The111 1 #1 August 21, 2003 Ok, so I was daydreaming about mals again and I thought of this. Obviously I should ask my instructors and I will when I'm at the DZ again, but I'm curious what people on here think... and maybe some of those who respond will be instructors themselves. If I were to get a PC in tow, and assuming that all that was wrong was my pin was stuck (no, I'm not sure how I would really know this), would it be a bad idea to try to reach behind my back, grab my bridle, and yank on it? I guess there are two concerns, (1) would if be effective, and (2) would it introduce a new risk? (1) If the PC is inflated it probably wouldn't be effective because I honestly doubt my arm at that odd angle could generate more force than the PC in the wind. But might still be worth a try. If the PC is not inflated, it seems more likely this could actually help. (2) Only thing I can think of is maybe getting my arm tangled in the bridle. And losing altitude awareness and valuable time, which is why I would only try for 1-2 seconds if I did. I dunno, maybe I'm putting to much trouble into a situation where I should use textbook emergency procedures... but it seems worth a try to avoid having a two out or a cutaway main not releasing until after reserve deployment, both of which could result in canopy entanglement. Flame away. www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #2 August 21, 2003 I have thought about this too so would be interested in the answer. It would all have to be above the hard deck whatever happened. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 10 #3 August 21, 2003 I will only attempt main deployment 2 times! I do this to avoid bouncing. Anyone with and AAD should think about it to aviod main reserve entanglements. P.S. I always pull the pin, by hand ,on my own gear anyway.----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hazarrd 1 #4 August 21, 2003 I was at the DZ 3 weeks ago and one of the new instructors there told me that he had a chute in tow. He reached behind and yanked real hard and it opened. He said he would never do it with a tandem but he had decent altitude to do it on himself. I gave it some though and I think I would go for the yank, I don't really see a reason not too unless you are extremely low. I think that yanking it will almost always get the parachute out for you. .-. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #5 August 21, 2003 Good or bad idea...Depends. What are you trying to prevent? A reserve repack? (You can't prevent a malfunction - as you're busy having one of those...) Do you know you can reach your bridle attachement point with your hand? (Some people can't even find handles) Have you decieded which hand you would use? Should you choose to continue - these are your risks. 1. Loss of altitude awareness 2. intanglement and possible injury 3. Loss of stability 4. You know this one, right? What are your gains? Sounds to me that you have correctly identified a malfunction - and should now proceed with the malfunction procedure you were taught, particularly if this is your 1st mal. If you have a bunch of chops, KNOW your pilot chute is uncocked, are aware of your altitude, KNOW you can reach the bridle and KNOW which arm you'll use and KNOW you can maintain stability during the process - by all means - give it a go. What's the worst that can happen? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #6 August 21, 2003 A friend of mine regularly gets pilot chute in tow when on a sub-terminal opening. All he does is reach arround the back and give the bridle a good whack, clears it every time. We keep telling him to buy a bigger pilot chute but he already has no money. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeDiver 0 #7 August 21, 2003 ok i'm getting sick of this What's a pilot shute in tow ? I'm not native english speaking; so forgive me... I thought it was your bridle getting entangled with your feet or something ? And is the point of discussion here to whack the pilot shute loose or the get the d-bag out of the container ... Isn't that dangerous as hell cause you're not getting a decent deployment sequence ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #8 August 21, 2003 A pilot chute in tow. When you have succesfully deployed your pilot chute, but the bag has not been released from the container. Reasons could range from a colapsed pilot chute, pilot chute entangled with bridle, pilot chute blown up/torn, bridle incorrectly routed etc. A bridle entangled with feet etc would be classified as a horseshoe malfunction, particularly if the container is open. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #9 August 21, 2003 its could also simply be not enough drag on you pc from the relative wind or a very tight pack job causing too much pressure on the pin (the cause of my friends problem) or some even apply the term to when your pc is caught in your burble which is a mere nuisance factor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #10 August 21, 2003 Quotea very tight pack job causing too much pressure on the pin (the cause of my friends problem) I'm not really buying this one. I don't think that a main container could be closed (without tools) so tight that a properly constructed pc in good condition wouldn't open the container. What I'm saying that the size of the pc might not be the issue, but rather its condition or construction. Either way it obviously requires some attention. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 10 #11 August 21, 2003 QuoteI was at the DZ 3 weeks ago and one of the new instructors there told me that he had a chute in tow. He reached behind and yanked real hard and it opened. He said he would never do it with a tandem but he had decent altitude to do it on himself. I gave it some though and I think I would go for the yank, I don't really see a reason not too unless you are extremely low. I think that yanking it will almost always get the parachute out for you. Pilot chute toss(original)=first attempt Reach for bridle one time only=second attempt Now it is time to get a reserve over your head! High speed mals are just that...HIGH SPEED. I have had 2 and was under reserve at aprox 1800'. How low do ya want to go!