Switching from Static line progression to AFF

[bradcurn 0]

I am a newbie doing the Static line progression in South Africa and I've successfully progressed to my fifteen second delay jump.

But now I'm stuck. I have done five 15 sec delay jumps and failed them all because of a turn problem. My exits are good and initially everything goes well, on a couple of jumps I have even corrected initial turns and stayed on heading. But then at the end (at about an 11 count) I start a slow turn (mostly to the right) that I can't correct.

The JM' s dispatching me can't see what exactly is contributing to my turning problem although they suspect that it is being caused by an asymmetric leg position.

I'm still enjoying my jumps and the whole skydiving experience but I must admit to some serious frustration at not being able to nail the skill required to stay on heading consistently.

I have decided to give myself some time off and try again in a fortnight, weather permitting. However if I don't pass in the next three jumps I am considering switching to AFF to get the benefit of a JM who will be right there and able to give me accurate feedback about the possible cause of my problem.

I'd appreciate any comments on whether switching to AFF will have the desired result of helping me to identify the cause of my heading problems.

[councilman24 36]

When I was a student 23 years ago I used to have the same problem. I'd even go off side by side hooked up with someone. We'd close the two way, he'd back off, I'd drive forward .... and promptly start to spin. No one could see what I was doing. One night setting on the couch I solved it. I was flying with my head down, looking at the ground instead of the horizon. This was dipping a shoulder and causing the turn. When I concentrated on putting my head as far back as I could it solved the problem. It was harder for me since I was wearing a motorcylce helmet and an old Crossbow rig that was a chest mount like reserve mounted on the back.

My guess is that when you start looking at your altimeter or the ground your dropping your shoulders and relaxing your arch. Try to remember to keep your shoulders rolled back and don't move anything but your head to look around.[email]

AFF might help by having someone else there to look at. In addition you will be able to get some in the air commands about body position. But, this is something you can solve on your own.

Terry

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[bluefingers 0]

Welcome to my world. Hey Brad, I skydive in Maritzburg. Have the same prob on my 15 sec. I'm fine until I come off the hill, then I go into a right hand turn. Which, on my jump on saturday, became a spin.
My suggestion, get video. Then you can see for yourself what's going wrong. That's what I'm going to do on my 3rd attempt at 15sec.
My prob is when I come off the hill, I kick and "Grab" air. At first my JM said it was because I was subconsciously scared, even though I tell him I feel fine with the freefall feeling. BUt he's cool, and we chatted for ages. When I told him I felt like I was too vertical after 6 seconds, we worked out that I am trying to force my body into the box, instead of just letting it happen when it happens. Next jump, I'm to do nothing except arch. But I still can't visualise what I'm doing wrong, which is why I'm getting video.
I had a prob with my drcps, I got video, next jump it was sorted.

Good luck!

Kerry

[sunshine 2]

Having an instructor with you in the air makes a huge difference. I trained on S/L, i had done about 10, 45sec delays and just wasn't learning anything. I couldn't hold a heading, and i had spinning problems. I switched to AFP (similar to AFF) and my freefall problems went away. Switching over was the best decision i ever made.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[TheBile 0]

The only thing I'll say about switching to AFF is if your as crap as I a at it then you could get just as stuck on an AFF level as you feel you are on a S/L level. I recommend you take Bluefingers' advice before you decide to switch. That girl knows what she's talking about.

All the best.

Gerb

I stir feelings in others they themselves don't understand. KA'CHOW !

[riggerrob 558]

Adding to councilman's advice.
While you are keeping your head up, pick a landmark on the horizon and keep focused on it.
Relax.
Breath.
Wiggle your toes and fingers.
Most turn problems are caused by tightening one leg or arm more than the other.
Taking a fortnight off is not the best course of action. When you return from a long lay-off you will have to re-learn some of the skills you forgot in the interim.
As for hiring an AFF instructor .... You are already past the most difficult stage. You have already proven - repeatedly - that you can save your own life.

