Night jumps

[canopywhore 0]

I've done night jumps and I agree with you. Sometimes those late sunset loads are challenging. I think some people that haven't made a night jump aren't prepared for them.
I've done Night Jumps at 3 diff DZ's, all of them had some sort of lights. Eloy has the best night briefings I've been to so far. Coolidge had the best lit Dz and Marana did the runway thing with green on one end and red on the other, I didn't like that too much but it was my 1st and now it wouldn't be a big deal. I think that D-license should require night jumps. The D should be more challenging to obtain, it should represent someone who has completed some challenging tasks and is able to do them again if needed and or advise other jumpers on those situations. Of course I femured in broad daylight so my view is a little different.

[jerm 0]

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Any light placed in/on the landing area for the sole purpose of aiding the jumper in landing(surrounding light from bldgs, photons, etc not included) is considered a light dz.

But not in this context. The DZ in question has runway lights which mark the airport but do not light up the ground. THAT was the central issue of the debate.

Some DZs are difficult to find during the DAY w/o knowing the surrounding geography really well (grass strips, private stips, etc...), having nothing to distinguish the DZ from its surroundings is just cruel and unusual and even i'm not that much of a hardass.

The original debate (I was the one arguing with heatherB before she posted) was illuminated landing area vs non-illuminated landing area, not one of lights merely marking the DZ in some way (ie: lights that, if turned of when you were at 50 ft would not change the light-ed-ness of where you're about to land a discernible degree.)

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[rgoper 0]

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As an S&TA I am about fed up with the whining.

quit being an S&TA then. it would seem to me that your dissatisfaction with response to night jumps has caused you to lose your motivotional skills to the point of "labeling" sky divers who do not wish to do them. these are skills you should certainly possess as an S&TA. if this attitude persists it has the potential to render you complacent, thus also aiding you to become inefective as an S&TA. safety should be your first concern in your capacity, attacking and name calling speaking to others in a condescending manner is hardly condusive to building a skydivers confidence level. please rethink your position.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[hookitt 0]

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The D should be more challenging to obtain, it should represent someone who has completed some challenging tasks and is able to do them again if needed and or advise other jumpers on those situations.

(sorry heatherb..it seems to have turned in to a different discussion)

Challenging yes. But what's jumping in the dark got to do with it? Heck, how much is your parachute worth? Have a mal and chances are you'll never see it again. That reason alone should denote any requirement to night jump.

A night jump is a special event. People plan for it take as many precautions as they can think of (or should any way). It's not an accident to jump an hour or later after sunset. It's Something fun/scary/challenging. Jumping when it's dark has nothing to do with skills needed to advance in skydiving.

Do a couple night jumps and get your d-license. If you choose to never do it again, what have you learned, and what was so useful about it? This information will never be needed.

It's not like it's water training. Jump where there's water and there is a chance you're going to need that training.

It gets dark every day. operations shut down by then. so....back to the top where it's a special event that has no bearing on skills required to Advance in skydiving. ---theses damned circular discussions---

To keep this inline with the topic, I prefer lighted landing areas. Paso had a great lighted area when it was in operation. (ask Skybytch) I agree with the Eloy comment.

Just remember... don't avoid your own shadow on a night jump.
-
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My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[LouDiamond 1]

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The original debate (I was the one arguing with heatherB before she posted) was illuminated landing area vs non-illuminated landing area, not one of lights merely marking the DZ in some way (ie: lights that, if turned of when you were at 50 ft would not change the light-ed-ness of where you're about to land a discernible degree.)

If I throw bean bag lights in the shape of an arrow on the DZ so you know which way to land you will have some illumination lighting the area allowing you to land safely. That is a light DZ.

Now if you consider having stadium lights and 20 cars with head lights on being a light dz then I call that over kill and maybe the people jumping shouldn't be on the load if they HAVE to have a fully light DZ in order to land.

I agree there is some degree of skill required to do a night jump but I don't buy into the unlight DZ for civilain skydiving, that is plain stupid.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[sar911 0]

As for the "wussing out" issue, I don't let child like expressions guide my direction in making decisions. Night jumps like all other jumps have inherent risk. The goal should be to teach and provide the jumpers the safest way to accomplish the goal. Whether or not the requirement for a D-lic. is valid is irrelevant. The requirement is there so the approach should be how do we accomplish the goal until or if it is changed.

