The Bladder Cops Question

[skr 1]

One of the local DZOs here just announced that he will be doing
drug testing - in the name of safety.

As I think about this it seems to me that

- Drug testing and safety have nothing to do with each other

- The real motive here is advertising, and, by implication,
putting the other drop zones in a bad light


Safety is about training and procedure and attitude and custom
and paying attention.

Drug tests are about pissing in a cup and looking for metabolites.

Alcohol, cocaine, heroin, speed, all pass through the body in
24 - 48 hours and leave no metabolites. Marijuana is the only
one that leaves traces easily found by urinalysis.


The only point of contact here is impairment while actually
jumping. Impairment from lack of sleep, life stress, lack of
currency, being loaded, are all valid concerns, but pissing
in a cup two months before has nothing to do with that.


So this looks to me like a ploy for advertising and attacking
the other dropzones.

----

Another point that comes to me is the presumption of guilt,
and the unwarranted intrusion into people's private lives.

As I watch the news and hear of the troops crossing the
Tigris and Euphrates and going into Baghdad I am struck
by how many conquering armies have walked that same ground.

And in all those thousands of years, empire after empire,
not once has there been a presumption of innocent until
proven guilty, until recently, the last couple hundred years,
right here in America.


And now, people are willing to just casually toss that aside,
like it means nothing.

----

The false connection between safety and pissing in a cup
also comes out as

- "If you're against drug testing then you must be
against safety."

- "Only drug users have a problem with drug tests."

Another one you hear is

- "If you have nothing to hide, what are you afraid of?"

It's hard to answer such people because it's hard to imagine
what they could be thinking of.

Have they never heard of the persecutions, the witch hunts,
the pogroms, the communist under every bed? Have they never
heard

- They came for the Jews, and I said nothing.

- They came for the communists, and I said nothing.

- They came for ... several other groups ... and I said nothing.

- Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

----

Sometimes I hear "Everybody's doing it, so it must be OK.".

Well, my mother was no constitutional scholar, but even she
knew better than that.

Other times I hear "He can run his business any way he wants.".

But the point here is that if he were actually interested in
safety he would interact with his employees and know how
they were doing.

----

The only possible point I can see in all this is the whuffo jury.

But I was on a jury once, in a medical malpractice case, in which
I am a total whuffo.

Now it was much harder to listen to the whole thing before forming
opinions than I expected. And I had serious difficulty taking the
show the lawyers put on as the only evidence, I kept wanting to
raise my hand and ask questions.

And some of the jurors really were unthinking whuffos. But when
we got in the room alone there were 6 or 7 who had been paying
attention and took it seriously, and after about 3 days we came
to a conclusion that I thought was well thought out and correct.

----

So I'm for safety in terms of training and procedure and attitude
and custom and paying attention.

But I'm not for people pissing in a cup as some kind of phony
appearance of safety.

Skr

[wmw999 2,122]

Oh my. Is that for staff, or for everyone? As someone who is subject to piss testing (I was bought by a company that does it), I find it to be, frankly, tacky. It removes responsibility from the employee, and places it on the employer.

But, I'll admit I haven't voted with my feet yet -- they're too well-paid for me to do that.

And we do it in the name of "safety" too. And you're right, they're not closely related.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[diverdriver 5]

Skratch,

I respect you very much for your view points. I will take the counter-point though. Since I am familiar with the aviation industries current drug testing policy I feel that I can comment on the introduction of drug testing in skydiving.

One, this should be for staff only. Pre-employment testing is one level of it. I feel that if you can't help yourself from using in the 30 days prior to taking the test then you might have trouble keeping clean while working for the outfit.

Two, the idea of random drug testing is a deterent and may keep some people from using that otherwise would use freely (but probably not during actual jumping) while employed at the DZ.

Three, post accident/incident testing is also a deterent to using. While no one plans to have a student injured they know it's a reality of the sport. In any other industry that has drug testing you have to get tested for any injury while on the job. Period. This concept goes along with the zero tollerance policy that a company could lay out. I cut my finger one time and had to have two whole stiches. And I had to pee in a cup. I don't see it as an invasion of my privacy. I don't use. I don't want to work with people that use that could be impaired while working thus increasing my chances of them injuring me while at work.

Four, you don't have to work for that company if you don't want to. Don't like the idea of drug testing? Fine. There are a vast majority of DZs that don't drug test. You can work for them

Five, lawsuits. Look at the problem with the tandem master in California that tested positve for marijuana in the system. There was a lot of legal wrangling over that case whether he was actually high at the time or not. Your ass is in the sling if the deceased TM test positive for anything.

