Contacting USPA about canopy training/wingloading issues

[markbaur 0]

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USPA makes students wear AAD's. USPA makes people pull at certain altitudes. USPA puts out wind limits.

Why would WL be any different?

USPA does not make me wear an AAD, although I choose to. And while USPA has established minimum deployment altitudes, USPA does not put out wind limits for me.

USPA already has a WL BSR for students, "All students are to be equipped with ... a ram-air main canopy suitable for student use." I don't know any operation ignoring this BSR.

Mark

[skybytch 259]

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If Jan's attitude is typical for the USPA - you guys (Lisa, billvon, Ron etc.) who are pushing here on dz.com for the USPA to take action have no chance what so ever.

That was her first reaction. I've known Jan for a few years and I have a lot of respect for her. I have no doubt that she'll listen to what we have to say and consider and discuss the issue with an open mind. And that's really all we can ask of any of our directors.

I'm actually impressed that the first reaction of both DJan and Jan was anti-regulation. It shouldn't be easy to change or add to "the rules." Board members who have to be convinced of the need for regulation instead of blindly making new rules - how many other organizations have that kind of leadership?

I agree with you mikkey; what's happening today is quite a bit different than what was going on in the sport 30, 20, even 10 years ago. I remain optimistic that the members of the S&T committee will come to see what Ron, Bill, Wendy and others like us are saying, and that some action will be begun on this issue in the near future.

[Ron 7]

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USPA does not make me wear an AAD, although I choose to. And while USPA has established minimum
deployment altitudes, USPA does not put out wind limits for me.

You missed the pull altitudes....And I could add...

USPA says who can Instruct, who can do demos, night jumps, CRW, ect.

Just because you have a "D" does not mean that USPA does not regulate you.

Do you not think something should be done about this problem?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

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Hmmm, I find it difficult to comment on posts made by people who are not telling us anything about themselves in the profile.

geronimo is Jan Meyer, a national director and a member of the safety and training committee.

If Geronimo is Jan Meyer, why not fill out the profile. Something doesn't sound right here. Why Africa? No jump numbers, nothing.

I don't take into consideration anyone's opinion that can't/won't fill out a profile.


Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[livendive 8]

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If Geronimo is Jan Meyer, why not fill out the profile. Something doen't sound right here. Why Africa? No jump numbers, nothing.

I dont' take into consideration anyone's opinion that can't/won't fill out a profile.
Judy

Why? I can see expecting people to either fill out a profile OR sign their name (which it looks like Jan forgot to do), but to say you'll discount any opinions from people who don't utilize one particular aspect of this site (profiles) is ridiculous.

Blues,
Dave Todak

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,421]

>I don't take into consideration anyone's opinion that can't/won't fill out a profile.

Fortunately you don't have to.

[geronimo 1]

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Hmmm, I find it difficult to comment on posts made by people who are not telling us
anything about themselves in the profile.

Why? Why not reply to what someone writes, the content, as opposed to seeing if they filled out a form to your satisfaction, live in the right country, wear a red shirt or have the right type gear?

"I have a dream that each jumper will be judged by the content of his posts and not by his screen name or profile settings." - apologies to Martin Luther King Jr.

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Quote: "The comments you see & read about today's 1.x+ WL were said 30 years ago
when PCs were introduced.
There were letters that blamed retailers for selling gear to people not qualified to use
the gear.
There were letters that blamed the mfgs for not implementing some sort of
qualification program for the users.
There were letters that blamed PCA/USPA for not implementing 'rules' that would
mitigate the fatalties and injuries. "

Now, I actually did start jumping exactly 25 years ago. At that time you had to have ~
50 jumps to jump Para Commander and 115 to jump square parachutes (this was
where I jumped in Europe and the latter had just being lowered from 200) - don't
know what the rules in the US were at the time.

I started in 1981. At Perris you needed 100 jumps before jumping a ramair. I did my first ramair jump on #93. This was a DZ rule - not a USPA rule.
sample letter:
QUOTE: "Next you'll want jumpers to supply an affidavit as to
the number of jumps made and experience level before he can
purchase Hi performance equipment." Neils Asche, E-19
Australia made in 1969. Asche was responding to a report
that partially blamed an equipment seller for a fatality of
a newer jumper with thirty-something jumps. Asche concluded
his letter to the Australian Skydiver Editor, Trevor Burns,
by stating "Training makes the difference and knowing your
equipment."

