Did the Para-commander "flare"?

[Junkers87 0]

I've never jumped a round, but recently I ended up betting with the chairman of my local club about the Para-commander's "flare".

I've read several places about jumpers making "chin-ups" with the rear-risers just prior to landing. I've also read that someone used the toggles, and did indeed make stand-up landings.

Having just seen "The Gypsy Moths" (and "The making of...") I'm quite convinced that a "chin-up" cannot be done fast enough to have any effect. Hence, pulling the toggles/backriser must have the effect of flaring the PC (or any other high performance round).

If you can stall a PC, then you must also be able to flare it?

The blueprints of the PC found at www.parachutehistory.com/round/pc.html I feel confirms my impression.

Anyway, I would really appriciate the opinion of you vets out there! Maybe you can save me from paying the 100 bucks I betted!

[jlmiracle 7]

When I did my student training we had round reserves and under no circumstance were we to flare that round reserve. Winsor broke his foot flaring his round reserve at the WFFC a few years back when it was in Quincy.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[usedtajump 1]

You can flare a Paracommander using rear risers. It helps soften the impact when attempting a stand up landing if you time it right.

It's a flare in name only as the effectivness of this proceedure is by no means anywhere near that of a flared ram air canopy.

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

[slug 1]

Since we're an old fart we made 500 jumps on rounds we were able to do standups 90% of the time.

Our secret to sucess was only weighing 120-130 lbs.

Rather than say we used to "Flare" the canopy prior to landing I's call it applying the breaks to stop any forward speed. Bending at the knees was enough to absorb the verticle impact.

Jumping in winds that exceeded the forward speed was always a challenge but if the winds weren't to severe we were able lean forward in the harness and kick our legs back, land without brakes and salvage a standup land.

I think the technique of using the risers may have been a carryover from military jumpers that was used by some of the "heavy" folks.

This was a long time ago but that the way I remember it.

R.I.P.

[darkwing 4]

I have a few hundred PC jumps, and while the change in flight characteristics isn't as profound as a square, I think that what was often done with a PC using either rear risers or the toggles does qualify as a flare.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[wmw999 2,147]

Pretty much what he said applies for me, including the part about decreased weight... I did use rear risers, but it was just to slow down the forward speed. Not an aerodynamic flare in the same sense at all.

And yes, we always told students never to pull down both toggles -- that it was kind of like turning the umbrella above them sideways to hold out the rain.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

...I ended up betting with the chairman of my local club about the Para-commander's "flare"...

I've got 450 Paracommander jumps. I'll attach two images here to answer your question. The first is the cover of the "Paracommander Owner's Manual", which is the source of my info. I colored the image of the canopy here to match my own PC's colors, way back then. The second image is the page on "Landings", which describes pulling down on risers to flare the canopy for landing, in light wind conditions.

I hope you win the bet. I'd hate to think that I just cost you $100 by providing this info. Hey, I'll tell you what - pay me $50 and I'll delete my message, so that your opponent will never know!

P.S. It is interesting to note the paragraph on how to land in high winds - you'll find the origin of the "hook turn", which is now killing so many skydivers under ram-air chutes.

[wmw999 2,147]

Here is a link to a picture of me landing my old Starlite main. It was a standup, and you can see the rear risers lower than the front.

Correct or not, worked for me.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[steve1 5]

I always used rear risers to land my PC. About eight or ten feet up I'd do a chin up on both rear risers. Lot's of people would pull the toggles down to land a para-commander also. B.J. Worth used to use toggles only, every time I saw him land. My para-commander was not short lined so there was quite a bit of oscillation when making a turn. I used to take advantage of this on windy days....I'd run with the wind and then hook it into the wind at the last second. If you timed it right you had a nice soft landing without backing up. If you were too late on this hookturn you would hit the ground a lot harder, but at least you weren't backing up. I thought I invented this, but have since heard of others doing the same thing. I hated rear PLF's on windy days. French para-boots helped a lot back then......Steve1

[skr 1]

>about the Para-commander's "flare".

