DB Cooper

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Orange1 said:

Quote

Sluggo, you weren't around at the beginning of the last thread.

I've been around since Moby Dick was a minnow.

With my interest in NORJAK, I have read all of every thread on every forum that a search engine will locate. I even have copies of some that are no longer accessible on the internet.

I've read all the stories (articles), all the claims, and all the rants and raves. I have a pile of background information on all the suspects, some who have gone public (or had someone go public after their death) and some who have made statements in private.

I (personally) am of the belief that everyone has a story to tell. If I listen to their story, it makes them happy, it doesn’t hurt me, and I always learn something.

There are other people that feel that listening to a story is only worthwhile if you agree with the story’s conclusions. For those people, listening is like “dancing with a pig,” it gets them all dirty and annoys the pig.

I’m glad there is such a variety of flowers in nature’s garden.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I (personally) am of the belief that everyone has a story to tell. If I listen to their story, it makes them happy, it doesn’t hurt me, and I always learn something.

There are other people that feel that listening to a story is only worthwhile if you agree with the story’s conclusions. For those people, listening is like “dancing with a pig,” it gets them all dirty and annoys the pig.

I’m glad there is such a variety of flowers in nature’s garden.

Sluggo_Monster

Yup, some of those "flowers" like coherent /cogent arguments, or actual evidence and stuff like that that makes sense in a story - in other words, you will happily agree with a conclusion if it makes sense. I wonder, are you talking about Jo's vehement responses to other suspects etc when you say "There are other people that feel that listening to a story is only worthwhile if you agree with the story’s conclusions." I suspect not, but it's a perfect description.

My working life consists of sorting the wheat from the chaff when it comes to "stories" - arguments, theories, whatever, need to be backed up with a solid line of reasoning and make sense. Even if they are "unproveable" they should at the very least be internally consistent arguments that fit with known facts. I have no qualms with a preconceived notion being challenged or changed. Sadly, I admit to being one of those who originally did actually think Duane might have been Cooper (as you will know if you indeed have been around since the beginning of the last thread), until most everything I've seen here has changed my thinking on that.

I'm still eagerly waiting for a suspect to be presented who fits the facts of the case.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Hey Sluggo, I know this is OT, but I couldn't help responding to your offhand mention of the Mars Climate Orbiter problem.

Like your wind direction example, the metric vs english issue, is actually just a symptom of the real issue(s). Although NASA was forced to call it "root cause" because of their procedures.

On your nuke wind direction thing, I immediately thought "well obviously the "system" that relied on that chart had never been tested". I didn't really care what was on the chart.

NASA actually did a pretty nice investigation of the full set of causes. The list of eight contributing causes is more useful than that final metric vs english thing.

phase 1 report available here:
http://www.space.com/media/mco_report.pdf

After reading that, you could argue that the real issues were too small an organization...i.e. they used some stuff without proper verification or testing of feedback...they were understaffed etc. Or just not a good enough organization for the problem they were trying to solve. But it was a hard problem, so no second guessing by me.

People blame big organizations wrongly sometimes, I think. People like to think big things can be accomplished with small groups, but sometimes you need big organizations. Or excellently performing small groups. Any time you have more than 1 person it's a group. So groups are inherent. And they can scale well.

The numbers they used were wrong by a factor of ~4. There's always reasons why wrong numbers can be generated. The real issues are not the bad numbers, but why they weren't caught.

I can extend this further, to say why I really don't care if I inject "static" or not into this discussion. If the process is robust, it rejects static correctly. If we're worried about static, then we should instead be worried about the process. (because it's untested).

Have you been reading what the FBI did on the sequencing of all the mutated anthrax colonies. Gotta say, it sure seems like the FBI guys got their shit together on that investigation. [eventually]

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2008/812/1

Read this somewhere "How come we constantly accuse the government of being incompetent, except when it comes to hiding the details of visiting aliens, who decided it made the most sense to first secretly contact our government"

[georger 197]

I've been around since Moby Dick was a minnow.

With my interest in NORJAK, I have read all of every thread on every forum that a search engine will locate. I even have copies of some that are no longer accessible on the internet.


