Amazon 7
QuoteGood point. Still all the years, that has past it is certant that the hyjacker is dead. Still as we all know there are no real suspects left alive. It is still a slim posibility that any one could have survived that jump. Point being the hyjacker was not a experienced jumper nor was he a pilot for any airlines. Neither could he have been any thing other than a desperate man. it is assumed that he had a lot of guts and some military training. He did study some. Still he did not know enough to survive that jump. Study the facts, a airline pilot would have known how to open the airstairs door. A person experienced in jumping would have known what kind of foot wear/clothing to use along with the fact that, 25 extra pounds of weight would put him into a spin. Still a Millitary man would have a drink and smoke a cigarette . Even I smoked Back then my choice /brand was Raleigh. a lot of millitary smoked Raleigh. They were cheeper and tasted better than the popular brands.Yes he could have had military training. What country or what branch of service is still in debate, Yet the Best Suspect that has been presented in the past 25yrs is Melvin Wilson. Or some one like him. Jerry
I am glad we taught our people in the USAF to eject or jump from their planes day or night into any environment and return with honor. Hell... WWII there were thousands who managed it
QuoteJerry wrote
QuoteA person experienced in jumping would have known what kind of foot wear/clothing to use along with the fact that, 25 extra pounds of weight would put him into a spin
No spin if you pulled right on the stairs facing forward and let the deploying canopy pull you off. Watch the Air America 727 jump videos. You'll see a very obvious solution for the potential asymmetric payload induced spin problem.
377
I jump with heavy stuff strapped on me all the time and as an experienced skydiver I know how to counter that 'spin'.
As far as footwear, if you don't 'plan' to land in the toolies you may not wear toolie-shoes.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
377 21
Not a UFO Georger. Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYW08S3dAUs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
There is no proof Cooper knew about the details of these jumps but if he did, he knew how to get a stable exit even at night even with a big asymmetric attached payload. Use the deploying squidding canopy as a stabilizing drogue. Start the deployment on the steps. Get pulled off. Hard pull? No worries. Stay on the stairs until you get a good pull that extracts the ripcord pins from the pack cones.
377
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYW08S3dAUs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
There is no proof Cooper knew about the details of these jumps but if he did, he knew how to get a stable exit even at night even with a big asymmetric attached payload. Use the deploying squidding canopy as a stabilizing drogue. Start the deployment on the steps. Get pulled off. Hard pull? No worries. Stay on the stairs until you get a good pull that extracts the ripcord pins from the pack cones.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Amazon 7
QuoteJerry wrote
QuoteA person experienced in jumping would have known what kind of foot wear/clothing to use along with the fact that, 25 extra pounds of weight would put him into a spin
No spin if you pulled right on the stairs facing forward and let the deploying canopy pull you off. Watch the Air America 727 jump videos. You'll see a very obvious solution for the potential aymmetric payload induced spin problem.
377
Not buyin the spin... at all... for only 25 pounds... its an assumption with no facts in evidence. I have jumped with "stuff" punkins.. watermelons.. bowling balls.. and...
And the clothing....how many times have you seen people jumping with damn near nothing on... heck I know this one guy who jumps all the time with no shoes...
377 21
Airtwardo wrote
Hey Airtwardo! Good to see you posting.
You are an experienced demo jumper and flag dragger.
The average skydiver would have a hell of a time making a stable exit at night from a 727 with a big external load.
Do you remember that jumper (1970s?) who went into somebody's yard at night with kilos of cocaine strapped to him?
He was a no pull. Some speculated that he couldn't stabilize and went into a high G flat spin.
This is from Wikipedia:
Gucci loafers??? Thorton was a trained Army paratrooper too. Odd choice of jump footwear.
Doing any West Coast airshows next season Airtwardo?
377
QuoteI jump with heavy stuff strapped on me all the time and as an experienced skydiver I know how to counter that 'spin'.
Hey Airtwardo! Good to see you posting.
You are an experienced demo jumper and flag dragger.
The average skydiver would have a hell of a time making a stable exit at night from a 727 with a big external load.
Do you remember that jumper (1970s?) who went into somebody's yard at night with kilos of cocaine strapped to him?
He was a no pull. Some speculated that he couldn't stabilize and went into a high G flat spin.
