DB Cooper

[CaretakerAl 0]

"BTW, this goes for anybody..."

Thank you, Sir. I have sufficiently proven my point to at least one human being and will leave you with that knowledge. If you are too egotistical to trust but verify, may Jamie and Blevins move next door to you. (ØØ)

[377 20]

Jamie wrote:

Quote

quite frankly this forum is biased to enable her to harrass and bully other posters who don't agree with her agenda anyway.

Huh? Biased to enable... ?

How can you be credibly bullied by an elderly lady with a keyboard? You can ignore or block PMs and nobody can force you to read their posts. Anyway, Jo is harmless so relax Jamie.

I'm with 99 on the 727 jump video. I see careless editing and sound synching but no conspiracy to mislead. What's the big deal anyway? The important issue is that live jumps were made from a 727 prior to Norjack. Japan, Thailand, or ? What's the dufference as far as DBC is concerned?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[nigel99 144]

The whole "spotting" thing winds me up

I haven't done a night jump but I have spotted before the biggest plane being a Casa 212. The complete lack of knowledge of the subject is really frustrating.

I would venture to say that IF Cooper spotted a 727 the pool of subjects would be exclusively focused on experienced jumpers as I don't believe it could be done without interaction with the crew. "5 right" at least once?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[quade 3]

Agreed.

Game theory highly suggests DB Cooper wasn't an experienced skydiver and that his "plan" was barely thought out. Considering his obvious lack of knowledge in the most daring part of the adventure I think it's pretty safe to assume he had similar lack of knowledge of advanced E&E techniques that would have allowed him to survive the night on the ground as well.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

Damn Quade, you are really getting into this Cooper thing. Early on you stated this thread was a waste of time now you are one of the leading posters lately. Are you becoming a little addicted?

[quade 3]

I am occasionally dragged into it when people misbehave. Those that feel they have been slighted or want additional information on other "new" users have a tendency to send me PMs. When that happens, I will look a bit more closely at the thread. In doing that, sometimes I'll see obvious stuff a five-year-old with access to Google could easily debunk; things like a guy walking 15-20 miles that night dressed as he was. Come on folks, use your brains.

Anyway, I'm not anymore into it than I've ever been nor has my position on it wavered nor been swayed by these recent individuals popping up. I have, however, been dragged back in at a time when I have a little more "free" time than usual.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Robert99 37]

Quote

We had a bit of a falling out because you you came to a conclusion about the winds aloft based on course and speed made good AND your calculated True Air Speed.

While I do not doubt that calculations can be made, I do question the authenticity and accuracy of the "facts" you've based them on; notes recalled by a crew under stress and later appearing in the margins of FBI notes. NO actual flight logs.

Further, while you have calculated some headwind components based on course and speed made good versus your calculated TAS, they alone tell us little about the actual winds aloft that night since a headwind component is only part of the equation.

All one need do is look at the radar track to understand the crew was heavily bracketing V23 to stay on course.

When you can tell me for certain the headwind component and how much the PIC was crabbing to stay on course, maybe we can begin to have a conversation about the matter of winds aloft.

Quade, Aerial navigation is neither brain surgery nor rocket science. All you have to do is use your brains and you are now on record supporting using your brains.

The calculations, including assumptions and limitations, are online on Sluggo's web page and here on DZ.com. The main limitation is the lack of information in the Seattle ARTC transcripts about the aircraft's flight path. It is easy to conclude that the Seattle transcripts have been edited to remove the information about the flight path.

The time hacks in the Seattle transcripts are about as accurate as they can be. The times listed in the "FBI Notes" are suspect since they did not always come directly from the airliner transmissions but, in some cases, are routed through other aircraft, the ARINC system, and the NWA teletype system.

The above information was not taken from PIC debriefings. The ATC transcripts were in real time and only the FBI notes involve a time lag. As stated above, the information in the Seattle ARTC area has apparently been deliberately edited to remove information that could be used to prepare a "flight log".

This editing may, or may not, have been done after the money was found at Tina Bar and some people were being heavily leaned on to explain how the money ended up so far from the originally estimated jump zone.

