377 21 #26126 October 1, 2011 I am pretty sure Farflung flew something really big where you could lose 4 engines and still have 50% of your power remaining. His use of the word TACAN instead of VOR/DME just screams military pilot. I'd hook Farflung to the polygraph after Jo is finished and just say the word STANEVAL to him. If you see a reaction then he's USAF for sure. There are female "cargo cults" near Clark AFB that build big crude B 52 shaped wooden structures (like duck decoys) hoping to lure Farflung back. Farflung is very modest. Most military pilots aren't ten words into a conversation on any subject before they reveal their "hunkier-than-you" status. Can you imagine an independent guy like Farflung flying around with a payload of multi megaton nukes? Gives me a chill. You just know he could have found the arming switch that is at the end of all those code input safeguard devices. Glad he didn't decide to execute foreign policy decisions on his own. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #26127 October 1, 2011 Quote I am pretty sure Farflung flew something really big where you could lose 4 engines and still have 50% of your power remaining. His use of the word TACAN instead of VOR/DME just screams military pilot. Well, Vicki is the expert on Farf's hunkiness factor, but I reckon this adds to it Do the nuns know about this??? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #26128 October 1, 2011 Quote Farflung is very modest. Most military pilots aren't ten words into a conversation on any subject before they reveal their "hunkier-than-you" status. Sounds like some skydivers I know .... present company excepted of course Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #26129 October 1, 2011 Quote Quote Men like skimpily clad women. as it gives us the opportunity to mentally undress them. If all women walked around naked, we would have nothing left ot pur imaginations, would we? Girls, the same but opposite likely holds true for you too. So, we have a gent here who writes very well, has thousands and thousands of hours in a chute but has never jumped, and is entertaining. Do we need his resume and identity also? Oh, I don't think Farflung should reveal his identity or anything like that. I was wrong about suggesting that last week. Maybe something like this though: "I was a commercial pilot for (insert years here)..." "Yeah, I was an air traffic controller..." Nothing personal. As i was talking with Farflung at the Tiki Bar last night over drinks, (Vicki was in the restroom - too much tequila - er I mean karaoke) he told me that Blevins was like that chimp that puts his hand in the termite mound, grabs a fistful of termites, then can't get his hand out. The little bugger just won't let go of those termites. Then he gets captured by the natives who beam him over the head and eat his little monkey brains. Let it go, Blevins. We'd hate to see you end up like that. Ahh, you know I'm kidding with you. Besides, I have it on good authority that Farflung is this guy. http://www.straightdope.com/pages/faq/cecil He's been fighting ignorance since 1973 (it's taking longer than he thought) and though many have tried to out him, none have succeeded. (Even if they thought they did, they were wrong) but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #26130 October 1, 2011 PEK, Just came back on today and haven't read forward, so excuse if someone has already answered your questions. Quote I have an image in my mind of Enrico Fermi furiously manipulating his slide rule as assorted scientists wait nervously around an atomic pile, waiting for an answer. You have somehow figured out who I am. Actually, never in the nuclear field. I've been a fan of Fermi, however, for his role is establishing a principle that enabled the creation of all the semiconductors. Once had an epiphany when I suddenly understood the "Fermi level." After not working with semiconductor theory for years, I'm sad to say it just went "poof." Anyway, I still have my large log-log decitrig, the pocket sized one, two of the big K&Es. Just couldn't bare to see 'em thrown out when everyone suddenly wanted those new scientific calculators. Pardon the fond memories you didn't ask for. QuoteNo one seems to be able to positively say what position the levers were found in after the aircraft landed in Reno. I expect that the FBI would have taken pix of everything they thought would be significant. Who knows if they would consider control settings to be so. It's possible they might have taken someone familiar with the plane aboard before everything got all fouled up to maybe point things out to them that might be significant. They could have pix in the files. Certain special people may have seen them, and doubtless would not have recognized any significance. Part of the nature of the entire case. QuoteWhat would compel someone to walk out a few steps, especially if he was not quite ready to go? I would have walked out a few steps to see if the stairs would drop as a test. If you're ready to go, and walk out and the stairs don't drop, then what? Another possibility is that a person might want to get the steps fixed down. I would think it would be a bit spooky having those steps trying to come back up a bit every time you