The landing area should be lighted to make it as safe as possible. The briefings should cover all four pages of the SIM on night jumps, not just here are some cylume sticks and land here! If we took the same strict approach to night jumps that we do with AFF etc. it would build the confidence level of those jumping and more skydivers would probably want to make more night jumps.

If you have skydivers with a higher night jump skill level that would like to do a "no light landing" then do a separate load for that skill level.

Skydive Sebastian and Lake Wales are two of the DZ that I have done night jumps at that I would recommend. Both light the landing areas and both do pretty good briefings, debriefings after each jump and check-in after landing.

As for the S&TA response, I am disappointed that someone at that level and representing the USPA would make that kind of public comment. I know what DZ I would NOT send someone to for training.

[jerm 0]

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If I throw bean bag lights in the shape of an arrow on the DZ so you know which way to land you will have some illumination lighting the area allowing you to land safely. That is a light DZ.

Barely. I don't know what a beanbag light is, but if it's anything similar in intensity to the runway lights i describled prevlously, i consider that a MARKED, but unlit landing area.

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I agree there is some degree of skill required to do a night jump but I don't buy into the unlight DZ for civilain skydiving, that is plain stupid.

completely un-lit, i agree. The issue of the original post has to do with what i stated in the previous paragraph vs having cars and/or floodlights actually illuminating the landing area.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[rgoper 0]

what's next? should we require student drivers going through driver's education to drive down the interstate at night without the headlights on just to aquire their driver's license? what would it prove? it would indicate poor judgement. i respect this sport, i'm anal about safety, this is not a safe sport during normal opps, so why add another element to heighten the danger aspect of skydiving. if it's as cool, and safe as some claim, why then would the DZO's NOT sign a statement that would compensate for any injuries that have the high probability of occuring for adding this additional risk to our sport?

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[jerm 0]

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if it's as cool, and safe as some claim, why then would the DZO's NOT sign a statement that would compensate for any injuries that have the high probability of occuring for adding this additional risk to our sport?

Why should they? No one is forced to do night jumps.

Oh yeah, and night jumps or not, IT'S NOT SAFE!!!!!!

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[canopywhore 0]

Well I guess if I took a wrong turn on the discussion the answer would be I would like a very well lit(stadium comes to mind) Dz, but I've never had the chance to jump at a place with that much light.

[rgoper 0]

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No one is forced to do night jumps.

you are forced to do them to satisfy requirements for a "D" license.

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Oh yeah, and night jumps or not, IT'S NOT SAFE!!!!!!

i could have never survived if you had not brought this to my attention. thank you.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Kris 0]

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what's next? should we require student drivers going through driver's education to drive down the interstate at night without the headlights on just to aquire their driver's license? what would it prove? it would indicate poor judgement. i respect this sport, i'm anal about safety, this is not a safe sport during normal opps, so why add another element to heighten the danger aspect of skydiving. if it's as cool, and safe as some claim, why then would the DZO's NOT sign a statement that would compensate for any injuries that have the high probability of occuring for adding this additional risk to our sport?

Richard, you're right...skydiving isn't safe. But I can definitely see the need for the requirement.

I have been on loads that have gone up with plenty of daylight left but we haven't been able to get out of the plane until almost dark because of traffic or other issues. In those cases, having the information I recieved from a night jump brief and the experience from a pre-planned night jump would have been a godsend. Instead, it lead to some sore muscles and a torn jumpsuit.

You don't have to get a night jump. There's nothing stopping you from keeping your C-license for as long as you want, provided that you don't aspire for a rating higher than Coach.

I am the recently converted on this issue. I too never wanted to do one but needed to get my D to keep my rating. I received a brief from a great S&TA, we had everything planned out, and we (the jumpers) were constantly communicating and watching out for each other. Truthfully, I don't know why I didn't do it sooner. To call it a beautiful experience would do it an injustice.

If you have the canopy skills to qualify for a D, there is no reason why a well-planned jump should be a problem.

If nothing else, you can always petition the USPA for a restricted D.

Kris
D-26033

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[jerm 0]

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No one is forced to do night jumps.

you are forced to do them to satisfy requirements for a "D" license.


