Students jumping WITHOUT an altimeter

[tombuch 0]

Interesting question. In the United States an altimeter is required for ALL students at USPA drop zones. The requirement applies to static line and tandem students as well as AFF students, and it can not be waived. (2003 SIM, Section 2-1; K; Parachute Equipment; 2;c).

I like my students to use their eyes to build altitude awareness and then cross reference with the altimeter. I suggest to them that when looking at the ground in freefall or under canopy they should also glance at their altimeter. This way they begin to connect the visual with a specific altitude. I tell them they are "building and encyclopedia of visual references."

I started jumping in 1979 in what was then a cutting edge static line program. We didn't use altimeters until after 10 second delays, and that was pretty standard back then. Likewise, I started teaching tandems in the early 90's, and we didn't use student altimeters. Obviously most of us survived, but we figured out that students learn better and become safer skydivers if they have altimeters from the first jump. The change to the BSR's reflects this interest in student safety and training.

Tom Buchanan
Author,
JUMP! Skydiving made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[btucker 0]

In serious rel work it is a sin to look at your alti. It's is a cardinal sin to to look at your alti in working time. If everyone on team has audible altis (hopefully not all the same model) then this is safe.


What about under canopy? That's when I use it most. Canopy collision; Am I too low to chop? Am I going to make it back? No turns below 200ft; What is 200ft, I'm a first jump student!

Primarcy in learning dictates that students should be using altis from jump 1. Probably a cheap shop that doesn't want the students to frap in and smash their precious altis.

Blues Benno

Blue Dreams Benno

[Ron 7]

An instructor or coach should NEVER take someones equipment from them.....

I would never take an alti from a jumper...It's stupid. If they want to look at it good. Saftey is #1 in this sport...going fast, looking cool or swooping far is a DISTANT 2nd.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[craddock 0]

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I think that it should be mandatory for every jumper to have a visual and audible altimeter.

Every Jumper? Why should your limitations dictate that I need to wear an altimeter?

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I don't worry about going lower than I planned or endangering someone else because I wanted to guess my altitude.

If I worried about either of these because I was not competent to jump without an altimeter, then I to would always wear one.
Endangering someone else? Do you mean pulling to high?

Another thing to consoder for experienced jumpers is what kind of jump they are doing. Head down or belllyflying. I started headdown after several hundreds of jumps without any form of altimeter and I did have some problems judging altitude without transitioning to a stand/sit.
This is getting of topic of the subject of Students
Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[trilete312 0]

As an extreme newbie to skydiving (21 Jumps) I can say that I would not jump at a DZ that didn't require you to have an altimeter as a student.

I constantly check my altimeter because I am still learning what it feels like to fly my body. At low jump numbers, you can not expect someone to develope an internal clock for altitude. Does everyone remember learning to dock and do all the things needed for your A license check dive? Well those things are mighty new to someone with low jump numbers and the excitement of accomplishing something as simple as a good front flip or driving all the way to a successful dock can easily overwhelm a student. If the student were worrying about this and guessing how high they were, there is a good chance that their first indication they were too low was when their coach waved and pulled. Now you have a student who is freaking out because their coach just pulled and could easily panic and not pull stable.

For a DZ, isn't an altimeter a cheaper option than replacing a cypress cutter, repacking a reserve, and having a student rig out of service while this maintenance takes place?

-----------
Ready, Set, Gooooooo

[Ron 7]

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Replying to:
Re: [listo] Students jumping WITHOUT an altimeter by btucker
Post:
In serious rel work it is a sin to look at your alti. It's is a cardinal sin to to look at your
alti in working time

Who told you that???? I ahve an Alti on my Rig....The Knights all have Alti's, the current womens 4 way team all has alti's.

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If everyone on team has audible altis (hopefully not all the same
model) then this is safe.

