DB Cooper

[BruceSmith 3]

377 - Some personality disorders increase the ability to manipulate others. Pychopaths/Sociopaths are a good example. Ted Bundy was known to be very charming, Charles Manson was also very good at it.


Bruce - Given how much off the wall crap has been posted here, suggestions of personality disorders are well within reason. Can you make any good guesses as to what specific disorders and why you think so?

[snowmman 3]

I just noticed this one I posted above, seems to have a right hand pull. (attached)

I don't see adjustments for the legs. Were there any (late '50s NB6)

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

As to your question on Duane Webber. Ralph does not believe he was cooper.

YOU do not answer questions for Ralph H. You are not Ralph H.
and no one here knows a Duane Webber. You MADE many claims in that horrible phone call where you called me a liar over and over and over and making threaths in an attempt to force me to say I was lieing.
Folks I will say nothing you guys have submitted me to would or could hold a candle to the way I WAS treated by Mr. Thomas.

You know how the movies protrayed treatment to prisoners of war by repeating the same things over and over to find the location of the company and how many there were and with every answer they gave it was YOU LIE. I took over an hour of this one night from this man and he has yet to even say I'm sorry, He was out of order. He asked me to call him.

Mr. Thomas if you are the God almighty you claim to be then CALL the man I told you to call. They may call me Crazy around here but, you really need some help - had you talked to me like that in my home or in public or had I recorded it - you would have been Baker Acted in FL (Observation for 72 hours).. '

It is alright to question some one but you don't get nasty and rude.
Since you claim everything I said and every place I went to with witnesses was a LIE - did you get soll sample from those places - they do exist and you know they do.

Please refrain from answering questions directed at someone other than yourself. The prior media exposure shows that Raplh did at one time believe Duane could have been Cooper, but the there are so many misquots in the media - WHO does anyone believe.

Rather than badger me check out the creditable witness I provided. He will speak to you and answer your questions so you can stop accusing me of "things". Show some respect if you want respect shown to you.

Make Sure that Kaye has samples from those area - especially the sample from above Winterly - east of Winterly - lots of clay there and the the busines down below there on a bardge - now that would be an unusual chemical. Also all of those bucket that the man kept in his opened garage.... they held any tthing from feed, plaster, paint, metal part,...he never threw away anything and the container held many many things. It would be a wise idea to go to the MT Hood area and get some soil samples there - very wise. Also go to the area of the tower and shed - since it has been developed the chemistry there would be changed.

You are going to do what you want done and not what needs to be done to really solve this.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Hi Jo,

the past is the past.
Let it go. (edit) If you don't, I'll change my back tattoo, I swear it! :)

The only thing that matters is people's behavior going forward.

(edit) Note this includes you, me, everyone.
Past wars are boring. Everyone has them.

(edit) I can't believe our embedded journalist is really pursuing MKULTRA, and at the same time spouting all that psych speak all serious-like. Does the DBC thread bring out everyone's inner whackiness?? (including me)

(edit) Does the DBC thread sometimes feel like watching Midget Bowling on Youtube? I think so? Maybe by design?

[georger 197]

(d) The geologist that worked the site stated that it would be of a certain impossibility that on its own the money could have broke through the clay deposits from the dredging and the dig showed no signs of disturbance in the clay layer.

[nitrochute 2]

the picture is reversed.there are adjustments on the leg straps,its just hard to see the way the harness is laid out in the pic. also, this one has the different legstrap hardware that i mentioned in my earlier post.also this harness looks different only because all the adjustments are let all the way out,and the way it was set up for the photo. just a standard nb6/nb8(minus the elastic keepers)

[snowmman 3]

Quote

the picture is reversed.there are adjustments on the leg straps,its just hard to see the way the harness is laid out in the pic. also, this one has the different legstrap hardware that i mentioned in my earlier post.also this harness looks different only because all the adjustments are let all the way out,and the way it was set up for the photo. just a standard nb6/nb8(minus the elastic keepers)

thanks nitro. it's hard finding pics of the older ones. There are some that show up on ebay nowadays surprisingly. I'll keep an eye out for other pics. I hadn't looked at this in a while.

