DB Cooper

[georger 197]

14 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The term bundle is informal, packet, pack, flat or strap are banking terms for a grouping of 100 bills.. Bundle is a general term for a group,, packet means 100 bills.

Brian has used the term packet before.. bundle isn't necessarily wrong, it is just less accurate and informal.

It doesn't really matter if the packets were bound paper or rubber or both. I have told you this before. The point is the packets were rubber banded in bundles when given to Cooper.. Brian has never before specifically said all three individual packets had rubber bands each.. His statements were always vague...

Brian's recall about the rubber bands is likely incorrect. Tosaw said one packet had no rubber bands. He was heavily involved with Brian and the money at the time.

The evidence indicates paper straps.

Himmelsbach said straps. The bank guy said straps.. Tina,, etc..

Could some packets have paper and rubber bands, maybe, but irrelevant.

The rubber bands were not "intact" as described, that sounds like an exaggeration. The size of the bills was less than 50%, the rubber bands could not be attached to over 50% of the missing bill area.. Brian also said many times the rubber bands crumbled or turned to dust when touched/picked up. There is no way the rubber bands were fully intact around all three packets.

The short bundle could not have had rubber bands on the top.

 

Think this through... forget about paper vs rubber bands for now..

Money was given to Cooper in packets of 100 bills..  =$2000 per packet.

"Bundles" were randomized in count and rubber banded. To look hastily prepared.

3 packets of $2000 were found on TBAR (one was a little short).

The FBI stated the money was in the same order and packaging as given to Cooper.

The FBI had the order of the bills from the micro.

The FBI said the TBAR money was from one bundle.

 

So, if the "bundles" were randomized in count, it wasn't the packets of 100 that were randomized and rubber banded, it had to be the bundles of packets that was randomized in count. Normally they are in 5 packets per bundle.

This is what Carr got wrong before, he stated that each of the 3 "bundles" found on TBAR were randomized in count and therefor rubber banded. He conflated the terms bundles with packets. It could not have been the packets, it had to be the bundles of packets. 

The packets were 100 bills each in $2000, not randomized in count, and the bundles of packets were randomized and rubber banded, 3, 4 or 5 packets per bundle.

 

That is the take away, paper vs rubber banded packets is largely irrelevant.

The money arrived on TBAR as one rubber banded bundle of several packets.. likely 3 packets, but maybe more.

 

How do you get "intact" rubber bands that turned to dust around all 3 heavily eroded packets including a short one. There is less than 50% of the surface area left, top and bottom. 

 

The conventional thinking was that the money arrived on TBAR as 3 separate packets... and the means by which it could arrive like that is very limited.  This is very unlikely based on the evidence. It most likely arrived as one rubber banded bundle...  that is what the evidence indicates regardless of Brian's memory.

 

The bands were not intact. Impossible. They were remnants of bands which is the only possibility.  I dont know what you mean by ' money arrived on TBAR as 3 separate packets' ?  The wad of money was together, I think, but came out or was pulled out in three primary groups. There is no indication that those 3 groups were three distinct bundles just that the money was pulled out in 3 parts.  Everything was put in a sandwich bag and it was at home that the total sorted out as socalled 'bundles' - each bundle defined by bills with band remnants on them, as Brian posts it. But then even that pseudo order was destroyed as the cleaning process went forward. The cleaning process left exactly what you see in the FBI press photo - groups of money the Ingrams delivered in another sandwich bag.

The Ingram find did not come out of the ground with labels and instructions on it!

I am not sure what Brian remembers or thinks he remembers after years of talking to other people except that his mother has played a primary role in Brian's current memory of everything. I wouldnt be surprised to find out that Pat and Harold themselves tried to sort this all out after the fact ......  with all kinds of people asking them questions or making comments not the least of which would have been Tosaw who had a personal stake in the whole matter.

Brian's memory may be a collective memory born of years of people talking and trying to reconstruct everything.