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One thing I can tell you is, that it is totally BS to compare issues around the
introduction of the Para or even the square's to the current situation! Yes, people
would probably brake a leg or so learning to fly these, but nothing like today. And
actually the risk of minor injuries were higher on a beginner T-10 or C9 - 7 TU type
due to harder landing and less steering capability (hitting objects, power lines, water
etc.).

Unfortunately your profile does not tell us if you are talking about first, second or third
hand information. But I was actually around when PC's were still used and squares
became the "norm" in the late 70's. No way did we have anything like we experience
now, yes some injuries when people learned to fly squares, but nothing compared to
this and not any fatalities I can remember to have been told about or read about.
So please don't muddy the water with this type of stuff. The issue is to important.

a random short sample:

Parachutist Dec 1972: (Annual Frap Report) "Although this fatality is reported under the heading of ground impact, it is not known exactly what caused the deceased's broken neck. He handled his canopy in an erratic fashion until landing in a small pond."

Parachutist April 1981: (Annual Frap Report) "Another death occurred as the result of a high flare. The victim had 176 jumps but few on a square. He walked away from the resulting hard landing …. He died later in the hospital."

You have apparently read more into what I said.
Today's comments are the same-old-same old.
see also http://ParachuteHistory.com/ramair/tolerance.html

There are also many, many letters about banning low hook turns.

Until we determine the reasons people die under perfectly good parachutes, any solution to prevent these injuries and fatalities may be incomplete or totally miss the mark.

"They made a low turn" is not the reason they die. You have to find out WHY they made the low turn. Unfortunately, most are dead or do not remember the accident, so getting the reasons is difficult. No one crashes on purpose.

The percentage of landing injuries was smaller because the no/low pull fatalities dominated back then. Malfunctions and the mishandling of them were the next biggest category. Fatalities in these categories are sharply reduced today because of inventions, not rules and not training. The 3-ring and the CYPRES have made skydiving safer. People lose altitude awareness just as often as before. The magic box saves them, not the minimum pull altitude rule. You still see a bunch of people screwing up EPs.

What would probably work better than rules is an automatic inflatable landing pad or a Michelin-man inflatable suit.

Don't get me wrong. The landing problem is serious. The proposal to limit WL does reduce the severity of a mishap. The implementation of such a rule becomes complicated very quickly. The real power of enforcing rules is in the hands of DZOs, not USPA and not the FAA. Bill Dause had a no hook turn rule and threw people off the dz many times. He also has a no low pull rule. He even ejected Jerry Loftis from Lodi.

USPA has what might be called the 'persuasion' technique. Formal disciplinary actions are rare. Normally, a RD makes a few phone calls & gives a few people a 'talking to' in order to fix some safety issue. This is also known as intimidation when it gets into heated debates.

Do you think that if someone jumped a canopy loaded at 1.25 when the rules say he can only jump up to 1.2 he would be grounded or suspended by a USPA official?

A DZO could readily change this person's behavior or tell the person to take a hike. What happens when a DZO makes such a rule? There is a thread someplace here about that.

---
I have a dream that my posts will one day will not be judged by the color of the fonts or settings in a Profile but by the content.
Geronimo_AT_http://ParachuteHistory.com

[geronimo 1]

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If Geronimo is Jan Meyer, why not fill out the profile. Something doesn't sound right
here. Why Africa?

I believe it is the first country listed. Hit tab then down arrow.
Besides Jupiter was not listed.

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No jump numbers, nothing.

I don't know how many jumps I have, nor do I care.

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I don't take into consideration anyone's opinion that can't/won't fill out a profile.

Why? Why not reply to what someone writes, the content, as opposed to seeing if they filled out a form to your satisfaction, live in the right country, wear a red shirt or have the right type gear?

"I have a dream that each jumper will be judged by the content of his posts and not by his screen name or profile settings." - apologies to Martin Luther King Jr.