Look at SDC now. We had two fatalities in a years time that tested positive for drugs in the system. One was most certainly high at the time of his demise. Many on here blanket accused the whole DZ of being high while skydiving. The image is horrible especially when you know that most people do not jump high or after using. But does it happen? Yes. Drug testing probably would only have changed the outcome of one of these two fatalities at SDC. Only one was employed by the DZ. But then again, what is one life worth? Many on here called for or implied that there had to be changes at the DZ in order to gain respect of the community. So how do you change? I can talk until I'm blue in the face yet I have people still trying to swoop in front of the otter while engines are running or they want to climb on top of the otter after I have strictly forbid them from doing it. What then? Why can't adults act like adults? I'm sorry, but a few have spoiled it for the rest. That's just the way it is. Because some people couldn't control themselves and SELF POLICE themselves from doing drugs or drinking before jumping then the rest will pay the price. It is unfortunate but that's our modern world.

If people always listened to the boss and didn't jump while high or drunk or hung over from being high or drunk then these messures would not be necessary. Again, I find it hard to apologize for adults. They are supposed to be adults right? They are supposed to concider how their actions effect other people, especially their employer. The DZ has a right to protect its' assets. Lose a lawsuit to the deceased tandem passenger's family and you can lose your whole operation. Do we as fun jumpers want that? Do we have the right to tell the owner of the business who has layed out all the risk to run a business that he can't drug test?

I think it's all up to the DZO and the people that want to work there. We are in the transportation industry whether we want to admit it or not. We are carrying the general public and they have a right to have some assurances that the people transporting them are clean and not hung over.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[loughery 0]

There is a Cafe that just opened up 1.5 hrs from here that lets you smoke grass.
In Canada we are on the verge of grass becomming legal. There have been a few judges throwing possession charges out of court because there is no law against it any more. If you are caught with less than 30 g it will be confiscated and fined but not charged.
If anything they shoud legalize Grass and outlaw Liquor.

TOT

TOT
www.SkydiveMoncton.com

To my wife: 'If you ask me to stop skydiving, you are asking me to move out!'

[flyangel2 2]

Quote

We are carrying the general public and they have a right to have some assurances that the people transporting them are clean and not hung over.

But is drug testing going to show if a JM has been out all night drinking and is working with student's hung over. IMO, being hung over is just as bad slowing reaction time down. And what about the JM that didn't get very much sleep the night before cause he/she was up all night. Lack of sleep is also dangerous, and that doesn't show up on drug testing. Where is the line drawn? Skratch makes some very good points. I guess the skydivers in the area are going to have to do some soul searching and ask themselves if they are willing to support that DZ. Only time will tell. Can most skydivers really stand by their convictions when it comes to making a skydive?

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Can most skydivers really stand by their convictions when it comes to making a skydive?

Check out some of my "What would you do if?" posts. Most skydivers couldn't care less if it doesn't affect them. Non-instructors at the DZ won't stop going to a DZ to protest an Instructor drug testing policy. I think Skratch is right in that this is going to be used as a marketing ploy.

Hook

[sundevil777 93]

Vote for lawmakers that support tort (liability) reform.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[jdfreefly 1]

My problem with scratch's post is that he attempts to connect workplace drug testing as a violation of an employee's rights.

DZOs own dzs so they can make money. Drug tests cost money. If a DZO is willing to commence drug testing, they must feel that the benefit outweighs the cost. It is their bussiness. Theirs to run as they see fit. If you don't like it, as an employee, find a job somewhere else. If you don't like it as a jumper, don't jump there.

I plan to start working at my DZ this year and the "drug testing" rumor has circulated every year I have jumped there. I really don't care what they do as long as it is made clear to me what is going to happen ahead of time.

We like to think of the dz we jump or work at as "ours". It isn't.

The people that run drop sones are saints. They endure fun jumpers who feel the sport owes them something for sticking with it, and prima dona staff who think they should write the rules. Without them, we would all be sitting on the ground.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[indyz 1]

Quote

So this looks to me like a ploy for advertising and attacking
the other dropzones.

The following is a quote from the 04/01/01 edition of SDC's Weekly Update email newsletter, written by Roger Nelson, the DZO.

Quote

Next week we will begin drug and alcohol testing all tandem masters, pilots, and packers and anyone else that has a position of such importance in the operation. I have already been criticized on this so "let me say this about that". This is an independent testing center in Ottawa, I will be the first to test, and I will test with the staff throughout the season. This is mandatory and anyone not passing or refusing will have to find work at the places that do not require sober drug free instructors, pilots and packers.

I try my best not to read too far into things, but that last sentence seems to serve mostly to imply that DZs that do not require drug testing of staff are effectively condoning drug and alchohol use.

