A letter to the editor of Parachutist

[billvon 2,400]

>You think its bad now, you should see some of the planes I jumped from 20 years ago!

I had the same experience. Also watched a friend of mine die when he crashed in one of those shitty planes.

>Airplanes do not have to be maintained to the higest standards to
>be safe.

They do need to be maintained to high standards. They're not cars.

>Also, pilots do not need thousands of hours of flight time to be safe.

They do need experience and training, though. Again, flying a plane isn't like driving a van.

>The money is not there for the small DZ's to maintain thier planes to
> the higest standards, so does that mean they should close down?

Yes. If a DZ can not maintain their aircraft adequately, they should shut down. That's like asking - "if the tandem program can't afford safe gear, what do you expect them to do? Not jump?" Uh, yeah, I would expect that.

[AndyMan 7]

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If the DZO is smoking crack and flying jumpers not many are going to want to stick around. Those that do stick around, you really have to scratch your head and say "Why?"

What is really amazing is the jumpers who flock TO a crack addicted DZO. That just boggled my mind... I can only imagine a misguided sense of being able to help.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[ChrisG 0]

I wish you were as compassionate about people dying and getting injured under perfectly good canopies. Theres more people dying doing that than
there is deaths in airplane accidents. Do you think these accidents could cause some concern to the FAA? Deaths in airplane accidents is on the rise, well deaths by canopy collisions and hook turns is rising also. (probably more)
The idea you have of using peer pressure to get DZ owners to maintain thier planes better and have more qualified pilots is laughable- most jumpers dont care.
I say that because in my thirty years of jumping, I have seen only one person refuse to jump because of the airplane, and that was because one of the tires was half flat. (yes, I did go on that load).
Charge more? Yea, right, thats gonna happen, because of competition, aren't they already charging as much as they can? If they talked and said- lets all raise our prices- wouldn't that would be price fixing which is illegal.
Would you be saying the same thing if the only place you have to jump is hundreds of miles from the DZ that keeps its planes in better shape and has top notch pilots?

I have read many of your posts,chris, and I feel you have many good opinions , but I believe you are barking up the wrong tree with this airplane thing. It WILL only do harm to the small DZ.

Chris G

[jeremyneas 0]

That is a very educated and intelligent letter, I hope to meet you oneday. Real eye opener.

J.Neas

[diverdriver 5]

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I wish you were as compassionate about people dying and getting injured under perfectly good canopies. Theres more people dying doing that than
there is deaths in airplane accidents.

How am I not compassionate towards people dieing under canopy? I don't say it is not a problem. I say there is a problem there too. But in that arena, I have more support and am not as singular a voice as I am about aircraft.

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The idea you have of using peer pressure to get DZ owners to maintain thier planes better and have more qualified pilots is laughable- most jumpers dont care.

Peer pressure doesn't work? Hmmm...seems everyone changed their minds about AADs. They demanded more and now you hear more people at the DZ saying "Man, what's your life worth? Buy a Cypres." I'd call that peer pressure and I'd say it worked very well. I believe the same can be applied here.

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I say that because in my thirty years of jumping, I have seen only one person refuse to jump because of the airplane, and that was because one of the tires was half flat.

Oh yah? One person? Then you aren't looking hard enough. Or, it may be that the people refusing to get on the same plane as you aren't even at the same DZ as you because they already made the decision to not get on that plane and left. Happens all the time. I know because I get the emails about it.

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Would you be saying the same thing if the only place you have to jump is hundreds of miles from the DZ that keeps its planes in better shape and has top notch pilots?

Yes. I absolutely would. Because I have. I left KC from a bad operation and went to a good operation. I had had enough. And I voted with my feet. Unfortunately, 5 of my friends died in a 206 crash in 1998. That has been burned in my head ever since.

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I have read many of your posts,chris, and I feel you have many good opinions , but I believe you are barking up the wrong tree with this airplane thing. It WILL only do harm to the small DZ.

Well, that's where we will disagree. I will keep doing what I'm doing. They can keep crashing their planes and the FAA will do what it wants or doesn't want to do.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[phonics1981 0]

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.... most jumpers dont care...

