Drug testing for DZ Instructors/TMs/Pilots

[diverdriver 5]

Inspired by Skratch's post about drug testing at the DZ what do you think?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Zenister 0]

my .02

only if their performance and behavior gives the ST&A reason to suspect they are creating an unsafe condition

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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only if their performance and behavior gives the ST&A reason to suspect they are creating an unsafe condition

'IF' it is the DZ I believe it is, the DZO is the S & TA.

Hook

[Zenister 0]

i'm not sure why that would change it.

what does it say if they are hiring people whos judgment & responsibility they don't trust in the first place?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Jessica 0]

I've been at a DZ where I saw a TM smoke up in the middle of the day (TM is not there anymore, don't know where he went). It's just not cool. While I wouldn't be willing to say it should be a universal rule, I don't have a problem with a DZ drug testing its employees.

I had to have a drug test for my current job, which is just so they can say, "Our employees are drug-free!" There's no practical reason. Drug testing is not an uncommon practice even in jobs where it's not a safety issue.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[diverdriver 5]

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i'm not sure why that would change it.

what does it say if they are hiring people whos judgment & responsibility they don't trust in the first place?

I'm not sure the legalities of this aspect but if you don't have a drug testing policy in place at the time of hiring I'm not sure you can force them to take a drug test later. I just really don't know that part of it.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Hooknswoop 19]

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i'm not sure why that would change it.

The DZO is implementing drug testing. The DZO is the S & TA, so saying testing only is suspected by the S & TA is saying, if suspected by the DZO, who is implementing the testing. So the suggestion of only testing if suspected is moot, because they are one in the same......

Again 'IF' it is the DZ I believe it is, they advertise they were "Voted #1". That sort of thing. Not sure who voted them #1........The term I heard is "Guerilla Marketing".

Hook

[flyangel2 2]

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I'm not sure the legalities of this aspect but if you don't have a drug testing policy in place at the time of hiring I'm not sure you can force them to take a drug test later. I just really don't know that part of it.

Like Hook said, "If it's the DZ I'm thinking off", the employees aren't hired as employees, but as "Independent Contractors". So, what are the legalities with drug testing independent contractors?

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[mikeat10500 10]

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my .02

only if their performance and behavior gives the ST&A reason to suspect they are creating an unsafe condition

If safety or performance are concerns...why bother with drug testing? Move directly to dismissal.
If someone performs well...then should we test for
performance enhancing drugs?
...mike
P.S.
Sugar is the most widely abused drug in North America
and Tobacco is the most dangerous. I use them both!

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[bbarnhouse 0]

I do know that drug testing has taken place here at Skydive Arizona.
That is all...

[jdfreefly 1]

You should add, "Don't care" to the list of options

[skymedic 0]

If you dont care why are you are you bothering responding?


I think all instructors should be tested. when a certain person that was employed by a DZ near me at the time went in and it was all over the new's that he was high at the time. it affected me...not only that I knew him well, but that I was harrased at work for jumping at such a place where this was allowed.....

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[dayle 0]

A tandem master or instructor should not be high and in charge of students, period. That being said, I dont' believe in Drug testing. If I was a TM or Inst. and I smoked a joint during festivities the night before it would show up on the drug test. My ablilties the next day jumping would not be affected at all.
I don't think this would be fair or right in anyway which I why I would be against the testing.

Dayle

[samp76 0]

Does anyone know why the FAA does not require drug and alcohol testing?

I work for a company that builds parts for airplane and if you can't pass a drug test, your gone because it is a FAA requirement. I would think that it would be a requirement for anyone that has a play into the safety of skydiving. Pilots, instructors, packers, and riggers should be required to take random drug tests.

The question would still remain, What about all skydiver?

Every skydiver in the air has some responsibility for the safety of everyone else in the air. If you are jumping under the influence of any drug it can impair your ability to react quick, and misjudge distances, just to name a few.

I do not see it a an infringement on my rights, I see not doing it as an infringement on my safety.
--Sam--

Let go of the NUT!!

[Zenister 0]

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I do not see it a an infringement on my rights, I see not doing it as an infringement on my safety.

if its such a safety issue then why not also require a hangover test, an adaquate sleep test, emotional stability test, general attitude test ...etc??

"what?" you might say not meaning you specifically"but you can observe those things to determine if there is a problem or not??"

perhaps if the only way you can tell if someone is doing drugs (and therefore "unsafe") is by having them piss in a cup, then their actual "impairement" isn't as significant as the government propaganda would leave you to believe.

as i said at the start, if the DZO/ ST&A doesn't trust his employees from the beginning and there is no behavior/performance reason to suspect they are creating an unsafe environment what does that say about their judgment in the first place?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Tf15 0]

Quote

Quote

I do not see it a an infringement on my rights, I see not doing it as an infringement on my safety.

if its such a safety issue then why not also require a hangover test, an adaquate sleep test, emotional stability test, general attitude test ...etc??

