Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury)

[SkySlut 0]

The ratings certification is a good thing...I would think that you agree on that, correct??? When I said crappy I or coach...I was referring to a non-aff rated "instructor" at a non-USPA dz doing aff and a non-rated coach doing coaching anywhere. That is the point I was making with the examples that I provided earlier. Without ratings there are no standards whatsoever. There need to be some standards for providing good service, otherwise its chaos. Ever met a "jumpmaster" or a student that graduated from a country that has no structured educational system for skydiving. It can be VERY scary.

[taz9420 0]

Why take a chance. Get a coach rating before you coach.

[kallend 1,623]

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I agree, but I think that there are and should be two distinctions between paying for a coach and getting some sort of "formal" education (insert your meaning here) and doing a fun jump and perhaps learning something from it from someone who is entirely safe (800 jump A license holder). I believe that they are separate things. I know plenty of 800 jump A license holders that cant fall straight down the tube.

Question: A student goes to a non-USPA DZ which practices harness hold (potentially having a JM teaching who has no ratings or qualifications other than 800 jumps/4-way all the time/good guy)...would that be equal to or safer than a student that goes to a USPA affiliated DZ that has strict requirements on qualifications and ratings of JMs/Is for their AFF program??? Just playing devils advocate.

How would you compare the value you receive jumping with (a) a USPA coach who has 120 jumps and is a fireman during the week, or (b) a non-rated skydiver who has won a nationals medal in RW and is a teacher during the week?

Do you think an RW medal winner is likely to have air skills up to the standard required of a USPA coach?

Do you think an experienced teacher is likely to have teaching skills up to the standard of a USPA coach?

This is not an abstract question, I know someone who fits profile (b) and no longer jumps with newbies since the new rules came into force.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkySlut 0]

I would think profile (b) would in theory be a better coach, given his background.

My question is...if he really enjoys coaching so much...why wouldnt this person get a rating??? or do they know it all already???

[riggerrob 558]

At thte perfect DZ there is room for fun jumping, load organizing and formal/paid coaching.

Fun jumping fits for jumpers who just want to do low pressure, knees in the breeze type skydives. The only criterian for their jump buddies should be safety.
Is the other jumper altitude aware?
Will he pull at a reasonable altitude with reasonable separation?

Jan Meyers and I disagreed last year over whether or not USPA S&TAs/Directors should "grandfather" in long time load organizers as genuine USPA coaches. I told Jan that I thought she should issue "grandfather" USPA coach ratings to the best load organizers in Southern California. Jan thought it would be a paperwork hassle.

If you are paying for coaching, your coach should have form of USPA, CSPA, BPA, Skydive U, etc. coaching credential.

[billvon 2,400]

>My question is...if he really enjoys coaching so much...why wouldnt
>this person get a rating??? or do they know it all already???

-money
-time
-distance

[SkySlut 0]

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-money
-time
-distance

Typical answer for a student that doesnt finish AFF. Everyone has obstacles to overcome in achieving a goal in life...some manage to jump over those hurdles while some sit, do nothing and complain about them.

This topic was raised in the meeting that we had regarding the coach course directors course pilot: How much should this course cost and how often should it be held & where??? There is something to be said for the level of dedication and drive it takes to get a rating and I think that it shows in the people that make the effort to be there. It means something to them, whereas, someone who is just handed a rating with no checking of qualifications etc...it doesnt mean as much and they may or may not value the rating. Time, money and distance are qualifyers for the course. If you arent willing to spend the time getting the rating...what makes you so sure that you are going to spend the time with your students??? If you dont see the value in spending money to get the rating, then how can you expect your students to see the value in paying for you to teach them something??? If you arent willing to travel for what you love...then why ask a student to??? Not everything should be handed out to you on a silver platter. So, if people arent willing to make an effort to get a rating, then why should they expect to have all the rights and privileges of the person that went through that little bit of extra effort to get that rating???