---
I have a dream that my posts will one day will not be judged by the color of the fonts or settings in a Profile but by the content.
Geronimo_AT_http://ParachuteHistory.com

[Michele 1]

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You have to find out WHY they made the low turn

You may not remember, Jan, but you and I briefly spoke at Perris over last Labor day. We talked about this a wee little bit (someone had just been taken to the hospital, IIRC) about this. You asked me why, then...and I've thought about it a great deal. You also suggested I NOT fly at that time because of the turbulence at 1000, and I did listen.

Irrespective of if you remember me or not, finding the reason WHY is paramount to addressing the core. I have some thoughts on that, in a different post. I know why I needed the canopy course; I know what was said to me about why I didn't need/shouldn't take the course. The possibility that what happened to me is something which may clue in what's going on on a silent/subtle but widespread basis is one I've been thinking about...and unfortunately don't have the time to address right this second...and if you're interested, I will be happy to share those thoughts.

Again, thank you for suggesting I stay down on a day when peers were encouraging me to jump, and giving me an excuse to resist conditions which were beyond my ability to handle safely at the time.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[robskydiv 0]

We respect your opinion. Please Don't feel obligated to follow the party line.

[mikkey 0]

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Why? Why not reply to what someone writes, the content, as opposed to seeing if they filled out a form to your satisfaction, live in the right country, wear a red shirt or have the right type gear?

Jan,
A forum is for discussion and conversation. I find it common courtesy to tell people I have a discussion with who I am - that is all. It makes it easier to put comments into context. I find it important that you know that my background is not in the US - I have jumped in Europe and now Australia - in context of this discussion, it is something that might be useful in order to put some of my opinions into context.

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I started in 1981. At Perris you needed 100 jumps before jumping a ramair. I did my first ramair jump on #93. This was a DZ rule - not a USPA rule.
sample letter:
QUOTE: "Next you'll want jumpers to supply an affidavit as to
the number of jumps made and experience level before he can
purchase Hi performance equipment." Neils Asche, E-19
Australia made in 1969. Asche was responding to a report
that partially blamed an equipment seller for a fatality of
a newer jumper with thirty-something jumps. Asche concluded
his letter to the Australian Skydiver Editor, Trevor Burns,
by stating "Training makes the difference and knowing your
equipment."
...................
a random short sample:

Parachutist Dec 1972: (Annual Frap Report) "Although this fatality is reported under the heading of ground impact, it is not known exactly what caused the deceased's broken neck. He handled his canopy in an erratic fashion until landing in a small pond."

Parachutist April 1981: (Annual Frap Report) "Another death occurred as the result of a high flare. The victim had 176 jumps but few on a square. He walked away from the resulting hard landing …. He died later in the hospital."

You have apparently read more into what I said.
Today's comments are the same-old-same old.
see also http://ParachuteHistory.com/ramair/tolerance.html

I still don't get it why you are using the situation 25 - 30 years ago as an argument. There might have been some fatalities in the US, where I jumped in Europe I can't remember landing fatalities at the time. I did not claim there were no landing accidents but the scale was totally different and that is why I say it is not relevant to the issue being discussed here.

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Until we determine the reasons people die under perfectly good parachutes, any solution to prevent these injuries and fatalities may be incomplete or totally miss the mark.

"They made a low turn" is not the reason they die. You have to find out WHY they made the low turn. Unfortunately, most are dead or do not remember the accident, so getting the reasons is difficult. No one crashes on purpose.

We might not know all the exact reasons, but there seems to be consensus around the fact that the margin of error you can "walk away from" under a HP canopy is dramatically smaller then under a big fat Strato Cloud in the 1980's. People stuffed up then but they survived the stuff up. Why do people stuff up? Mostly lack of training/skill and lack of experience. What are the suggestions made in these forums? Stop people with lack of experience jumping certain canopies and increase and improve the training. So I do not get your point.

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The percentage of landing injuries was smaller because the no/low pull fatalities dominated back then.

I might be stupid, but this is lame. Yes it was a lower percentage AND it was a dramatically smaller number in real terms.

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Malfunctions and the mishandling of them were the next biggest category. Fatalities in these categories are sharply reduced today because of inventions, not rules and not training. The 3-ring and the CYPRES have made skydiving safer. People lose altitude awareness just as often as before. The magic box saves them, not the minimum pull altitude rule. You still see a bunch of people screwing up EPs.