----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCR10480 0 #12 August 21, 2003 Daydreaming, or mentally preparing for a malfunction is a good idea...I do it on every load. Trying to invent methods of dealing with malfunctions is a bad idea...I'm a simple creature really, I always opt for the easy way. P/C in tow? Pull the handle with the hole. Okay, now try to keep an eye on my bag/pilot chute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #13 August 21, 2003 QuoteDaydreaming, or mentally preparing for a malfunction is a good idea...I do it on every load. Trying to invent methods of dealing with malfunctions is a bad idea...I'm a simple creature really, I always opt for the easy way. P/C in tow? Pull the handle with the hole. Okay, now try to keep an eye on my bag/pilot chute. I totally agree with you, although i am one of those persons that cannot reach very far on my back, so i don´t think i would be succesful at grabing the bridle. However i have a related question, although in a real situation, when you throw the pilot chute, if you get a chute in tow, you don´t know exactly why that happens (you don´t want to waste time analyzing the situation) should you cut away first or go directly for the reserve. I would cut away first so i wouldn´t get two out due to the lack of pressure in the container after opening the reserve. Is that what you meant? or you would go directly for the reserve? Regards Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #14 August 21, 2003 QuoteI would cut away first so i wouldn´t get two out due to the lack of pressure in the container after opening the reserve. Is that what you meant? or you would go directly for the reserve? There was a big thread about this recently, and I think I came to the conclusion that I would go straight for reserve. Reason? If the main does deploy after your reserve, but you have already cut it away, the risers could entangle with your reserve as they are passing it. I mean, I guess if it's NOT cutaway, then it could still entangle with your reserve as it deploys... but I'd rather have two canopies deployed (even with a possible entanglement) than just one reserve tangled with a cutaway main. I would rather not have entanglement, but I guess if it had to happen it would be best to have both sets of risers still attached so maybe the combined square footage of both screwed up canopies would allow me to land with a little less pain? And I guess another pertinent question is how likely a main deployed after reserve is to entangle, vs. an already-cutaway-main, deployed after a reserve.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #15 August 21, 2003 Would an uncocked, torn, or entangled pilot chute generate enough force to unstow the lines? If not you have just spent time transitioning from a pilot chute in tow to a bag lock. I'd vote for emergency procedures and forget about pulling on the bridle._____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #16 August 21, 2003 I have two concerns with this: 1) Altitude and time - if you're that low, I don't think you have time for "exploring" other options. You have roughly 12-15 seconds to "0" and 6-10 seconds to AAD fire (dependant on "pull" altitude). If you employ your emergency procedures, you're more likely to have a positive outcome. 2) Bridle - reaching around behind you back and placing your hand around a thrashing bridle could cause your hand to get wrapped up in the bridle, suspension lines, parachute if it suddenly deployed. Now you have a situation where your hand is stuck with your canopy deploying. One handed emergency procedures? A dislocated shoulder? You do employ your emergency procedures with one hand, but have a deploying canopy wrapped around one hand? Even if there is no injury and you have a parachute wrapped around your hand, will the drag on one hand prevent you from toggle ccontrol? Will you be able to control the canopy wrapped around your hand to prevent it from entangling with your reserve? Way too many questions to consider when the best answer is to look over your shoulder, identify it as a pilot chute in tow, cutaway, rake your 3-rings & pitch the risers and pull your reserve handle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #17 August 21, 2003 QuoteWould an uncocked, torn, or entangled pilot chute generate enough force to unstow the lines? If not you have just spent time transitioning from a pilot chute in tow to a bag lock. I'd vote for emergency procedures and forget about pulling on the bridle. Woa, very good point. Except a bag lock would almost certainly be able to be cutaway. But to repeat your point, this would all take time. I generally deploy between 3500-4000, so I'd like to think I have time to pull the bridle, realize the bag lock, cutaway, pull reserve, but in in real high-speed mal that is a lot of shit to happen just right in 5-10 seconds. I'm still undecided.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #18 August 21, 2003 QuoteA friend of mine regularly gets pilot chute in tow when on a sub-terminal opening. All he does is reach arround the back and give the bridle a good whack, clears it every time. We keep telling him to buy a bigger pilot chute but he already has no money. Sooner or later, he is going to lose this game. Have the S&TA fill out an incident report with his name on it with the details starting out as "Pilot chute in tow" and give it to him. One of the goofiest things I hear when it comes to safety is the issue of "cost." If you can't afford your own safety, you can't afford to skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #19 August 21, 2003 QuoteNow you have a situation where your hand is stuck with your canopy deploying. One handed emergency procedures? A dislocated shoulder? Woa, another damn good point. How about getting your arm torn off (literally) by the forces generated by a deploying main? I'm thinking this might actually be possible, since these are the same forces that slow your entire fucking body from 120mph to almost nothing. Quotethe best answer is to look over your shoulder, identify it as a pilot chute in tow, cutaway, rake your 3-rings & pitch the risers and pull your reserve handle. Could you elaborate on raking the 3 rings? I've heard that the proper response to a PC in tow is just to pull reserve. If you force your risers to disconnect, but still have your main bag in your container, you now have risers AND a PC/bridle flapping around in the space you want your reserve to deploy in. I've never heard of manually clearing your risers and it sounds kinda wrong to me now, but it's quite possible I'm missing your point.