NEED YOUR HELP - REPLY>

Sluggo, tell me what Tom Bohan's remarks
mean to you, in terms of V23, (Snowmman/ (H) reported below):

"He quotes a pilot on an airliner behind 305, who said he was flying into head winds (pilot Bohan said: 80 knot winds at 166 degrees, "right on my nose". He was 4 minutes behind, and 4000 ft above, 305) , and also had detailed degree estimates on crosswinds when landing at PDX."

Thanks,
George

[snowmman 3]

two things
- a little dig at Sluggo's claim that he's read everything:
the Da Nang video had already been posted to this thread
In fact, where did Mr. Nuke go?

- for georger and sluggo: Attached are the 4 relevant pages about Bohan's "testimony". While there obviously needs to be some comments about accuracy of his reminiscing, like what year did the discussion with H. happen? plus others...I'll just provide the pages as is.
(attached)

(edit) it also notes that Bohan says he was listening in to "all" of the communications that night. Be interesting to hear what he remembers. Wonder if he was ever interviewed thoroughly.

(edit) also note in bohan 1.jpg a repeat of the claim that additional fragments of the bills were found up to 3 feet under the sand. This was in the initial news articles. I suspect the co-author was quoting from news articles here, although you would have thought H. would proof read it? So who knows. Maybe fragments were found 3 ft under.

We really don't have good info on the money find. It's all contradictory.

(edit) "right on my nose" 166 degrees etc is on top left of bohan 2. But read 1 then 2 for continuity. (all 4 pages are interesting)

(edit) on a different note, there is an interesting description elsewhere in the book of how they flew v23 apparently in 3 aircraft abreast, while searching. I could scan that. I've never seen any description of searching in, or downriver in, the columbia right after 11/24/71 though.
Be nice to know exactly what was done.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

two things
- a little dig at Sluggo's claim that he's read everything: the Da Nang video had already been posted to this thread In fact, where did Mr. Nuke go?

snowmman, georger, Ckret, and All

Snowman,

You got me. I thought you were full of crap, but I went back and looked, there it was. I thought it would have been a year or more ago, but it was just last June. I never saw the video, but after reading the post (5 min ago) I do remember it. I remember the post about Ed Daley even more though.

The only excuse I have is; that time period was when my step-daughter and grandson were here. I would just get on the forum about every two days and read like mad to try to stay up.

So… I’m Em-bare-assed.

Hey, I’ll survive.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Georger,

I guess I’m going to have to send off an order to Amazon.com and buy every “Cooper” book ever published. See how much influence you have had on me? I’m speculating, I’m considering reading “Cooper” books. I’m just damned glad you’re not a skydiver, I don’t want to jump out of an airplane.

Give me some time to digest this Bohan thing (it's all news to me), and I’ll get back to you. If I get sidetracked shoot me a reminder in about three days.

I’m assuming the book this came from is NORJAK by Ralph Himmelsbach.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ckret, (Ckret likes us to bold questions to him)

Did Captain Tom Bohan ever get interviewed? Can you tell us anything about it (if he did)?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

All,

I was just using the wind-direction thing as an example from personal experience, but, it looks like it might have legs. Can anybody think of any other things that could have been misinterpreted or missed altogether.

I have expressed previously that I thought Cooper might have been somewhat of a magician or illusionist (misdirecting witness’ attention). I think a lot of people took the terms (magician and illusionist) too literally. What I mean is, can you think of things that he might have done to have LE looking in the wrong place. Or, some kind of systematic error that could have caused them to look where he wasn’t.

Thanks to all,

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[n467us 0]

Slug... what have I missed? What is this photo of the two guys??

[georger 197]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Georger,

I guess I’m going to have to send off an order to Amazon.com and buy every “Cooper” book ever published. See how much influence you have had on me? I’m speculating, I’m considering reading “Cooper” books. I’m just damned glad you’re not a skydiver, I don’t want to jump out of an airplane.

Give me some time to digest this Bohan thing (it's all news to me), and I’ll get back to you. If I get sidetracked shoot me a reminder in about three days.

I’m assuming the book this came from is NORJAK by Ralph Himmelsbach.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

REPLY> Ive never read H's book either! embarrassed to say. Thanks ...