?

I would care.
One of the things that is a major factor for every skydiver (you included) is safety. Do you think that skydiving safety is only limited from when you get out the aircraft to landing?

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"Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!"
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[quade 3]

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I wish you were as compassionate about people dying and getting injured under perfectly good canopies. Theres more people dying doing that than
there is deaths in airplane accidents. Do you think these accidents could cause some concern to the FAA? Deaths in airplane accidents is on the rise, well deaths by canopy collisions and hook turns is rising also. (probably more)

The difference is that if somebody decides to take extra risks -- for himself -- that's something that I can possibly live with.

When somebody, a DZO, decides to take extra risks -- with other people's lives -- that's something different altogether.

Skydivers can pay a pretty hefty price for a ride to altitude. It's the DZO's reponsibility to ensure they reach their destination safely.

It's also the law.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[hoym 0]

Somebody earlier in this thread was asking about the differences between a jump operation and a student pilot operation.

It’s been a while since I worked in that arena so I don’t know if this has changed or not. One difference that I remember is that a student pilot will normally rent the airplane that he receives his flight instruction in. Any airplane that is rented must be within 100 operating hours of its ‘100 hour inspection’. A 100 hour inspection is (correct me if I’m wrong) close to but not quite as thorough as an annual inspection.

Because a jump plane is (normally) not being rented by an owner to an operator, it is not required to receive a 100 hour inspection after every 100 hours of operation. This is an additional cost that many DZOs would probably not like to incur. However, it wouldn’t be too bad of an idea as worn parts may be discovered and replaced before they actually break.

[freakydiver 0]

Starting to wonder about MileHi II )-:

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[diverdriver 5]

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Somebody earlier in this thread was asking about the differences between a jump operation and a student pilot operation.

It’s been a while since I worked in that arena so I don’t know if this has changed or not. One difference that I remember is that a student pilot will normally rent the airplane that he receives his flight instruction in. Any airplane that is rented must be within 100 operating hours of its ‘100 hour inspection’. A 100 hour inspection is (correct me if I’m wrong) close to but not quite as thorough as an annual inspection.

Because a jump plane is (normally) not being rented by an owner to an operator, it is not required to receive a 100 hour inspection after every 100 hours of operation. This is an additional cost that many DZOs would probably not like to incur. However, it wouldn’t be too bad of an idea as worn parts may be discovered and replaced before they actually break.

Actually, a few errors here. If you are flying for hire (which most DZs are because they advertise in the yellowpages and take money for jump tickets) then you must comply with the 100 hour inspection rule. So yes, it absolutely IS required to receive 100 hour inspections. And the only difference between a 100 hour inspection and an annual inspection is supposed to be who can sign it off. A 100 hour can be signed off by either just an A&P mechanic or an A&P with IA. But only an IA (Inspection Authority) can sign off an Annual.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[billvon 2,400]

> Do you think these accidents (canopy accidents) could cause some concern to the FAA?

No. The FAA has no problem with pilots/jumpers killing themselves, but they have a very big problem with pilots/jumpers killing other people. Which is the way it should be I think. You have every right to do something stupid and kill yourself, but no right to do something stupid and kill me.

>It WILL only do harm to the small DZ.

It will only harm small DZ's with cruddy airplanes. And I have no problem with that, any more than I have any problem with an S+TA grounding someone who cannot safely skydive.

[rgoetsch 0]

If you don't have a little extra cash you have no business owning a plane. It is as simple as that. I just came from the hangar where my 182 is undergoing an annual inspection- instead of finding somewhere that will do the bare minimum I encourage the IA to look for EVERYTHING. Why would I take my investment and let it deteriorate to nothing and possibly kill my friends?? If you keep up on the 100 hour inspections and monitor, do thorough preflights and regular preventative maintenance you can cut down on costs that only get worse if you leave the problem until you HAVE to fix it. Even if you do all of this- it is still EXPENSIVE to own and operate any aircraft - if you can't handle it-get out of the business before you kill someone. You might also do everything right and hire experienced pilots and still have a crash- it happens.