But in most countries there are regulations in regard to which equipment you can jump with certain licenses as well as mandatory use of AAD's and RSL and it has been a major reason for the decline of fatalities due to no pull or/and mishandling of mals. Cypres has (as far as I know) about 300 documented saves since the early 90's and in most countries Cypres is mandatory up to a certain number of jumps. I might be wrong but I thought students in the US have to use an AAD?

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What would probably work better than rules is an automatic inflatable landing pad or a Michelin-man inflatable suit.

Quote

Don't get me wrong. The landing problem is serious.

Well, the first part of the quote makes me wonder if you are taking it serious enough.

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The proposal to limit WL does reduce the severity of a mishap. The implementation of such a rule becomes complicated very quickly. The real power of enforcing rules is in the hands of DZOs, not USPA and not the FAA. Bill Dause had a no hook turn rule and threw people off the dz many times. He also has a no low pull rule. He even ejected Jerry Loftis from Lodi.
USPA has what might be called the 'persuasion' technique. Formal disciplinary actions are rare. Normally, a RD makes a few phone calls & gives a few people a 'talking to' in order to fix some safety issue. This is also known as intimidation when it gets into heated debates.
Do you think that if someone jumped a canopy loaded at 1.25 when the rules say he can only jump up to 1.2 he would be grounded or suspended by a USPA official?
A DZO could readily change this person's behavior or tell the person to take a hike. What happens when a DZO makes such a rule? There is a thread someplace here about that

2 points:
1) We all understand this is not easy. It is not easy to find a way forward / rules and it is not easy to implement any solution. Have you guys in the USPA discussed the issues in international forums with people who actually have regulations? Have you looked for feed-back from European countries who now had WL restrictions for some time and asked if they have seen results and what the implementation issues were?

2) Even if I obviously disagree with you - let me state that I admire people who give their time to work in organizations like the USPA. I understand it is difficult and I respect your efforts - so please do not take any of my comments as personal attacks.
I just find this issue the greatest safety challenge the sport has world wide and I really would like to see actions to address the problem.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

• Quote

[jlmiracle 7]

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If Geronimo is Jan Meyer, why not fill out the profile. Something doesn't sound right
here. Why Africa?

I believe it is the first country listed. Hit tab then down arrow.
Besides Jupiter was not listed.

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No jump numbers, nothing.

I don't know how many jumps I have, nor do I care.

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I don't take into consideration anyone's opinion that can't/won't fill out a profile.

Why? Why not reply to what someone writes, the content, as opposed to seeing if they filled out a form to your satisfaction, live in the right country, wear a red shirt or have the right type gear?

reply]

It just seems like people who don't take 15 seconds it takes to fill out a profile are probably just trolling. That is what I have noticed in the past. Also, I have noticed the people who don't fill out their profile with factual information usually have something to hide and are just here to start shit. I'm not saying you are here to start shit Jan. What I don't understand is you have not problem telling people who you are on rec.dot but not here.

It's just my opinion, after meeting you, you made it pretty apparent to me, that to you, my opinion doesn't count.

Judy Welker

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

• Quote

[nathaniel 0]

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Don't get me wrong. The landing problem is serious. The proposal to limit WL does reduce the severity of a mishap.

I think thats slightly off... I think that the proposal to limit WL reduces the severity of a mishap assuming people's behavior under the WL rule is the same as it is today.

I'm not ready to make that assumption...I am not convinced risk-loving people wouldn't find new ways to express their risk preferences if wing-loading is taken away from them.

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[geronimo 1]

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You may not remember, Jan, but you and I briefly spoke at Perris over last Labor
day. We talked about this a wee little bit (someone had just been taken to the
hospital, IIRC) about this. You asked me why, then...and I've thought about it a
great deal. You also suggested I NOT fly at that time because of the turbulence at
1000, and I did listen.

I do remember that conversation. The winds were borderline flaky. It also illustrates the 'peer pressure' phenomena. To jump or not to jump - based on what others say. What I couldn't figure out is why something someone you didn't know had any value to you - except you did know I was a 'local'.