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCR10480 0 #20 August 21, 2003 A pilot chute in tow is unmistakable, you will not feel any deceleration or be stood up, (as you would in, say a bag lock). Since your main tray will still be closed when you deploy the reserve, cutting away your main isn't necessary. Pull the reserve, and pull it now! If, by some chance the pilot chute in tow clears (as some un cocked pilot chutes will) after you deploy the reserve, you'll likely feel the main bag drop out...it might even hit the back of your legs. At any rate, you will then be going so slow that inflation of the main canopy will be severely retarded, and a cut away can be easily accomplished. Remember, in skydiving seconds count. All emergency procedures should be automated by drill...do it the same way you were taught, and when you do it in your head, don't try to complicate it with different scenarios. Keep it simple. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #21 August 21, 2003 QuoteCould you elaborate on raking the 3 rings? I've heard that the proper response to a PC in tow is just to pull reserve. If you force your risers to disconnect, but still have your main bag in your container, you now have risers AND a PC/bridle flapping around in the space you want your reserve to deploy in. I've never heard of manually clearing your risers and it sounds kinda wrong to me now, but it's quite possible I'm missing your point. This procedure is usually (raking the 3-rings and pitching the risers) demonstrated for a horseshoe malfunction. In the days of ROL, a misrouted bridle could have a pilot chute in tow where there was enough snatch force to pull the pin enough to bobble the d-bag on your back while there is tension on the pilot-chute being towed. As a Tandem Instructor, its also possible for the same scenario, whereby the Drogue (pilot chute is wrapped around yours or the students foot). If you pull the drogue release, you could have both a pilot chute in tow and horseshoe situation. (There is quite an ugly and unnecessary fatality that TI's have to watch on video while earning their TI certification - kind of the AFF's version of "Students at Play" video). As such, I try to incorporate "the best" emergency procedures into one. So, if I have a pilot chute in tow on a tandem or personal rig, by the time I've cutaway and gone to rake and pitch, the risers are either going to be there or not. If they are there, that one-two seconds spent "pitching" ensures I've cleared a path for my reserve deployment. If they are not there, that one-two seconds verifies I have a clear path for my reserve. My choice is; why "think" about which one to do when doing the same thing for either emergency should provide the same results. Its just my own personal choice in a pilot chute tow situation to rake and pitch. Others may have a different opinion and choice. Quotebut still have your main bag in your container, you now have risers AND a PC/bridle flapping around in the space you want your reserve to deploy in. In the "what ifs" game, you have a point here. Another "what if" is; "What if when you pull your reserve handle without cutting away at the exact same time your pilot chute disengages and starts the main deployment sequence. Now, you have both parachutes and their wads competing for airspace. Even "if its "just" a pilot chute in tow on my personal rig, I would at least cutaway the main, then pull the reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #22 August 21, 2003 QuoteAs such, I try to incorporate "the best" emergency procedures into one. So, if I have a pilot chute in tow on a tandem or personal rig, by the time I've cutaway and gone to rake and pitch, the risers are either going to be there or not. If they are there, that one-two seconds spent "pitching" ensures I've cleared a path for my reserve deployment. If they are not there, that one-two seconds verifies I have a clear path for my reserve. I'm still confused. What do you mean by the word there? Maybe I'm really stupid but I hardly understood any of that paragraph. I'm not even positive I understand how one would rake a 3 ring, but I'm guessing it means use your fingers to make sure the 3 rings are separated and then literally throw the risers behind you? I'm not sure why I'd want to do this except in horseshoe. With PC in tow, why not just pull reserve as SCR10480 suggested? EDIT: Ok, I think I understand what you're say now... there's some kind of horseshoe that may appear as a PC in tow but you actually have your dbag sitting on top of your reserve. So you cutaway and pitch your risers behind you if they're not already, to get the horseshoe clear of your reserve. If you just have a regular PC in tow though, does adding your risers to the streamer above your back make more shit for your reserve to get tangled with? Or, I guess the risers won't really go anywhere when you pitch them if the dbag is still in the container, right?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #23 August 21, 2003 I edited my reply to include your concerns in your second paragraph. For a detailed visual demonstration of raking and pitching, I would encourage you to watch the video "Breakaway" avaliable at most DZs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #24 August 21, 2003 Ok, thanks. You're right that it's a game of what ifs... www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #25 August 21, 2003 You are to be commended for "reaching out" for new information. Over time, you will play the "what ifs" game with each new incident you learn about. SCR's point of keeping it simple is very important. Build your own knowledge database with each incident, get input on "best" possible procedures from the senior staff at your DZ, decide which is best for you and then... Practice, practice, practice.. Time your practice drills. Take air, Keith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