People tend to learn how they were taught (good or bad). If I had to jump through hoops for my teacher to show my skill and knowledge to achieve a goal in life...I will have much more appreciation for the success and when it is my turn to teach someone else how to achieve the same goal I would be a bit more dedicated to ensure learning of my "student". If I was just handed the rating or license or gold star for a spelling bee without the proper skill, then I am going to be pretty likely to just hand it out to the next person when I am in the position to teach.

[billvon 2,400]

>So, if people arent willing to make an effort to get a rating, then why
> should they expect to have all the rights and privileges of the
> person that went through that little bit of extra effort to get that
> rating???

I don't know why they would expect that. I just think that both experienced jumpers and coaches should be able to jump with recent graduates (assuming the S+TA or I approves of course.) If a student wants things signed off their A license card, they should get a coach. If they just want to do a 2-way, then an experienced jumper might be cheaper and easier to find.

Jumping with new jumpers is not a right. It is a duty. I was taught to do RW that way; I teach people in return. That's the way it should work (in my opinion.)

[Scrumpot 1]

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Everyone has obstacles to overcome in achieving a goal in life...some manage to jump over those hurdles while some sit, do nothing and complain about them.

Slut,
For some people (like in my case) it's just NOT a (personal choice) goal is all. However, to be otherwise completely "DISALLOWED" (from jumping with low-timers from time-to-time) ENTIRELY doesn't seem to make much sense either. We seem to keep straying off of that one central discussion point.

Certainly not a "sitting & complaining" thing. Just something that I thought (in initiating this string) that might be worthy of some discussion & consideration. Why does ANYBODY "HAVE TO" get their D's? Why does anybody "HAVE TO" get their coach's, or JM or AFF/I or I/E ratings for that matter, JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE OUT THERE? My contention is simply that they don't. Does that make these people any less a jumper (or qualified to jump with a low-timer)? Maybe in your eyes, but not mine.

Blues,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[skreamer 1]

You've been corrected already, but just about every point you made about the BPA system was wrong. Who fed you all this 'info'?

[PhreeZone 15]

Cost to me to get my coaches rating was more then some people pay for their tandem or AFF ratings ($70 per jump for 8 jumps plus a 250 coach fee). I took the time off work, I did everything that was asked... but since me and the CCD have some issues I never got the rating since he's not willing to sign off on it anymore. Why am I not as qualified with out the little piece of paper as I would be with it?

I'm glad my DZ ignores that silly "rule" the USPA has and I play with students all the time.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[kallend 1,623]

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I would think profile (b) would in theory be a better coach, given his background.

My question is...if he really enjoys coaching so much...why wouldnt this person get a rating??? or do they know it all already???

Maybe he doesn't see the point in spending the $$$ and time on something that he has no wish to make any income from.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

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Quote

-money
-time
-distance

Typical answer for a student that doesnt finish AFF. Everyone has obstacles to overcome in achieving a goal in life...some manage to jump over those hurdles while some sit, do nothing and complain about them.

But this isn't a goal in his life - it was just something he used to do with newbies because he enjoyed it and thought it was valuable.

Now he just jumps with the experienced folks and his team.

Quote

This topic was raised in the meeting that we had regarding the coach course directors course pilot: How much should this course cost and how often should it be held & where??? There is something to be said for the level of dedication and drive it takes to get a rating and I think that it shows in the people that make the effort to be there. It means something to them, whereas, someone who is just handed a rating with no checking of qualifications etc...it doesnt mean as much and they may or may not value the rating. Time, money and distance are qualifyers for the course. If you arent willing to spend the time getting the rating...what makes you so sure that you are going to spend the time with your students??? If you dont see the value in spending money to get the rating, then how can you expect your students to see the value in paying for you to teach them something??? If you arent willing to travel for what you love...then why ask a student to??? Not everything should be handed out to you on a silver platter. So, if people arent willing to make an effort to get a rating, then why should they expect to have all the rights and privileges of the person that went through that little bit of extra effort to get that rating???