took a step. With what I know now, I'd go out almost to the end to pull two ropes/cords with knots or bundles in them hard in between the upper (drive) struts and the stairwell sidewalls. This would stabilize the stair as low as it would go with my weight on it, and make it so that it would not be pushing back up against me at the instant I was bailing off. Also, the stair rebound would not come when I jumped. QuoteWeren't the stairs designed to help stabilize the aircraft in the fore and aft direction during loading? Not designed for the purpose. When the stairs are down, it definitely would help to stabilize against tail tipping. When the -200s came out, it was found the hard way that the plane could tip with its nose high in the air under some conditions. Counterintuitive, because the 200 is longer toward the front. It had something to do with load distribution. Anyway, airlines started requiring the aft airstair to be locked down on the 200s whether or not the stair was being used for ingress/egress. It could have been done as well on the 100s. It just wasn't needed. Quote how are the stairs deployed by the ground crews to introduce the stability? I assume the stairs are mechanically locked somehow. Maybe the ground crew has a big stick they use to prop the stairs up. At hijack time, the ground crews had multiple options for the -100 series, using the control station accessible from the ground. on the right side of the plane just forward of where the lower stair pivot is. If hydraulic "B" was on and the plane had elec power, they could use a hanle and pushbutton there, just as could be done from inside the plane. This pushbutton was attached on the side of its handle. If there was no elec or B hydraulic, the could drop the stair again the same as from inside. Then, they would walk up the steps until they could reach the stair struts and would pull on or both of the struts near the "elbows" until the stairs went down as far as they would. The elbows would usually pass "over center" and the pressure would pop them up against the downstops--basically bracket on each side of the stairwell up near the ceiling. Without power, if the crew wanted to push the stair down, they used a manual handpump inside the lower control station. Some airlines at some airports did use tail jacks. In the future, the design was changed to eliminate the pushbuttons and to use a hydraulic accumulator so that the stairs would have hydraulic pressure for up to about a half hour after B hydraulics was turned off. QuoteIf we know the position of the handles at Reno, the stair discussion ends. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. NOTHING WILL END STAIR DISCUSSION! EVER! (maybe just here if Quade pulls the plug;-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #26131 October 1, 2011 Good job, FarFlung. You do realize though that, if "someone" says something like pressurizing a seive to 20 atmospheres, it just might be humor? A little thing I don't think you mentioned is a major reason for the pressurization other than people comfort. not just being kept at 1 atmosphere. (I hope you didn't waste too much time trying to figure out what I was getting at.) Can't we just all get along? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #26132 October 1, 2011 If there is anyone out there who has any interest in the airstairs, does anyone have any question or comment about the post analyzing different modes of operation, or about my post re. getting (the stairs) ready to jump? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pek771 0 #26133 October 2, 2011 QuoteIf there is anyone out there who has any interest in the airstairs, does anyone have any question or comment about the post analyzing different modes of operation, or about my post re. getting (the stairs) ready to jump? Actually, yes. Isn't the second guy out in the photo wearing loafers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #26134 October 2, 2011 QuoteActually, yes. Isn't the second guy out in the photo wearing loafers? Looks like it to me. Maybe he had velcro inside? Did my earlier reply give you all you were lookin for? Also, I assume you noticed there was actually something about the airstair? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pek771 0 #26135 October 2, 2011 Thanks, hominid. I know all there is to know about the 727-100 aft stairs now. Well, not everything, I suppose. If I could actually go see one, then I would understand it better. I was wrong about the fore aft stability. I am still unsure of the shear lugs, whether they were even a factor in landing. The photos I saw on the Sluggo site indicate little damage to the stair assembly, so they weren't down hard via any pneumatic or hydraulic device, unless the sher lugs were in fact sheared. The stairs are the entire DBC story, as it is from the pressure bump that all maps are derived. The pressure bump would be somewhat meaningless if not for the comments of the FE at the post hijack FBI sled drop test. I can only take the word of the FE, as did everyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AncestralManor 0 #26136 October 2, 2011 My favorite physicist is Richard Feynman. Hominid's explained motivation made me think you are interested perhaps in finding