My Thoughts on Jumping AADs

[billvon 2,476]

>>Had he not had a Cypres, he would not have been jumping to begin with . . .
>How can you be so sure?
Because, in the incident report, one of his friends related that he had heard him say that - "I wouldn't jump without a cypres."
>I wonder how many students take up the sport even knowing that something
>like a Cypres exists?
I don't think very many. In my experience, only perhaps 2-3 out of 1500 students asked me about it before I mentioned it, but that doesn't mean that more didn't know about it beforehand (of course.)
-bill von

[quade 3]

So I guess that's my point. A lot of folks begin the sport without the knowledge that AADs exist and let's assume that at least most of them are intelligent enough to realize what it means to jump out of an airplane, so yeah the majority of people in the sport really would make a jump without a Cypres. I believe that only after a little education they make statements like "I wouldn't jump without a cypres" and even those statements I think are a bit suspect because they're so easily taken out of context or actual meaning.
For instance, someone might actually say that "I'd never jump without a Cypres" and really mean something like "I'd never jump without a Cypres unless it didn't make sense for some reason like a CRW jump."
quade
http://futurecam.com

[billvon 2,476]

>For instance, someone might actually say that "I'd never jump without a Cypres"
> and really mean something like "I'd never jump without a Cypres unless it didn't
> make sense for some reason like a CRW jump."
Right, and that's why I ask explicitly if they would be willing to do _one_ (unusually safe) jump without a cypres, like a hop and pop. If no, then I start to suspect trouble.
-bill von

[macey 0]

Maybe I am missing something here but, aren't you relying
on on a 'piece of safety equipment' to save your life every time you jump?
Your rig. Are you 'relying' on that 'too much' ?

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

He had admitted to his friends that he had a cypres because he was very nervous about all the things that could happen, and the cypres gave him enough confidence to jump. Had he not bought that cypres, he would be alive today.

What? If he didn't have a Cypres he would be alive today? Sorry Bill, but I call bullshit. He would be alive today if he had a clue and pulled the proper handles in the proper order. In this case that would have been the silver, nothing more.
Sorry to sound harsh, but you can't blame this on his having a Cypres.
-
Jim

[gale 0]

Just a thought, if someone says "I won't jump without a Cypres" it may just mean that because that piece of equiptment exists, they will use it. I'm not sure it necessarily means that if it didn't exist, they wouldn't jump out of airplanes at all.
I never expect to need an AAD. But I also never expect to need the setabelts in my car. I don't want to buy a car without seatbelts and I don't want to jump a rig without an AAD. Without the advent of seatbelts I would still drive, but I'll take the extra protection any day. Seatbelts have also killed people, but I consider that a calculated risk.
Also, recommending to people to make a low altitude dive without any special safety equiptment on seems needlessly dangerous. I hear the point you're trying to make about accepting risks and knowing your abailities. But is living it out really necessary? What if that's the dive where an RSL would have made a difference, and they disconnected it on your recomendation? I personally wouldn't want to be in that position.
You're the instructor and I'm a student and I respect your opinion and recomendations, I imagine they're well thought out. So as a student I have one last question, as a student I am less confident of my ability to handle all situations properly. I do the drills and mental preparation and everything I can to educate myself on what to do, so right now I couldn't imagine jumping without one. Does that mean I should quit?
Gale
Isn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen?

[billvon 2,476]

>Maybe I am missing something here but, aren't you relying
>on on a 'piece of safety equipment' to save your life every time you jump?
>Your rig. Are you 'relying' on that 'too much' ?
Yes, the one piece of equipment you have to rely on is your rig, specifically your harness. Fortunately, that's easy to inspect, and failure rates are astronomically small. Note that you do _not_ rely on your main since you have a reserve (and vice versa.)
Everything else - your parachutes, your altimeter, your AAD, your RSL - can fail. Fortunately, most of these failures are survivable as long as you practice for them and do not rely on them.
-bill von

[billvon 2,476]

>What? If he didn't have a Cypres he would be alive today?
Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. If a jumper collides with a plane in freefall, and is disoriented, and he goes in, the reason he died is that he did not open his main or reserve parachute before impact. Still, if the plane hadn't hit him, he would be alive.
>Sorry to sound harsh, but you can't blame this on his having a Cypres.
I do not. The reason he went in is he screwed up. The cypres allowed him to jump even though he would not have had the confidence otherwise. It was little different than an instructor who graduates a completely incompetent skydiver who does not have the skills to save his own life. If the incompetent skydiver went in, he would bear the blame himself. However, had the skydiver had a better instructor who either a) instructed him better or, failing that, b) did not allow him to graduate, he would not have died.
-bill von