So you are saying that someone who's been a teacher for 30 years hasn't made as much effort to learn teaching skills as a new USPA coach who learned all s/he knows from a 3-day course?

Someone who won a Nationals medal in RW hasn't made as much effort to develop and demonstrate flying skills as a new USPA coach?

I think you are deluding yourself.

If you were a coach course director, what exactly would you teach a professional teacher who enrolled in your course about teaching techniques and learning styles?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 3]

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If you were a coach course director, what exactly would you teach a professional teacher who enrolled in your course about teaching techniques and learning styles?

The simple answer is -- the standardized way to do it.

I don't care how many teaching degrees a person has, if they want to be an airplane flight instructor, then they have to learn how the FAA wants you to teach certain things.

Skydiving -- same sort of thing.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 1,623]

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If you were a coach course director, what exactly would you teach a professional teacher who enrolled in your course about teaching techniques and learning styles?

The simple answer is -- the standardized way to do it.

I don't care how many teaching degrees a person has, if they want to be an airplane flight instructor, then they have to learn how the FAA wants you to teach certain things.

Skydiving -- same sort of thing.

Since you come to mention it, another guy I know is a CFII and has a Nationals RW medal, he isn't a coach either, so can't jump with newbies.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 3]

I'm not really trying to defend it, just show the logic from the other side.

Clearly there IS a USPA approved method for doing the things that a person with a "Coach Rating" would have had exposure to.

BTW, what do you think of "Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four"?

Ok, same thing and I'll agree that it has to do with who is in charge of what. Certainly Mr. Potter is more than qualified to teach a short course in the Defense Against the Dark Arts, but it's an unapproved syllabus from which he'll be teaching.

Again, it's all about standardization. In some instances, it's a good thing and in others it's a bad thing.

Look at the spin training thread -- lot's of wiggle room there eh? Same deal.

Or stick time with a non-CFI. What about that?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 1,623]

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I'm not really trying to defend it, just show the logic from the other side.

Clearly there IS a USPA approved method for doing the things that a person with a "Coach Rating" would have had exposure to.

BTW, what do you think of "Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four"?

I take Umbridge at that comment.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkySlut 0]

Thank you Quade...

I think that this discussion has gotten a bit off topic but this has been a great one to get into. Here is the thing. One, I dont agree with the USPA on how the coach's course is run. But the fact is:the rules of the USPA are rules...until that changes...tough doodies. The USPA is trying to put order to chaos. Controlling skydivers is like trying to heard cats. I think that the ratings system is sound but needs some tweaking (coach course and course director appointments being the two major problems). I have no problems with people jumping with newbies...I encourage it and do it myself. Its a great thing!!! My point is...if you are going to be doing this fulltime or get paid for coaching...you owe yourself and your student the respect to take the course. What is the big deal??? I was and am always excited to have the chance to learn something new. A non rated coach/instructor cant sign off on the A license card. I think that US jumpers have a long way to go to transition from an old school mentality and work towards educating themselves about adult learning and teaching techniques.

Major problem with skydiving in the US: I am under the assumption that we are all in the sport to have fun and meet and interact with friends. A student gets into the sport and finishes AFF, gets their A license and is thrust out into the skydiving world. There are 3 options. 1, they get frustrated by not having the skills to interact in the air with their friends and quit the sport...which we dont need. 2, they immediately start freeflying without proper training, equipment or skills and hurt themselves, others or end up in the incident reports or 3, they get lucky and attend a forward thinking dz and get a mentor program, free coaching, etc. Those are few and far in between. Either way...2 out of the 3 situations are bad for the students and sport all around. I believe that USPA is trying to formalize what is going on at the progressive dzs. A little late, yes, but in a good direction...yes.

Point being, the student/coach program needs to have changes...progressive dzs have already made these changes. The rest of the country is left behind in the dust with dated teaching methods and potentially dangerous graduates.