an "O Ring" clue (ala the cause of Challenger disaster) that may have been missed. Wikipedia has a page for Feynman but does not describe Feynman as a banjo playing, safe cracking, incurable romantic. His autobiographical books do :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman Feynman did love women,wine and song - not just math and physics. Sure to get an attaboy from many in this forum. However, I do have a problem with so many calculations using imprecise information, particularly since much of the original source, contemporaneous info is NOT available - to at least bracket if not resolve the inconsistencies. Blevins repost of some of Farflung's calculations for the flight path and these recent discussions about the aft stairs don't seem to converge on anything that resembles an epiphany to me. Am I missing something? How would I factor in the report that the co-pilot told Ralph at his 1980 retirement that the FBI flight path was not correct - then only 9 years out? I am a head scratching WHUFFO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #26137 October 2, 2011 Quote I was wrong about the fore aft stability. I am still unsure of the shear lugs, whether they were even a factor in landing. The photos I saw on the Sluggo site indicate little damage to the stair assembly, so they weren't down hard via any pneumatic or hydraulic device, unless the sher lugs were in fact sheared. They were up pretty well when the plane landed in Reno. As the plane slowed down, the stair dropped more. Eventually, it dropped low enough to scrape and spark a bit. QuoteThe stairs are the entire DBC story, as it is from the pressure bump that all maps are derived. The pressure bump would be somewhat meaningless if not for the comments of the FE at the post hijack FBI sled drop test. I can only take the word of the FE, as did everyone else. And, unfortunately, I think that nobody has ever corraled him to talk to him about it. He was also the person seeing the pressure indications, and in control of the B hydraulics. A central figure, but all anyone wanted to talk to was the pilots and stews. I think he musta hid from reporters, and that was likely the plan of NWA or the FBI. BTW: I analyzed a pic looking up into the stairwell. The pic looked authentic of N467US right after the hijack. I think it was p/o a german language Discovery pgm. Anyway, by lightening it and having the software look for edges, one can clearly see the door at the normal control station hanging out into the aisle and casting a shadow forward onto the bulkhead. No help about actual control positions, however. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #26138 October 2, 2011 QuoteHowever, I do have a problem with so many calculations using imprecise information, particularly since much of the original source, contemporaneous info is NOT available - to at least bracket if not resolve the inconsistencies. Blevins repost of some of Farflung's calculations for the flight path and these recent discussions about the aft stairs don't seem to converge on anything that resembles an epiphany to me. Am I missing something? I would say you have a healthy, well developed brain. If anyone has an epiphany or convergence based on what we have now, I would think that anyone doesn't understand the situation. I think the little we have needs to be examined closely just in hopes of finding something that helps establish something. Keep watchin and figuring. I hope that some of what I'll be sharing will help. QuoteHow would I factor in the report that the co-pilot told Ralph at his 1980 retirement that the FBI flight path was not correct - then only 9 years out? I suggest to factor in all reports and claims as that. There is a lot of this stuff unsupported by any other known facts. Mr. Rataczak may have said that or something like that. He may have been wrong. See the proof he offered about the claim? I think the best substantiated stuff is the plotted flight path. It could be fake or a huge mistake by our air defense forces. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #26139 October 2, 2011 Ralph and I have discussed the flight path in great detail we have even discussed it with both pilots. I believe the conversation you are refering too did take place at Ralphs retirement party. Ralph was told that the pilots believed there were further to the East of the search area by about 13 miles.And yes you are correct about the debriefing of the pilots they were not asked all the proper Questions. Ralph was not involved in there debriefing but he later stated that the debriefing of Pilots, after a hyjacking should be done by a Investigator with flight experience and knowledge of aircraft. Ralph state's that if they had been debriefed properly things might have had a different outcome especially involving the search area. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVickiW 0 #26140 October 2, 2011 Quote As i was talking with Farflung at the Tiki Bar last night over drinks, (Vicki was in the restroom - too much tequila - er I mean karaoke) Step off! He is mine! Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #26141 October 2, 2011 eVicki, I'm afraid to look at the attachment. Will I be alright if I do it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #26142 October 2, 2011 Vicki: Are you sure you want to devulge any womens secrets, to all us men ignorant of the thought patern of scorned women. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #26143 October 2, 2011 Quote How would I factor in the report that the co-pilot told Ralph at his 1980 retirement that the FBI flight path was not correct - then only 9 years out? I think one thing that came out in this forum once was that the people that did the initial report from NWA, and the search zone analysis, did it without benefit of input from the flight crew. You know it's hell searching back through these two threads to find something like this, but maybe some of those who were here could verify whether or not I remember it right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #26144 October 2, 2011 Jerry, Did you look at it? Is it safe? I'm not gonna look unless someone trustworthy tells me it's safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVickiW 0 #26145 October 2, 2011 QuoteJerry, Did you look at it? Is it safe? I'm not gonna look unless someone trustworthy tells me it's safe. Um...yeah....good luck with that! Oh...wait....I am supposed to be the "prom queen" of DZ. Yes go ahead and look...it is safe. Farfy......I bowled a 174, 144, and 163 just for you tonight....Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #26146 October 2, 2011 Hominid: When it comes to the air stairs I think maybe we should look at it as Cooper did, for it to have any value in this investigation. To him it was a obsticle nothing more. He did not know how to open it, so he ask Tina and she assisted him, Still if the pilot, had of left the stair well down for take off, as Cooper requested he wouldn't of needed help. Point being Cooper had no experience with airliners dangers involved with leaving the stairwell down were even known by common folk. Now he had to exit the aircraft from some where. Why not the side door. easier and safer, side exits are prefered by most people that enjoy falling from the sky ,feeling that sudden blast of wind, the excitement the awareness, the blessfull rush the (!) sorry got off the subject matter for a moment. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVickiW 0 #26147 October 2, 2011 Quote Quote I am pretty sure Farflung flew something really big where you could lose 4 engines and still have 50% of your power remaining. His use of the word TACAN instead of VOR/DME just screams military pilot. Well, Vicki is the expert on Farf's hunkiness factor, but I reckon this adds to it Do the nuns know about this??? It is HunkYness! edited to say: Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #26148 October 2, 2011 Vicki Key word Queen or prom if you like. ?????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (not a typo error) Were you also a cheer leader? and what was your favorite cheer. This response ought to be good Maybe Even Quade will laugh.Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #26149 October 2, 2011 QuoteWhen it comes to the air stairs I think maybe we should look at it as Cooper did, for it to have any value in this investigation. To him it was a obsticle nothing more. I think? everyone would agree that it just an obstacle for him. Not just some game he was enjoying. I kinda think pretty much everyone has thought this, but it doesn't seem to have solved the case. QuoteHe did not know how to open it, so he ask Tina and she assisted him, I think you're wrong about that asking her part, but I'm not sure if it matters one way or the other. QuoteStill if the pilot, had of left the stair well down for take off, as Cooper requested he wouldn't of needed help. Right. QuotePoint being Cooper had no experience with airliners dangers involved with leaving the stairwell down were even known by common folk. Are you saying that Joe Blow on the street knew it would be dangerous to takeoff with stairs down even though it has been done without harming anyone? QuoteNow he had to exit the aircraft from some where. Why not the side door. easier and safer, side exits are prefered by most people that enjoy falling from the sky ,feeling that sudden blast of wind, the excitement the awareness, the blessfull rush the (!) sorry got off the subject matter for a moment. Jerry Would that be one of the doors over the wing, or the galley door, or the front entry? I think most people who like to go out of planes in the air would think it much safer to go out the rear if you're doing it at 150+ knots. But I can understand that feeling it gives you to think about doing it. Some really go for the excitement of danger. You know the plane didn't have struts coming down from the wings to hang onto while you climb out there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVickiW 0 #26150 October 2, 2011 Quote Vicki Key word Queen or prom if you like. ?????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (not a typo error) Were you also a cheer leader? and what was your favorite cheer. This response ought to be good Maybe Even Quade will laugh.Jerry Never participated in school cheer.....Cheerleaders in High School (_!_) Cheerleaders today (______!______) Me in HS (_!_) Me today (_!_)Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
