Cutaway procedures change?

[bigbearfng 9]

Hmmm, where do I start....
Jump #15, (first 4 10yr ago, recently back and repeated aff level 5 twice) , today, first solo, took packing class, first my own pack job....and first cutaway.
I know-I screwed up-didn't set brake correctly on one side-then didn't try unstowing brakes to attempt correcting the turn/spin. First jump on demo gear, not student gear, and I had no idea that a canopy could turn/accelerate to what I perceived as a spin....
Don't worry, I've already beat myself up on this one....keep replaying it-don't plan on a repeat!!...(plus in the back of my mind was that it was my own first pack job!)
Anyway-once I said to myself "this ain't landable" and I pictured stories of other folk spiraling into the ground without doing anything and altitude rapidly going down....I grabbed red with both hands, looked at silver and pulled (as taught)-and got tossed; tried to keep looking at silver and grab silver-with being tossed there was no way I could con't to see silver! It took me a couple seconds to grab it and pull. (no rsl, but yes aad-didn't fire).
Now I've heard of folk grabbing both handles, one each hand, instead of both hands to one at a time....I can now see the merits! As a real fng-I welcome any comments/suggestions regarding merits of either method! BTW-after this-I would never consider anything other than a d-ring for the reserve handle; I really doubt I could of found a pillow very fast....
Thanks for any input!

[Fast 0]

I just want to say, that there are many reasons to cutaway, and there are some situations where you may have gotten away with not cuting, but your alive to come ask the people on the forums, and well... thats a good thing.

As to your questions, I'll let that to somone with more experience than me.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Ruffles 0]

I'm a FNG as well, but those are my cutaway procedures (Grab both and pull one at a time) for those very reasons.
Drawback is, when you are spazzing, you may dislodge silver before red, and that's no good from what they tell me. I also know other people who use the same method. No one has ever gotten on my shit about it. I think either one is acceptable. Glad you're OK brother.
BTW- Better you cut that thing away than struggling with it all the way to the ground. With that whole adrenalin thing going, you might have never figured out what was wrong. Things could have ended much worse.

[TaeKwonDoDo 0]

It's better to chop and be wrong, then to not chop and become an active thread in the incidents forum...

Nice Job!

Oh, and... BEER

- Jeff

p.s., no chops yet, but jumping my first pack-job this weekend. , and practicing handel pulls in my mind all week ... I know... BEER.

"That's not flying, it's falling with style."

[mikemc 0]

sorry for asking and maybe someone with more experience will put me straight....

as you are still a student:

why were you using "demo" gear?

note: originaly asked why own pack job, but edited it out as stupid question!!!

[Mar 0]

You will probably get answers from Instructors as well (I hope!!), but here is what I've learned: as a student, do not change the reserveprocedure you've learned.
You will only get confused and you're bound to make mistakes up there; not very advisable.

I read a story once of a student that came back to the skies after some 10 years or so. He claimed to have forgotten his former reserveprocedure. He learned a new one. But some time later, when he decided to do a cutaway, he flawlessly went to back to what he had learned at his first course!
Apparently, what has once been drilled into you, somehow sticks in you as sort of a muscle memory thing.

Now I know that there are some instances that you HAVE to change procedure (e.g. tandemmasters), but as a general rule I'd say; stick to what is already there in your mind; you'll be safer that way. (even if a cutaway takes a little more time than it might have done had you used the other method.)

B safe!

[wmw999 2,126]

I've had to change emergency procedures (I was trained with shot-and-a-hald capewells, and did all of my cutaways on either R2s or 2-ring). I'm still here.

Practice, but more importantly, think about exactly what you're going to do on the way up, and include a moment (a very short one) to just think first.

Sometimes it's faster in the long run to think/analyze a situation for a second than just to react.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ron 7]

Congradulations on not dying.

I often tell people that I always wonder about them as skydivers until they have had a malfuction.

I have seen a few people with many jumps freakout and bounce. I can guess you are not going to be one of those.

I like the two handed method for just this reason.
I was tought this way, but I do think it is best and its the way I teach.

