force of wills.
If a jury of 12 can convict then a survey of 53 is a lock. Of course it only takes one on a jury to acquit but no need to add that to the mix. Good job though, you will influence the correct target audience.
He picked a great rig, he had a nice ride.
Great rig? Yes, Exactly what you and I would choose Dan.
Nice ride? Yes, all the way to earth contact,
-------------------------------------------
There you go again reading too much into what I said. I said he picked a great rig. I said he had a nice ride. ROD, type landing not mentioned. Probably stung but he had a nice ride.
Obviously a strong affinity to polls and czecks here, how about we do it the other way? Lets just say that the poll indicated a strong affinity to a scenario where the jumper obtained a good canopy, and was alive for the landing. IF the poll is grossly skewed, there should be dozens willing to comment and state their opinion *(whatever it is) to the contrary.
Therefore: OPINIONS WANTED:
If you have an opinion that leans towards this jumper being a no pull/couldnt pull/total malfunction/streamer'd in (i.e. DEAD ON IMPACT) then please post your opinion as a post so everyone can see your opinion of what your BEST GUESS is. No hard evidence required (there is none), just what do you think? Thank you. Dan
Great rig? Yes, Exactly what you and I would choose Dan.
Nice ride? Yes, all the way to earth contact,
-------------------------------------------
There you go again reading too much into what I said. I said he picked a great rig. I said he had a nice ride. ROD, type landing not mentioned. Probably stung but he had a nice ride.
Obviously a strong affinity to polls and czecks here, how about we do it the other way? Lets just say that the poll indicated a strong affinity to a scenario where the jumper obtained a good canopy, and was alive for the landing. IF the poll is grossly skewed, there should be dozens willing to comment and state their opinion *(whatever it is) to the contrary.
Therefore: OPINIONS WANTED:
If you have an opinion that leans towards this jumper being a no pull/couldnt pull/total malfunction/streamer'd in (i.e. DEAD ON IMPACT) then please post your opinion as a post so everyone can see your opinion of what your BEST GUESS is. No hard evidence required (there is none), just what do you think? Thank you. Dan
Honest! I am not your sharpest stick in the shed. There are lots on here far wiser and with more experience than me. I simply stated my opinion, and I am entitled to one. I used a poll to gather a rough idea of whether the masses thought that a hijacking had occuured at all (most thought id did on that night) I am not afraid to state that my opinion (and I believe that of 377) is that 1) he jumped 2) he got a good canopy. No more. No less. If you have an opinion or scenario that is other than this premise, now would be a GREAT time to hear it. We don't need no stinkin' poll! Just tell me that YOU don't agree with the results of the poll, or 1) or 2) above and why and I will respect you in the morning. Thank you!
Dan, for starters he wasn't properly prepaired or experienced. If he was he would have known how to lower the stairs. People try and claim he knew the Aircraft yet he couldn't even lower the stairs. Even you would have learned to do that prior to the hijacking. Jerry
Dan, I took your poll the night you put up the link. I am not a skydiver. I have a fear of airplanes, and I damn sure have a fear of jumping out of one. Not gonna happen. I answered that I thought the skyjacker survived. But I sure wouldn't bet the farm on that. I go back and forth on whether or not he survived. Both opinions to me are based on one fact. The fact that no body was ever found makes me think he may have survived. The fact that the money never turns up makes me think he did not survive. I could take that poll 10 times and answer that question each way 5 times. That's how split I am. But, the bottom line is that it's just a guess - for me anyway. I found the last name question interesting. I don't think the skyjacker used his real name. But I may have a bias here. After all of the reading and speculation I have done about DBC, I have this "master criminal" profile of him in my head. This "master criminal" would never use his real name. But at the end of the day, what if he wasn't the brilliant master criminal that so many of us think he was. What if he was just dumbass enough to use his real name? Think about that. If it turns out to be Uncle Lynn, wouldn't that just be so opposite of the way we have thought about Dan Cooper over the years?
"They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider
377 21
QuoteHonest! I am not your sharpest stick in the shed. There are lots on here far wiser and with more experience than me. I simply stated my opinion, and I am entitled to one. I used a poll to gather a rough idea of whether the masses thought that a hijacking had occuured at all (most thought id did on that night) I am not afraid to state that my opinion (and I believe that of 377) is that 1) he jumped 2) he got a good canopy. No more. No less. If you have an opinion or scenario that is other than this premise, now would be a GREAT time to hear it. We don't need no stinkin' poll! Just tell me that YOU don't agree with the results of the poll, or 1) or 2) above and why and I will respect you in the morning. Thank you!
I think Cooper deployed successfully. Even whuffos have done it from a skyjacked airliner. It is NOT impossible.
After that it's anyone's guess. Death certainly is a possibility.
Seems to me if he died, a body would have turned up.
Lots of publicity, lots of people looking, lots of people hoping to find and keep the loot.