The only person who might remember what she saw is Tina Mucklow but nobody seems to want to ask her! I find that totally bizarre and strange!  As crazy as the 'divorce trial' that split up the found Cooper money between three competing parties sending primary evidence in the Cooper case to the far ends of the Earth and God only knows where never to be recoverable again! Brian should have been given a reward without any strings attached! Globe Loan should have been told to wait. The Fed Govt should have been made custodian of the found money.  And Mr. Tosaw should have been sent home ....  

Edited September 22, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

11 hours ago, georger said:

The bands were not intact. Impossible. They were remnants of bands which is the only possibility.  I dont know what you mean by ' money arrived on TBAR as 3 separate packets' ?  The wad of money was together, I think, but came out or was pulled out in three primary groups. There is no indication that those 3 groups were three distinct bundles just that the money was pulled out in 3 parts.  Everything was put in a sandwich bag and it was at home that the total sorted out as socalled 'bundles' - each bundle defined by bills with band remnants on them, as Brian posts it. But then even that pseudo order was destroyed as the cleaning process went forward. The cleaning process left exactly what you see in the FBI press photo - groups of money the Ingrams delivered in another sandwich bag.

The Ingram find did not come out of the ground with labels and instructions on it!

I am not sure what Brian remembers or thinks he remembers after years of talking to other people except that his mother has played a primary role in Brian's current memory of everything. I wouldnt be surprised to find out that Pat and Harold themselves tried to sort this all out after the fact ......  with all kinds of people asking them questions or making comments not the least of which would have been Tosaw who had a personal stake in the whole matter.

Brian's memory may be a collective memory born of years of people talking and trying to reconstruct everything.

The only person who might remember what she saw is Tina Mucklow but nobody seems to want to ask her! I find that totally bizarre and strange!  As crazy as the 'divorce trial' that split up the found Cooper money between three competing parties sending primary evidence in the Cooper case to the far ends of the Earth and God only knows where never to be recoverable again! Brian should have been given a reward without any strings attached! Globe Loan should have been told to wait. The Fed Govt should have been made custodian of the found money.  And Mr. Tosaw should have been sent home ....  

The quotes for the rubber bands was that they were "intact"...  that was an exaggeration and misleading.

There were 3 separate packets of 100 bills each found close/touching (one packet a few short)...  the dominant narrative in the Vortex was that the three packets arrived individually but were found together. That would mean they were placed there or arrived in a container. How could three separate packets arrive and be together? However, the evidence indicates the packets were rubber banded into a single bundle. As the rubber bands deteriorated the packets would fall slightly apart but still together and touching..

The FBI knows how the money was packaged,, they even stated in a news report that only them and the hijacker knows indicating it was info being held back..  there was no need to ask Tina.

So, if the packets were given to Cooper in a single rubber banded  bundle and they arrived as a single bundle then that changes the means by which they could have arrived. It could have been a single bundle that came from the river..  

Like Chaucer said,, we just don't know how many packets were in the bundle... 3, 4 or 5?  I lean toward 3 because only 3 were found, less than $6000 and two packets had rubber band frags. 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by FLYJACK

[georger 197]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The quotes for the rubber bands was that they were "intact"...  that was an exaggeration and misleading.

There were 3 separate packets of 100 bills each found close/touching (one packet a few short)...  the dominant narrative in the Vortex was that the three packets arrived individually but were found together. That would mean they were placed there or arrived in a container. How could three separate packets arrive and be together? However, the evidence indicates the packets were rubber banded into a single bundle. As the rubber bands deteriorated the packets would fall slightly apart but still together and touching..

The FBI knows how the money was packaged,, they even stated in a news report that only them and the hijacker knows indicating it was info being held back..  there was no need to ask Tina.

So, if the packets were given to Cooper in a single rubber banded  bundle and they arrived as a single bundle then that changes the means by which they could have arrived. It could have been a single bundle that came from the river..  

Like Chaucer said,, we just don't know how many packets were in the bundle... 3, 4 or 5?  I lean toward 3 because only 3 were found, less than $6000 and two packets had rubber band frags. 