The flight path between the Toledo area and the southern edge of Portland as shown in the FBI maps is not believable. The airliner was basically not "bracketing V23" in that area as the radar plots would lead you to believe.

In plain English, those plots are not believeable since it has the airliner flying several miles off to the side of the inbound radial, and parallel to that radial, for several minutes. I can (or could) do a better job tracking that radial in my own little airplane.

If you wish a further explanation of true air speed (including its calculation), ground speed, ground track, headwind component, crosswind component, and how they are all calculated and fit together, just let me know and I will be happy to comply. Also, let me know what type of flight calculator you use (I prefer Jeppesen) and I will tell you how to do the calculations on it.

In the meantime, "use your brains" (your words).

Robert Nicholson

[JamieCooper 0]

Quote

Jamie wrote:

Quote

quite frankly this forum is biased to enable her to harrass and bully other posters who don't agree with her agenda anyway.

Huh? Biased to enable... ?

How can you be credibly bullied by an elderly lady with a keyboard? You can ignore or block PMs and nobody can force you to read their posts. Anyway, Jo is harmless so relax Jamie.

I'm with 99 on the 727 jump video. I see careless editing and sound synching but no conspiracy to mislead. What's the big deal anyway? The important issue is that live jumps were made from a 727 prior to Norjack. Japan, Thailand, or ? What's the dufference as far as DBC is concerned?

377

sure the jump video doesn't conflict with my story, and it may be a syncing problem but that still doesn't explain why the out of sync portion has been boosted and so conveniently edited just enough to support a misleading thailand theory.
but either way, shouldn't be upsetting to anyone that I re-edited it to remove the "out of sync/added audio".

as for the bully thing, have you not read the posts?
she's not only trying to contact me here.
claims to know me b4 I posted here?
wants more personal private info than a Sudanese identity thief.
gets angry when I don't cooperate.
suggests I could be declared an unfit parent, then claims to have influence with all sorts of Govt. and law enforcement people.
keeps posting I'm a scary person?
a kindergarten child could see where she's trying to go with this, unfortunately there are many cases where innocent people have been arrested or even put on death row over some woman crying wolf.
I'm sure coming from Florida where they incarcerate rappers, and other entertainers, and rig elections, being the widow of a dirtball like the DW, and somehow making it in the competitive real estate market as a woman in a time before womens lib. makes for a sweet nice old lady.

this forum is biased.
all kinds of personal attack posts started by JO.
from the first day I came here, and well before.
which is a violation of the first rule of DZ.com
but apparently because of her age or something she's been given special privileges.
fyi I know some women who are 80 and 108. and they have their "sh*t" together far more than this scammer!
her age is a moot point, and just being exploited for another type of scam.
while obviously we are all free to go elsewhere as quade puts so eloquently, I don't see how that justifies literally thousands of site rules violations over years, against many posters even to the point of removing actual FBI agents, and banning others, by a single instigating, already proven to be full of it, poster.
that is just plain old special treatment, favoring and enabling Jo.
"by all accounts I knew her b4 I came here?" lol by Jo's account you mean quade!
I was invited here by someone else who can verify it.
I came here to discuss the DB Cooper/Norjack case, not be slandered and stalked for not cooperating with Jo's agendas.
seriously, what does her bizarre theory suggesting I was adopted have to do with Norjack at all?

[quade 3]

I also have Jeppesen E6B "whiz wheels", both a larger and smaller one as well as the electronic one they made in the 90s. Understand, before I was a skydiver, I was also a commercial pilot and CFI.

Again, it's not whether or not the calculations can be done, it's the information the calculations would be based on aren't trustworthy.

You actually say as much yourself in your post above.

With that in mind, to say you have calculated the aircraft's "true airspeed" is, as I have maintained all along, a misnomer. To draw authoritative conclusions of the winds aloft based on the information available is guess work at best.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[smokin99 0]

Off DB topic but had to comment -- I just looked at Quade's profile pictures. Cool formations. Amazing to this whuffo how you all do that without tangling up or landing on top of each other.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[Robert99 37]

Quote

I also have Jeppesen E6B "whiz wheels", both a larger and smaller one as well as the electronic one they made in the 90s. Understand, before I was a skydiver, I was also a commercial pilot and CFI.