Vultures are natural corpse location drones. I've been amazed at how they seem to find every large mammal carcass eventually. If I were searching long enough after the jump for decay to start working on the jumpers body, I'd be looking for vulture flocking.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
I found the last name question interesting. I don't think the skyjacker used his real name. But I may have a bias here. After all of the reading and speculation I have done about DBC, I have this "master criminal" profile of him in my head. This "master criminal" would never use his real name. But at the end of the day, what if he wasn't the brilliant master criminal that so many of us think he was. What if he was just dumbass enough to use his real name?
_______________________________________
Great comment - No one asked you to state that you were positive about what you thot, its just a opinion! Thats what the forum is "supposed" to be for, sharing ideas and making people think. You made me think. The idea that he might have been dumb enough to use his last name has crossed everyones mind. But then again the other signs are there that say he wore sunglasses, some makeup, and asked for the note back indicates that he was worried about somebody finding out who he was later. If he went to those lengths for identity protection, then identity was paramount to him, and would be for a caper like this. I think if your last name is Cooper, youre automatically excused from candidacy. Not even the masses from the Marla circle can support the notion, that he used his REAL last name, which speaks volumes to me. Thank you.
_______________________________________
Great comment - No one asked you to state that you were positive about what you thot, its just a opinion! Thats what the forum is "supposed" to be for, sharing ideas and making people think. You made me think. The idea that he might have been dumb enough to use his last name has crossed everyones mind. But then again the other signs are there that say he wore sunglasses, some makeup, and asked for the note back indicates that he was worried about somebody finding out who he was later. If he went to those lengths for identity protection, then identity was paramount to him, and would be for a caper like this. I think if your last name is Cooper, youre automatically excused from candidacy. Not even the masses from the Marla circle can support the notion, that he used his REAL last name, which speaks volumes to me. Thank you.
377 21
QuoteQuoteBlevins : I guess the real question is, could anyone survive this jump? 377 and I have discussed this in detail.377 now has his doubts.Tom Kaye measured the length of cord that was cut from the opened chute. There was just enough missing that would allow cooper to attach the money bag to his side. This was a mistake that an experienced skydiver would never make. After 377 and I discussed this he was in agreement that the chances of Cooper surviving this jump was next to none. Jerry
If he pulled right off the stairs he'd be OK. No spin and hanging under an open chute. Look at the slo mo video Snow made of the Air America 727 jumps. No spin, no tumble. A squidding canopy decelerates the jumper smoothly.
If he delayed the pull, big trouble. As soon as he hit the air beyond the area shielded by the plane KABOOM. In the WFFC jet jumps many people tumbled on exit. Fanny packs and velcroed wrist altimeters were ripped off a few people. My tight goggles were ripped off my face. Only my helmet over the strap held them on.
No big deal. Sunny day. Perfect horizon. No asymmetrical payload bag.
In a few seconds the experienced jumpers stabilized. BUT, the way you stabilize is to orient yourself with the horizon AND a heading reference. On a cloudy night you might have NEITHER. You can arch hard and you will end up belly to earth, but you can't stop a spin without a heading reference. An unchecked spin can increase in rotational speed until the jumper blacks out. An attached payload bag, unless tightly fastened and presenting a symmetrical drag profile relative to the jumper, will cause a spin.
At the symposium I showed photos of a test jump I did with a large canvas bag affixed to one leg. It wasn't carrying loot, just radio telemetry gear. During initial freefall that bag almost flipped me over. I managed to compensate with my body. My exit speed was low (about 75 knots). If I had hit the airstream at Coopers exit speed I'd have gone unstable. In daylight I could have fixed it, especially as I slowed down to 120 mph terminal velocity. At night with no horizon or heading reference I don't think I could have stabilized.
So I only agree with Jerry in one exit scenario, a delayed pull. If Cooper knew to pull right off the stairs I think he was stable, got a good chute and landed alive. After that I can't say. A water landing at night could easily be fatal. Even if he alighted on ground there could be problems.
I've done a jet jump. I've made three jumps with a big bag. I've made jumps with a walkie talkie and operated it after opening.. I've never combined all three but I can tell you that at night it would be a major handful.
377
Jerry and I have been having a dialog about stability when jumper exits with a bag tied on one side. I tried it. See attached photo and above comments.
Its a low res photo but you can see the bag on my left leg.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377: 1.With a larger bag and maybe a brief case loosely tied to your side, jumping from a jet with Coopers chute using a delayed pull at night what would happen to you if you were not an experienced skydiver?2. If you went into a spin then what? 3.In your picture did the bag you jumped with give you any trouble?
Vultures are natural corpse location drones. I've been amazed at how they seem to find every large mammal carcass eventually. If I were searching long enough after the jump for decay to start working on the jumpers body, I'd be looking for vulture flocking.
Quote
Well...
Then there's the Russian skydiver that went in at Perris not long ago.
He wasn't far off the search grid, face down with clothing & gear covering most of the exposed areas.
Quade would know 'exactly' how long he lay out there but it was a couple or a few months... IIRC.
Wasn't found until someone all but tripped over the remains. They were watching for scavenger activity, but none was detected.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites