narcimund 0 #1 October 14, 2002 This weekend an experienced jumper with a long spot tried a little too hard to make it back. Rather than land in a huge grassy field and walk 1/4 mile he stretched his glide as far as he could to hopefully clear a line of trees between the field and the landing area. He landed in the trees and lost a tooth on a branch. Later that day I found myself over the same field at an altitude that might allow me to clear the trees and make it back. I did the moving point trick and found I couldn't exactly say for sure if I'd clear them or not. So thinking about how useful my teeth are, I set up a nice pattern in the closer field and walked back. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #2 October 14, 2002 QuoteHe landed in the trees and lost a tooth on a branch. That's actually kind of funny, I don't think I've ever heard of that happening before. QuoteLater that day I found myself over the same field at an altitude that might allow me to clear the trees and make it back. I did the moving point trick and found I couldn't exactly say for sure if I'd clear them or not. So thinking about how useful my teeth are, I set up a nice pattern in the closer field and walked back. Good choice. I've become comfortable enough with off field landings (and scared enough of landing in another tree) that I'll always take the off field landing if there is even a little bit of doubt that I'll make it back. Better to land off and in one piece than on and broken. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #3 October 14, 2002 when did U land in a tree? you could still lose a tooth at the golf course! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #4 October 14, 2002 There are several things you can do to increase the chances of getting back to the landing area from a long spot. As soon as safely possible, turn using you rear risers to face the landing area. Don’t make a long spot worse by flying in the wrong direction while stowing your slider, loosing your chest strap, etc. Different canopies and even different wing loading react differently to techniques for increasing the glide. One method is to simply leave the brakes stowed, which allows the canopy to “float”, and steer with rear riser input or harness steer. Another is to release the brakes and pull down slightly on the rear risers, flatting the canopy and getting a longer glide. Sometimes, canopies will glide the most with the brakes set and the rear risers pulled down an inch or two. Experiment and determine what works best for your canopy and wing loading. Try to use harness steering to keep the canopy pointed back to the landing area as any toggle input adds drag and decrease you chances of making it back to the landing area. Reducing drag by pulling your legs up in front of you and collapsing your slider will help you cover more ground back to the drop zone. The faster the canopy, the more this will help. This is also where a collapsible pilot chute can help. Remember that landing at the drop zone is secondary to landing safely. If you are not absolutely sure you will make it back to the drop zone, select a safe alternate landing zone early and plan your approach. Jumpers pushing the limits of a long spot, determined to land back at the drop zone has been a factor in numerous landing injuries. When in doubt, land out. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #5 October 14, 2002 CSS. The whole load got out about 5 miles away from the DZ, I had trees on my left, power lines on my right, and a very small median in the middle. Had I chose to land in the median I would have likely hit the trees or the power lines with the sides of the canopy. I chose the trees. I didn't really land 'in' the tree, so much as I did 'against' the tree. It was quite scary when it happened, quite amusing after it happened. I think I had about 30 jumps at the time. - Jim "Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #6 October 14, 2002 >One method is to simply leave the brakes stowed, which allows the > canopy to “float”, and steer with rear riser input or harness steer. > Another is to release the brakes and pull down slightly on the rear >risers, flatting the canopy and getting a longer glide. It should also be mentioned that winds have a great deal to do with this. They don't affect your glide ratio, but they _do_ affect how much ground you cover. Basically if you're upwind, anything you can do to stay in the air longer (don't release your brakes, spread your risers etc) can help you. If you're downwind, additional speed helps you. Front risers _can_ work but also reduce your glide angle, so they may do more harm than good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropdeded 0 #7 October 14, 2002 Reading all this stuff really makes me realize how little I know about canopy control(26 jumps),I am definately going to remember and practice the things you guys are posting and do some experimenting,with plenty of altitude.I have been concentrating on the freefall mostly but hearing the importance of knowing how many different ways there are to control that thing above me saving my life really catches my attention. Much appreciated dropdeded------------------------------------------ The Dude Abides. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #8 October 14, 2002 QuoteThis weekend an experienced jumper with a long spot tried a little too hard to make it back. Rather than land in a huge grassy field and walk 1/4 mile he stretched his glide as far as he could to hopefully clear a line of trees between the field and the landing area. He landed in the trees and lost a tooth on a branch. Lucky guy. We had a jumper do the same thing, then turn into a small field at the last minute. He ended up with a broken nose and...broken femur, broken pelvis. Ouch. Landing out is something that everyone of us is going to do at some point. No matter how good your DZ is about spotting, no matter how good you think your canopy control is, landing out will happen. Prepare for it. 1) Know your parachute inside-out and upside-down. Know everything about it. Know how it glides with breaks set, know how it glides with breaks released. Know how it lands in deep breaks, and how much glide will follow a front riser dive into a tiny backyard. Know how much altitude it requires for a toggle turn, and how much space it needs for a flat turn. Practice, practice, practice. Accuracy really matters when you are away from the DZ. 2) Review your plans for landing out, and pick a field that you know you can land in with no problems. Far too many accidents happen when jumpers try to stretch their way back to a closer landing, or try to land near a road. A long walk is always better than a short stretcher carry to the ambulance. 3) pick your main and reserve parachutes for off-field landing performance. That super tiny parachute that is kick-ass fun to land on the big DZ, might be a nightmare when approaching a small backyard with trees all around. Likewise, a small reserve opened at a low altitude could get you in major trouble. Know your gear. -Tom BuchananTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #9 October 15, 2002 QuoteReading all this stuff really makes me realize how little I know about canopy control(26 jumps),I am definately going to remember and practice the things you guys are posting and do some experimenting,with plenty of altitude.I have been concentrating on the freefall mostly but hearing the importance of knowing how many different ways there are to control that thing above me saving my life really catches my attention. Much appreciated dropdeded They earlier you start to learn EVERYTHING about your canopy the less of a chance you will be caught up shits creek. I look forward to every canopy ride as much or maybe more than the freefall now. I had to land out in a small baseball field after a tracking dive a few weeks ago and kind of looked forward to it. Wanted to see if my work would pay off. tall trees all around and had now problem or hesitation. Pull high everychance you get. The extra canopy time is well worth a few seconds of freefall Johnny Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beachbum 0 #10 October 15, 2002 All good advice, but for those with low numbers, it is much more difficult to know what your canopy will do under each of those conditions. I try to play and experiment with mine as much as possible, but to quantify, I need to make some jumps where I am in the air near another canopy. I can't yet judge just how much room I need for a flat turn versus a toggle turn, etc., or whether it glides better with stowed brakes or what. How much altitude I require for turns, I have a general feel for from watching my alti while doing these things, but even that is still hard to guage if faced with a low altitude situation, since I still don't have the best ability to size up relative distances in the air. I have had one instance where I JUST got back from a long spot and needed to do a flat turn to get at least partially into the wind ... watching alti the whole way and ended up stopping the turn before I got all the way around so I could level off prior to flaring (I'm not comfortable enough to start my flare in a turn just yet). I intend to try to get someone to pull high with me just to work on these things with another canopy nearby to use as a reference point ... any suggestions as to exercises to help me with that are welcome!! As for landing off ... and that "fore" above ... LOL ... I had my non-second off landing on my last jump ... and did land on a golf course. I had turned back to the dz using risers prior to collapsing the slider (was taught to always do this), and tried flying in partial brakes ... didn't buy me enough and I realized it with plenty of room to spare, so picked a fairway that nobody was teeing off on or in the middle of and in I went. Surprising how much turbulence trees can generate even with fairly light wind!As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutist 1 #11 October 15, 2002 QuoteI need to make some jumps where I am in the air near another canopy. CReW is the best way to get this experience... ask around your local DZ's & you can probably find a CRW Dog who will be glad to teach you some basics of canopy control