This is from Wikipedia:
QuoteAndrew C. Thornton II (1945–1985) was a head member of "The Company", a drug smuggling ring in Kentucky. The son of Carter and Peggy Thornton of Threave Main Stud farm in southern Bourbon County, Kentucky. Drew grew up living a privileged life in the Lexington, Kentucky area and attended the private Sayre School with many other Lexington blue bloods. He later transferred to Sewanee Military Academy and then joined the Army as a paratrooper. After quitting the Army, he became a Lexington police officer [1] on the narcotics task force. He then attended the University of Kentucky Law School. During his tenure, he began smuggling [1].
Thornton had a criminal conviction for drug possession while he engaged in drug trafficking. On a particular smuggling run from Colombia, having dumped packages of cocaine off near the Blairsville, N. Georgia, Andrew jumped from his auto-piloted Cessna 404[2]. In the September 11, 1985 jump, he was caught in his parachute and ended up in a free fall to the ground. His dead body was found in the back yard of Knoxville, Tennessee resident Fred Myers[3]. The plane crashed over 60 miles away in Hayesville, North Carolina[4]. At death Thornton was wearing night vision goggles, a bulletproof vest, Gucci loafers, and a green Army duffel bag containing approximately 40 kilos (79 lbs.) of cocaine valued at $15 million, $4,500 in cash, knives, and two pistols. Three months later, a dead black bear was found in the Chattahoochee National Forest that had apparently overdosed on cocaine dropped by Thornton.[5]
Gucci loafers??? Thorton was a trained Army paratrooper too. Odd choice of jump footwear.
Doing any West Coast airshows next season Airtwardo?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 197
They should have given Cooper $100 bills instead.
They thought about that. He asked for "negotiable"
money. $20s are lot easier to spend than $100's,
and far more of them, so it stacks the odds of
something turning up somewhere (and something
did finally) , plus its a bigger load to slow him down
on foot.
So, dont criticise the fact they gave him so many
bills - the strategy worked.
Too bad they didnt give him $1.00 bills
what would he have said or done? (There would
have been a trail of money to hell and back ...
based on odds alone.)
Quote
Why not "plant" it on the doorstep of the Federal Bldg in Seattle in a shoebox with a big red sign?
Or mail it to Himmelsbach! Then write a note to a newspaper.
If you're going to plant something it has to be
findable? Yes? Out in plain sight somewhere?
So obviously nobody found it 'buried inthe sand,
on Tena's Bar'. Might just as well have buried it
in Peru on some mountain top under a boulder!
Your allegation the money find 'changed the FBI stance/approach to the Cooper case in 1980, is
backed up by what proof? For one thing, it is easily
shown the FBI had already changed its stance on
the drop sone as early as 1976 at the latest, before
the money find. What else are you contending the FBI changed - directly as a result of the money find?
16 DAYS AND COUNTING - GLORY DAY WILL ARRIVE - REPENT -
Georger - think about this Duane Weber always got caught - Right?
He spent most of his life behind bars because he got Stupid - right?
Duane Weber spent most of his life until 1968 behind bars in one way or another - Right? In 1970 he learns he is dying of a kidney disease - he feel cheated and wanted to end his life. It all started NOT because he was a bad boy but in the Navy - he was not a thief then - but, became one because the only job he could get was picking apples or cleaning out latrines - why his parent fought so hard to get the Bad Conduct erased but never could.
In prison - and his association with veterans in and out of the system - I am sure planted some seeds. Like he told me one time and I assumed he was talking about Jefferson because I did not know about the other prisons - he said they used to sit around talking about doing the BIG ONE. His talking about veterans and pilots in the system ---my knowledge of the world was so small I could not invision a veteran or pilot in a stateside prison. I do not recall why this conversation happened other than it was in the last few yrs of his life and I think I asked him what it was like in prison.
Why not go out in a blaze of glory - at least the guys in the prison might guess who went out that door. I feel sure he DID NOT expect to survive (hence the nightmare - one he must have lived with for a long time before he met me).
Why did he choose WA - perhaps because it was the little freedom he did know - in the 40's after he left whatever program he was in with McNeil. Think about this - he actually only had that freedom and the 6 yrs he ran as John Collins always on the run and always looking over his shoulder.
He sent his WIFE home and the stepchildren - (so she told me). Why would he use that tie clasp - because the person who gave it to him was special. He left it behind as a message. I really think Duane thought he would die. Survival was not planned for. How he survived - I believe I know - and I think he called in someone he knew and why this person would later try to find out about the law regarding the money and this persons involvement after the fact. Why he went one way and this person when another way - but that portion is theory, but only because of my contacts with others who knew Duane from the past.