[Tf15 0]

Quote

As I watch the news and hear of the troops crossing the
Tigris and Euphrates and going into Baghdad I am struck
by how many conquering armies have walked that same ground.

And in all those thousands of years, empire after empire,
not once has there been a presumption of innocent until
proven guilty, until recently, the last couple hundred years,
right here in America.


Skr

Not true - that concept was inherited from English Common Law.

And on to the main point - I prefer not to jump with people who are high on anything other than altitude.

Three times is enemy action

[Tf15 0]

Quote

Quote

So this looks to me like a ploy for advertising and attacking
the other dropzones.

The following is a quote from the 04/01/01 edition of SDC's Weekly Update email newsletter, written by Roger Nelson, the DZO.

Quote

Next week we will begin drug and alcohol testing all tandem masters, pilots, and packers and anyone else that has a position of such importance in the operation. I have already been criticized on this so "let me say this about that". This is an independent testing center in Ottawa, I will be the first to test, and I will test with the staff throughout the season. This is mandatory and anyone not passing or refusing will have to find work at the places that do not require sober drug free instructors, pilots and packers.

I try my best not to read too far into things, but that last sentence seems to serve mostly to imply that DZs that do not require drug testing of staff are effectively condoning drug and alchohol use.

Infer what you like, I think it's a good policy. And if that inference pressures other DZs to follow suit, that's all the better.

Three times is enemy action

[Tasadin 0]

This could work the other way too, if you are known take drugs recreationally and there is an incident your involved in but you know yu havent had anything in ages it could benefit you too, especially if you come out of the test clean. THe Royal Navy has been drug testing people for a few years nwo and you would be suprised how many we still cathc. Admittedly its illegal in the navy to take it. I would be happy to know that the people who are instructing/packing/flying were in pretty reaonable shape to do their jobs cos its my life at stake. But i agree out all night on the booze and working with hangovers lack of sleep can be equally as harmful. And on that note the royal navy is also thinking about breathalising all watchkeepers prior to sailing to ensure they arent suffering from the ill effects of the night before.

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."

[riggerrob 558]

When they develop ways to accurately test for fatigue, stress, hangover, caffeine, cocaine, amphetamines. etc. then I will cheerfully submit to drug testing.
The current situation is a farce.
This reminds me of some statistics I read a few years ago. The gist of it was that maybe 1% of pilots tested positive for drugs. Less that 5% of aircraft mechanics tested positive for drugs. Less than 15% of airline management tested positive for drugs, but a whopping 45% of people working for drug testing companies tested positive for drugs!
It seems that their paranoa is creating a new industry.

[markbaur 0]

Quote

As I watch the news and hear of the troops crossing the
Tigris and Euphrates and going into Baghdad I am struck
by ...

the contrast between these highly trained, highly motivated soldiers who are subject to random drug testing, and the troops from pre-testing days.
Drug testing and safety may not have anything to do with each other, but drug use and reduced safety are definitely related.
Mark

[covey 0]

John do you not care anything about personal liberties???

Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide

[covey 0]

If I am not mistaken you have to be a legal adult or have one present at the time of your jump. I have been around enough people that are messed up on various substances legal and not. Also people stressed out and sleep deprived. You can tell when you're not comfortable around someone. If you get to a DZ and the vibe isn't right then leave and go somewhere else. If the pilot can't find his way to the plane then this should be a sign. If the TM or JM can't speak in complete sentences or keep to one topic. Cut away. Why is it that we as adults always want someone to watch out for us? Look within yourself for the answers.

Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide

[betzilla 56]

Our DZ just inplemented random drug testing of staff (not fun jumpers) too, along with the rigging loft/packing concession.

I think it's a great idea, but I don't smoke weed or do any illegals, so it's easy for me to feel that way.

But last year we had 2 fatalities here, and in both cases, we worried about what would be found in the drug tests. Both jumpers were on staff here. I know that one of the coroners reports was clean (the other may have been too, but I can't recall). We got lots (LOTS) of bad press last year, and definitely drug testing the staff is a really good way to try to keep that from happening.

So in my DZ's case, it's not about "putting the other DZs in a bad light," as much as trying to put ours in a good light.

Quote

Safety is about training and procedure and attitude and custom and paying attention.

Call me naive, but it seems like it would be pretty tough to pay careful attention to procedure if you're buzzed, or to have a safe attitude.

I wouldn't want an instructor taking my mom on a jump who i knew routinely used drugs, and the same goes for a rigger or packer working on my rig.


It's not clear to me whether you're saying your DZ is also going to test fun jumpers. That seems a little heavy-handed to me, but if they are, and you don't like it, go someplace else.