Again, it's not whether or not the calculations can be done, it's the information the calculations would be based on aren't trustworthy.

You actually say as much yourself in your post above.

With that in mind, to say you have calculated the aircraft's "true airspeed" is, as I have maintained all along, a misnomer. To draw authoritative conclusions of the winds aloft based on the information available is guess work at best.

Quade, "True Airspeed" is the speed of the aircraft with respect to the air mass in which it is flying. Nothing more or less. It is very easy to calculate using the ambient temperature, pressure altitude, and "true indicated airspeed". And this information was available to the flight crew.

True indicated airspeed is the reading on the airspeed indicator corrected for instrument and position errors. Admittedly, the instrument and position errors for the airliner are not known, or at least available. In any event, a large amount of engineering and flight test effort goes into minimizing the position error as well as the instrument error so, for all practical purposes, ignoring them in this instance is not going to produce any significant error in the calculations.

If you know the winds aloft, you can calculate your ground speed using the above information. If you don't know the winds aloft, but do know you ground speed between two points (such as VORTACs) and crab angle, then you can calculate the wind speed and direction at your altitude.

If you have low quality data for both ground speed and winds aloft, then you can do a series of iterations which will approximate the actual ground speed and winds aloft. Each should be accurate to within a few knots.

In the case of the hijacked airliner, only two positions can be determined from the Seattle ATC transcripts following takeoff (I believe they were 14 and 17 DME on V23) from Seattle. A third position can be determined from the Oakland ATC transcripts during the handoff from Seattle Center near the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California.

The distance from the 17 DME position to the handoff position near the Fort Jones VORTAC is roughly 300 nautical miles. So even a simple assumption such as the airliner staying on the V23 centerline for that entire distance, will produce a reasonably accurate approximation of its ground speed even if a detour was made in the Portland area.

Other such "massaging" of the available information can be done to provide information that is valid for all practical purposes. And this information is as accurate as you will be able to get in this matter unless someone produces the full transcripts from the Seattle Center.

Robert Nicholson

[quade 3]

I keep hearing you attempting to justify it, but I also hear you admitting it's just an educated guess.

It still doesn't get us the actual winds aloft (which is where this entire thing started).

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Robert99 37]

Quote

I keep hearing you attempting to justify it, but I also hear you admitting it's just an educated guess.

It still doesn't get us the actual winds aloft (which is where this entire thing started).

Quade, The winds aloft are ALWAYS estimates! And the winds the aircraft actually sees changes from moment to moment, that is the nature of meterology (or fluid dynamics if you prefer).

"The track made good" (your term) is history and not necessarily what is true at the present moment. But you have to use the best information available even if it does leave some things to be desired.

Robert Nicholson

[quade 3]

Yes, but understand it's of prime significance to anyone that is either claiming or debunking a landing site.

To date, all estimates are simply guesswork. Some may be "better" than others, but clearly none are definitive. Some have claimed exit points that are clearly unsupported while others have claimed winds aloft that are equally unsupported.

The introduction of recent stories into this thread lead to yet another round of this by people claiming to have it all figured out.

Clearly that's BS.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skyjack71 0]

This is an edited post made by Jamie:

Quote

as for the bully thing, have you not read the posts?
she's not only trying to contact me here.

this forum is biased.
all kinds of personal attack posts started by JO. from the first day I came here, and well before.
which is a violation of the first rule of DZ.com but apparently because of her age or something she's been given special privileges.

Below I am making public my 3rd PM to him. Note he had already made my 1st 2 posts public and had been instructed how to block PM's by Orange.


The title of the PM was
Risking Talking to You:


I really need to talk to you in absolute CONFIDENCE if you are sincere in your search - remember that everything I know is NOT in this forum and NEVER been told to the FBI - involves others who are innocent victims of circumstances.

My regular E-mail is public -
[email protected]
Retired real estate - never gave up the email address...just encase I ever needed to go back to work.