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Irrespective of if you remember me or not, finding the reason WHY is paramount to
addressing the core. I have some thoughts on that, in a different post. [snip] I will be happy to share those thoughts.

I'll be at Elsinore this Saturday.
What the heck does Ciels mean?

---
I have a dream that my posts will one day will not be judged by the color of the fonts or settings in a Profile but by the content.
Geronimo_AT_http://ParachuteHistory.com

[geronimo 1]

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A forum is for discussion and conversation. I find it common courtesy to tell
people I have a discussion with who I am - that is all. It makes it easier to put
comments into context. I find it important that you know that my background is
not in the US - I have jumped in Europe and now Australia - in context of this
discussion, it is something that might be useful in order to put some of my
opinions into context.

I find that content of a post is most important.

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I still don't get it why you are using the situation 25 - 30 years ago as an
argument.

There is an old saying that 'History repeats itself.' or 'Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it.'
The WL problem is a recurring problem. It has become a greater problem in the US because we do not restrict jumpers as much as other countries. Our fewer restrictions is a double edged sword. Many people have freedoms that they embrace and use wisely. Other people take the freedoms in an uncontrolled way and hurt or kill themselves.

I much prefer the fewer restrictions way. Jim Slayton told me recently that France has outright banned low hook turns. When he was presenting the spiel in Brazil for the first Canopy Piloting Championships, it was news to many people there that the stuff PST was doing could be done. It was news that it could be done safely.

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Stop people with lack of experience jumping certain
canopies and increase and improve the training. So I do not get your point.

I seriously doubt that a person bound & determined to jump a small parachute would be 'stopped' in the US - even if there were a gazillion rules against it. People use their second rig or someone else's rig now for gear checks. A WL check would be easy to spoof.

I personally think that the 'problem' lies in why new jumpers do not understand that there is a learning curve with parachutes related to planform & size.

New jumpers see a learning curve for RW, vRW and CRW, but not canopies. Why is that?

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But in most countries there are regulations in regard to which equipment you can
jump with certain licenses as well as mandatory use of AAD's and RSL and it has
been a major reason for the decline of fatalities due to no pull or/and
mishandling of mals. [snip] I might be wrong but I thought students in the US
have to use an AAD?

Yes students are required to use AADs - even SL.
I'm glad the US has not gone the way APF & other countries have for 'experienced' jumpers. I do not want required AADs for experienced jumpers. Gosh - I wouldn't be able to jump right now cuz that gizmo is out of the rig for a 4-year check. It's been sitting in the closet for almost 4 weeks now. I promised myself to ship it off this week. I'd rather sell it, but its value is too low to make it worthwhile.

I'm glad USPA did away with the mandatory helmet rule too.

In a nutshell, here's how most Americans (too damn independent for their own good) think:
"It is my life and I will do as I damn well please."

We don't want some agency telling us to use beepers, AADs, RSLs, big parachutes, altimeters, helmets etc. People like me look 'very dangerous' on paper because we do not have all of these 'life-saving' devices.

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Well, the first part of the quote makes me wonder if you are taking it serious
enough.

FMI see
I can't find the Patent No. right now, but there is an invention along these lines.

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1) We all understand this is not easy. It is not easy to find a way forward / rules
and it is not easy to implement any solution. Have you guys in the USPA
discussed the issues in international forums with people who actually have
regulations? Have you looked for feed-back from European countries who now
had WL restrictions for some time and asked if they have seen results and what
the implementation issues were?

IMHO, freedom of choice is more important to us than making sure every idiot that straps on a parachute lives. There is also a BIG liability issue in the US that does not exist in other countries. Suppose an agency says "jump this canopy for x many jumps. You'll be safer." Then someone dies on that recommended parachute. Here come the lawsuits - "Hey you guys said it was safer - but he died anyway. You lied. You are liable."

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2) Even if I obviously disagree with you - let me state that I admire people who
give their time to work in organizations like the USPA. I understand it is difficult
and I respect your efforts - so please do not take any of my comments as
personal attacks.

This is a totally weird comment. We agree that the WL issue is a problem. We agree that jumping larger canopies at lower jump levels mitigates the severity of a mishap. We agree that the newer jumpers should be guided along. We only disagree on the implementation. As I said before, I do not have an answer, but I do know the restrictions type method would not work well in the US.