I made about 900 jumps on rounds,
and another 900 on PC's, which I
guess are also rounds.

In both cases I used the rear risers.

I'm not sure that "flare" is the right word.

For cheapos and lopos I think the rear
riser effect came from pulling the mods
down and getting more material up in
the high pressure area.

Picture air pressure as a normal vector
and see that the top part of the canopy
is holding you up and around the skirt
it's mostly holding the canopy open.


Maybe this is kind of true for PC's too,
but I think I did PC's that way because
I had been doing cheapos and lopos
that way.


I mostly stood up. Landings under rounds
have been greatly exaggerated for the
jump story effect.

Skr

[slug 1]

Skratch: not trying to get to personal but how much did you weigh when you were jumping those round death rigs?

I've put on about 40-50 lbs since the bad old days and know landing a round wouldn't now would hurt.

Back in the bad old days of one size fits all the "big boys" were hard core, it hurt to watch them land if they missed the peas.

R.I.P.

[meatbomb 0]

Hehe...check this out...from Air Trash...

---
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

[AggieDave 6]

There ya go. Doc Stewart (one of my first instructors) destroyed his ankle back in 1971 by hook turning his PC while doing a hit and chug...well, apparently, even back then, low turns were a bit of a problem.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wmw999 2,147]

Quote

I mostly stood up. Landings under rounds
have been greatly exaggerated for the
jump story effect.

If it were that awful, people wouldn't have done it for fun -- we weren't that stupid then; pain existed in the 70's at least.

There were bigger PCs available (28' Jumbo PC instead of the standard 23'), and other larger canopies. Yes, lighter people had an advantage. But "femured" wasn't a verb back then, either.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jonstark 8]

It was much harder on your body back then. Skydivers didn't stay in the sport for as long or into their later years as is the case now. If the advancements in gear reliability, size, weight, landing ease had not come along most of us jumping for 30+ years wouldn't be in the sport anymore.

Luckily we survived the experiments in the process. We've endured Delta II's, Piglets, Firelites, Hornets, PC Lites, CrossBows, Dactyls, Thunderbows, etc. It seemed that our problem was fooling around with a mal for too long or not pulling at all. We fixed tht with three rings, AADs and reliably opening canopies.

Now; if we can only get the next generation to survive their experiments with how small they can go!!

And...Oh Yeah Scratch hit it on the head with pulling the rear risers to get the modifications down out of the high pressure area. There might be some confusion as to the use of toggles to stop the PC by closing the vents looking like a flare. That was a careful move to precisely close them but go no further than that or you'd be on your butt and might have to get plaster on your wrists as was so popular in the late 70's.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

those round death rigs?

Just because the rigs had round canopies in them didn't make them "death" rigs. A lot fewer people back then were dying landing under open canopies than now. So if anything is a "death rig" because of the canopy it contains, I would say it would be rigs with small ram-air canopies.

Quote

I've put on about 40-50 lbs since the bad old days and know landing a round wouldn't now would hurt.

I was about 180 lbs. then and jumping a 24' MkI Paracommander. Most of the time I had excellent stand-up landings. I stood up my PC landings more than some people I know can do with a ram-air. The exception was when the wind was over about 15 mph and you were backing-up, so we usually just didn't jump in those conditions.

[skr 1]

>how much did you weigh when you were jumping those round

185-195 lbs.

>death rigs?

Today's gear is really different, but I don't think
it's all that much safer. That's just one of those
things that's easy and popular to say.

Safety is much more about people and training
and attitude.

But it's also important not to let facts get in the way
of all those good jump stories. We have a cultural
heritage to maintain here.

Skr

[slug 1]

Jumping a PC at 180+ lbs damn you guy's were hard core or my old brain just can't relate since I was 50 lbs lighter.

I jumped a PC or fun maybe 10 yr's ago and I still remember it hurt weighing 160-170#.