At this stage you would be better off hiring a freefall videographer to chase you in freefall. Often video will show an assymetry that is not obvious to you or to the instructor sitting in the airplane.
Out of courtesy, you should ask your instructors to recommend a particular videographer who has chased freefall students before. Then ask your instructor to review the video with you after the jump. Chances are the video will show a minor arm or leg assymetry that can be corrected by relaxing, or maybe by doing a few toe taps.

Finally, your problem is minor and you will soon get over it. As soon as you master deliberate turns and your increased confidence allows you to relax more, the problem will disappear.
Most of us overcame minor turn problems and you will too.

[eWave 0]

I had same problems on my student time, mostly on 20 sec delay. Something like 7 times after each other I started to turn slowly to right.

Jumpmasters gave me tips how to prevent turning, but no help. Then, one other student told me how she performs a normal turn. I tried her way, and it worked! Suddenly my problems disapered. I realized that I can prevent that turning!

My problem was on asymmetric legs. I learned to prevent turning and then controlling my legs.

I'll give you same tips what I got to learn to prevent turning:
1. To check your foot position, try to tap your foots together when spinning. That puts legs to same position.
2. How to turn? Just push your other hand down. If you're turning right, just push your left hand down. I noticed, that because spinning was caused by legs, I had to push something like 20-30 cm my left hand down, but it worked.

Some of my jumpmasters told too complicated way to turn for me, like "rotating" your upper body, causing left hand down ja right hand up. Never worked for me. But simple tip from other student worked. Students aren't allways dummies

Try it if you want. Just pressing hand down and enjoy the turn

[JYorkster 0]

Without being there to see you, I'll give my best guess about what may be happening...

Students on S/L or IAD progression spend most of their time 'on the hill' It's not until 10 or 15 sec delays (depending on the student) that they actually get to a normal freefall, belly-to-earth body position. SO, to them, this feels like they are going too far 'head down'. This causes a slight panic and tensing up which usually changes the body position enough to induce some instability or turning. If this is the case, RELAX.

Also, many student programs do not teach students how to turn at that level, but tell them to 'maintain a heading'. How do you 'maintain heading' without knowing how to turn. If this is the case, have someone teach you how to turn. That way, if you start turning, you can stop the turn and even turn back to the original heading. Learn how to turn and PRACTICE before your next jump.

As an additional note, it is VERY difficult to accurately assess a student's body position past a 10 sec delay. If they can't tell you what you are doing wrong, your instructors should be leaving to the plane with you to more closely evaluate your performance. It doesn't have to be an AFF jump for the JM/I to leave the plane.

Good luck!
Rock

[wmw999 2,123]

One more thing on turns, both accidental and on purpose. One way that's often taught is to look in the direction you want to turn in. That only works if you look over your shoulder.

If you look under your shoulder, than you'll probably drop the opposite arm to compensate and turn the opposite way.

And I agree with the video; it's a cheap investment at a time like this. Also the one about learning how to turn deliberately. Awareness is good.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[bradcurn 0]

Thanks to everyone for the comments and good advice.

I am going to get my next jump videod and hopefully that will do the trick.

[listo 0]

Quote

As an additional note, it is VERY difficult to accurately assess a student's body position past a 10 sec delay. If they can't tell you what you are doing wrong, your instructors should be leaving to the plane with you to more closely evaluate your performance. It doesn't have to be an AFF jump for the JM/I to leave the plane

I couldn't agree more! I know a lot of instructors that use video on every jump as a courtesy to their students. I know that I do as well.

On another note, how does everyone in here feel about putting a student out of an airplane without an altimeter, deliberately? The reasoning I was given was that they want the student to be able to judge altitude by sight. I asked about emergency procedures and I was told that students are given a 5 second rule for emergencies. Meaning that you have 5 seconds to fix a line twist or baglock or PC in tow ect....

Personally, I am astonished at this method of training. However, I don't know what types of BSRs this place is operating under, but to me a 5 second rule is pretty vague.

5 seconds under a line twist is going to burn about 200 feet or so. 5 seconds under a PC in tow is going to eat up nearly 1,000 feet. 5 seconds under a baglock or partial canopy could easily eat up 1,000 feet as well. What is the general consensus of this?