 

My belief is the money probably arrived on TBar via an event that also buried it. Because nobody saw money at Tena Bar until the Ingram find and that did not happen because the Ingrams saw it, but because Brian and Denise were digging in the sand, as kids do. It was the kids moving sand around that exposed something curious - 'hey Daddy come and see!'. 

There are no credible accounts of anyone seeing money anywhere on Tena Bar at any time (1971-1980) prior to the Ingram digging. That leaves dredging, a flood, intentional burial, ... on a sandbar visited daily by thousands of people over the years?  

No tests were run to try and determine when the money was removed from exposure to the atmosphere by burial, to estimate a date when the money got buried. It has been so many years since, that such tests cannot be run with any degree of accuracy!

Edited September 22, 2023 by georger

[c99acer 6]

2 hours ago, georger said:

My belief is the money probably arrived on TBar via an event that also buried it. Because nobody saw money at Tena Bar until the Ingram find and that did not happen because the Ingrams saw it, but because Brian and Denise were digging in the sand,

One other witness besides Tina can give answers to the money issue. Maybe not on how the packets were wrapped, but Harold Dwayne Ingram gives away what happened on the beach that day - See minute 62 of episode 1 from 2016 History Channel series. Also in the Colbert book, The Last Master Outlaw... [page 188] ..."not there, see them two little sticks right there" after young Brian began to clear his initial location for the fire. So yes, it arrived on Tena Bar via the same event (person) that also buried it and marked with two sticks! 

[CooperNWO305 146]

14 hours ago, c99acer said:

One other witness besides Tina can give answers to the money issue. Maybe not on how the packets were wrapped, but Harold Dwayne Ingram gives away what happened on the beach that day - See minute 62 of episode 1 from 2016 History Channel series. Also in the Colbert book, The Last Master Outlaw... [page 188] ..."not there, see them two little sticks right there" after young Brian began to clear his initial location for the fire. So yes, it arrived on Tena Bar via the same event (person) that also buried it and marked with two sticks! 

When do you think it was buried? 

[FLYJACK 654]

18 hours ago, georger said:

My belief is the money probably arrived on TBar via an event that also buried it. Because nobody saw money at Tena Bar until the Ingram find and that did not happen because the Ingrams saw it, but because Brian and Denise were digging in the sand, as kids do. It was the kids moving sand around that exposed something curious - 'hey Daddy come and see!'. 

There are no credible accounts of anyone seeing money anywhere on Tena Bar at any time (1971-1980) prior to the Ingram digging. That leaves dredging, a flood, intentional burial, ... on a sandbar visited daily by thousands of people over the years?  

No tests were run to try and determine when the money was removed from exposure to the atmosphere by burial, to estimate a date when the money got buried. It has been so many years since, that such tests cannot be run with any degree of accuracy!

There are infinite theories... and TBAR will never be solved.

My top 3 theories all have the a single bundle of packets going into the River in Spring between 72-79, the money tumbles/rolls along the sandy bottom to its find spot which is underwater effectively being the bottom of the River at that time. The River recedes and money is buried in a debris layer...  

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

There are infinite theories... and TBAR will never be solved.

My top 3 theories all have the a single bundle of packets going into the River in Spring between 72-79, the money tumbles/rolls along the sandy bottom to its find spot which is underwater effectively being the bottom of the River at that time. The River recedes and money is buried in a debris layer...  

FlyJack, you have a couple of points correct but Georger will never believe it.

As has been pointed out on this site and Shutter's site for about the last 14 years, the money found at Tena Bar had to start its journey at a higher elevation than Tena Bar (and I don't mean the airliner).

In all probability, the money found at Tena Bar was still in a damaged money bag, and probably attached to what was left of Cooper's skeletal remains and the parachute equipment when it was deposited at the location where it was later found.  The money came out of the bag, but the rest of Cooper and the parachutes went on downstream.