Nope its not safe. The team from (Italy?) had CYPRES fires due to the audible's being recalibrated at altitude.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[councilman24 36]

Hmmmm. I see this discussion as another version of the "I'll never jump without a Cypres," threads. In the twenty three years I've been jumping I've loaned about everything except my rig to students or new jumpers who forgot something. Altimeters, helmet, goggles, hook knifes. When I was beginning is was routine for some experienced jumpers not to use altimeters. I have friends with hundreds, if not thousands, of skydives without an altimeter. I didn't use one as a static line student. I bought my own when I bougt my own gear. I prefer to wear it for a number of reasons. How high is the airplane? How low are the clouds? Should we get out or not? Is it time to have the students get ready? I'm I high enough to cutaway? Is it time to get ready to land? Is the thermal sending me UP? And How high am I in freefall? An altimeter is a valuable tool, but not a critical one. It is also one that can fail or mislead. I've never gotten as good at judging altitude by I as I should be. And I consider that a disadvantage. But, if you forget yours, look around. Maybe I'll lend you mine.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[ladyskydiver 0]

Yikes! I would never jump at that DZ. I'm still a newbie to this sport. Yes, I'm beginning to tell what 3,000 ft. looks like, but I can still be off - way off when I'm excited that I actually accomplished something I wanted to. For those that have 1000's of jumps, it's probably second nature. But as a newbie, I still have to build the reference and get it ingrained in my system what 2,000 ft. looks like, 500 ft., etc. For me, personally, I will never go without an altimeter. Yes, it can malfunction just like any other piece of equipment. But, I would rather have one than not.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[rigging65 0]

I haven't read this entire thread yet, so I may be repeating what someone else has already said, but I generally encourage our young jumpers to make a jump or two without an altimeter. Not Students, but certainly someone with around 50-100 jumps.

Sometimes just a mid-altitude (say 6K Hop'n'Pop), maybe a bit higher. The first one I ask them to turn their alti under their wrist and only look at it after they deploy...to see how close they are to where they thought they were. After that one, then another one (or a few) without it at all.

Not saying that this practice should be done all the time, but being so super dependent that you absolutely must have an alti (or cypres???) to make a jump signifies a serious problem with self-trust and confidence to me. How is someone who is absolutely, 100% reliant on an alti going to react if it sticks while in freefall? Are they just going to "trust their instruments"?

I think this idea works for pilots, but that's because they have back up instruments to look at. If all we've got are our eyes to back up our altis, and we don't have faith-by-trial in our eyeballs...... the word 'bounce' comes to mind.

Instrumentation is great, but you've got to have confidence in yourself to be a safe skydiver.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[billvon 2,406]

>I agree that a skydiver needs to be able to judge altitude without an
> altimeter, but wouldn't it be better to tell students to constantly
> guess their altitude and then cross refference their guess with an
> instrument.

Of course; that's a good way to learn. It leads to the day when they don't need an altimeter to safely complete a jump, and that's the objective - to be safe even when your altimeter fails.

> I guess that being a pilot since I was 16 has instilled in my head
> that I always need to know where I am in the air.

Hmm. I've landed without an altimeter, so I know I can do that. If I never had I wouldn't know I had that skill.

[billvon 2,406]

>I think that it should be mandatory for every jumper to have a visual
> and audible altimeter.

I disagree very strongly. You are asking for a requirement on a device you don't need to skydive safely.

>I personally always have at least two altimeters of some sort on me
>at all times. I know where I am in the air and never have to guess.

Your altimeter breaks; the needle falls off. Your audible isn't going off. What altitude are you at?

No amount of altimeter redundancy can ever make up for your eyes and brain.

>I don't worry about going lower than I planned or endangering
> someone else because I wanted to guess my altitude.

I worry far more about device-dependent people going low than John Hamilton, who does not use an altimeter.

>Actually, I have jumped without one a few times and it scared the
> sheeeeeeeet out of me. I pulled high as hell just to make sure I
> had plenty of altitude to deal with.

Work on this! You need good altitude awareness to skydive safely. Practice jumping both with and without altimeters until you can safely open and land your parachute without endangering others by pulling 3000 feet too high. One good drill: set your dytter so it beeps first at 2000 feet, and try to pull at 3000. Keep an altimeter in your jumpsuit so you can check on how close you came, and try it until you can come within 500 feet of your pull altitude reliably. (+1000 -500 actually.) It's important; being device dependent can be deadly in this sport.

[riddler 0]

Along these lines, my thinking is that we have different means of determining altitude, which change over the course of our skydiving career, depending on your experience level, sensual accuity, etc.

