What's a polite way of saying "no"?

[billvon 2,442]

>But also, instead of just turning the person away, how about
>hooking them up with other jumpers around their same skill level?

FWIW, we will not be saying "no" to anyone at tent 1 in Rantoul. (Well, only on very rare occasions where safety is an issue.) We put together dives from 4 to 60 ways, and we have enough organizers so no one will get turned away.

[quade 3]

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Then we match, right? LOL....will you be there on Sunday?

No. No. You missed my point. There's not a lot about RW that I can teach you. You need to find somebody that actually knows something about it, like Chris or Steve.

I could teach you a little about camera flying . . . but I don't think you're quite ready for that yet.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Albatross 0]

Come on Paul I want to see you try and fly without wings

Chris

[quade 3]

Wanna do a trackin' dive? I'll do a back-fly base and you can -try- to catch me.

How 'bout a sit?

I can fly without the wings, it's just not the kind of RW that Michele needs right now.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Michele 1]

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There's not a lot about RW that I can teach you. You need to find somebody that actually knows something about it, like Chris or Steve.

Well, I am willing to bet a pitcher of beer you know more than me at this point.... sucky or not! LOL, I didn't miss your point, my friend, I was just teasing you...

Hey, Sharkie, one of the reasons I can't yet move over to 'Snore is the equipment rental - but lemme tell you, and especially in the mood I'm in right here and now, I may have to get into some serious debt to get this handled, you know? I'll be there as soon as I can...

TG, thanks for the advice - it's true, the more I get on the plane, the more I get out. The more I get out, the better I'll be. The better I get, the more loads I'll get on...once I get "good enough"...which brings us full circle to where we started. Not that it's not good advice, it's just hard to get good at RW when you're doing solo's....
Perhaps, and I say perhaps, this is why FF is attractive to newbies - because there is no-one and nowhere to go learn how to do 2, 4 and other small ways? Just a thought. I dunno.

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Scoby 0]

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Please, please please do that. The last time I was at "my" dz, I was turned down 6 different times (from several different people, including the L/O) I was not given a reason, or an alternative, and not once was I "allowed" to participate. I did one solo, and left. Had someone decided to hook up with me, it would have been a great day - as it was, I left feeling like I was a) unwanted, b) incapable and c) ignored.

Probably the reason I decided not to start my skydiving career at Perris was because I didn't want to be a newbie at a big DZ. At AAW, experienced jumpers are more than willing to help out. The only time I need to jump by myself is when the experienced folks are working (instructing, camera, packing). I'm likely to stick with my home DZ until I'm skilled enough to start traveling (but I'll be out at Perris for the canopy class as soon as we have that organized). If you want to check out a smaller DZ, let me know.

[drenaline 0]

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sometimes #'s doesnt equal experience though. Keep that in mind!

I can't agree more with you, thats why I didn't mentioned about the jump #'s, the idea to look at the log book is to see the remarks and to know what they have done before and its a good way to say you are not allowed in the load.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[Shark 0]

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sometimes #'s doesnt equal experience though. Keep that in mind!

I can't agree more with you, thats why I didn't mentioned about the jump #'s, the idea to look at the log book is to see the remarks and to know what they have done before and its a good way to say you are not allowed in the load.

That's equally true about relatively low jump numbers. I know many sub-600 jump chicks and dudes that can really fly....

[Shark 0]

Michele,

Next time I'm out at Perris I will jump with you.... only if it is out of the van, though.

[christoofar 0]

Michelle:

I feel your pain. I can't do RW right now because my right shoulder is still healing up and the last thing I want is someone taking grips, going low and still holding onto me, and redislocating my shoulder again.

I've been turning down ALL RW and freeflys with other jumpers since last November. Some of the experienced jumpers were really pushy about it too, as if they thought I was in some sort of clique!

I tried to do some rodeo jumps the past couple weekends but I kept getting out of sych on loads with my friends, either they would be on a load and me packing, or me in the sky and them packing.

Sucks.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[Deuce 1]

At Byron, I hooked up with a coach, who then hooked me up with his circle when I was proficient.

I'm there early when the skygods are still rolling out of bed so I can fill in for them when one of them's late. Those RW organizers like even numbers. All the big dogs show up, I'm freeflying.

But now I get to run with the RW big dogs all I want, and I'm trying to break in to the big dog Freefly crowd. It's nice to have a coach vouch that you're not dangerous.

From the responses you've gotten, Perris people already respect you. Lots and lots of people never even get that.

I did four big way funnels at Perris. I would have traded any of them for a good two-way. (especially the night jump that ended a jumpers career)

Take your time, you've got at least 50 years of jumping ahead of you!

[kallend 1,653]

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Those RW organizers like even numbers.

That's because they're spatially challenged. There are some very neat formations that you can put together with prime numbers of jumpers (not just odd numbers). 11-ways, 17 -ways, etc. All you need is imagination.