And getting a D license is a choice, so my statement stands.

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Oh yeah, and night jumps or not, IT'S NOT SAFE!!!!!!

i could have never survived if you had not brought this to my attention. thank you.

And your sarcasm was not nearly as necessary as my statement. People keep trying to convince themselves that this sport is safe and it's not, hence my reminder. I thought we were in agreement on this, which makes the pointed sarcasm quite perplexing, but to each their own.

Blue skies, soft landings... in any lighting conditions.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

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[rgoper 0]

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And your sarcasm was not nearly as necessary as my statement.

the way i see it you were insulting my intelligence. so my statement stands.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Kris 0]

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the way i see it you were insulting my intelligence. so my statement stands.

He may have been stating the obvious but you can't fault him for posting the truth, Richard.

Believe it or not, there are some up-jumpers who may read that thread and think skydiving is perfectly safe.

I think it was a worthy post, in my opinion.

Kris
D-26033

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[stratostar 5]

yes I'm sure you are aware of this, but other may not be as aware as you. And yes I do believe you could have had it a long time ago by making the jumps or by signing your check as many do.
I said "people" whine & cry not "you" whine & cry
however I guess in a way I did, there seems to be a lot of folks that feel the way you do, that "we" should change the rules to fit your needs, just as there a lot who feel the way I do. If you don't want to meet the requirements for the license then you don't want the license that bad.if you don't want to do night jumps man that is fine with me I will not call anyone a pussy for not doing it!

As for jumping with or with out lights makes no difference to me have done both, sometimes I chose to land away from the lights in the pitch black
no big deal about it anyway it's good practice never know might have to land out on a night demo sometime.
peace dude

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[rgoper 0]

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I have been on loads that have gone up with plenty of daylight left but we haven't been able to get out of the plane until almost dark because of traffic or other issues.

just so i'm clear on this issue, you've been up on loads with "plenty of daylight" left, but the sky divers were prepared to do a night jump? why would you be prepared to do a night jump if you had "plenty of daylight left?" what would be wrong with simply not jumping, and landing with the plane if you "ran out of daylight?" personally, i have never been at any dropzone during the "beerlight" hours, and i always leave close to sunset, so the odds of me having to make a night jump are slim, and none. i salute those who have the desire, and inclination to jump out of a jumpship at night, but being bashed because it's not something i want to do is rediculous.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[stratostar 5]

DUDE chill
NO ONE is bashing you because you don't want to jump at night!
I however will bash anyone who feels that "we" need to change the rules they don't like to suit thier needs for a license they want with out having to do the work to get it.
as said before safe jumping to you in any lighting.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[rgoper 0]

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I however will bash anyone who feels that "we" need to change the rules they don't like to suit thier needs for a license they want with out having to do the work to get it.

on count one, i never made the statement that we should "change the rules" what i did say was i wish night jumps would not be required for a D license. and on another note, a side bar if you will, if i wanted a "D" license without doing the night jumps, i could get it easily. (could have had it a long time ago, and never said anything about not actually having done them or not) so your point of saying you don't agree with people who want the license, but don't want to do the work to get it is invalid in this particular circumstance, i can assure you, there are a lot of jumpers out there with "D's" who've never made a night jump in their lives. and why would you ask me to "chill" i'm totally composed, and not screaming or shouting or namecalling, etc...we'll just have to agree, to dissagree. trust me, sometime this year, i will have my night jump requirements fullfilled, and a "D" license in my possession, without "pencil whipping" it. not my style. but, it will be done at the right time, under the right circumstances, but i can assure you, it won't be in an unlit area, and there will be a well lit sky with a full moon.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[PhreeZone 15]

Sunset loads get pushed back due to inbound traffic all the time. Plus during the summer I've been on lots of loads where I pull at 13k and watched the sun set by about 5k and landed in just about as much light as I have on night jumps (via car head lights). Bringing in stadium lights is so much over kill that I wonder what help they will be to someone landing off that does'nt use them and get his night vision affected by looking at that bright light while in flight.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Kris 0]

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just so i'm clear on this issue, you've been up on loads with "plenty of daylight" left, but the sky divers were prepared to do a night jump? why would you be prepared to do a night jump if you had "plenty of daylight left?" what would be wrong with simply not jumping, and landing with the plane if you "ran out of daylight?" personally, i have never been at any dropzone during the "beerlight" hours, and i always leave close to sunset, so the odds of me having to make a night jump are slim, and none. i salute those who have the desire, and inclination to jump out of a jumpship at night, but being bashed because it's not something i want to do is rediculous.