"what?" you might say not meaning you specifically"but you can observe those things to determine if there is a problem or not??"

perhaps if the only way you can tell if someone is doing drugs (and therefore "unsafe") is by having them piss in a cup, then their actual "impairement" isn't as significant as the government propaganda would leave you to believe.

as i said at the start, if the DZO/ ST&A doesn't trust his employees from the beginning and there is no behavior/performance reason to suspect they are creating an unsafe environment what does that say about their judgment in the first place?

But what if the impairment doesn't affect routine tasks, but affects response to an emergency situation? Without putting the pilot in a flight simulator how would a DZO ever know that there was a performance issue? Just because a TM can make 500 "normal" tandem jumps doesn't mean he won't show impaired judgement when it comes to a situation requiring a cutaway.

If anyone is going to sell their services to the public in a situation where they make the life and death decisions, they should be prepared to show that they are clean.

I just don't buy your argument at all.

Three times is enemy action

[rgoper 0]

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the employees aren't hired as employees, but as "Independent Contractors". So, what are the legalities with drug testing independent contractors?

i am an independent contractor as well. drug testing is legal, and can be implemented at any time even if it is not a requirement at the onset of hiring. pilots, TM1, AFF divemaster's etc...should have a "Zero Tolerance" i've seen some employees get by with 10-12 nanograms in they're system, while supervisor's were allowed "Zero Nanograms" the testing should be done with a 3rd party testing company so as to not have a conflict of interests. i think all personal on the DZ should be tested for any illegal substances, as should the skydiver's themselves being random tested.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[mikeat10500 10]

When I took my instructor course they had a different kind of drug testing...it went as follows.
Thursday afternoon...classroom work..bad weather.
Thursday night...party till ya puke...4:00am.
Friday morning 7:00am kick your ass out of bed "sleeping in the classroom"...dispatching jumpers " other course candidates" in shitty weather
with a very big hangover. Go all day, packing, dispatching, studying for tests etc.
Friday night school stops at midnight...party starts
and continues till 4:00 am again.
Saturday morning 7:00 am back at it...the sun was
hot and the thermals tossed the A/C around like a
rag doll. We would not be jumping except we need to complete the course. This shit goes on until sunday night.
They tested us " and we tested ourselfs" to see how
we could perform in the worst conditions.
After this I knew my limitations and we all learned
to cut back on the drinking and make it easier on
ourselfs.
I did not complete the course that weekend...I was
required to do makeup jumps "dispatching" do to
my lack of performance in observation skills.
The standard set was very high...and was enforced to the letter.
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[riggerrob 562]

Drug testing is an invasion of privacy.
Drug testing is also a crude measuring method that ignores a wide range of fatigue, stress, fitness, nutrition, experience, etc. factors.
Alcohol (actually hangovers) degraded my skydiving abilities far more than any other recreational drug, which is why I quit drinking 7 years ago.
Come on people, drug testing is just another attempt by governments to seize more of your civil rights. Once a bureaucracy is established, it can never be abolished.

[SkySlut 0]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe in Norway. The supervising organization can randomly test anyone, all the way down to funjumpers. I know that when they have competitions, they can test any competitor at any time.

[kallend 1,679]

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Drug testing is an invasion of privacy.
Drug testing is also a crude measuring method that ignores a wide range of fatigue, stress, fitness, nutrition, experience, etc. factors.
Alcohol (actually hangovers) degraded my skydiving abilities far more than any other recreational drug, which is why I quit drinking 7 years ago.
Come on people, drug testing is just another attempt by governments to seize more of your civil rights. Once a bureaucracy is established, it can never be abolished.

But the government isn't requiring these drug tests, so your civil rights aren't affected in any way. If you want to worry about civil rights violations, just read the Patriot Act and the proposals for Patriot Act II.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rmsmith 1]

The problem here is that it's the beginning of the end. Next, the excuse will be anyone who jumps can be a danger to someone else. No problem, let's just test everybody, right? No, thank you. I'd rather rely on my own personal judgement if the environment looks too dangerous for me. However, just because I may be wary of a particular environment doesn't mean that I would ruin it for others who may be enjoying themselves.

[WFFC 1]

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'IF' it is the DZ I believe it is, the DZO is the S & TA.

Hook-
Is is the dz you think it is. btw - there are two S&TA's at the dz as there now are in all the Mountain Region with exception to one dz in Utah. That was one of DJan's goals.

[WFFC 1]

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If I was a TM or Inst. and I smoked a joint during festivities the night before it would show up on the drug test. My ablilties the next day jumping would not be affected at all.

OK..Devil's Advocate - How do you know?
Just so you know my position on pee tests, I don't agree with them in most cases. Had to take one for a part time job several years ago then got the random selection right after I got back from Amsterdam. Spent a little time in one of the brown cafes and failed the test. btw - I do not do and never have done any drugs deemed as illegal. Apparently the positive came from enough second hand smoke that made me 'happy' while having lunch.
I do agree with them when people are entrusted with peoples lives. I don't really want the guy sitting behind the stick to do anything that could potentially impair their ability to get me to altitude safely.

[WFFC 1]

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Does anyone know why the FAA does not require drug and alcohol testing?

Skydiving, from what I could find, is the only form of aviation in the U.S. that does not have drug testing as a requirement. Chris-is this right?