BTW, a personal attack would be something like 'I think your dog is ugly or your hat is crooked.' None of what you have said comes anywhere near to a 'personal attack'.????

---
I have a dream that my posts will one day will not be judged by the color of the fonts or settings in a Profile but by the content.
Geronimo_AT_http://ParachuteHistory.com

[geronimo 1]

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It just seems like people who don't take 15 seconds it takes to fill out a profile
are probably just trolling. That is what I have noticed in the past. Also, I have
noticed the people who don't fill out their profile with factual information usually
have something to hide and are just here to start shit. I'm not saying you are
here to start shit Jan. What I don't understand is you have not problem telling
people who you are on rec.dot but not here.

Here are a couple of reasons:

1. I can't type & it's a pain to fill it out. I also do not need another data place to keep up to date.

2. I don't care about all that crap, so why should anyone else.

3. I'm a very private person.

4. Profiling is bigoted.

5. Posts on r.s under Geronimo do NOT have my real name. If you do a WHOIS search on ParachuteHistory.com you will find my name.

6. I have an account here with my MakeItHappen.com email. I do not remember the username or password. Sangrio could not find it, but I get those occasional mass emails from dz.com, so I know the account is there.

7. I'd rather have people NOT know my background. I'd rather have a reply based only on the message content - not whatever background I have. As what might be called a 'famous' skydiver, I'd rather people, especially new jumpers, not know I have a bunch of jumps, been jumping since the painted desert had a primer coat, have World Records, or am on the USPA BOD. People say more of what's on their mind when they talk to just another jumper full of opinionated opinions much more than speaking to a 'famous' skydiver or a USPA 'official'. Many jumpers won't talk to me peer-to-peer. I try to make them. If I lose the replies from people that want to 'know the background of the poster' so be it. I look for the content, not the messenger or the envelope.

8. I've posted on many forums & newsgroups in many different areas: skydiving, apache, linux, php, css, javascript, c++, java, email, UI design, web hosting, windoze, etc etc. Your reply is actually the FIRST time a post (question or answer for someone) of mine generated a "Who the Fuck are you?" as a condition for a reply. I find that interesting. My gut feeling is that it is an isolated manifestation of the culture on this board. Guess I owe a case of beer too.

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It's just my opinion, after meeting you, you made it pretty apparent to me, that
to you, my opinion doesn't count.

Please clue me in on what you are referring to, as I have no idea.
I remember talking to your husband Chris during a weather hold last fall.

---
I have a dream that my posts will one day will not be judged by the color of the fonts or settings in a Profile but by the content.
Geronimo_AT_http://ParachuteHistory.com

[Ronnie 0]

"My gut feeling is that it is an isolated manifestation of the culture on this board"

The elitist, ego culture!

[Ronnie 0]

Oh, and also the "I have X amount of jumps and you don't, therefore you don't know how to skydive, pilot a canopy, or land." I forgot about that one. If this forum is about safety and "training" some people, not all, really need to take a deep look at their teaching methods! Read a sports psychology book or something, please.

[Michele 1]

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What I couldn't figure out is why something someone you didn't know had any value to you - except you did know I was a 'local'.

There are several more complex reasons, but the easy one is John Brasher sets great store by your opinion...I set great store by his...someone who I'd seen around the DZ who had been pointed out to me as a great role model and example, and that person suggested it was choppy and I might want to sit it out, which comported to my thoughts, well, then, down my bottom goes.

I don't see that as peer pressure, I see that more as following the suggestion of someone who has more jumps in more conditions than I do, and while I had already demonstrated concern by asking the question, my observation was validated and I was reassured that said decision was correct. And if you didn't understand my reasoning, why didn't you ask me then?

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I'll be at Elsinore this Saturday.

As I will, doingthe Bridging the Gap seminar. I would like to give you my newbie perspective then, if I have time.

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What the heck does Ciels mean?

Ciels means skies...and it's how I've signed off for 2 years...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[mikkey 0]

Thanks for your post. It made it more clear to me where you stand on the issue. You are probably right that the key to the argument is a cultural difference between the US and many other countries. "Personal freedom at all cost" if I may put it in simple terms - same thing with your gun laws. I think the US is the only "western" country where you are allowed to own fire arms (at least without many restrictions). So I now see your comments from that perspective and that is fair enough. Not that I share the "perspective".