When a new jumper starts, altitude awareness is/should be determined in this order:

1. Equipment (Altimeter, Audible if available)
2. Eyes (looking at the ground)

At some point, with enough jumps (I'm not there yet), the shift should be to:

1. Eyes
2. Equipment (Altimeter, Audible)

Can anyone comment on this? Is this correct or incorrect? It's hard to say all skydivers should do this or that, but it might be a good guidleline.

Also, two things about altitude awareness bother me. The first is the tendency to begin relying on some sense of internal "timing". I don't think this is a good idea. You might be able to get a sense of how much time it takes, but what happens when you change your fall-rate? What happens when the pilot kicks you out at only 9,000 AGL because of clouds? If you are in the habit of relying on your internal clock, you might easily forget about these new factors. I think it's a good idea to practice *not* relying on the internal clock.

The second thing that bothers me is the tendency in free-flying to rely on audibles first, altimeter second (it is hard to turn your head and look when free-flying) and eyes last (you normally look at the horizon, not the ground). It seems of these three, the audible is the most likely to fail, even though I see some freeflyers using it as the first source of information.

Are either of these two concerns unjustified? Hope I'm not getting too far off topic here.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[pop 0]

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For students, well, they should have alti's, but I know on some Skydive U. Coached dives, that some folks have had their alti's taken away from them. This was only because the dives were damn near ruined b/c the person being coached was looking at their alti every 3-4 seconds.

There becomes a point in which you really have no reason to look at your alti for the first 20 seconds, atleast.

See my point?

funny, i remember having this conversation last sunday

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[Push 0]

I disagree respectfully, but strongly. I am one of those students on a static line progression that are not given an altimeter at first. Here are some of the pros and cons as I see it. As an aside, I have been jumping with an altimeter for 8 jumps, and without one for 12. One of the altimeter jumps was a static line recurrency, just this Saturday.

Pros:

i) Learning to count in freefall. It seems to me that this is very, very important. My brain counts automatically as I exit. I've got an "audible" implant, it just goes off when it's time to pull. I can easily do things like: come off step, arch, count to 5, check stability, count to 5, check stability, box, did I count to 10 yet? No? Finish count. Alti check. Count to 3. Alti check. Pull. Count to 2. Is it opening yet? No? Look back. Count to 2. Is it opening yet?

This is completely automatic, and only there because of all the 5 and 10 second delays without an alti. Am I safe? Completely, at least I think so.

ii) My Alti 3 came with an orange card that said that readings can be erratic during freefall acceleration. I don't know how long it usually takes, but I get to terminal in something around 13 seconds. So a 10 second delay makes the alti unsafe to use in freefall. Perhaps this isn't a big deal, but my experience is not enough to judge. That orange card with the big warning on top sounds convincing to me.

iii) Dealing with mals. This is a pro to me, because a student shouldn't be trying to check his alti in a mal. Just a normal skydive is stressful enough to us, thank you very much. If your canopy ain't right, LOOK GRAB PULL. No damn altimeter checking or anything. This training comes in handy if: you get a high speed mal, or if you are experienced and get your first mal under a handkerchief at 2000'. Taking 5 secs to find your alti and look at it could kill you, from what I understand.

Cons:

It would be nice to have it under canopy. I don't really know what altitude looks like what. If my radio malfunctioned when I was on my 3rd or 4th jump, I'd probably land on McNasty's pitchfork. Not that it has ever been a problem, but still. On the other hand, I can now plant myself in the peas (alright, I could last season
So anyway, I think they're a bonus under canopy, but not really required. On the other hand, when you go high, you should definitely take an alti with you. I haven't been higher than 5500' yet, but I can imagine what it's like. I'm only talking about fairly short delays.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[AggieDave 6]

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because a student shouldn't be trying to check his alti in a mal

Actually, they should be checking their alti, in certain mals. Line twists for example. If a student isn't out of line twists by 2500ft, they should chop it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[craddock 0]

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If we are talking about an experienced jumper, well I would tell that reporter that the jumper in question didn't follow a good safety regimen and I am not suprised that he/she went in.

Let's see, you are admitedly device dependent.

Seldom have I jumped with an Altimeter in the past couple years, so I do not follow a good safety regimen and am likely to "go in" as a result?

You admit that you can not safely jump without a mechanical device to judge your altitude, yet I am more likely to go in? Does this still make sense when you read it back to yourself?