The more modern ebay rig advertised NB6 with 28' canopy.
Do you think the modern 28' canopy fits easier in a NB-6? or would the nylon fabric weight/thickness be about the same as it was back in '71?
I was confused because we talked about it being a hard pull with a 28' canopy...and there it was, right on ebay.
(the more modern rig)

(edit) here it is $1200.
Claims new is $1700??

Note it's May 1995 MFG date
Is this a good hijack rig :)

The same pics that have been posted are here.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/US-Navy-NB6-Parachute_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116QQitemZ150080385359QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ5fPartsQ5fGear
Mills C-9 28 Foot Canopy - Date of MFG May 1995
New, Never Used. In Original Pack
Placed in Service 1/4/07
Parachute Certified 1/4/07
Good for bail-out speeds up to 150 MPH

A Top of the line Backpack Emergency Parachute in New Condition. Very Comfortable to wear ...

[georger 197]

Quote

It seems to me that it would require either a mechanical shovel or significant hydraulic pressure (ala hyd mining) to dislodge clay, and not a simple suction device. Any idea what kind of dredging equipment was used? Sorry if I'm asking a question that's already been answered.

Now we get to the nik of it - there is clay vs "clay".
Likewise bottom sediment including bottom heavy sand, (black sand), other dense elemental stuff, and there is lighter washed sand which virtually floats in a flood and settles 'over' things on a bar.
The dredging must fit into a geological sequence
already in place. Then the softer uncompacted materials erode leaving ...... what was there before.

[snowmman 3]

nice photo work georger.
you're always good with the photoshop.
it really does make you see things that aren't as obvious in the original photo.

We really need the FBI report.

I'm dismayed that Tom thinks one doesn't exist.
Did Ckret see one, or was he quoting "stuff" that exists in everyone's mind?

[snowmman 3]

I'm reading about inorganic particles in soil
they are sorted by particle size

clay: .001 mm. and less
silt: .001 mm. to 0.03 mm
sand .03 mm. to 1. mm
gravel 1. mm. to 32 mm.
stones 32mm and over

This is just one grading.

Could the "clay" settle thru the sand, while everything is in slurry?
(because it's so fine??)

[georger 197]

Quote

377 - Some personality disorders increase the ability to manipulate others. Pychopaths/Sociopaths are a good example. Ted Bundy was known to be very charming, Charles Manson was also very good at it.


Bruce - Given how much off the wall crap has been posted here, suggestions of personality disorders are well within reason. Can you make any good guesses as to what specific disorders and why you think so?

Hat tip to Orange1, too.

So, vat kind o’ disorda do I t’ink ol’ DB had?

Vell, it certainly vasn’t a narcissistic personality disorder, which is perhaps da most common form. T’ose folks need an audience to be narcissistic in front of, although they often do quite well without one, and thereby create one – although it’s rarely the one they hope for, as it’s usually composed of policemen, ambulance drivers and psych ER technicians.

If MKULTRA is involved, DB may have had a very singular kind, unique to the program where his personality was fractured. Also, a lot of pathology might have been overridden by hypnosis, surgery or medications, eg: messages of “you’re doing this for your country, Dan, etc. Maybe his amygdala was surgically de-stim’d – that could get rid of a lot of fear. This is wholly conjecturous on my part.

I’m developing contacts with the folks who were part of the big MKULTRA studies at the Allen Institute in Montreal, and perhaps some inkling about the kinds of personality disorders that MK produced will come from this. I have one person here locally in Pierce County, WA to interview, and I’ll be reaching out again, shortly, to Cathy O’Brien, perhaps the most famous, or best known, survivor of MKULTRA.

But I suspect DB was in a special place, like Fort Detrich. I’m just in the early stages of stirring this pot. Where did smokejumpers and Air America guys go for medical care? That might be a place to look.

But back to the man on the plane. What kinds of clues are there, and what kinds of clinical observations came be made?

For me, a few things stand out. One, his courteousness, ie: “Excuse me, Miss, but you ought to take a look at that note.”

Two, he didn’t sweat. Tosaw says DB exploded briefly with rage when the fueling trucks didn’t get the job done in a timely fashion, but other than that, there was really no anxiety or nervousness displayed in any reports I’ve read. That tells me he was very much “at one” with what he was doing. Possibly confident and secure, little evidence of doubt, and no apparent fear shown as to what awaited him beyond the bottom step of the aft stairs. It could also mean he was detached from his emotions, or didn’t even have any to be detached from.