I don't think Cooper was planting anything by placing the money in various spots. I think he was just being Stupid - the same Stupid things that always got him caught before. Maybe when he retrived the money he left behind in WA - maybe it was already unspendable - and why he just dumped it in more than one spot. I and others can only guess at what was going on in his mind. Duane was very much like a little boy in many ways.
When Jerry said I told him Duane threw a "something" out the window over a bridge. YES, that did happen, but it was NOT the Portland bridge. I didn't actually see what went out the window, but I questioned what he threw out the car window and do not remember his reply...this would have been a smaller package than the other 2 packages (oh yes, I did say 2 other packages). I kept a couple of little secrets because I never understood much of this. Only one package was in a paper bag and that was put in the water at the Red Lion.
Since I have been labeled a Liar - I thought I might just as well make it a triple Whopper! (Is there such a thing as a Triple Whopper?)
I have no idea what Duane did that afternoon he disappeared on before we left Seattle. He was not out drinking that is for sure and he was NOT with the guys. He was Giddy as all hell when he got back to the room and we were late going down for the banquet. The next day we left Seattle very early for Vancouver and Portland and then to Tahoe.
When I told Jerry about a bridge all I did was describe an old iron bridge (the old fashion ones like we had in KY). When I saw the Portland Bridge in 2001 and in 2010 I knew that was NOT the bridge he threw something out of the car at.
Like I said Georger - you will have to figure out if this a double or a triple whopper or if it is a whopper at all.
Now when Jerry reads this, he is going to have a hissy! I can hear him already - all the way down here in the south.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
QuoteTena's Bar is far removed from any drop zone or
urban area - in those days. My cousins used to fish
there, One cousin used to patrol it .. Until 1980 it
was buried UNDER topsand. COVERED IN BRUSH!
Georger - in 1979 it was NOT covered with brush. The area just East of there had brush and scrubby trees near the water. In 1979 - there was a small building down there - geeze why did I just say that. Was there a small building not much larger than an out-house just West of the gate and under the trees?
IF I am going to tell a whopper let it be a whopper or maybe I am finally telling all I remember, but then I have been doing this for 15 yrs - so maybe now I do have false memories!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
pek771 0
That was probably made by cutting round stock on a lathe. It is a very common looking chip. Al-Mg is a common aircraft alloy. Of course, the relative amounts of the alloying elements will determine its final use. It is also a common alloy in VW engine cases and transaxle housings, and earlier Porsche engine and transaxles. These applications are likely the 5xxx series alloys, which are wrought. Strong, durable and lightweight and relatively inexpensive. Not as good as titanium. It may have been made by a milling machine, which is the only other possibility.
Once upon a time, men wore shirts and ties to golf in. Imagine that. Double Windsor knot.
Once upon a time, men wore shirts and ties to golf in. Imagine that. Double Windsor knot.
QuoteThat was probably made by cutting round stock on a lathe. It is a very common looking chip. Al-Mg is a common aircraft alloy. Of course, the relative amounts of the alloying elements will determine its final use. It is also a common alloy in VW engine cases and transaxle housings, and earlier Porsche engine and transaxles. These applications are likely the 5xxx series alloys, which are wrought. Strong, durable and lightweight and relatively inexpensive. Not as good as titanium. It may have been made by a milling machine, which is the only other possibility.
Once upon a time, men wore shirts and ties to golf in. Imagine that. Double Windsor knot.
I would say those chips could have been made by a drill press as well...I've worked in a few machine shops and mechanic shops over the years...but WTF is a guy wearing a tie doing in a machine shop anyway...I see a guy sitting at his desk or drawing board fondling a part that hasn't been thoroughly cleaned to see if it's up to specs or some other kind of passive transfer.
eta: damn near forgot...I've got a small machine shop...
hangdiver
"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan
pek771 0
Drill press is another option. I was a machinist when I was a GI, and my experience was the drill presses tend to make those more stringy looking chips with less curl to them.
But, regardless of the actual machine, I agree completely...WTF is a guy with a tie doing in a machine shop? I still to this day, years after being a machinist, wear no jewlery. But, I'm sure there were guys in the 60's that used to wear those ties in the shops. I suppose they were likely the engineers or the QC guys.