as well as provide hands-on experience with flying relative to other canopies. QuoteI still don't have the best ability to size up relative distances in the air Developing your ability to judge such things requires lots & lots of jumps. You're right on schedule & it's good that you have such concerns... it means that you realize you have lots more to learn. =] Some people are happy with mediocre canopy control skills and they make no effort to improve on those. QuoteSurprising how much turbulence trees can generate even with fairly light wind! Yes, and the formula I was taught years ago: Expect turbulence to extend horizontally 20 times the height of the object causing the turbulence (tree, building, etc.) and I've found that formula to be quite accurate. So if a hangar is 15 feet tall and the wind is coming over the hangar toward you, you do not wish to land any closer than 300 ft to that hangar. envision such things when you're on final approach... scan the area in front of you for sources of turbulence. Sometimes you can't avoid turbulence cause you can't be so picky when landing off ocasionally, but it's good to be able to predict where the turbulence will be so that if you have the option to avoid it you can. And if you're ever coming to Atlanta send me a note & we can try & hook up for some canopy practice :) Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #12 November 11, 2002 Out of a total of about 20 jumps, about 4 of mine have been off DZ. A couple of those I though that I might be able to make it back, but as my instructors say 'A long walk is better than a short crawl'-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #13 November 11, 2002 [bold]Long Spot Recovery:[/bold] My personal method is to use a wee bit of rear risers to flatten my glide and cover more ground. I have done this with everything from my Sabre2 190 to a tandem canopy. Depending on how many acres of ground the hazards cover below me, I make my decision by about 1500 feet whether to shoot for the landing area or take an alternate. Another good trick is to use anything that throws off a lot of heat and thermals, roads, taxiways, runways, dark patches of trees, etc., flying over them to catch the thermals and stay at your current altitude longer. Remember not to get over any active runway at or below your DZ's pattern altitude, or any specific altitude your DZ specifies. It's safer to land out than to try and float down and active runway at low altitudes. [bold]Turbulence:[/bold] My home DZ of Raeford, NC is home of the "Raeford Dragon." A screwy wind phenomenon that is not kind to canopies in the air on windy, especially gusty, days. Those of us who respect the Dragon choose to land out near the windsock where the air is much less subject to turbulence. On days like that, those who choose to land near the beer line usually end up washing their jumpsuit when they get home while soaking their sore landing gear in the tub. For me, it's worth the extra walk to stand up softly. Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TB99 0 #14 November 11, 2002 Also have to remember that winds affect everything too ... flying in brakes in a no wind day will take you farther than flying with rear risers, but it's just the opposite for a windy day. Flying with brakes when there's wind will slow your forward movement so you'd want to try and use risers. There's all different ways to try and make it back, it all depends on winds, where you're goin (upwind/downwind), the type of canopy you fly, and how you're loading the canopy, etc etc ... You have to get up on both nonwindy and windy days and H&P and see which way flies best for your particular case. I did that and found that on windy days, brakes blow (no pun intended), but when there's no wind, I can fly so much farther forward (slower, but farther) in brakes (how deep of brakes also varies with the person and canopy). Play with your canopy, learn it ... do some H&Ps so you KNOW. Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanEHdian 0 #15 November 11, 2002 QuoteSometimes, canopies will glide the most with the brakes set and the rear risers pulled down an inch or two. Hook, wouldn't any canopy always glide further if it were in full flight, but as level to the ground as possible? Hence, releasing brake toggles and flattening out the canopy with rear risers? Brakes set = toggle input = more drag? Also, if one was to leave the brakes set, would it be overly prudent to release them at an altitude safe enough to deal with possible problems (tension knots, etc...)? Instead of releasing just before it's time to flare... No devil's advocate here, just trying to learn. Cheers, CanEHdianTime's flying, and so am I... (69-way, 108-way and 138/142-way Freefly World Records) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #16 November 11, 2002 I have found that large F-111 canopies glide farther w/ a bit of brakes. Because they are so long nose to tail, pulling down the rear risers produces a big "step" in the canopy, creating too much drag. With small ZP canopies I can pull down a little on the rear risers w/o deforming (the "step") the canopy at all. QuoteAlso, if one was to leave the brakes set, would it be overly prudent to release them at an altitude safe enough to deal with possible problems (tension knots, etc...)