[billvon 2,476]

>Also, recommending to people to make a low altitude dive without any special
>safety equiptment on seems needlessly dangerous. . . . But is living it out really
> necessary? What if that's the dive where an RSL would have made a difference,
> and they disconnected it on your recomendation? I personally wouldn't want
> to be in that position.
It is a position I put myself in every weekend. What if I _force_ a student to go unstable (which we do on a level 6) and they cannot recover stability, and I can't catch them? What if they go in? What if I have some reservations about a student, but let them jump anyway, and they go in? It's a risk I take, and a risk I expose students to as well.
Of course as students, they don't have any choice, so the risks we expose them to are as small as possible, and we only expose them to the ones that we (USPA, actually) think are absolutely vital to their training. As up jumpers, they can better make their own decisions, and can decide not to do something - consequently, I recommend tougher (and potentially more dangerous) manuevers for them. For example, you should practice landing in rear risers, and practice turning in the flare, even though both of those can definitely cause you to biff. Don't want to? That's fine - but personally, I think the risk of a biffed turn-in-the-flare is less than the risk of injury or death if you someday decide to turn into the wind at 50 feet without thinking. If you agree, practice might be a good idea.
>As a student I am less confident of my ability to handle all situations properly.
>I do the drills and mental preparation and everything I can to educate myself
>on what to do, so right now I couldn't imagine jumping without one. Does
>that mean I should quit?
If you are not confident enough in your emergency procedures that you could not make a jump without an AAD as backup, I would either immediately practice them until you _are_ confident enough or quit jumping. An AAD simply cannot replace competence in emergency procedures, and skydivers must treat them as if they weren't there (at least, above 1500 feet.) I think the reason that AAD's _have_ saved so many lives is that people are not relying on them. If they ever do, you will start hearing a lot more about the AAD-failure fatalities than you will about AAD saves.
How to practice? Do it on the ground, in a hanging harness. Practice in freefall; actually touch the handles up there to make sure you can find them. For the ultimate in training, go up and do an intentional cutaway with an intentional cutaway rig. There are a lot of ways to build confidence and get good training at the same time.
-bill von

[drenaline 0]

I'm a new jumper, but am with the people that says that they will not jump without an AAD and RSL, not cause am giving all my trust to the cypress and the instruments, is because of that "what if?". ie. What if I hit my head in a formation and get unconcious? What if am in a uncontrollable spin under my main, release it and can't get a hold of the silver? I know my red and silver stuff but those 2 words (what if) are what bothers me and will not let me jump something without the AAD and RSL.
Am a confident with my emergencies procedures?
I will not answer that, almost all mistakes that happens is cause of excessive confidence which makes you stop practicing your handle locations and your red and silver pulls and makes you stop reading about canopy emergencies, etc. I practice everything everytime I put on my gear and everytime am in doubt. When am in doubt about something else I go back to the SIM and do some reading.
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[billvon 2,476]

>What if I hit my head in a formation and get unconcious?
It's quite possible. Heck, you could get hit by a meteor in freefall and get knocked out. However, if you think the chances of that happening on a single solo hop and pop are so high that you will absolutely not do such a jump, even once, without an AAD - I think you are placing way too much reliance on that device. And in this sport, device reliance can be deadly.
And, if you use that AAD as a reason to _go_ on dives where there's a chance you may "hit your head and get unconscious" - that AAD just did you a lot more harm than good. A better solution is to avoid dives where there's a good likelihood that you will get hit very hard.
-bill von

[drenaline 0]

Dude its a device, a computer, I never trust one and I hate computers (long story), but what if?
Correct me if am wrong, am wild guessing here but aint it possible that when you are climbing out, you can hit your head right at the time you are on the door frame? or another jumper can go low and open his canopy and hit you (fact and has happened)? that bang will defenitely leave you unconcious and you might need those extra seconds the AAD gives you, at least to flare.
Once again I say it, the AAD is not something that will stop me from a jump, I trust more of myself than the apparatus but you'll never know. One of the stuff that I learned from the instructor is: "Don't trust your AAD, it can fail, but never jump without one, it can save you".
I'll be thinking that hop and pop with the AAD off.
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[reprobate 0]