First you have to realize that it will be very hard to change the way you do cutaway...Not impossible, but hard.

You have to have a reason (you do) for the change, and you have to drill the hell out of it. I have almost 3,000 jumps, and probley 10,000 practice malfunctions (6 real). I practice my reserve procedures at least once per jump, and often times many times per jump.

The practice can be a full on "close your eyes and pretend you have a mal" to "handle touch and practice pull drill".

1. Right hand Main touch & pretend pull (I say shit! to myself here since I will when it happens right?)
2. LOOK! Right hand Cutaway grab
3. LOOK! Left hand Reserve grab and pretend right peel and pull/ left peel and pull.
4. Since your here, practice KEPPING your handles as well.

I sometimes don't even pretend to pull anymore, it is just a touch drill. I do it on the way to the boarding area, on the way to the A/C and as I get ready to climb out. It also serves as a handle check for me.

So thats at least 3 for every jump.

Practice is the only way it will become natural.

A session in a hanging harness will help as well.

Everytime you get a reserve repack from now on pull your handles (in the presence of your rigger so he can watch).

Just drill the hell out of it, and it will change...If not you will fall back to your old method which will work.

Good Luck, and again congrats on not making an impact on your DZ.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[XWuffo 0]

***I have almost 3,000 jumps, and probley 10,000 practice malfunctions (6 real).

Quote

Ron, thanks for always taking the time to post such useful information for students.
Please can you elaborate on your 6 'real' malfunctions, and illustrate how drilling your procedures helped you in those situations ?
ie. did you do all 6 incidents perfectly ?

As we in Africa know - "If you're going to be dumb - you'd better be tough."
- Tonto

• Quote

[nightjumps 1]

There are advantages and disadvantages to the one-handed (one hand to each handle) and the two-handed method (two hands on each handle).

At our DZ we teach the one-handed method for students since they are jumping large squares at no more than .75 wing-loading.

As they progress, we teach the two-handed method since heavily loaded ellipticals with a line-over can induce a spin and subsequent line twists that can require additional force to extract the cutaway cables. We do preach riser hard housings, but that doesn't always result in their being purchased.

As Ron states, whichever method you finally choose as "most comfortable" for you... the key is to practice them with such frequency that the methodology becomes rote.

I too, practice emergency procedures prior to boarding the A/C, on the way up and a couple of times prior to exit. An interesting by-product of my practicing emergency procedures is that when everyone else sees me doing it over & over on the A/C, others will start doing it also.

I also close my eyes and "feel" my gear. I place my hands on the main lift web above and below to do a follow until found... not unlike teaching the follow the legstrap until you reach the main ripcord handle instruction just for the scenario you mentioned of not being able to see one or the other handles.

Practice, practice, practice.

Finally, one example I can give you of how well practicing works is; The owner of Skydive Tulsa did 104 skydives in 12 hours earlier this year... gettiing out at 2500 and dumping at 2100. On one dive, he had a pilot chute in tow (or hesitancy... it was hard to tell since he was using the count method and it was cutaway), his hands were so fast at cutting away and pulling the reserve handle, that on a frame-by-frame review of the video, it was less than one second between cutting away and firing the reserve handle. We had to watch the frame-by-frame more than once just to see that both handles weren't pulled simultaneously. That comes from practice.

[riddler 0]

There are plenty of more experienced jumpers that were taught the two-handed method. I was taught one at a time, just like you. There is a reason this is taught. The procedure you learned is the safest for a student with your gear.

The advantages and disadvantages have been described in other posts. Think about what happens when things go wrong:

1. Two-handed method, one handle at a time. You pull the cutaway, and can't find the reserve. This is most likely because you were not looking at the reserve handle prior to cutaway. At this point, your RSL (if you have one) should activate the reserve. If you don't have one or still can't find that reserve handle, the AAD should eventually fire. No, you can't count on RSL or ADD to save your life, but there is a very high probability they both will.

