Fatality Page

[Slink2 0]

Does anyone know if the skydivenet.com fatality page will be updated for 2002. Not to dwell on the negative but that page sure is useful in getting details on what went wrong.

[Cornholio 0]

I was looking at that the other day and the 2002 info is missing. It was there about a month or so ago with either 2 or 3 deaths so far for 2002. I am not sure why the info would be retracted. I also noticed that the site hasn't been up a couple times too.
- Matt
__________________________________________
If first you don't succeed....skydiving is not for you.

[sangiro 4]

I've considered setting up a fatality database on Dropzone.com for this very reason - that the skydive.net fatalities page are sometimes slow to update. I've heard all the warnings about lawyers and such.... but beyond that what do you guys think? Good idea or waste of time?
Safe swoops
Sangiro

[rgoper 0]

HH:
in my humble opinion, it needs to be done, to be utilized solely as a training aid. sad, but true, we learn from the miss-fortune of others. Barry's page has been down for quite some time, and is not up to date at all. it's also a good statistacal device, ie: under canopy, low turn, mal, exit, etc...the story on my friend killed in feb. just now published in junes parachustists. my .02 USD.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[f1freak 0]

It sux that we need pages like this but there is a lot of good examples for us all to learn from.
http://www.skydivingfatalities.com/
I want to be just like Truman Sparks when I get big...

[rgoper 0]

this is not barry's page, i don't believe, it's one i believe the rec put up, but it's no where near current, and it's not being maintained. it's been in this state for a long time.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[f1freak 0]

I know the domain was set up just last month, I thought i read that i was updated on a monthly basis, but i'm not sure.
I want to be just like Truman Sparks when I get big...

[scotts 0]

I think it's a great idea. We're all searching for what can go wrong, what does go wrong, and how it could've been avoided (hopefully). It would even more beneficial to those at less busy dz's who aren't surrounded by people with thousands of jumps.

[freeatlast 0]

I think the fatality page would be an excellent idea ... As a relatively inexperienced jumper it would provide invaluable information ... To err is human, but to learn from our mistakes would be sensible !!!
What does everyone else think ????

[hooked 0]

I think it would be great! You know at first, I didn't want to know about accidents or fatalities...... but you have to know about them, to make yourself safer. Good idea!
J
"You have to learn from other people's mistakes--you don't have time to do them all yourself".

[Donna 0]

I heard www.skydivingfatalities.com is Barry's page. It was just moved to it's own domain and is database driven now. I imagine it takes a while to be updated because there is often conflicting reports in the beginning. Most newspaper articles have a lot of wrong info. Better to wait and try and get the real info. Lots of times this is hard to get and takes a while.
Blue Skies,
D

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

I think it would be a good idea HH. As long as it is used for the right reasons.
Ook Ook Ook !! - The Librarian

[riggerrob 558]

Yeah!
Go ahead and publish brief fatality reports on DZ.com.
Reading fatality reports in Parachutist magazine has cured me of several bad habits.
After 25 years, I don't read them as religiously as I used to, something about them all blurring together. Same accident, different day, yada, yada.
If posting fatality reports on DZ.com cures one bad habit for one junior jumper, it will be enough.
The least pleasant part of rigging is inspecting gear with a policeman looking over my shoulder.

[cloud9 0]

Hey HH I think it would by a great idea. I have learned much from these reports. I also think it would be a great idea to expand that to include incidents, like the one airandrew (I think) reported in the FF forum. The one thing you don't get from the fatality reports is what was going through the jumpers mind during the incident. Why did he/she do the things that they did. I think this would be most benefical. Perhaps you could even keep it anonymous for those who might be somewhat embarrassed or timid. Anyway I know it would be a lot of work and your hands are full now, so anything you can do is greatly appreciated.

[caseyusa 0]

Well it certainly helps me learn from what can go wrong and to mentally prepare for the odd-est of situations...
But if you really think about it. Sharing the fatality information gives that person's "ending" some significant meaning. I would certainly want people to know what happened to me and how they can avoid doing the same thing.

[smiles 0]

Fatality reports are an excellent learning tool. A top rigger's comments on the where, how, why, and lesson to be learned are equally important and extremely necessary.
Recently tragedy struck a female jumper I respected for many years (Sylvie Durand) The "second hand" details regarding the accident were provided to the skydiving community by people close to her....
"At about 800 ft. she performed a few sashays with her Typhoon canopy. During one of these the canopy spun her into line twists with a brake toggle lowered/ turning violently with attempt to clear the lines/ unfortunately not enough time to clear the line twists and the canopy spun into the ground at high rate of descent."
The info provided was too brief- not enough explanation for this fatality re: how, what, why?? With 4,000+ jumps experience and world record skydiver, it is so extremely difficult to accept that she died due to pilot error. One constantly wants to hear that the whole skydiving community will pilot their canopies with more respect.
"Flare before Impact" post came from the heart...
"woman hook-turned herself into the morgue"
"the main canopy was fine, but it was not over her head when she hit the planet" was mentioned along with hook turns involving no flare resulting in injury.
Reading this, I could relate to how the rigger felt, and the seriousness of wanting to convey important message to jumpers...
We are so fortunate for articles written and posted with life saving information.
Unfortunately "Flare before Impact" did not relate to how one should deal with emergency procedures when spinning with line twists/one brake toggle lowered, below 500 ft. At the same time best senario is "do not get your ass in that situation."
Smiles.