[bbarnhouse 0]

*sigh* Michelle......It would be my pleasure to jump with you anytime.....I agree with you whole heartily, we need to nurture those new to the sport. There truly are places that do.
When I first started jumping on my own, I too was hard pressed to get people to jump with me, and I made a point not to let others feel left out. I used to be a bit intimidated when some of the "SkyGods" in Eloy would ask me to jump with them but I figured it was a great way to learn. Don't let anyone make you feel less than you are! Hell it take moxie to jump out of airplanes! You Go Girl!
As to "no"....it is our responsibility to be safe, but also ours to encourage the new jumper. We need them in this sport, we need them to stay. Help them along the way just as others have helped you.
Cheers

[Skycoog 0]

I see this sort of thing a lot at DZ's. I've been on both sides of the equation as a new jumper at a big DZ (years ago), and on the other side as an infrequent LO.

The smarter larger dropzones invest in their new people with coach's/LO's that cater to newer, lesser experienced jumpers. I heard good things coming out of Elsinore from Todd Hawkins (though that was in past years) of working in a program for low experience jumpers. Spaceland has a couple of people (JumperPaula) who organize and develop new people, which is a credit to Steve Boyd (DZO) who supports it.

A lot of DZ's require LO's to put together loads of at least a certain size, which makes life difficult for the LO. You have to have the experience level to make the jump work, or else the experienced people get pissed because the jumps aren't good, and the inexperienced people get frustrated because they feel they're not flying adequately.

Bottom line, when I organize I fit the size of the group to the experience level. I hate turning away people. I don't think I have it in my heart to cut anyone. Now a days I often invite the group I'm going to work with before hand to work with for a day or so.

There are options to load organizing "come one, come all" groups. What I've done in the past is divide into smaller groups. The upside being that it includes everyone, downside being that it's twice the work organizing both dives on an often tight call, and I can only be in one of the groups, which often negates a good post dive briefing afterwards. If I do this, I always go with the less experienced group.

Other options are to hook them up with people of their own experience level, which I hate to do because it makes them feel like they're "not good enough", or to ask them to wait until the next load where you can put something together that's appropriate for them.

Either way, you have to make time for new/less experienced people. It's the only way to develop and nuture our sport, whatever the discipline.

LO's often get jumps/compensation for their time and effort, and I think they deserve it. At the same time, if the DZ is inflexible to the point that it's impossible to put together successful loads with the right experience level, it's simply not worth it. It pisses off everyone involved eventually.

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Sounds like Perris needs a few 'Team Funnel' members running amok then? ('Team Funnel' is a group at SDC, and is spreading to other DZ's, that exists on the manta 'Thou shall not jump alone, especially if thou be'st a low timer' - www.teamfunnel.com )

"143 I had been doing."
Well, I know who I will be jumping if if I ever want to try a hybrid - my sit is about 145

[Jiggs 0]

Thanks skycoog there are a few pearls of wisdom there.

I would just like to say that I am in no way a guru, hell I am just a flunky that does it for some laughs and to make sure that some really fun (and occasionaly half-arsed) jumps go ahead. Anyway my own experience has only just started simply out of necessity since no-one else was willing to actually put together some larger loads. (we are not that big)

Its just that sometimes it can be very frustrating to wait for an entire dive for one person to dock. Its situations like that, what can you say? I mean I do try to organise stuff for everyone and I am willing to go on any type of jump, but it seems to burn cash without really helping learning.

I have gone through the experience of getting shot down by guru's and not getting on loads, it happens to everyone. But I have found that if you keep at it and let people know that you are keen you will start getting on some more interesting loads.

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[BikerBabe 0]

Saying no is hard, but you have to do it sometimes.

When you're at a small DZ, it's really hard to tell your friends who have 35 or 50 or 75 jumps that you would rather do two 2-ways than a 4-way. They're excited to do 4-ways! They want to, especially since that's the biggest formation we can make at our DZ (Cessna 182). I can't make them believe that they will learn a heck of a lot more on a good (or even halfway decent) 2-way than they would on a funneled 4-way. They have to learn that for themselves. I don't want to hurt their feelings, either. The funneled 4-way is frustrating for them because it doesn't work, and it's frustrating for me because I want them to have fun, and I can tell they're frustrated!

I think a lot of people turn to freeflying because they get ahead of themselves trying to do bigger and bigger stuff without learning to fly first. They get frustrated at the repeated funneling, so they give up.

Of course, many of them find it hard to believe that I would rather do a 2-way than a 4-way. I just tell them that I have a lot to learn still, as well, and nothing beats a good drill dive for that!

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[coconutmonkey 0]

Right on the money. For lo jumpers a drill dive is a great tool. Much better chance of success and a simple series to start over if someone brain locks / funnels. Might not seem like much to more experienced folks, but a 5 point doughnut drill might just be a lo jumpers first Falcon award. Achievements, even small ones, keep their intrest in the sport alive!

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