If Coopers tie indeed had this chip attached to it, it definitely came from a machine shop somewhere. Wait, he was an engineer at Boeing, got laid off from the 727 program, and said "I'll show them!" And, he left the tie behind as a calling card! We have all been duped for 40 years!
But, regardless of the actual machine, I agree completely...WTF is a guy with a tie doing in a machine shop? I still to this day, years after being a machinist, wear no jewlery. But, I'm sure there were guys in the 60's that used to wear those ties in the shops. I suppose they were likely the engineers or the QC guys.
If Coopers tie indeed had this chip attached to it, it definitely came from a machine shop somewhere. Wait, he was an engineer at Boeing, got laid off from the 727 program, and said "I'll show them!" And, he left the tie behind as a calling card! We have all been duped for 40 years!
I hate answering my own posts...but...I was just thinking how I find little chips in the weirdest places after a session in the shop...even weeks later.
hangdiver
"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan
hangdiver
"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan
pek771 0
hangdiver, you are absolutely spot on with that. I've had MRI's and CT scans, after which the technicians say "you know, you have this little piece of metal in your hand". I still have one old fatigue shirt in the closet, and I'll bet it has a chip somewhere!
EVickiW 0
QuoteVicki: Thanks for the enail. my phone line is down do to the weather. One of the main topics that I will address is your farther at the conferrece at the Hillton to include the Weber story. along with others.I will be stoping by Seattle and discusing everything with Curtis Eng.Hopefully he will attend also. Ralph will address the case. There has been alot of interest in your father the past couple of days. Ive aproached a few of them on purchasing a ticket for you to attend. If it is possible would you be willing to make the trip. Jerry
I could attend...with advance notice.
The hardest thing I will have to do is "cancel" the Holiday with my Mom because I will have to fess up what I have been "doing" the last three years.
Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs
Quotehangdiver, you are absolutely spot on with that. I've had MRI's and CT scans, after which the technicians say "you know, you have this little piece of metal in your hand". I still have one old fatigue shirt in the closet, and I'll bet it has a chip somewhere!
I'm just wondering if this company used exotic metals in the early 70's?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPG_Industries
just wondering...
hangdiver
"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan
Robert99 37
QuoteAnd the clothing....how many times have you seen people jumping with damn near nothing on...
Quote
A number of years ago, there was a small picture in Newsweek (I think) of a young lady in Sweden (again I think) who was in a stable free fall wearing nothing (so it appeared) except the parachute.
EVickiW 0
Quote377 says in part:
Quote'I mean how could someone tell if it was a clip on if I couldnt? Well, "they" were considerably more perceptive than I was...'
Nah. You can tell because the collar lies perfectly flat. With a regular tie, it bulges out a little, that's all.
Can you tell from the pictures (attached) if Mel's tie is a "clip-on"?
QuoteGood point. Still all the years, that has past it is certant that the hyjacker is dead. Still as we all know there are no real suspects left alive. It is still a slim posibility that any one could have survived that jump. Point being the hyjacker was not a experienced jumper nor was he a pilot for any airlines. Neither could he have been any thing other than a desperate man. it is assumed that he had a lot of guts and some military training. He did study some. Still he did not know enough to survive that jump. Study the facts, a airline pilot would have known how to open the airstairs door. A person experienced in jumping would have known what kind of foot wear/clothing to use along with the fact that, 25 extra pounds of weight would put him into a spin. Still a Millitary man would have a drink and smoke a cigarette . Even I smoked Back then my choice /brand was Raleigh. a lot of millitary smoked Raleigh. They were cheeper and tasted better than the popular brands.Yes he could have had military training. What country or what branch of service is still in debate, Yet the Best Suspect that has been presented in the past 25yrs is Melvin Wilson. Or some one like him. Jerry
Hey Jerry,
My Dad fits the physical description, was in the Navy from 1943-47, and he smoked and drank. In addition, he fled from prosecution for a Federal charge of counterfeiting in September 1971 from Minneapolis, MN at the age of 44. At this point he was in a desperate financial position.
I attached some photos of my Dad from Fall of 1963 to March of 1971. I noticed his style of dress did not change over the years. I am sure he was dressed the same or similar when he left for court in September 1971.He has not been heard from or seen since.
Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs
Orange1 0
QuoteQuoteAnd the clothing....how many times have you seen people jumping with damn near nothing on...
Quote
A number of years ago, there was a small picture in Newsweek (I think) of a young lady in Sweden (again I think) who was in a stable free fall wearing nothing (so it appeared) except the parachute.