We dropped the jump insurance on our 182 this year because the cost of skydiving policy was $8000. (for $100,000 coverage) Without skydiving the cost is only $1400. Since we only used it to back up local DZs and fill in when needed we opted to drop it. The high price of skydiving coverage is because of the amount of losses incurred in skydiving- every time you hear a "gear up" landing , ran off the runway or a stall/spin into the ground the insurance companies start uping the ante... THAT is what is putting operators out of business. Who is to blame? The operators that put inexperienced pilots in piece of shit airplanes and hope for the best.
I have seen people refuse to fly in certain airplanes with certain pilots- good for them! The general attitude needs to change. It is not cool to do fly bys or buzz jobs, get as low over the trees as you can, squeeze in one more load so you are low on fuel but the tandems get finished by dark...
Good luck on your crusade, Chris... there are people paying attention!

"If you're not on the centerline -you're out of control"

[AndyMan 7]

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It will only harm small DZ's with cruddy airplanes. And I have no problem with that, any more than I have any problem with an S+TA grounding someone who cannot safely skydive.

Not only small DZ's. There is one DZ in my neck of the woods that's closed this year partly because jumpers fled en-masse after rumors persisted of the DZO having a recurring drug problem. This DZ ran an otter and king air full time.

A DZO (and pilot) who can't stay off the crack is just as much a risk as a plane falling apart.

Like Paul said - there are risks I'm willing to take, and there are risks I'm not.


_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[kallend 1,623]

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I say that because in my thirty years of jumping, I have seen only one person refuse to jump because of the airplane, and that was because one of the tires was half flat. (yes, I did go on that load).

Strange - I saw a bunch of people (maybe 9 or 10) refuse to get on a plane just last Saturday because it wasn't loaded properly. I was one and DiverDriver was another. When they fixed the problem, we got on, but I doubt it would have been fixed unless the jumpers had made a fuss.

Jumpers do have the power to make a difference. I agree with DD - if a DZ can't make a living without compromising safety, I don't want to jump there.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[webracer 0]

Chris,
I am proud to have you at my home DZ, and even more proud that my home DZ values your input.
Please keep it up working for all our safety.
Your efforts do not go unnoticed.
Aircraft safety is of prime importance, as without it, we would'nt be able to even participate in our sport.
I feel aircraft maintenance (proper and at the highest standards) pays off in the end.
I learn a lot everytime you post in your area of expertise, keep it up!

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[sducoach 0]

Chris,
How can we not speak up. We both have five very strong, painful reasons burnt into our minds and our hearts. I have refused jump certain aircraft (you know the ones) because of maintenance problems and/or the pilot flying the aircraft. The most scary part of any skydive is the first 2000' of altitude for me. Being a pilot as we are Chris makes us even more critical of what we see. Most skydivers simply do not know or simply don't want to worry about it.
Keep on keeping on Brother. I'll walk right behind you or right beside you, what ever you need.
We owe it to five close friends.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[diverdriver 5]

Quade pointed out to me that I left out another aspect of inspection and that is the "maintenance program". That is a cycled inspection at regualar intervals that basicly take the place of annual inspections. Generally you find them on larger turbine planes but the principle is the same. You have regular inspections that cover the plane. On certain cycles you have more to do than on others but it all gets done.

One such inspection program (there's more than one) is called EMMA. Actually, I can't remember what it stands for right now but when you hear pilot and mechanics talking about EMMA they may not be talking about the hot skychicky with the nice "extra altitude getter uppers".

Edited because I can't spell the word "plane" after driving them for 17 years.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[nathaniel 0]

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It wouldn't be a bad thing to see operations institute a maximum number of hours you could fly in a day.

I know you mean well, but I think this maybe came out a little wrong...I don't think anyone would be pleased if the pilot bailed mid-flight b/c his time ran out... Maybe most # of hours you could put on a flight plans per pilot per day?

In commercial aviation I thought there exists already a 40 hr / month cap or something like that....am I way off here?