The comment about the round death rigs was a joke. The young ones say that stuff all the time. Some folks call the stuff we used to jump "Gutter Gear" but I can't recall any of it blowing up.

Military surplus stuff was built IAW Mil spec's, tested inspected and even rejected by the military when it reached a certain age used or not.

Of course some folks were able to come up with Fads that just didn't make much sense to me at the time like the fishing weight just above the last pin on the ripcord.

Big advantage you won't lose you ripcord save $10 and beer. Big disadvantage when you cutaway and your on your back with that damn ripcord and you reserve PC in the same place at the same time.

IMO the "bad old days" weren't that bad. But then again jumping with a aircraft altimeter was also kind of strange, never did that either. Thank you SSE.

R.I.P.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

IMO the "bad old days" weren't that bad. But then again jumping with a aircraft altimeter was also kind of strange, never did that either. Thank you SSE.

AWWW come on I LOVED my little panel right there on the belly wart with the AC Alti.. and right next to it I had a stopwatch to keep track of how long I was in FF... ROFL.

I loved landing under my Papillion.. nice and soft always...mostly stood them up. Even the two reserve rides under my C-9 reserve was not all that bad compliments of my packing all the damn steering lines/crown lines on it. I am not a little person and I was about 75 pounds lighter back then. In May I jumped my first round since my last reserve ride on my 26' lo-po in the late 70's. Bit of a hard landing since my flare on the sporterized T-10 was not all that well timed when a gust of wind hit me. But in the spring when we have our local green meet I will be back out there jumping one again.. and yes I will do some more retro training doing some PLF,s so I dont do a PFL.

[chuteless 1]

There are some real interesting comments made in this thread.

The Para-Commander was one of the best chutes ever made, and I think I only had 2 malfinctions on them, one of was becasuse I packed a heavy 16mm movie camera in the apex to pouint down at me once it opened. I did it againlater, and it finally worked.

One PC canopy seemed prone to have problems, and I almost always was able to clear them quickly.

My black and Gold PC was the best. Great for low openings with 2 pilot chutes and a few other tricks. That was most enjoyable of them all.

I almost always got stand up landings, but by the same token, I got lots of those on 28 ft C-9 military canopies.

On one jump I hookedup with a guy , we separated and opened, he was on the ground and I was still at 1500 ft in a Thermal. I finally had to corkscrew my way out of it to get down.

On other jumps I can

Irecall tipping my toes down to reach the ground because the chute was landing so slow.


Years ago, Darryl Henry, Canada's top jumper at the time, wrote an article for Can Para titled "Looping the Para-Commander". It was very well done, with trick photos, and you'd be amazed at the number of people who actually thought it was possible to loop the canopy.

Maybe someone can find that article and republish it again...Its a greatr laugh...especially when the "real" wuffos read it.


Bill Cole D-41

[jonstark 8]

>________death rigs?

Today's gear is really different, but I don't think
it's all that much safer. That's just one of those
things that's easy and popular to say._________

You gotta admit that there were a few abberrations during the developement of todays gear that might be viewed as "death" today. We even saw them as questionable back then. Examples... The Strong Wrapwells (webbing wound thru links then released to cutaway), Tapewells were not much better than the original shot and a halfs but less tangley, How about some of the deployment systems for the hand deploy and the closure systems used. Velcro Pud stuck on the bellyband and pilot chute in the back pad, belly bands, How about all that crap we used to have flapping outside our risers before riser covers?

Gear as we inherited it from the military was pretty bomb-proof. It was limited so we started messing with it and wound up with our own wonderful, sport specific equipment. In more than the past 2000+ jumps I haven't seen my reserve other than to repack it.



-------------------------------------------------------
But it's also important not to let facts get in the way
of all those good jump stories. We have a cultural
heritage to maintain here.
-------------------------------

You are right about the jump stories. They were (and remain) an important way to learn about the sport. There used to be much more time spent on the ground before, after and waiting for jumping. This corporate knowledge just is not as available to the new jumper. The clubhouses, campfires and safety meetings are somewhat a way of the past. Now many DZs are stratified and diciplines are insular. Thank goodness for the internet to revive the spirit of the shared info.