Three, he was a nice guy, even as Tina probed him for hints of his identity. He seemed in control of the conversation and didn’t reveal anything. He had a high level of mindfulness, I would say. I think Tosaw says that he waved as Tina left.

Four. I sense a dependency in DB. No one thing points to this, but his needing Tina to keep lighting cigarettes comes to mind as a form of neediness.

Five. Would he have blown the plane if he had to? I haven’t heard any commentary that the folks aboard the plane were going to rush him, there was no “Let’s roll,” moment aboard Flight 305, so I would guess that the crew and the FBI at Sea-Tac were at least 50% sure DB needed to be taken seriously. So, DB effectively conveyed that he was willing to kill 40 people in pursuit of his mission? Whew, that’s antisocial.

So, if I had to make a diagnosis, I’d say it was a mix of avoidant, antisocial and dependant.

[snowmman 3]

Georger mumbled:

"ja boot, vas das Coopernik hapt dos nicotene stains
onder his undt fingerz, or vas hist fingerz free from
nicotene blemish@!? Ja? Makes big difference in
psychotropic gestalt, ja?"

This is pretty unreliable I guess, but on page 146 of "The Real McCoy" Agent Jim Theisen from the SLC FBI office is quoted saying:


"Mucklow noticed the first two fingers on his bare right hand. Said they had dark yellow stains"

[georger 197]

Quote

nice photo work georger.
you're always good with the photoshop.
it really does make you see things that aren't as obvious in the original photo.

(edit) wrt "clay" there's a whole spectrum of sand to clay the soil guys use. I remember looking at this cause I had a soil guy out here drilling cores for a project. Paid thru the nose for boilerplate report. They have "sandy clay" "clayey sand" all sorts of bizarro terms across the spectrum.

Reply> True. Like Eskimows and 97 kinds of snow.

Palmer had a huge reputation as a specialist in beach sediments. So when he came to Tina Bar he
had been researching Columbia beach sediments and beach and river front sediments for 30+ years.
He was in fact one of the foremost researchers in this area in the US and the world. That I know.

If he said something was "over" the dredge layer
you almost have to take that as gospel, however
combined with other facts it is difficult (maybe very difficult) to reconcile, for me at least.

I confess to being trully mystified. Maybe others
understand it but I don't. For me, something is
missing. The money cannot be at Tina Bar and
not moving, and not be at Tina Bar and moving,
to still have fragile rubber bands in place, and
fragments lazily sifting around over a remnant of
$5800 left which you know was more money ...

it just does not hang together.

... all coming down river just before the find during
a dry year.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Right.

And add the new data.

That we have someone who is a reasonable scientist, and believes he's discovered something that gives him some strong views on what happened at Tena Bar.
And the FBI doesn't want him to disclose some archive material till he publishes his paper.

(crime waits for scientific paper publishing deadlines?)

It all doesn't make sense.

How does Tom know he's correct?
He doesn't even think there's a Tina Bar Clay Report???

[georger 197]

Quote

Georger mumbled:

"ja boot, vas das Coopernik hapt dos nicotene stains
onder his undt fingerz, or vas hist fingerz free from
nicotene blemish@!? Ja? Makes big difference in
psychotropic gestalt, ja?"

This is pretty unreliable I guess, but on page 146 of "The Real McCoy" Agent Jim Theisen from the SLC FBI office is quoted saying:


"Mucklow noticed the first two fingers on his bare right hand. Said they had dark yellow stains"

so, he was a chain smoker., nervous internalising type, calm exterior, inner tourmoil depressive
personality disorder near the end of his rope.
Decided it was worth the risk. So he did target
the flight. Planned ahead. Saw an opportunity.
No narcissist. Desperate.

Might as well draw up a profile of half the people
working in WA at the time.

Why do journalists always think they have found something new? Guess its the salesman in them.

[snowmman 3]

"Why do journalists always think they have found something new? Guess its the salesman in them. "

Exactly. Cooper has always been about what people wanted to see. So journalists write the story people want to read.


At least it seems that way.