I and many others (including quite a few US skydivers on this forum) do not think

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....freedom of choice is more important to us than making sure every idiot that straps on a parachute lives.

The reason is that a lot of fatalities and injuries affect us negatively, both emotionally and practically, (e.g. insurance cost).

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There is also a BIG liability issue in the US that does not exist in other countries. Suppose an agency says "jump this canopy for x many jumps. You'll be safer." Then someone dies on that recommended parachute. Here come the lawsuits - "Hey you guys said it was safer - but he died anyway. You lied. You are liable."

I see your point - but does this not cut both ways, i.e. more fatalities and injuries = more expensive liability insurance?

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BTW, a personal attack would be something like 'I think your dog is ugly or your hat is crooked.' None of what you have said comes anywhere near to a 'personal attack'.????

Happy you don't have a problem, some people get easily upset when you are dis-agreeing with them, so just wanted to make sure I was not misunderstood.

Thanks for discussing the issue, in my mind it made it quite clear what to expect will happen (or not happen) in the US on this issue.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[jlmiracle 7]

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Please clue me in on what you are referring to, as I have no idea.
I remember talking to your husband Chris during a weather hold last fall.

Okay, I would send you a PM but your profile said you can't receive them.

This happend twice while we were out there. As you are going down the line of girls introducing yourself (I'm assuming becaues you were running for the BOD), you introduce yourself to the girl next to me, shake her hand, move to me, look at my name badge, and said "I don't know you". Then you moved to the girl next to me, introduce yourself, shake her hand and move to the next. I was quite dumbfounded, especially since it happened twice. The girls next to me asked me what hell I did to you.
My response was, I don't know, I've never met her.

Judy Welker

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[geronimo 1]

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Okay, I would send you a PM but your profile said you can't receive them.

That is because I have no intention of checking PMs or dz.com email for messages. This way no one will be wondering why I don't answer.

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This happend twice while we were out there. As you are going down the line of girls introducing yourself (I'm assuming becaues you were running for the BOD),

I did that because I did not know around 80 women on that load. I like to know people's names.

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you introduce yourself to the girl next to me, shake her hand, move to me, look at my name badge, and said "I don't know you". Then you moved to the girl next to me, introduce yourself, shake her hand and move to the next. I was quite dumbfounded, especially since it happened twice. The girls next to me asked me what hell I did to you.
My response was, I don't know, I've never met her.

Ok, so you realized that I was trying to learn people's names. I say 'I don't know you' and then look at your name tag. If someone just described that to me I'd think that the person learning the names was doing mental gyrations of matching the face to a name. Since I was that person, I can state first hand that I said 'I don't know you' & then looked at a nametag to a bunch of people that weekend in order to connect a name to a face. I even did that to Cindy Gibson - about 5 times. And I've known her since the mid 1980s! I should have stuck with 'Cindy Chidester' in my head & then translate the last name. By the end of the week there were only 5 people that I could not remember. On the upside there were +140 participants plus various spouses that I did know.

Now, how you go from that to ' my opinion doesn't count' is beyond me.

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I have a dream that my posts will one day will not be judged by the color of the fonts or settings in a Profile but by the content.
Geronimo_AT_http://ParachuteHistory.com

[VectorBoy 0]

geronimo is Jan Meyer, a national director and a member of the safety and training committee.

btw, my thanks to both Jan and DJan for reading and contributing to the discussions here. It's a good thing to have board members making themselves available to us like this.

[jlmiracle 7]

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I did that because I did not know around 80 women on that load. I like to know people's names.

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Now, how you go from that to ' my opinion doesn't count' is beyond me.

Well, I guess because you made it a point to introduce yourself to the girls on each side of me I assumed that my simple existence didn't matter so why would my opinion.

I look at someone's profile like their resume especially when it comes to safety and training, gear and rigging. I guess I am a bigot as defined by American Heritage Dictionary n.One who is strongly partial to one's own group,(for me that would be skydiving) religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.(There are a few wuffo's out there that I can tolerate)

Judy Welker

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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