? Instead of releasing just before it's time to flare... Absolutely correct. I recommend releasing the brakes above your decision altitude. Hopefully, I will have a more complete article published on this topic soon. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #17 November 11, 2002 >Hook, wouldn't any canopy always glide further if it were in full flight, > but as level to the ground as possible? Hence, releasing brake > toggles and flattening out the canopy with rear risers? Well, first off, we have to keep in mind the difference between glide ratio (sometimes called L/D) in still air vs. distance covered over the ground. Under some wind conditions a big round with no L/D ratio whatsoever can cover more distance than a small ZP canopy. But in terms of pure L/D, every canopy is different. Flattening the canopy with rear risers helps change the canopy's angle of incidence (the angle at which it is "held" by the lines) but also distorts the airfoil. Usually it helps and can be a bit more effective than brakes in extending glide. "Spreading" the rear risers can help as well by both flattening the canopy and reducing the cathedraling of the wing. Sometimes a little brake works better - on some older 425 tandem mains I jumped, using a little flare toggle seemed to make a big difference in glide. A good experiment would be to rig a canopy so its angle of incidence can be adjusted without distortion, something similar to a paraglider 'speed bar.' I think Derek's working on something like this; if so, it will be interesting to see effect on both glide and flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanEHdian 0 #18 November 11, 2002 Thanks Hook - good info. QuoteWell, first off, we have to keep in mind the difference between glide ratio (sometimes called L/D) in still air vs. distance covered over the ground. Under some wind conditions a big round with no L/D ratio whatsoever can cover more distance than a small ZP canopy. Interesting Bill, I think I get it... stay up there longer in brakes and let the strong winds get you back? (instead of your canopy's forward speed?) Also good info, thanks! Cheers, CanEHdianTime's flying, and so am I... (69-way, 108-way and 138/142-way Freefly World Records) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #19 November 11, 2002 Quotestay up there longer in brakes and let the strong winds get you back? That's it....however if you are going INTO the wind I have had the best results by unstowing the brakes, loosening the chest strap, and getting as small as possible. Penetration is the key word. Adding any sort of drag is counter productive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
garywainwright 0 #20 November 15, 2002 Scott Miller told me that the only PD canopy that is better at getting back on rear risers than 1/2 brakes is the Velocity (this was before the sabre2 came out). He didn't comment on other manufacturers gear.http://www.garywainwright.co.uk Instagram gary_wainwright_uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #21 November 15, 2002 One thing that has not been brought up yet.... Most pilots (VFR) fly thinking that the engine is gonna quit on them....And we are always looking for a place to land. So even after you make the choice to try and make it to the landing area....always keep checking to make sure....alot of times you can be fine, then it seems like you hit a wall and stop moving. At times like this, it might be better to turn around and use the wind to push you back to a good landing site, or turn 90 degrees left or right and head to another site. Also.....If there are 2 approaches to the landing area, one over mean nasty looking trees, and another over a big soft friendly looking field....Fly over the big soft field. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TB99 0 #22 November 15, 2002 Hmm ... I'd talk to Scott again ... The info I've posted actually came from canopy courses I took with him. There are situations, even with the Velocity, where brakes fly better than risers (no-light winds). That's what I got from him anyways. Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grasshopper 0 #23 November 15, 2002 Quote Scott Miller told me that the only PD canopy that is better at getting back on rear risers than 1/2 brakes is the Velocity he may very well have said that, but that does not make it true. I have nothing but respect for scott miller, but no way was my spectre 120 better at making it back in half brakes, pretty much no matter what the winds were doing. I was loading it kind of heavy, just below the posted maximum suspended weight (192lbs=1.6:1). of course, I only put about 300 jumps on it, so maybe I didn't know all it could do Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
garywainwright 0 #24 November 16, 2002 Maybe thinking has changed since I spoke to him (about 18 months ago)http://www.garywainwright.co.uk Instagram gary_wainwright_uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