George

[georger 197]

Quote

two things
- a little dig at Sluggo's claim that he's read everything:
the Da Nang video had already been posted to this thread
In fact, where did Mr. Nuke go?

- for georger and sluggo: Attached are the 4 relevant pages about Bohan's "testimony". While there obviously needs to be some comments about accuracy of his reminiscing, like what year did the discussion with H. happen? plus others...I'll just provide the pages as is.
(attached)

(edit) it also notes that Bohan says he was listening in to "all" of the communications that night. Be interesting to hear what he remembers. Wonder if he was ever interviewed thoroughly.

(edit) also note in bohan 1.jpg a repeat of the claim that additional fragments of the bills were found up to 3 feet under the sand. This was in the initial news articles. I suspect the co-author was quoting from news articles here, although you would have thought H. would proof read it? So who knows. Maybe fragments were found 3 ft under.

We really don't have good info on the money find. It's all contradictory.

(edit) "right on my nose" 166 degrees etc is on top left of bohan 2. But read 1 then 2 for continuity. (all 4 pages are interesting)

(edit) on a different note, there is an interesting description elsewhere in the book of how they flew v23 apparently in 3 aircraft abreast, while searching. I could scan that. I've never seen any description of searching in, or downriver in, the columbia right after 11/24/71 though.
Be nice to know exactly what was done.

REPLY> You just got Gold. Congrats! Any relation to
Mr. Phelps?

George

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Slug... what have I missed? What is this photo of the two guys??

hi n467us.

us non-skydivers got to show we can layer some weird kind of inside baseball jokes sometimes, huh? so we don't always seem like total losers? Actually it does make us seem like total losers now that I think of it.

I can't even begin to explain it. I'll have to leave to sluggo, or maybe jo! A good example of cross-agency cooperation on the thread!

See, any fool can google some text. It takes a real psychotic to recognize conspiracy images on demand!

[snowmman 3]

I wanted to post these from Norjak, cause I thought they were a little better than the pdf Ckret posted, and the color snaps we have from the video.

I think you can see the sled on the stairs in the first photo. Only reason the stairs are fully down I guess.

No new info here, just possibly better shots.

The stair fabric no longer looks tattered. They must have fixed them between Reno and the test? And I guess the fabric doesn't "instantly" tatter...since they look okay in the first photo.

(edit) made me think of the question: the wind turbulence during the test may not have matched the winds present during Cooper's flight. Shouldn't matter though.

[skyjack71 0]

That's dumb you know that is Robertson - but not the man in the other photo and the man with him who was never named - well, I know who both men were in that well known photo of 1963 and I have known for yrs. I believe I posted the picture yrs ago and tried to tell you guys what I knew - but I just got laughed at as always.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

I just wanted to show how the Norjak book created or propagated the myth that the CIA actually used 727's for airdrops in Vietnam. I left two pages in the scan because there's other interesting stuff.

But the myth (which we all know is keying off of the reference to boxes down the stairs in the transcripts) is on the 2nd page, 4th paragraph up from the bottom.

I have no idea why they would put that in the book. I suspect they were guessing based on the transcript also. Maybe it shows that the FBI was operating using under-investigated myths? I don't know.

There's been a lot of stuff published on this thread on all the ownerships/uses of the 727's that Air America actually bought/used. I agree with 377 on this..there's no evidence that says 727s were ever used for air drops. Now there is stuff that says Air America may have "asked about it" when they put their orders in. And Ckret seems to have confirmed testing by Boeing.

But Norjak seems to be wrong here in saying they actually occurred.

So I do read Norjak with an analytical eye, aware that it was co-authored by a non-FBI person, who may have done most of the work?

(edit) I just laughed re-reading it. The phrase "the hard-edged skyjacker" was used. I really wonder how much H. liked this notion of macho-man Cooper for the profile.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

I just wanted to show how the Norjack book created or propagated the myth that the CIA actually used 727's for airdrops in Vietnam. I left two pages in the scan because there's other interesting stuff.

That is your opinion - just because it was never a known factor - but there were air drop by 727's in Vietnam. The FBI and CIA - have been known to lie to the public - today they would rather it just go away.
----------------------------------

Quote

I have no idea why they would put that in the book. I suspect they were guessing based on the transcript also. Maybe it shows that the FBI was operating using underinvestigated myths? I don't know.