I cant believe I am saying this but, we actually have to work within the USPA to make these changes. It just sounds strange having a bunch of free thinkers (skydivers) having rules and regulations. Discussions like this are extremely valuable. The rules and regulations are the rules and regulations...if we dont govern ourselves than someone else will. I dont want that...do you??? I guess that its the lesser of two evils...so lets continue this discussion. I wish that we were all sitting aroung the fire to get this really hammered out...this internet thing is great in some ways, but sucks in others.

[diverdriver 5]

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Since you come to mention it, another guy I know is a CFII and has a Nationals RW medal, he isn't a coach either, so can't jump with newbies.

You're not talking about me are you?

[sducoach 0]

Barry,

Change is like pushing the rope. Remember my friend, our frame of reference is entirely different form most "coaches" or prospective coaches or just a guy who calls him/herself a coach.

What we are looking for and need, are as Quade stated, standards and an objective way to judge those standards.

Hang in there bro.

Blues,

J.E.

P.S.

Chris, no he is not talking about you....................
Give a guy a pat on the back and he post his picture on the DZ.C!!!
(Jealousy is an ugly animal............ that is why my picture is not posted????!!!!)

James 4:8

[SkySlut 0]

OK...enough complaining about this. Lets switch to a more proactive gear. What do we need to change in the "system"?

My ideas:
1) The coach rating-basic coach rating for those who dont really want to teach rw, but need it to get their tandem rating, etc. Have an advanced coaching rating that is geared towards people interested in actual rw coaching.
2) Maybe make some changes in the ISP in regards to really training a student to fly rather than just gives them survival skills. I know, money, money, money...we can discuss that later.
3) Make some changes in the SIM so it is more clear on who can jump with who...tough one, but I am sure that we can make this happen.

Ideas????

EDIT:Yes, I know that I am "borrowing" from CSPA and BPA.

[Tonto 1]

Our system is near identical to this.
7 AFF Insructor levels
3 solo consolidation dives, of which the last is a 3 sec delay from 4500 (Cat 1)
2 Throw-out conversion jumps (We do AFF on ripcords)
7 coach dives to ensure minimum safety requirements before they are released to jump with others of the same experience level. This seems quite similar to the ISP.
The 4 point 4 way is a B licence requirement for FS jumpers. B licence requires 75 jumps. That jump is usually completed with 3 senior jumpers, one of which is an instructor, or video must be taken of the dive and shown to the CI.

It's the year of the Pig.

[billvon 2,400]

>Maybe make some changes in the ISP in regards to really training a
> student to fly rather than just gives them survival skills.

The ISP is intended as a mandatory progression to teach lifesaving skills. Why force a future freeflyer or CRW dog to learn 4-way?

[SkySlut 0]

Here is my theory (not exclusive to me, in fact many freefly coaches & the windtunnel will not instruct you until you show competence on your belly): RW is the basics. The physics of flying are essentially the same for freelying...the only major difference is that the speeds and therefore the dangers inherent in flying at those speeds are greater. As far as CRW...I know that techinically you dont need too much experience...but it cant hurt. I do honestly believe that a good basis in RW is beneficial for FF training...if not only for safety reasons.

Some FF coaches in Florida wont coach you unless you have 200 jumps...they take it pretty seriously.

[billvon 2,400]

>RW is the basics. The physics of flying are essentially the same for freelying...

The basic physics, yes. The application is completely different. Knowing RW doesn't make you a good freeflyer and vice versa.

>the only major difference is that the speeds and therefore the
>dangers inherent in flying at those speeds are greater.

If that were true, I'd be pretty good at freeflying, with 3000 some odd RW jumps. I'm not. No doubt I could become much better at it if I worked at it, but I haven't done so so far, because I'm generally having too much fun at RW.

>Some FF coaches in Florida wont coach you unless you have 200
>jumps...they take it pretty seriously.

Does that mean 200 RW jumps? If you have 200 sitfly jumps will they refuse to take you?