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[quade 3]

I -believe- I know of at least one drop zone that has a "progressive" (FAR 91.409(d)) inspection program with their Twin Otters, or at least they did a couple of years ago.

I think they had set this up as a condition placed upon them for doing some contract work with the government, but I might be off base there. Inspections are done piece-by-piece and on a schedule that inspects the entire aircraft over the course of 12 months. Anyway, there can be advantages to setting up a program like that -- mainly, the aircraft generally isn't out of service unless something is seriously wrong and needs major replacement. Or at least, that's my understanding.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[diverdriver 5]

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It wouldn't be a bad thing to see operations institute a maximum number of hours you could fly in a day.

I know you mean well, but I think this maybe came out a little wrong...I don't think anyone would be pleased if the pilot bailed mid-flight b/c his time ran out... Maybe most # of hours you could put on a flight plans per pilot per day?

In commercial aviation I thought there exists already a 40 hr / month cap or something like that....am I way off here?

nathaniel

If we are talking airlines it is 8 hours flying in a 24 hour period.
Must have 8 hours rest (no working, not even office work) in past 24 hour period.
30 hours max in the past 7 days.
Must have at least 24 hours away from company work in a 7 day period.
1,000 hours per calendar year.

I think that if we pushed for at least a self imposed 8 hour cap it would help improve safety. More than a couple of accidents happened after long days of flying. It doesn't weed out every accident. There are so many ways to have accidents out there. However it is generally accepted from NASA studies that fatigue is one of the leading causes of accidents. The fatigue caused accident you have just might be the first flight you have of the day because you flew your ass off the day previous.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[WFFC 1]

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Starting to wonder about MileHi II )-:

Now that was uncalled for. And your evidence of such would be...bueller...bueller...

[skytash 0]

I think this is a good topic, and fortunately I jump at a DZ where the pilots have the final say on whether we are jumping or not, the planes are well looked after etc etc.

I'm all for supporting a pilot against a DZO if s/he doesn't want to fly for whatever reason. The problem I have with this, is that I don't really know enough about planes to be able to SEE or KNOW whether there is a likely problem re maintenance etc.

Any advice on how I could tell that a plane is badly maintained??

Going back to a point made quite early on re skydiving having lots of take-offs and landings in comparison to GA, I would assume that skydiving operations just have more take-offs and landings per hour's flight as each flight is only around 20mins and GA would involve longer flights (that is just an assumption, I'm happy to stand corrected on that!)

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[kallend 1,623]

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Going back to a point made quite early on re skydiving having lots of take-offs and landings in comparison to GA, I would assume that skydiving operations just have more take-offs and landings per hour's flight as each flight is only around 20mins and GA would involve longer flights (that is just an assumption, I'm happy to stand corrected on that!)

tash

Student pilots doing touch and go circuits may be doing 10 or 12 take-offs and landing each hour. On my 2nd solo flight my instructir had me do nothing but touch and go for 2 hours!

On the whole I suspect it all balances out.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[diverdriver 5]

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Quote

Going back to a point made quite early on re skydiving having lots of take-offs and landings in comparison to GA, I would assume that skydiving operations just have more take-offs and landings per hour's flight as each flight is only around 20mins and GA would involve longer flights (that is just an assumption, I'm happy to stand corrected on that!)

tash

Student pilots doing touch and go circuits may be doing 10 or 12 take-offs and landing each hour. On my 2nd solo flight my instructir had me do nothing but touch and go for 2 hours!

On the whole I suspect it all balances out.

Exactly. They may do 10 T&Gs in an hour on one flight then fly a 2 hour cross country on the next flight. That's 13 cycles in 3 hours. That would still give it a higher cycle time than a typical skydiving plane. But, in the end, I think the exact cycle number would be about the same as a jump plane. So, that is why I feel comparing the accident rate per 100K hours of flying is a apples to apples comparison on why we should be doing better.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[SkyDekker 1,122]

great article Chris,

Thank you for taking on this crusade. If it saves only one person from one crash, you have made an incredible difference.