[ECVZZ 0]

HH - I think it is an excellent idea, for all the reasons listed above, and Thank you!
G. Jones
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."

[drenaline 0]

HH you have my vote. Would be a great addition and feedback for instructors and all skydivers to know.

Quote

I've heard all the warnings about lawyers and such

Maybe if there are no names and only mention the fatality and how it could of been prevented, something like the incident reports that have the parachutist, it would be ok with the lawyers.
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[Remster 24]

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it would be ok with the lawyers.

If only it was that easy! Some DZs might argue that a death at a DZ is well known enough for a annonymous report to be connected to them, and if there are inacuracy (or if the DZ doenst like the report) it could be easy for them to get the lawers out.
Sangiro: if there is a void, then yes it would be a good idea. However, I think that the info is out there. Keeping up a seperate dB is another way to introduce errors and/or inacuracies. Maybe a partnership with Barry?
Remster
Muff 914

[Donna 0]

Or since Barry already has the fatality page why not concentrate on a nonfatal incident page. I think we can learn a lot from them. I'm glad they have some in Parachutist now but most go unreported. I think it's great when people talk about incidents they recently experienced. Take the recent line twist story. I know after reading that that I will be much more altitude aware than if I hadn't read it. If I have bad line twists now that will be in my head. I never really thought about how much quicker you could be losing altitude because your canopy is compromised from the twists. Maybe you could make a form for people to fill out telling about the incident, what gear they were using, how many jumps they have etc. No names needed. Or names for you but that would not appear on the published report. Just a thought.
Blue Skies,
D

[caseyusa 0]

What if you did the ol' storybook waiver at the beginning...
The stories involved have their names changed, and DZ's changed, and equipment... idono..
Or saying that the information is only for educational purposes.
Worse can scenario you could say the information is for "entertainment" purposes only- it saves you from the lawyer armies but that seems kind of 'not cool.'
What about the whole thing with Public Disclosure? If the government has to disclose certain things.. should we also have a right to other information- ..?
Its easy to ask questions, harder to answer them. :)

[rgoper 0]

**If only it was that easy! Some DZs might argue that a death at a DZ is well known enough for a annonymous report to be connected to them, and if there are inacuracy (or if the DZ doenst like the report) it could be easy for them to get the lawers out.**
are you referring to the same dz's that take our jump money, and require us to sign about 3 dozen forms of indemnification?
mentioning the dz's location, and DBA is nothing that "joe blow" can't find out. as far as how it happened, how many dzo's are under the canopies that send jumpers to there deaths? disclosure of this type of information shouldn't be harmful. what about disclosing whether the use of an RSL, AAD, canopy manufacturer, container brand? if it's ok to disclose this much, the other shouldn't represent a concern. the way this data can help us, would be to put an end to meaningless rhetoric, and inuendos after such an incident. 99.9% of the details and stats are public information anyway.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[Remster 24]

Quote

how many dzo's are under the canopies that send jumpers to there deaths

Lets just suppose (I know its not the case) that this comment was made in reference to a perticular incident under a new canopy called the Scalpel. I can bet some lawers would see a slander case in there (right or wrong), and the costs of defending is what i would worry about. You can make a warning page as long as you like, it will not stop lawsuits, it may help judgements.
PS: "under the canopies that send jumpers to their deaths"???? man, I'm not the most Nazi's of the canopy Nazis, but i cant agree with a staement like that....
Remster
Muff 914

[cpoxon 0]

Barry still provides the information for the page but Eric Denney provides the web services. I presume either Barry has administrative access to the site (if Eric is clever) or he just forwards them to be uploaded.
Barry works for Microsoft and is a pretty busy guy. The page at skydivenet have never been the most up to date, probably due to the reasons Donna stated as well. If you want to find out about the latest incident it certainly isn't the place to go looking for information. It may take time, but the value of Barry's service comes from his analysis, where he often iterates the simple rules that so often get forgotten.
For some time, I've run my own database driven website but since that drew on a site (with Barry's permission as it replicated the content) that is no longer updated and another such site exists, it will probably be no longer updated.
Due to the time lag that happens with investigations into incidents, the time delay isn't really a major issue and that maybe the only improvement to the service you could provide. Unless you have something better to offer (maybe you could give him access to a Fatatities system here but I don;t think that would speed things up, or get the moderator(s) (Bill Von?) to comment on incidents), or Barry has relinquished his role, I think you'd be doing him a diservice by trying to recreate what he's done.

[caseyusa 0]

You're right- while slander is difficult to prove (must show intent to cause damage) the legal costs of defending such a case are just about as harmful as a judgement against.
Why should DZs care if info is disclosed... like you said, there are so many waivers, you couldn't sue them anything. I guess its the 'good name' of the DZ at stake. But shouldn't reputation be legit, with full disclosure?
Its true though.. there's a DZ not 10 minutes from me where people have died recently and has a "currency" (a wink to the currency discussion folks) of accidents in the local newspaper. I have even heard stories of someone who knew the person who fell out of the sky.
When I searched out which DZ to make my first tandem- you can bet that was a part of my decision. It also was more expensive.
Poor safety records hurt business. I know it's easier said that done- but the proactive approach to safety seems the best for all parties.
---
I'm rambling but its fun.