BillVon wrote: Everything else - your parachutes, your altimeter, your AAD, your RSL - can fail. Fortunately, most of these failures are survivable as long as you practice for them and do not rely on them.
After lurking, surfing, reading and winding up getting the crap scared out of me, I am now a student and I have followed this thread with more than casual interest.
My first thought was if an instructor wanted me to do a low hop n pop I would go along with it. If I was asked to disable the backup equipment I would find another instructor. I did read further however, and thougt about what I think (hope) he ment. Since I am a very much a newbie I would like to give some info on safety in another very dangerous place that uses fall protection. A drilling rig.
The fall protection harness is a full body harness and if one is riding on an ascender line (aka man rider) the fall line is sliding along beside him on another fixed cable. We train in them but do not jump off the derrick to practice because even if the stuff works the snap can injure. We train to use it but train harder to depend on work planning to not need it and in back up procedures. On one occasion when everything seemed to not work as written out in the books a safety rep asked me what I was going to do about "that lash up". I replied that training and drills had allowed them to think their way out of multipule equipment mals without inujury which is the point of the whole thing.
My fears as a student is not that my equipment may fail but that I may fail My student rig has an AAD in it but the idea of depending on it makes me pretty nervous. I plan on having one but never using it.
I had accually wondered about practicing a cutaway in the air but believe the best place is hanging in the hanger.

[cloud9 0]

No doubt one of the biggest problems in new skydivers is. They don't listen to instructors, they argue with instructors and for some strange reason many think they know more then their instructors. It just amazes me.

[riggerrob 563]

Arguing with instructors may not be wise, but debating with instructors is good.
Debating with instructors shows that the student is thinking. The student will not be able to rely on his instructor once he has graduated, so somewhere along the line he has to start thinking on his own.
In the long run, thinking will keep that student alive longer.
The toughest part about thinking for yourself is gathering enough information to make wise decisions. Gathering information requires wading through hundreds of fatality reports and (ugh!) statistics to determine which risk has the highest probability of killing you, then reviewing existing technology to minimize that risk.
Far too many skydivers are not willing to put much thought into their gear selection choices and opt for fashion instead.
It is posible to have the fanciest, shiniest, "safest" gear on the planet, but die because you did not know how to use it. This happens to between 20 and 30 American skydivers per year.

[Michele 1]

Quote

The student will not be able to rely on his instructor once he has graduated

Two thoughts on that...
My instructors are always around for me to ask questions of. I am welcomed back to the "student area" whenever I get out to jump. Should I feel the need, I can hire them to come into the air with me. Should I have a question about something, I can always go back and ask them. Should I have a problem on a jump, and land it successfully (as in the recent ludicrous line twists), I can go and talk it through with them, and learn from them. Should I want to go through the harness room, it is always available...I still depend on my instructors, even though I have graduated...
And the other thought totally contradicts the above statement (hey, I'm a woman...)...from the moment you leave the plane until you are down, you cannot depend on anyone BUT yourself...I swear, I was all by myself during my cutaway. No one was helping me, no one was giving me advice, assessing the situation. It was me, alone, hanging under this weird thing. And not once did I think "I wish Ed (Vinnie, whomever) was here to tell me what to do...they had already told me, and it was only up to me to do it, and do it successfully.
So I guess what I mean is that on the ground, you can depend on others to assist you, and explain, and talk, and teach...but in the air, it is all you, just you, only you.
BTW, Congratulations, reprobate - welcome to the sky. Yes, it's scary, but it is amazing and glorious and incredible...worth every second!
Just my .02 (and remember, the $ is weakening!)
Ciels and Pinks-
Michele
Life is what you make it; always was, always will be.
~Grandma Moses~

[kallend 1,683]

<<make sure you can find them. >>>
A regular hanging harness bears no resemblance to the situation you find yourself in with, say, a spinning malfunction, and touching the handles in stable freefall doesn't mean you'll find them during a spinning mal.

[kallend 1,683]

<<unconscious" - that AAD just did you a lot more harm than good. A better solution is to avoid dives where there's a
good likelihood that you will get hit very hard.>>>
No more 10-way speed, I guess, if everyone adopted that attitude.