Too bad we can't teach Cardinal Puff here tho...

jon

[winsor 187]

Quote

When I did my student training we had round reserves and under no circumstance were we to flare that round reserve. Winsor broke his foot flaring his round reserve at the WFFC a few years back when it was in Quincy.

Judy

Actually, I traded my PC for Hank's 7-TU for a jump.

Since they were connected to many of the same lines, I decided to use the toggles instead of honking down on the rear risers like with the PC.

Bad plan.

I rediscovered that burying the toggles on a cheapo is how you put it into a sink. Oops...

To the original poster - yes, you can flare a PC. If you want, I have copies of the Paracommander Manual that gets into the process.

Though landings on my RWPC don't really need much input, brisk application of rear risers before touchdown does make standups routine.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

Quote

When I did my student training we had round reserves and under no circumstance were we to flare that round reserve. Winsor broke his foot flaring his round reserve at the WFFC a few years back when it was in Quincy.

Judy

Actually, I traded my PC for Hank's 7-TU for a jump.

Since they were connected to many of the same lines, I decided to use the toggles instead of honking down on the rear risers like with the PC.

Bad plan.

I rediscovered that burying the toggles on a cheapo is how you put it into a sink. Oops...

To the original poster - yes, you can flare a PC. If you want, I have copies of the Paracommander Manual that gets into the process.

Though landings on my RWPC don't really need much input, brisk application of rear risers before touchdown does make standups routine.


Blue skies,

Winsor

Sorry for the misquote Winsor, but I knew it was round.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

The Para-Commander was one of the best chutes ever made, and I think I only had 2 malfinctions on them...

I had 450 jumps on mine, and never had a single malfunction. The worst that would happen is the "frontal tuck", where the nose would tuck back against the center line from initial opening forward acceleration, but those were easy to pop back out. I loved pulling down the centerlines to invert it a bit, and hanging upside down in the harness. I never got brave enough, though, to climb up and sit on the riser cross connectors...

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Re: "death rigs". You gotta admit that there were a few abberrations during the developement of todays gear that might be viewed as "death" today. We even saw them as questionable back then.

Heck, those things have always been true, in my 25 years in the sport. Even today, with the most modern gear ever, we still have things happening to our equipment that are dangerous. Just look at the last few years; the acid mesh problem which weakened nylon fabric, the batch of soft 3-rings that could elongate on heavy loads, soft links trapping stowed steering lines, cutaway cables trapped in barber-poled risers, loose grommets snagging deploying lines, improperly hooked-up 3-rings, misrouted bridles, cutaway handles flipped back underneath the main lift web, and so on. Every time something new is invented, problems surface. Having new gear doesn't guarantee it's problem-free. We still have plenty of gear problems - they're just different from the ones in the past.

I don't think that problems due to equipment were any more prevalent back then, then they are today.

Quote

In more than the past 2000+ jumps I haven't seen my reserve other than to repack it.

Oh man, you shouldn't have said that - now you've gone and jinxed yourself. I've gone 10 years and thousands of jumps before, without a reserve ride, only to be followed by two in two months. You never can tell about those things. Just when you think you must be really good to go so long without a reserve ride, fate intercedes to let you know who is really the boss.

Quote

There used to be much more time spent on the ground before, after and waiting for jumping. This corporate knowledge just is not as available to the new jumper. The clubhouses, campfires and safety meetings are somewhat a way of the past. Now many DZs are stratified and diciplines are insular.

That's an excellent point. With the military surplus gear and low wind limits, a lot of time was spent hanging around as a student, without jumping. I would spend many consecutive weekends at the DZ, and never get to jump. But a lot of info was absorbed during that time. Now I see students show up, make an AFF jump, and depart, all within a couple of hours. Many of them don't hang around and talk at all. They're missing out on a valuable learning opportunity!