You must work for the CIA or one of its covert groups or you would never MAKE a statement like that. I really thought you were smarter than that - if something was done under the table it is not made public.
-------------------------------------

Quote

There's no evidence that says 727's were ever used for air drops.

Duane's own brother worked for Boeing and I am not sure of what he did - but he had the schematics to the plans. He stated that they were used in Viet Nam to drop supplies...among other things just as Himmelsbach did - Perhaps someone needs to go to the Horses Mouth...before you proclaim it a Myth. Not everything is on line - somethings are still just in the government files.

Did you ever think that when this was done - that maybe our armed services were in a place they weren't supposed to be and for this to be admitted even at this late of a date would create distrust. Not everything our government has done was made public in the past and some of it will never be.

You can be assured that it was indeed mentioned by the CIA or others when they where looking for Cooper. I have also heard this verbally - from two sources and not just in Himmelsbach's book.

One was a high ranking official at one of our esteemed bases many eons ago. Duane's brother was an advisor for Boeing with the armed service during war time, but I believe that was before Vietnam...but remember he worked for Boeing for many yrs. I am surprised the FBI has NEVER investigated exactly what he did with Boeing or what his wartime involvement was. They have also never investigated Roach.

One historian spoke with me yrs ago - but suddenly developed amnesia - he didn't remember our conversation...and didn't remember me. I was asked to call him at an unmonitored number. He's there and secretive, he's not there, they never heard of him, he is no longer there --- did he retire or move on up in rank? If he was a Colonel just how much higher could he go as a historian - maybe Washington?//!!!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Quote

You must work for the CIA or one of its covert groups or you would never MAKE a statement like that. I really thought you were smarter than that - if something was done under the table it is not made public.

Hi Jo, there's been some related concern you may have found out what info Kissinger got from the Vinh wiretaps.

http://www.vhpa.org/stories/AAblack.pdf

Hey 377, if you've not already aware of this story, it's really interesting. Apparently all true? (I've found multiple confirmations). Note the FLIR stuff and SU-50's.

Jo: I've decided that the people who think they're being nice to you, are actually the opposite, in terms of what's good. That's my rationale, right or wrong.

(edit) I love the mention that that the SU-50's need 1/4 to 1/2 moon to work. A real 305 psychotic will remember the phase of the moon on 11/24/71 :) See 377! JOKE!

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Hmmmmm..... Reverse 26 - Symetrical or ROT-13-1?

You sure you don't work for NSA?

Ipguum_Omnihwj

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Mr.Nuke 0]

Quote

In fact, where did Mr. Nuke go?

I'm still around. The discussion just drifted away from aviation for a while.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Hmmmmm..... Reverse 26 - Symetrical or ROT-13-1?

You sure you don't work for NSA?

Ipguum_Omnihwj

:) Sluggo can be funny too!

Hey Jo, if you weren't making a joke, then you should muse on your inability to make critical decisions on information presented to you, and how that might apply to other decisions you make, when confronted with information. Seriously.

Hey that story about the Hughes 500P really does appear to be true. I highly doubt they got the wiretaps to work though...seems just too hard. But who knows.

I guess my point is that Vietnam is far enough away that we can be reasonably confident most info is now available.

Back in the thread, I posted detailed research that had been done on the exact 727s Air America bought and where they ended up. We talked about other airdrops that CIA actually did do, with other planes.

My point: when you look at everything, we should bin "727 airdrops in Vietnam" as myth. I referenced the Boeing history book where apparently the guys at Air America asked Boeing about air drops before their purchase (I've not read that book, so that's secondhand).

All in all, it's important to think about how the FBI may have been operating under some myths at the time. Also: that Norjak was part of the mythology process. Sluggo knocks news articles a bunch, but note the FBI is imperfect also.

(edit) And I'm really curious about money fragments 3 feet under the sand. That was in news reports (and Norjak, as posted.) But the dig site was so chaotic (I posted the later photos of backhoe at the site) that maybe fragments just "fell" into a deeper hole? Who knows.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,

I probably shouldn’t get into this, if fact I choose not to. But since I had this link laying around for another issue, I thought I’d post it. It may have been posted before, but it’s easier to re-post than search.