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Push 0]

I've spent a whole lot more than 5 seconds under linetwists that I kicked out of just fine. I'm one of those spinning horror stories, and it would put me at a cutaway something like every other jump. If the DZ expected me to do that, I'd go and find another DZ.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[listo 0]

Thanks for the reply Push. I have never heard of anything like this at all and I think that it is unsafe too. After all, how many times does haze make things look different while under canopy or in free fall.

Personally, I never jump without an alti and I surely wouldn't put out a student without one either.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[listo 0]

Better yet, this is going to be a new thread. Look for students jumping without altimeters

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[JYorkster 0]

Yeah, I was shocked the first time a student told me they had been put out without an altimeter. I've never heard the 5 second rule, so I'm not sure what they were supposed to do in case of a mal. I say teach the right way from the very beginning. I give hard altitudes in the FJC...i.e. 'Decide whether or not you are going to land that canopy by 2,500' and "Do not cut away below 1,000 ft'. Now people may have different opinions of what hard decks to set, but there SHOULD be a hard deck. How will the student know when they reach it without an altimeter.

Also, especially with the recent improved focus on canopy control, I teach some basic guideline altitudes for flying the pattern to land. You can't ask someone who has never even been in a plane before to estimate 1000 ft to start their downwind leg.

On a positive note, when I approached any instructor who had been putting out FJC students without altimeters and voiced my opinion and concerns, they did not object to making it standard equipment from now on.

Rock

[Push 0]

You're very welcome. Discussions are a great way to learn, and learning keeps us all alive.

I've been put out without an alti on a static line. Under static line you have a radio with a competent instructor to make sure you don't do anything stupid. I still get yelled at "no more turns!" Especially if I'm not landing on target. An altimeter here is not all that necessary except in emergencies. However, the DZ has been operating for a long time already and noone has ever died. All the cutaways proceed smoothly. That being said, we have an SOS system, so the students never enter freefall.

The 5 second and 10 second delays are done mostly without altis as well. BUT, there is an AAD on both the main and the reserve.

I found that, last season, I could land the 288 in the peas by vision alone, without an alti.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[Tonto 1]

The problem with SL, is that practice makes permanent. You're learning body positions which don't work very well. I suggest you try and work through the problem, and if you can't or are tired of learning the "cheap" way, switch to AFF. Which DZ do you jump at?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[bradcurn 0]

Finally, (on the sixth attempt) I have passed my first 15 sec jump. Then, just to make it sweeter, I also nailed my 15 sec with alti jump on the same afternoon at the first try .

Thanks again for all the encouragement and advice that I got from people here. It really helped me get past the frustration and stay (mostly) positive.

[billvon 2,400]

>The problem with SL, is that practice makes permanent. You're
>learning body positions which don't work very well.

The body positions that work for stability in the SL program work in AFF as well.

[bluefingers 0]

Way to go Brad! Just wait until you do your 20sec dive exit .... it's a fun skydive. Apparently the dive exit, and spin test, are the two nicest jumps on the whole progression .....
You'll find keeping a heading is easier now .... just need that "click" in your brain ....

Kerry

[mountainman 0]

Why dont you have someone jump with you (an instructor) and video tape it. My brother did a 10 sec delay and someone taped him. I don't think you have to switch to find it out... but you do need some video.

http://www.brandonandlaura.com

[curtismelaniej 0]

I too started on static line and switched to AFF at Level 5. The positive to starting on static line in my opinion is that you gain good canopy skills from the start (simply because you make more skydives than AFF), but for freefall skills AFF by far is a better way to go. A jumpmaster is IN the sky with you evaluating and assisting you as you skydive. I would recommend switching-- you will be off student status more quickly and will probably spend a similar amount of money, just in a shorter time period. Those are my thoughts-- good luck!!!!

__________________________________________________________
http://www.skydiveelsinore.com/teams/EXCEL/basic_camp.html

[rocketfeuille 0]

My wife had a similar problem. She is super flexible was over-arching. So, during the Holiday Boogie at Eloy this year, she went through the AFF program and was hugely successful (her instructor actually had her skip a level... that's my girl!). So the moral of the story is this: doing a couple AFF jumps might help you to find out what a good arch feels like, rather than just experimenting with it until you get it right, as you would on static line.