[drenaline 0]

Am not an instructor nor I have any instructional rating.
Now that I said that, I think that the reason for practice practice practice (about 25 times without stopping) is because it can give you something called muscle memory, something that you will do without thinking and your hands will know were to go to find what you need, is something like practicing your ripcord or BOC pulls on land.
I have no idea if what I said is clear (gotta practice more my english).
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[billvon 2,476]

>No more 10-way speed, I guess, if everyone adopted that attitude.
Correct. If the way you do 10-way speed has people hitting their heads so often that AAD's are pretty much mandatory, then I would either change the way you do 10-way - or stop doing it. Winning a competition is not sufficient reason to accept dangerous collisions as the norm.
-bill von

[Spy38W 0]

Quote

>No more 10-way speed, I guess, if everyone adopted that attitude.
Correct. If the way you do 10-way speed has people hitting their heads so often that AAD's are pretty much mandatory, then I would either change the way you do 10-way - or stop doing it. Winning a competition is not sufficient reason to accept dangerous collisions as the norm.

Hrm, my opinion on this is different... I hate to disagree with you Billvon, especially since I'm just a newbie, but I think of the AAD debate as using all of the tools available to save your life in case somebody has an accident. It's great if the 10 way team makes it into the formation 1000 times without a collision or hard dock, but what if on number 1001 somebody gets a bit overzealous, or just flubs the dive? Poop happens, I sure don't rely on an AAD, I did around 40-50 jumps in my short career without one when I was borrowing stuff, why not have every *potential* life saving device working in your favor?
--
Give them a sip of the darkside, and they just thirst for more.

[billvon 2,476]

>but I think of the AAD debate as using all of the tools available to save
>your life in case somebody has an accident.
I agree.
>It's great if the 10 way team makes it into the formation 1000 times without
>a collision or hard dock, but what if on number 1001 somebody gets a bit
> overzealous, or just flubs the dive? Poop happens . . .
Exactly, and that's exactly _why_ you should use an AAD. Used in that way, it makes skydiving safer.
However, I am concerned about a different use of it. Take a ten-way team that uses techniques X and Y to win their meets. X and Y let them build quickly, but also prevents dangerous collisions most of the time.
Then, one day, they all decide to get AAD's, just in case poop happens. They are now a bit safer since, if worse comes to worst, the AAD may save their lives.
One day, one of them observes "Hey, if we have AAD's now, we can also do Z! Sure, Z is very dangerous, and we might get knocked out, but now we have AAD's so we won't get killed if that happens. We will win more meets." If they do think that way, that AAD just made it more likely that they will get killed.
Don't think that happens? Listen at your DZ, and see if you hear the expression "Hey, that's why I have an AAD." Ten years ago, that person might have just decided to not get on that load, since getting knocked out nearly guaranteed your death. If they decide to get on the load because of the additional safety their AAD affords, they are being less, not more, safe.
-bill von

[billvon 2,476]

>A regular hanging harness bears no resemblance to the situation you find
> yourself in with, say, a spinning malfunction . . .
The way I teach it, it's somewhat similar. Handles are in the same place, motion is similar.
>and touching the handles in stable freefall doesn't mean you'll find them during
>a spinning mal.
However, it is excellent practice for finding them during a total or PC-in-tow. Heck, most jumpers with 100 jumps have touched their handles on the ground, but have never touched them in freefall or under canopy. Doing so is a good idea.
-bill von

[Spy38W 0]

Quote

One day, one of them observes "Hey, if we have AAD's now, we can also do Z! Sure, Z is very dangerous, and we might get knocked out, but now we have AAD's so we won't get killed if that happens. We will win more meets." If they do think that way, that AAD just made it more likely that they will get killed.
Don't think that happens?

I sure hope it doesn't, in my optimistic mind, but I'm sure it probably does..

Quote

If they decide to get on the load because of the additional safety their AAD affords, they are being less, not more, safe.

I see your point, and thinking about it, I see how you've had such difficulty explaining what you really meant in the posts..
--
Give them a sip of the darkside, and they just thirst for more.

[cloud9 0]

Quote

why not have every *potential* life saving device working in your favor

Keep in mind I do use an AAD but if the above were true. Would anyone jump a loaded small eliptical canopy? If you did would you be using every potential life saving device? What about floatation devices when anywhere near water, even a small pond? What about large rings vs. small rings. Very few if anyone uses all of the portential safety devices available.