In SA it is tradition that you do your 100th jump naked. Depending on the club, you may well get a load of naked jumpers to do it with you.
(I got away with doing mine clothed because I was doing a competition jump at nationals, novice category obviously, on my 100th).
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
georger 197
And, he left the tie behind as a calling card! We have all been duped for 40 years!
was found apparently slipped dwn between the seats
so he overlooked it. What I wonder is why take the
tie off at all?
He must have been an experienced sky diver SOG
and all that -
Probably in the Olympics!
Probably did a tandem with FDR and knew JFK!
Probably knew Leonardo da Vinci! (when he wasnt
smoke jumping)
QuoteAnd, he left the tie behind as a calling card! We have all been duped for 40 years!
was found apparently slipped dwn between the seats
so he overlooked it. What I wonder is why take the
tie off at all?
He must have been an experienced sky diver SOG
and all that -
Probably in the Olympics!
Probably did a tandem with FDR and knew JFK!
Probably knew Leonardo da Vinci! (when he wasnt
smoke jumping)
Links please...for verification...
hangdiver
"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan
Farflung 0
As fully expected, when I asked about the source of McCoy’s, LaPoint’s and McNally’s alias there was no answer. None, not a one, nada, just tumbleweeds rolling down the main street in Cooperville. I was surprised by this considering the vast expertise on Columbia River, clamshell, dredging operations. Oh well, another mystery that will never be solved.
But it was those tumbleweeds that had me recall a Western program from the 60’s called ‘The Rifleman’. Watch as he walks and mercilessly pumps round after round from his perfectly poised gun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtbdfypVy38
Oh dear, that was beastly, simply beastly. Then I remembered how pervasive that program had become. There were Rifleman lunchboxes (yeah, you took a lunch to school), BB guns (I’ve never known anyone to lose an eye) and comic books.
I found an old (aren’t they all now?), Rifleman comic and without even trying noticed all sorts of clues sticking out at me. It’s so obvious when you can look at things critically and with intelligence. So it looks like another comic book is the potential name source for Cooper except this one was published right in the good ol’ USA. It sure doesn’t take much imagination to see it there taunting and mocking you for not noticing what has been in plain sight for over half a century.
But it was those tumbleweeds that had me recall a Western program from the 60’s called ‘The Rifleman’. Watch as he walks and mercilessly pumps round after round from his perfectly poised gun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtbdfypVy38
Oh dear, that was beastly, simply beastly. Then I remembered how pervasive that program had become. There were Rifleman lunchboxes (yeah, you took a lunch to school), BB guns (I’ve never known anyone to lose an eye) and comic books.
I found an old (aren’t they all now?), Rifleman comic and without even trying noticed all sorts of clues sticking out at me. It’s so obvious when you can look at things critically and with intelligence. So it looks like another comic book is the potential name source for Cooper except this one was published right in the good ol’ USA. It sure doesn’t take much imagination to see it there taunting and mocking you for not noticing what has been in plain sight for over half a century.
QuoteAs fully expected, when I asked about the source of McCoy’s, LaPoint’s and McNally’s alias there was no answer. None, not a one, nada, just tumbleweeds rolling down the main street in Cooperville. I was surprised by this considering the vast expertise on Columbia River, clamshell, dredging operations. Oh well, another mystery that will never be solved.
But it was those tumbleweeds that had me recall a Western program from the 60’s called ‘The Rifleman’. Watch as he walks and mercilessly pumps round after round from his perfectly poised gun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtbdfypVy38
Oh dear, that was beastly, simply beastly. Then I remembered how pervasive that program had become. There were Rifleman lunchboxes (yeah, you took a lunch to school), BB guns (I’ve never known anyone to lose an eye) and comic books.
I found an old (aren’t they all now?), Rifleman comic and without even trying noticed all sorts of clues sticking out at me. It’s so obvious when you can look at things critically and with intelligence. So it looks like another comic book is the potential name source for Cooper except this one was published right in the good ol’ USA. It sure doesn’t take much imagination to see it there taunting and mocking you for not noticing what has been in plain sight for over half a century.
BOLD by hangdiver
That's just weird Farflung...I met a guy named Cooper on Tumbleweed road who became my friend...whoa...weird...
hangdiver
"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan
Wouldn't the remainder of the money having never been found back in circulation lead to a very possible conclusion the thief wasn't alive to spend it?
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~