This link is from the University of Texas at Dallas, Library and is liberally referenced. It seems to confirm that no 727s were used by “Air America” for any reason other than Military Air Cargo (MAC) and Civil Air Transport (CAT) contracted missions.

That is all well and good. But who is to say that Air America was the only organization flying covert missions in Cambodia or other border countries?

I’m not taking a position on whether the CIA used 727s to drop humanitarian cargo, troops, weapons, or covert operatives during the Viet Nam era. But, I still think it was possibly true.

We could argue this for weeks, but, I don’t think the proof is unclassified.

Also, I don’t see the difference in “the CIA did” and “the CIA knew they could.” It’s all the same as it applies to NORJAK (IMHO).

Now, I’m going to spend a day or two trying to understand the "Contenential Airways Captain Tom Bohan" issue. Is there anything in “NORJAK" (the book) footnotes or endnotes that gives a flight number for Capt. Bohan’s flight?

And I would like to steer away from the “Robertson” issue. That’s what Sluggo gets for having fun with speculation. So, I should have never gone the “2, 4, 6, 8, I am going to Spec – U – Late” route. I guess I’ll learn someday.

This is what I tried to convey to georger (unsuccessfully). If we were all in a room, sitting around a table, our facial expressions and voice inflection would help us to understand each other. All that is lost in a forum post.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 21]

I worked at Hughes and had heard about all sorts of stuff made for special missions. I had heard about the quiet one but not its wiretap mission. We did some really advanced work in night vision systems, way ahead of what most thought the state of the art was.

I am a real aviation history nut and have some good connections in that area. I have found no evidence that 727s did airdrops in Viet Nam and I looked hard. It would have been a very poor choice given the other far more suitable aviation assets available in the area.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

All in all, it's important to think about how the FBI may have been operating under some myths at the time. Also: that Norjak was part of the mythology process. Sluggo knocks news articles a bunch, but note the FBI is imperfect also.

(edit) And I'm really curious about money fragments 3 feet under the sand. That was in news reports (and Norjak, as posted.) But the dig site was so chaotic (I posted the later photos of backhoe at the site) that maybe fragments just "fell" into a deeper hole? Who knows.

[georger 197]

Quote

snowmman,

I probably shouldn’t get into this, if fact I choose not to. But since I had this link laying around for another issue, I thought I’d post it. It may have been posted before, but it’s easier to re-post than search.

This link is from the University of Texas at Dallas, Library and is liberally referenced. It seems to confirm that no 727s were used by “Air America” for any reason other than Military Air Cargo (MAC) and Civil Air Transport (CAT) contracted missions.

That is all well and good. But who is to say that Air America was the only organization flying covert missions in Cambodia or other border countries?

I’m not taking a position on whether the CIA used 727s to drop humanitarian cargo, troops, weapons, or covert operatives during the Viet Nam era. But, I still think it was possibly true.

We could argue this for weeks, but, I don’t think the proof is unclassified.

Also, I don’t see the difference in “the CIA did” and “the CIA knew they could.” It’s all the same as it applies to NORJAK (IMHO).

Now, I’m going to spend a day or two trying to understand the "Contenential Airways Captain Tom Bohan" issue. Is there anything in “NORJAK" (the book) footnotes or endnotes that gives a flight number for Capt. Bohan’s flight?

And I would like to steer away from the “Robertson” issue. That’s what Sluggo gets for having fun with speculation. So, I should have never gone the “2, 4, 6, 8, I am going to Spec – U – Late” route. I guess I’ll learn someday.

This is what I tried to convey to georger (unsuccessfully). If we were all in a room, sitting around a table, our facial expressions and voice inflection would help us to understand each other. All that is lost in a forum post.

Sluggo_Monster[/reply

REPLY: I think in Vietnam, anything that could be used for some purpose, got used. If you could slide
anomo boxes off the back of a flying mule, it happened somewhere, sometime. I do think its a
safe bet the 366th never used the 727 to chase
Migs! (HI). Everything used in a military environment has capability testing - options are tested and used,

• Quote

[georger 197]

Quote

I worked at Hughes and had heard about all sorts of stuff made for special missions. I had heard about the quiet one but not its wiretap mission. We did some really advanced work in night vision systems, way ahead of what most thought the state of the art was.