Water runs downhill and there was no flotation capability of the other items.

The above has been elaborated on in great detail over the last 10+ years which you are free to check out.  

[olemisscub 466]

Chris Broer found this from the Longview paper on 11/25/71. I have a hard time believing this isn’t the burglary that we’ve been attributing to the Heisson Store. I realize the 302 says 10 miles south of Merwin Dam but this has to be the same crime. 

This is about three miles away from the site where the girl saw the man walking down the road. 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

On 8/7/2022 at 10:37 AM, FLYJACK said:

This is interesting,,

Bill Rollins posted a video about his suspect but he also tracked down a woman who saw a man walking West in black slacks and white dress-type shirt and he identified Lewis River Road and  the cross street as Fredrickson Road. The man was approx. 6 ft, medium build, dark short hair and 30-40 yrs.. That street location had been redacted in the FBI file.. This location is right under the flightpath right at the 8:10 time. It is the northern end of Cooper's LZ just N of the Lewis River.

The woman seems very credible... the description and location match Cooper..

 

 

Bill Rollins video..

 

This is the referenced man walking..

 

Might be the same incident,, if not it is interesting on its own,,

Why take Polaroid film?

Is there some alternate uses for Polaroid film,,,, it has silver???

 

[FLYJACK 654]

Let's put the pieces together... into a timeline..

 

At 8:09 - 8:10,, little bob noted on 305's FDR (Cooper at bottom of stairs, possibly jumping)

A man in a white shirt and dark suit is seen walking West on Lewis River Rd at Fredrickson Rd... virtually under the flightpath at about 8:10 mark on map. 

About 11:00 PM.. About 4 miles West..  Store robbery at 3100 Lewis River Rd..

About midnight, an attempted break in at a rural home several miles south of Woodland. The break in would be about 9 miles from the store robbery. It would take about 2 h 15 m to walk 9 milles,, though he may have got a ride to Woodland.

 

It all fits. This is a very good scenario..

 

Did he have a Polaroid camera, at home??

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

Only issue I see is that he’d have to cross a river to get to Paradise Point.

The first two are intriguing. If Cooper knew the area a little bit (or if just winging it perhaps), then he’d know that to get to civilization he had to walk west toward I-5. So Cooper would have walked down Old River Road toward Woodland. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

9 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Only issue I see is that he’d have to cross a river to get to Paradise Point 

The best I could find was a reference for the Paradise Point area, the Hatfield family home,  I couldn't find an exact address.. it matched the 5 miles South of Woodland.

Maybe, look up "Jess Hatfield" ..

"Cooper" could have gone via Woodland. 

If he did catch a ride it would most likely be to the next town, Woodland.

There are several smaller roads South and the I5 bridge crosses the River to Paradise Point.

There is also a rail track that goes from Woodland South with a bridge, it is about 1.5 miles West. That rail track goes down past Vancouver Lake to Vancouver.

 

The only issue I see is the man walking was spotted about 11:30 PM...

Though time estimates can be imprecise. 

[olemisscub 466]

It's possible that the address remained the same from 1942 to 1971 considering that he was already middle aged in 1942 and probably didn't move again. But I'm not sure this is the type of address that is going to help us. 

 

[olemisscub 466]

[JAGdb 71]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The only issue I see is the man walking was spotted about 11:30 PM...

Though time estimates can be imprecise. 

Right, but who knows, even if he landed within a mile or so of the sighting, it's dark and there's still a lot of woods and terrain. Maybe he got stuck in a tree and it took him some time to get to the road where he was sighted.

[CooperNWO305 146]

On 9/22/2023 at 6:23 PM, c99acer said:

One other witness besides Tina can give answers to the money issue. Maybe not on how the packets were wrapped, but Harold Dwayne Ingram gives away what happened on the beach that day - See minute 62 of episode 1 from 2016 History Channel series. Also in the Colbert book, The Last Master Outlaw... [page 188] ..."not there, see them two little sticks right there" after young Brian began to clear his initial location for the fire. So yes, it arrived on Tena Bar via the same event (person) that also buried it and marked with two sticks! 