Richard, Richard, Richard... You're putting words into my mouth.

My definition of "plenty of daylight" is getting out with time to spare on a sunset load. Not everyone jumps at a turbine DZ. We jump Cessna DZ's here in OK. We could have a longer than normal climb time, traffic hold, ATC hold, etc... Point is, shit happens.

As for not jumping, that's certainly a decision that could be made but a low-time jumper may either not fully appreciate the new set of hazards now present or may not want to be seen as less of a person / skydiver for not going.

Nobody is bashing you because you choose not to do a night jump, I merely don't agree with your argument to abolish them. Again, a D license is a choice... It is not bestowed, it is earned. One of the requirements just happens to be one that you are not comfortable with.

That's understandable, but don't bash it. If you're really that displeased with it, contact USPA, do something about it. But, until the requirements change or someone does something about it, that is what you will have to do to get yours.

Kris
D-26033

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[stratostar 5]

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I however will bash anyone who feels that "we" need to change the rules they don't like to suit thier needs for a license they want with out having to do the work to get it.

on count one, i never made the statement that we should "change the rules" what i did say was i wish night jumps would not be required for a D license. and on another note, a side bar if you will, if i wanted a "D" license without doing the night jumps, i could get it easily. (could have had it a long time ago, and never said anything about not actually having done them or not) so your point of saying you don't agree with people who want the license, but don't want to do the work to get it is invalid in this particular circumstance, i can assure you, there are a lot of jumpers out there with "D's" who've never made a night jump in their lives. and why would you ask me to "chill" i'm totally composed, and not screaming or shouting or namecalling, etc...we'll just have to agree, to dissagree. trust me, sometime this year, i will have my night jump requirements fullfilled, and a "D" license in my possession, without "pencil whipping" it. not my style. but, it will be done at the right time, under the right circumstances, but i can assure you, it won't be in an unlit area, and there will be a well lit sky with a full moon.

***
first agreed to disagree. second I can respect the fact that you have the balls to NOT "pencilwhip" it as so many do, sounds like you have a good plan stick to it, you may find that jumping under the full moon is way cool and easy to see a lot ( not as easy as daytime) but you can see other jumpers in FF & under canopy (unless it's all black canopy).
lighted landing area is a very good idea, but one might want to think about what kind of canopy they have on their back, you might not make it to the lighted landing area, you going to swoop your 88vx into a pitch black something? or sink in a 220 fury in to a black hole? I'll take the sink over the swoop!
safe swoops or sink bro

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Ron 7]

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Replying to:
Re: [jerm] Night jumps by rgoper
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No one is forced to do night jumps.



you are forced to do them to satisfy requirements for a "D" license.

No you can just never get a "D".
But you are not forced to do them.

FWIW...I have 45ish night jumps. 30 Military into total darkness 3 or 4 into "Marked" DZ's..and a couple of Demos into lit stadiums....

Do the night jumps. They are not that bad...
Should they be needed for a "D"....maybe not, but they are needed now. We have a lot more problems with the way we issue licenses now for me to worry about this smaller issue.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[crutch 0]

When you learn to drive a car, you need to learn to parallel park. How many times in your life have you parallel parked? The whole thing about a D-license is that you have been trained in and experienced "most" skydiving situations. Do we dilute the level of the program to make a 'few' cry-babies happy, I hope not. Dave brings up the best point of all. How many times is the last jump of the day delay for one reason or another and it ends up being a night-jump. More often than any of us really want to admit, so what is the big deal. For all the whiners out there, take up another sport, like bowling, but then you would problably whine about them waxing the lane too much!

blue skies,

art

[billvon 2,405]

>I don't know what your DZO's reasoning for not having lights is but it
>can't be based on anything with the words "common sense" in it.

We did a night jump back in NY on a sorta warm spring day with some snow still on the ground. The moon was full; there was really no need for lights. Between the moon and the snow on the ground it seemed no darker than a dusk jump.