2. One-handed method, one hand on each handle. You mistakenly pull reserve first, then cutaway - something that is not uncommon in a stressful situation like a malfunction. In this case, the reserve is open and out before the main is released. There is a potential of a main/reserve entanglement, and then neither of your canopies work. What happens if you cutaway after your two canopies become entagled? I believe the entanglement will probably get worse, not better - but that's probably a better question for CReW people This is not to say an entanglement will always occur. I watched a jumper with 100 jumps pull silver first at 1500 feet because he had a long snivel and didn't think he had time to cutaway. His reserve opened fine and then he chopped the main. But the chance of entanglement is significant - he was lucky.

Of these two situations, which would you rather have go wrong?

I'm surprised that a manufacturer would give someone with 15 jumps a demo rig that didn't have an RSL option at least. But what do I know?

[riddler 0]

Quote

At our DZ we teach the one-handed method for students since they are jumping large squares at no more than .75 wing-loading.

I've never heard this - why is the one-handed method safer on a low loaded square canopy?

[Ron 7]

Quote

Ron, thanks for always taking the time to post such useful information for students.
Please can you elaborate on your 6 'real' malfunctions, and illustrate how drilling your procedures
helped you in those situations ?
ie. did you do all 6 incidents perfectly ?

Sure.

1. Stiletto 120, Javelin NJ, 600ish jumps, line twist. Reason: I pack like crap. Normal cutaway

2. Stiletto 107, Javelin NJ, 1100ish jumps, Line twist.
Reason: I still pack like shit. Normal cutaway.

3. See above except on Javelin XRS.
Reason: I continue to pack like shit. In no way normal...To read about it peep

Here

4. I know I have 6, but don't remember this one....I don't have my logbook handy, but I bet it went just like #2...I still packed like shit.

5. St107, Jav XRS, 1800 or so jumps, line knot.
Reason: Probley packing, but I did start to pack better.

6. Velocity 96, Vector Micron, 2,500 jumps
Reason: I didn't pack it HAH!!!! Story follows:

My last cut away was line twist under a Velocity 96. It was not spinning, and I was kicking out of the
twists....But, I was at 1,200 feet, and over the industrial park at DeLand. My point here is, that I might
have been able to kick out (Or it might have dove) But I didn't have a good place to land a 2 to 1
loaded Velocity. So I chopped it to land my PD113 in a TIGHT area. (Thanks PRO rating).

So there ya go....
Most are normal, and most are my fault for packing like shit.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

Of these two situations, which would you rather have go wrong?

I would want the one that does not rely on my AAD or RSL to possibly save me.

I want both hands on my handles....

If you train the right left enough it will become the way you will pull.

But if you miss the silver after you have cutaway...you are close to dead.

But both do work. And you have to due what makes you happy.
As I have said many times I don't care what people do as long as they have put thought into it.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riddler 0]

Quote

I would want the one that does not rely on my AAD or RSL to possibly save me.

That's valid for someone with your experience level - the question was really more directed to a student. I think students will have a much higher chance of pulling out of sequence than an experienced jumper, which is why I think two-handed methods are better for them.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[nightjumps 1]

Quote

At our DZ we teach the one-handed method for students since they are jumping large squares at no more than .75 wing-loading.

I've never heard this - why is the one-handed method safer on a low loaded square canopy?

I can see how "safer" was implied by my <.75. Both are safe. Our local DZs still use square F-111's at less .75 or less for students.

There is "less" propensity for a radical spin-up with those canopies. If they go to ZP semi's at .75-1.0 - I would probably go to the two-handed method.

In addition, if ANYONE in the class is left-handed, I teach them EP's independently of the rest of the class using the two-handed method.

[Ron 7]

Quote

I would want the one that does not rely on my AAD or RSL to possibly save me.

Quote

That's valid for someone with your experience level - the question was really more directed to a student. I
think students will have a much higher chance of pulling out of sequence than an experienced jumper, which
is why I think two-handed methods are better for them.

Why does experience matter for training?
I do have a higher probability of doing it correctly since I have done it 6 times, and been training it longer. But the theory is the issue here.