When do you think it was buried? 

[FLYJACK 654]

3 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Right, but who knows, even if he landed within a mile or so of the sighting, it's dark and there's still a lot of woods and terrain. Maybe he got stuck in a tree and it took him some time to get to the road where he was sighted.

There are two issues there...  

If he was spotted walking West at 11:30 Lewis R Road and Fredrickson Rd... why did it take 3 hours to get there.

and, the store break in 3.5 miles West on Lewis R Rd was at 11:00 ,,, 

 

These times are likely guesstimates...

[FLYJACK 654]

8 hours ago, olemisscub said:

It's possible that the address remained the same from 1942 to 1971 considering that he was already middle aged in 1942 and probably didn't move again. But I'm not sure this is the type of address that is going to help us. 

 

Rt 1 was the predecessor for I5...  and I found a reference to Paradise Point for the "family" home"

That is probably a post office in Woodland..  The property was rural.

 

[olemisscub 466]

33 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

There are two issues there...  

If he was spotted walking West at 11:30 Lewis R Road and Fredrickson Rd... why did it take 3 hours to get there.

and, the store break in 3.5 miles West on Lewis R Rd was at 11:00 ,,, 

 

These times are likely guesstimates...

The only realistic scenarios to explain this would be if he landed in the woods and it took him several hours to find a road OR if he was roughed up on the landing. McNally was so concussed from hitting his head in the landing that he crawled off and slept for 12 hours. Perhaps Cooper was injured and it took him a few hours to recover or maybe he was moving slow due to an injury. It’s unlikely that the girl who spotted him (if it was him) would have noticed a limp.

All that said, I think the last thing Coop would want to do is draw attention to himself by walking down the street when a car drives by and/or committing a burglary. Best to just keep a low profile and get out of Dodge as quickly as possibly while not arousing anyone’s suspicions.

[FLYJACK 654]

27 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

The only realistic scenarios to explain this would be if he landed in the woods and it took him several hours to find a road OR if he was roughed up on the landing. McNally was so concussed from hitting his head in the landing that he crawled off and slept for 12 hours. Perhaps Cooper was injured and it took him a few hours to recover or maybe he was moving slow due to an injury. It’s unlikely that the girl who spotted him (if it was him) would have noticed a limp.

All that said, I think the last thing Coop would want to do is draw attention to himself by walking down the street when a car drives by and/or committing a burglary. Best to just keep a low profile and get out of Dodge as quickly as possibly while not arousing anyone’s suspicions.

sure, but how to you get out of dodge in a rural area..  walk rail tracks or a road and the Lewis R road was the only way out of there. If there are no rail tracks, you have to take that road.

[olemisscub 466]

8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

sure, but how to you get out of dodge in a rural area..  walk rail tracks or a road and the Lewis R road was the only way out of there. If there are no rail tracks, you have to take that road.

Understood, but I’m getting off the road when a car approaches unless I’m hitchhiking like McNally did. 

[FLYJACK 654]

Found the family home circa 1961... red dot on map

Don't have the exact address but found it on a parcel map with names. it is near NW 259th St and NW 24th Ave.

Here... 

https://maps.app.goo.gl/8RCDodCDosXLFUmM8

If this was Cooper and the same person who was seen walking and did the robbery on Lewis R Rd then he would have had to cross the river at Woodland.. the road can lead to the Hatfield home.

Ironically, he would have headed straight toward LaCenter.

A fugitive might look to hide out in an empty rural property...

Edited September 24, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Understood, but I’m getting off the road when a car approaches unless I’m hitchhiking like McNally did. 

Sometimes that is difficult to do..

Lewis R Rd and Fredrickson looking West...  nowhere to go..

[FLYJACK 654]

Route from the man walking sighting.. 12.9 miles

5 hour walk seems too far..

20 min drive.

Maybe he got a ride to Woodland.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

updated map...