Sincerely, Jo Weber

Please - Open your heart and your mind and understand that NOT everything is public. You have Nothing to loose, because what you say to me stays with me and that is how I have done this since get go - 14 yrs ago.

You seem to be calming down and starting to be more co-operative in the thread - that is a good thing. Also you seem to be doing more research and remember most of this has been covered in the yrs this thread has existed.

Note: to be more brief in the thread - DO NOT quote the complete post you are answering.
Takes up space and stops others from reading the complete post.

Do Quote: Then edit and delete the parts of the Quote that have NOTHING to do with the reply you are making. When the practice of using the complete prior post is used - it makes the thread - LONG and boring and repetitive.

Just trying to help - I have learned this from long and tedious trial and error.

There is NOTHING threatening about that post.



Now for the 4th and final PM I made:

Titled: Information:

Please answer these questions and let me see if I can see if this corresponds with some other information I cannot reveal.

I had done a long email, but I deleted the questions because I am still afraid of your reactions and this is a PRIVATE matter.
I lost my connections because of the PM you made private - so please help me out here. I may hold the KEY to your past and it may be one you never in your wildest dream gave any consideration to.

Do you have a LIVE birth certificate with the name of the Dr. or Nurse assisting in the birth recorded in a timely manner. Delayed registrations are alway suspicious.

Is your mother still alive and/or do you know any relatives that witnessed your birth. Their divorce happenrd too quickly after your birth - that was NOT the norm in those days.

Old friends or relatives of your father maybe able to answer a lot of questions such as the state of mind your father was in prior to your birth and afterward

Your birthdate is DEAD on.
The right sex.
Your last name is Cooper.
Your middle name is Jason.

This is what I have to work with and a story I was told by 3 individuals.

Your state of mind and the anger you showed in your posts - show there is something missing in your life and a lot of unanswered questions. Your father's actions when his world was falling apart - you were the one he took and held in his arms until you started crying? Think about WHY? It is called love and fear of loosing the only thing in his life he knew was his.

I am a 70 plus woman so I am not playing games with you. I have 2 daughters 50 and 48 - so I do understand.

I maybe connecting DOTs that Do not Connect, but what if? I don't have a lot of time left to bring the pieces together.

I wish I could actually talk to you because you can read a lot into a persons voice, but I am afraid to let you have my phone number. I live a very private life and my phone number is NOT under Weber. This is how I have stayed out of the media and I like it that way.

Something else was in your story - something I will discuss when we verify the above.

Love of a child has a way of transcending everything else. Did your mother ever have any miscarriages? Your mother loved you because she is the one who nutured you - but, she didn't have to give birth to you to have this love. In the 70's it was different than it was today..we did what was necessary to show our love and we didn't give up easily...not until we had exhausted all of our options to hold the marriage together.

Seems like your parents had an unusual marriage - if she actually tried to help him with is books afterward and it is strange that she would also turn on him.
She went from wanting to help him to turning on him...think about the possibilities of what could have created this other than what she told you. Did your father ever speak ill of your mother...You never said so I have a feeling he did NOT speak ill of her to you or to others.

A lot of yrs transpired from 1971 when they separated or divorce. If your mother thought your father was Cooper - there was a reward for turning him in. Did you know that? You can bet if she thought he was Cooper then she would have turned him in, but I believe both of them were hiding a different kind of secret.

Your last name was Cooper - that was enough to carry on a line of gestures and kidding around...it was the stories about you mother's reactions I do not understand. If your father was Cooper - it was a simple matter of turning him in and collecting the reward which would have off set any child-support payments.

The information I asked for in the PM had in most part been requested in an Open Post.
The insite, I offered up to help him understand something he may not have a grasp on. I found nothing threatening in any of those PM's.

I know SECRETS - I never told and never made public and WILL not as they involve confidences.
Sluggo and others can vouch for the fact that I do NOT make everything public I know. I need enough information to see if the puzzle fits together - and it is PRIVATE. If I find NO connection then it is over. If Jamie prefers I can make arrangements for him to provide the information to an attorney who will compare it to the nformation I have....mutual 3rd party. I do not mean our resident Attorney in the thread.