He's less "everyman" than he's "whatever you want to see"

[georger 197]

Quote

"Why do journalists always think they have found something new? Guess its the salesman in them. "

Exactly. Cooper has always been about what people wanted to see. So journalists write the story people want to read.


At least it seems that way.

He's less "everyman" than he's "whatever you want to see"

Safe something about the money find being surrounded by garbage. Not that garbage was in
with the money? Made me wonder if there was a
regular garbage route to Tina Bar, from some known
source (Chi Li's Eggroll factory)? Maybe the money
followed the same route and was snagged up in
similar garbage? (at another date?)

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

As to your question on Duane Webber. Ralph does not believe he was cooper.

YOU do not answer questions for Ralph H. You are not Ralph H.

No, of course he isn't, but there seem to be enough people backing up the fact that he knows Himmelsbach very well, and an inference that H is even reading this forum. That is why I asked the question (and thank you, Jerry, for answering).

Tell me Jo, if he had said H does think Duane was Cooper, would you have had the same highly antagonistic response?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

Quote

I did post a picture of a counterfeit Cooper bill, with a correct serial number. And a Seattle FBI business card with Sluggo's name on it. Lots of stuff.

We want more of that excellent Photoshop humor Snow. What's next?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

Quote

Does the DBC thread bring out everyone's inner whackiness?? (including me)

You have nailed it Snow. That was the whole point of the CIA sponsored NORJACK experiment: to see if they could create obsessive behavior in otherwise normal people.

What has astounded the designers of the experiment is the duration of the "DBC effect."

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

Does the DBC thread bring out everyone's inner whackiness?? (including me)

You have nailed it Snow. That was the whole point of the CIA sponsored NORJACK experiment: to see if they could create obsessive behavior in otherwise normal people.

What has astounded the designers of the experiment is the duration of the "DBC effect."

377

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

Quote

I confess to being trully mystified. Maybe others
understand it but I don't. For me, something is
missing. The money cannot be at Tina Bar and
not moving, and not be at Tina Bar and moving,
to still have fragile rubber bands in place, and
fragments lazily sifting around over a remnant of
$5800 left which you know was more money ...

it just does not hang together.

... all coming down river just before the find during
a dry year.

Me too Georger. The rubber band condition appears to argue against the expert's conclusions about how and when the money got to Tena Bar. Am I missing something? I STILL smell a rat in the money find, just a hunch.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

Quote

Four. I sense a dependency in DB. No one thing points to this, but his needing Tina to keep lighting cigarettes comes to mind as a form of neediness.

Naah. You are too quick to assign a psych diagnosis to what could be normal behavior in a subset of the population.

That behavior just means Cooper was likely a skydiver. Jumpers will use ANY excuse to get an attractive flight attendant to interact with them. I wouldn't put it past some of them to fake a heart attack if the stew was as cute as Tina and they had slammed down a few shots.

If you had ever been on a scheduled airline flight with a bunch a skydivers, like a flight to Quincy Illinois back in the peak of the WFFC years, you'd know exactly what I mean.

Guru, Nitrochute, any other old timers... can I get an "AMEN" ?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[nitrochute 2]

that last photo is of an airforce b12. harness appears to be a b4 because its olive drab.

[snowmman 3]

nitrochute gave me some good info and it reminded me that there is still the possibility that Cooper jumped with a NB-8.

I read recently in one of the Cooper books, a mention of NB-8, so this recent talk jiggled my memory.

Also, Galen Cook apparently talked to Cossey, and says that Cossey was "pretty sure" the rig used by Cooper was a NB-8.

Apparently Cossey told Tosaw way back that it was a NB-8 also.

Carr says it was a NB-6.

It would really be interesting to see the report that says it was a NB-6.

If Cossey ever said he was "pretty sure" it was an NB-8, then where did the FBI get NB-6 from? Some initial interview? Could there be errors? Could Cossey have misremembered?

Nitrochute might be able to prove the 28' in a NB-6 is really bad, but we really, really have to resolve this issue.

NB-6 or NB-8.

If NB-6, where's the report that says that?

(edit) Nitro mentioned that the ebay item could be mislabelled.
Obviously we can't see the 28' canopy.

(edit) thanks for the air force b12 ID, nitro. Man you're amazing.