I have seen many people with several hundered jumps to 1,000 jumps pull in the wrong order...I have also seen people tug on parts of the harness to impact and do nothing till impact or CYPRES fire.....The main issue here is that most of these people never had a mal before. One guy did have a mal before, but he was on a Velocity with 400-500 jumps and he just freaked out and pulled in the wrong order. He landed fine, and now teaches AFF.

In "Ron's ideal training plan" a cutaway would be required for your 100th jump. No RSL, but with an AAD.

I think the hands on both handles pull is safer since you have the reserve handle in your hand when you cutaway...If it is in your hand it can't shift away from you and lose it.
I think almost nobody trains mals enough..It seems that you train them like hell when you have 0-150/200 jumps, then it becomes less of a focus....Until you have a mal, then you train it every jump.

This debate is as old as the RSL Yes/No, Pud vs Throwout debates...You can find people that are alive because they had a hard pull and had to use both hands, and I can find people that survived because they used the hands on both handles method.

Like I said, I don't care what method you use since they both work. I do want you to be able to explain why you do the one you do.

But that reason I gave is for all experience levels...

Skydive like there is no AAD or RSL on every jump.

Since I think like this I use the hands on both handles method.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[The111 0]

I'm left handed and recently pulled silver, cutaway (in that order!) in spinning line twists and somehow came out unscathed. Thought it's not fair for me to blame the incident on anything other than sheer freaking out and fucking up, it's interesting you mentioned the left-handed thing.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[nightjumps 1]

Quote

In "Ron's ideal training plan" a cutaway would be required for your 100th jump. No RSL, but with an AAD.

Ron, I really, really like this.

Quote

Skydive like there is no AAD or RSL on every jump.

My mantra is; "How well would you teach them if they didn't have AAD's, RSL's, or radios."

[nightjumps 1]

Quote

I'm left handed and recently pulled silver, cutaway (in that order!) in spinning line twists..."

"...it's interesting you mentioned the left-handed thing."

Exactly why I each left-handed folks the two-handed method. Nuff said.

[The111 0]

Quote

Exactly why I each left-handed folks the two-handed method. Nuff said.

Worst part is I use the two-handed method and grabbed my silver with both hands. :( I actually felt the reserve firing off my back (even with 50 jumps I knew that wasn't the feeling of a cutaway!) and immediately recognized my error and grabbed/pulled the pillow as fast as I could. I can't explain to this day why I did it but you can bet I do 10 emergency procedures (with visualization!) every time I put on my rig and am just itching for a chance to prove I can indeed cutaway first.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[nightjumps 1]

And then there's some folks who should buy an SOS system, just cause.

Glad it worked out. Practice your ass off. Actually, you should do a minimum of 28 EP's in a practice harness. 28 is the number required to embed a performance-oriented behavior into muscle memory the first time.

Don't make me make you do pushups.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Glad it worked out. Practice your ass off. Actually, you should do a minimum of 28 EP's in a practice
harness. 28 is the number required to embed a performance-oriented behavior into muscle memory the first
time.

I was told 20-25...but since 28 is more..I'll go with that one

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,404]

>Now I've heard of folk grabbing both handles, one each hand,
>instead of both hands to one at a time....I can now see the merits!
> As a real fng-I welcome any comments/suggestions regarding
> merits of either method!

Pluses of one hand per handle:

-Can be faster
-If you ever want to become a tandem master you'll have to switch to this method

Minuses of one hand per handle:

-If it's a hard pull on your cutaway handle you're in trouble; you now have to change your procedure in the middle of a mal
-If your hand slips off the cutaway handle due to a hard cutaway you may do what you have trained to do and pull the reserve (which is bad)


>BTW-after this-I would never consider anything other than a d-ring
> for the reserve handle; I really doubt I could of found a pillow very fast...

In addition, for people with dyslexia (I'm a little dyslexic) having two handles that feel very different can be an advantage. I might mistake a left hand pillow from a right hand pillow, but I won't mistake a pillow for a D-ring.

[nightjumps 1]

20-25 times with "correct form" until "muscle memory" for the maneuver has been solidly developed.

28 more if incorrect form is demonstrated even once.

The short course is: the brain must "unlearn" the incorrect form and "re-learn" the correct form.