I have only made offers to help and there is NO threat involved.

Respectfully,
Jo Weber

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JamieCooper 0]

are the FBI withholding key data or something?
I don't understand why it should be so hard to figure out an approximate landing zone? the bump when he jumped makes perfect sense. the rest should just be a matter of number crunching.

[377 20]

Quade wrote about Snowmman:

Quote

Really? Do you REALLY invite this guy back to your party?

Yes, we do. A number of us have voiced that opinion.

The people who post here form kind of a family. Dropzone.com is a home for this family. We have our black sheep and our unruly relatives, but they all get a seat at the table. If someone misbehaves there are consequences, but nobody should be disowned and shunned for life. You and Snow piss each other off, but thats no reason to ban him permanently. Telling us that if we want Snow as part of the family we all have to find a new house is unnecessarily harsh.

It's a shame you esssentially said never ever ever, because it makes backing down (or moderating your stance as I'd prefer to describe it) difficult.

The way I see it is that even if Snow gets serial banishments (like Georger) we get so much useful info in the period during which he participates. Civility is important to me too, I think you can see that in how I conduct myself here, but should this forum be more about manners than analysis and research?

And a note to Jo, when I say Occam tells me live crooks do not abandon real money I am speaking of the money found at Tena bar, not some hypothetical larger sum allegedly buried in a milk can.

Quade doesnt seem to agree with my idea that ALL DBC publications and media events potentially help solve the case by getting more people interested and aware.

This isnt about alien abductions (which any rational person would regard as delusional), it's about a real unsolved crime. There was a real DBC, we just do not know who he was or what happened to him after he exited the 727. Someone watching the upcoming Myth-story Channel show might get a memory triggered, an abandoned car that got towed, a tenant who never showed up again and left all his belongings, etc. You don't have to buy into the KC=DBC formula. The biggest benefit comes from widely distributing info about the crime and hopefully stimulating additional interest in solving it.

Blevins gets flamed pretty hard here considering that he has said over and over that KC=DBC is just a theory, that he has no absolute proof. I think he has presented a pretty convincing case that KC was up to something besides being a low paid NWA employee, but I see no connection to Norjack. The alleged panic of his friend about the tugboat logs do not put KC on the plane. I've spent a lot of time in commercial fishing. Logs stay with the vessel. Crew may keep their own personal logs but the vessel log (which includes crew lists) belongs to the owners and doesnt go with the captain.

The Tena Bar money is very puzzling, but less so if you consider a dredging explanation. Snow has some pretty good ideas about this, but it requires you to conclude that Palmer's analysis was incorrect.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

Quote

Quade, The winds aloft are ALWAYS estimates!

Is that true? With the advent of INS and Doppler Nav winds aloft could be accurately measured (well, actually "derived" since the wind isnt measured directly) in real time using simple computers. GPS has made it even easier.

I am not a licensed pilot so forgive me if I mess up some of the air nav stuff.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[quade 3]

Quote

are the FBI withholding key data or something?

They ARE withholding some data, however, when it comes to the precise data that would enable us to figure out certain things like the winds, they simply don't have it.

Quote

I don't understand why it should be so hard to figure out an approximate landing zone? the bump when he jumped makes perfect sense. the rest should just be a matter of number crunching.

Let me give you a puzzle to solve. Should be simple number crunching.

Somewhere over the state of Washington a man jumps from a plane. People "sort of" think they know the time based on a "pressure bump", but nobody actually saw him leave. People "sort of" think they know where this was, but the timing could vary. People "sort of" know that the winds were faster than zero and "sort of" think they were less than 60. People "sort of" know where the pilot thinks he was at the time. People "sort of" know where the aircraft "sort of" was based on a radar track that is questionably accurate. People have NO freekin' clue if the person deployed his parachute immediately after exit or even if he deployed it at all.

No. It's not simply a matter of number crunching. It's an impossible task.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

Quote

Someone watching the upcoming Mythistory Channel show might get a memeory triggered, an abandoned car that got towed, a tenant who never showed up again and left all his belongings, etc. You don't have to buy into the KC=DBC formula.