I have absolutely NO problem with drug testing instructors, riggers and on-staff packers.

[WFFC 1]

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It's not clear to me whether you're saying your DZ is also going to test fun jumpers.

They are not.

[Tf15 0]

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John do you not care anything about personal liberties???

This is not a government mandate, it's a requirement by a business owner on the people that he or she employs to look after the safety of his (or her) customers. Liberties also apply to business owners in the way they run their businesses, provided it's within the law. If the staff object, they are at liberty to go elsewhere.

I see it as no different from the requirements that I turn up on time for my job, and do what the boss asks of me (which included working on Sunday today, when I'd rather be at the DZ). If I don't like that, I can look for employment elsewhere.

If mandatory drug testing were a government requirement on all citizens then I'd agree that would constitute an invasion of privacy.

Three times is enemy action

[Tf15 0]

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If I am not mistaken you have to be a legal adult or have one present at the time of your jump. I have been around enough people that are messed up on various substances legal and not. Also people stressed out and sleep deprived. You can tell when you're not comfortable around someone. If you get to a DZ and the vibe isn't right then leave and go somewhere else. If the pilot can't find his way to the plane then this should be a sign. If the TM or JM can't speak in complete sentences or keep to one topic. Cut away. Why is it that we as adults always want someone to watch out for us? Look within yourself for the answers.

You must be joking. You can have seriously impaired judgement and reflexes without showing signs of disorientation or being inarticulate. If being articulate was a good test of competence then George Bush would not be President. The customer should not be put in the position of having to make this call about a total stranger.

Three times is enemy action

[AndyMan 7]

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Infer what you like, I think it's a good policy. And if that inference pressures other DZs to follow suit, that's all the better.

My objection, is despite what the email implies, their biggest compeditor (well, only compeditor, actually) DOES have a drug test policy, and had it on the books years before Skydive Chicago did.

I firmly believe this policy is nothing more then marketing, Rogers attempt to clean his image. It will be interesting to see how broadly it is applied. It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[covey 0]

My apologies John. I mis-read your post and mis-took it as talking about blanketing all DZs. As in a government mandate. I am all for a private business owner having complete control of his business. Even to the point of getting rid of equal opportunity. Until I am willing to put my money on the line and start my own business up, I have no right saying what someone else does with theirs. If G W Bush was my JM there is no way I would jump with him. There are several other drugs out there that will never show up on a regular urinalysis. Depression, stress, and sleep deprivation can not be tested either. Unless the do the test every morning it isn't going to really stop much except marijuana use. So you have to ask is it truly for your safety? Or does it just fall under the CYA category?

Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide

[JYorkster 0]

If no one EVER jumped high, then of course this testing would not be necessary. Unfortunately, not all adults ACT like adults. I would be willing to bet that many more people jump high than we like to admit.

Why do I believe this? Look at the number of people in this country who drive while intoxicated. Everyone knows it's dangerous, but many people believe they are OK enough to drive. I think it is the same with many drug-using skydivers. Sure there are also those that keep the two activities separate, but do you want to trust your life to assuming that the guy you are jumping with is mature enough to make the right decision?

Though I agree with many of your points, I say again: If people weren't doing it, we wouldn't have to test for it.

Rock

[eeneR 1]

It is not just SDC doing this...there are a few DZ's that are drug testing. I personally think it is something that should be in place. Im sorry that some people feel that this is an obstruction of privacy, however at this point these drugs are still considered illegal in the U.S. (with the exception of boose). You choose to play you must be willing to pay.

Just as I think truck drivers, pilots, bus drivers etc need to do this, others lives are in their hands. There is no room for error. I dont think it is fare to the students to take the risk of the possible chance the TM or JM is a drug user...Heck all professional athletes are tested, as far as im concerned JM and TM are really professional athletes....

As for this being a marketing ploy, maybe it is...we had two jumpers go in with drugs in the blood stream. He needs to save face and show that he is doing something to resolve the problem.

Andy, Im glad to hear that chicagoland tests. Im sorry you took it as a jab to your DZ about the drug testing, when really it does not apply to you guys since your testing already.

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[diverdriver 5]

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It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

_Am

Bad taste in your mouth? I don't believe you work for Roger so I wouldn't sweat it. Those that do work for Roger will have the decision to make. And yes, I do hope it will be applied evenly. Time will tell. But I know that after being criticized pretty good for the events in the past year that being criticized for beginning drug testing was the last thing we expected. I guess we'll just have to press forward and hope for the best.

Chris

edited to add: I didn't think this thread started out about Roger's drug testing policy. I believe it was another DZ.