I am a real aviation history nut and have some good connections in that area. I have found no evidence that 727s did airdrops in Viet Nam and I looked hard. It would have been a very poor choice given the other far more suitable aviation assets available in the area.

377

REPLY: Ok let me get specific. During the TET offensive wasnt just about anything that could carry
a box sent up north to do drops? Granted, the 727
isnt exactly a good cargo plane but in a pinch ...

Was there a prohibition?

[skyjack71 0]

Do you remember all of the research we did after I posted Duane's work history and SS information? Remember that the Wife of the Times had told me that Duane worked for San Diego Air Craft and Southern Air.

I have gone back to my notes regarding phone calls with the ex-wife and in 1968 she mentions being in Arizona - I have a note regarding Kansas - then Boulder and then Arizona. She is talking about N.Orleans in this same conversation. This conversation took place in 1997 or 1998. The name Lanham or Lanaman came up.

Also there is a mention of "before he got caught when (word not readable) Phonix, Az.

Another note says "Had lots of money in 1971 when they got "back" to S.C." These notes were written while she rambled on the phone - at 2 or 3 AM my time.
Up until 2001 I took her calls when ever she called - it meant she wanted to talk and I would call her back on my nickel since she was living off of SS. I sometimes had to be at work by 9AM - if I had floor or a meeting otherwise my schedule was flexible.

Next page states "Before leaving Phonix Az. when they went back to Cleveland and he got caught." On the run for 1 yr before he got caught - she stayed in Phonix Az.
This would be 1965 approx.but the only problem I find with that is that on his Jefferson file it indicates she has a N. Orleans address.

He buys a new car to go to AZ. While there he leaves her and says he has to go to CA. to get some of his inheritance (?).

She jumps to the 70's Mentions friend of Duane's got out of Emory. Doesn't give his name.

1971 Bought Mobile home and paid Cash for it. Spent money - went to Miami going to by sea-going-boat / had the cash money for it - she wouldn''t let him - stayed at the best places. Then she is back talking about Kansas.

Both Duane and his wife talked about their going to CA, but there is only one time span I can put them in CA for a couple of months - this is even more puzzling...but I won't go into that at this time.

The reason I am posting these notes is that Southern Air Transport - where was it located and what yrs did all of that stuff go on about the 727's. Was it all overseas or any of it in the states.
This mention of Souther Air Transport got my attention.

I don't even know where they are located or if "John Collins" had anything to do with them - but she was specific on Southern Air in 2 conversations.

I am still trying to find information on this Ed Horan and hope WA and ID which is where Ed said he knew Duane from will at least be one question I can get answered when I go to WA.

AGENT CARR - where are those darn cigarette butts - LOST, in RENO or in WASH. That make 3 stories about the butts. WHICH ONE IS TRUE?

.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Air_Transport

SAT did lots of CIA related flying but to my knowledge did not have 727s in their fleet. With Herks (C -130/L-100) available, a 727 would be a terrible choice for airdrops. Palletized air drop cargo needs a wide door which the 727 does not come even close to having. Roller floors, static line cabin cable, and other amenities used in air drops were not normally found or easily fitted on passenger 727s. Also, the stair would be a potential strike point for exiting cargo.

For dropping people a 727 is just a really poor choice given the other aircraft available in Viet Nam at that time. C 130s were very good for both missions and there were plenty around.

Somewhere on this website there are posts by guys who did recon jumps in SE Asia during the Viet Nam war. These were all either helo jumps or Herk jumps.

All sorts of formerly classified stuff about Nam has been released. Why would the use of 727s as jumpships be so secret if it really occurred? Sure, they could have been used, but why would they? No need to masquerade as a civil airliner in Nam. Very ill suited for serious cargo drop work. Plenty of better planes available that required zero or minor conversion work: C 130, C 123, C 47, C 54, C 97, C 133 etc.

BTW, the worlds last flyable C 133 is making its final flight from AK to Travis AFB on or about August 29th where it will become a static display at the base museum. This plane looks like a C 130 on mega steroids.

http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/c133bcargomaster/home.html

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.