This may have held sway 39 years ago, but do you really think there is a person alive today that isn't aware of the DB Cooper case, has any information about it and hasn't thought about it before?

Further, how reliable would those memories now be? Or, more likely simply confabulations of their addled minds attempting to find order out of what truly is chaos at this point.

Please. It's a silly argument.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[377 20]

Quote

I don't understand why it should be so hard to figure out an approximate landing zone? the bump when he jumped makes perfect sense. the rest should just be a matter of number crunching.

You CAN figure it out, but the area of uncertainty is HUGE.

The USAF SAGE radar at McChord should have provided a very acurate track. Dunno what was done with that data. SAGE used networking to combine radar data from many remote sites, It was probably used to direct the F 106 interceptors that wrre sent hunting for the 727. The SAGE computer system had over 70,000!!! vacuum tubes. Maybe it was having problems that evening.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

Quote

This may have held sway 39 years ago, but do you really think there is a person alive today that isn't aware of the DB Cooper case, has any information about it and hasn't thought about it before?

Further, how reliable would those memories now be? Or, more likely simply confabulations of their addled minds attempting to find order out of what truly is chaos at this point.

Please. It's a silly argument.

A great argument for doing nothing. Everything is too old, subject to flawed memory, and has been rehashed over and over. It's hopeless.

I disagree. Cold cases get solved this way from time to time, even really old ones. Sure, the odds are long, but it is not hopeless and not silly.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

Blevins wrote:

Quote

4) Unless you believe it was dredging, then linking three bundles found in the same place to a Cooper death is a tough sell. One bundle in the same place, yes. A great deal of the ransom found in one place, yes. Any other amount, don't start shoving your chips 'all in' just yet.

Dredging could account for it, but you have to disregard the conclusions of Palmer who was actually there and looked at the strata etc.

Occam likes the dredge explanation.

I am always wary of second guessing experts who had access to the scene at Tena bar. Palmer wasnt a complete dummy. I'd like to hear from others as to how Palmer might have reached an incorrect conclusion given the data he had.

People have drowned in the Columbia and their bodies have never been found. It is something to ponder when thinking about Cooper.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[quade 3]

Quote

I disagree. Cold cases get solved this way from time to time, even really old ones. Sure, the odds are long, but it is not hopeless and not silly.

Really? Name a single case this old that hinged on the testimony of an eyewitness coming forward as a result of what they saw in a fictionalized TV special (which is what all of these are at this point).

I'm not saying that the search for the identity of DB Cooper isn't a fun little hobby (or financially rewarding) exploit for some folks, but to think somebody is going to remember something significant that solves the case is simply wishful thinking.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Robert99 37]

Quote

are the FBI withholding key data or something?
I don't understand why it should be so hard to figure out an approximate landing zone? the bump when he jumped makes perfect sense. the rest should just be a matter of number crunching.

Jamie, Go to Sluggo's web page and then download the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center transcripts and the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center transcripts. Then read them both very carefully.

After reading them, can you determine where the airliner is and what it is doing from the Oakland Center transcripts? Can you determine where the airliner is from the Seattle Center transcripts? I think one of your answers will be "yes" and the other one will be "no".

After the 17 DME mile point south of the Seattle VORTAC, there is nothing in the Seattle transcripts that gives a location until the aircraft is handed off to the Okland Center in northern California which is about two hours and 300+ nautical miles later. Between those two points, the only communication between the Seattle Center and the airliner involves passing altimeter settings, VHF radio frequency changes, directions to "ident" (which is simply pushing the "ident" button on the transponder to enhance its signal so the controller can be certain he is looking at the correct aircraft), and confirming the airliner's altitude.

Things are vastly different in the Oakland Center transcripts which also include the "phone talk" between controllers as they discuss the aircraft's location, intentions, and flight path. The Oakland transcripts contain all the information that is necessary to figure out what the controllers and flight crew are doing. Where is that information for the Seattle Center?

Robert Nicholson