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Push 0]

On a 288 Manta, flying straight and into the wind? Also, we pull at 4000', the kind of line twists that take 4000' to undo are probably going to cause slider lock. For something like 12 years it hasn't been a problem. I don't know, the decision to chop is pretty major. Are you sure it wouldn't be better to just ride the line twists in and PLF?

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[AggieDave 6]

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Are you sure it wouldn't be better to just ride the line twists in and PLF?

Yes, I'm very sure. If the canopy isn't flying correctly (i.e. line twists, certain lines broken, etc), then the chance of something happening is great.

I would much much rather see us as a DZ loose a main and a freebag, but have a student land safely any day.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rgoper 0]

one day last summer i hurried to get on the otter for my first skydive of the day, i was in a hurry ya'll know what i mean, i was jonesing for some freefall! so i get geared up, make the load at about 9K where we all start doing gear checks, i looked inside the pocket of my jumpsuit for my altimeter, wasn't there! because of the training i recieved i wasn't worried and made my jump anyway! my bad? you can only see the ground at 2000' AGL so many times before you "know what the ground looks like!" i like the signature in Pop's profile where he quotes doc sherry! and "NO" this is not an advocation for students to jump without altimeters!

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[CrazyIvan 0]

I'm new to this sport and still a student, but I have an opinion, I base my opinion on training and common sense.

Yes, I'm totally against any type of dependencies, you should develop the necessary skills to perform correctly and ultimately survive if you find yourself in such a predicament, BUT, I believe you should wear an alti just as a 'reference', say that you are good 'guessing' the time of the day, but perhaps someday you might lose track of time and what you do? glimpse at your watch, that simple, same thing with audibles, you must not depend on them, just have them with you, 'just in case', just like a seatbelt, not because you buckle up means that you are going to crash, you buckle up 'just in case'.

Just my 2 cents.

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[rgoper 0]

i would not hesitate to make future sky dives without an altimeter. by now i'm wearing a helmet with two audibles in it as well, when i made the jump i'm referring to i didn't even own a helmet. if you think about it, unless your on a 4-8 rw dive that exits before you, you give the time for horizontal seperation, but you watch the other sky divers starting to "turn & burn" and seconds later deploy, there's your cue! actually it was quite a rush, and i've jumped a couple of other times without an altimeter. i think it's good training, what if your altimeter fails you? itz all good!

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Mad47 0]

An idea of learning of how different altitudes look like is only good when one can look down, then look at altimeter and say: Ok, this is how 3K looks like. Otherwise missjudgment (very common thing when you learn) can be very dangerous. As a very new person in sport (less than 200 jumps) I didn't really enjoy my two jumps without altimeter (unintentional). It is not a problem in freefall (especially when you jump with other people whom you trust and whom you can use as a reference), but it is not a good feeling when you main snivels and you do not really know whether you above or below the hard deck.

[listo 0]

Tombuch, this is not directed at you. I am just using your statement. Thank you for posting it.

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In the United States an altimeter is required for ALL students at USPA drop zones. The requirement applies to static line and tandem students as well as AFF students, and it can not be waived. (2003 SIM, Section 2-1; K; Parachute Equipment; 2;c).

Man, gotta love the good ole USPA. They care about their members I guess.

Has everyone in here seen the movie "Friday"? If not go rent it so you can see where I am about to go with my next comment.

If anyone of these fools in here goes in not wearing an alti, will someone please call me before you move the body so I can stand over them, put my finger in their face and say "you jus, burnt, da F*** IN!" ha ha haaaaaa I can't believe that I am hearing the moronic statements in here about this.

If you don't want to look at your alti in free fall or under canopy, fine. Go ahead, but do the rest of us a favor and wear an altimeter so you don't look quite as stupid as you are.

I in no way will ever say that it is a good idea to send up a student without an alitmeter and no amount of ignorant statements will EVER change my opinion on that one folks. You might as well save your finger energy for my sake.

The assumption was made that I am device dependant. Well, to be honest I am not. I use my eyes mostly. However, I have hundreds of jumps of cross refferencing my guesses with that device and I am pretty accurate now. Students don't have that experience.

If I have a malfunction, the first thing I look at is my altimeter. I want to know how much time I have to work with. Am I lower than I thought. Did my canopy snivel longer than usuall.

Not that it really matters, but how many of you people who advocate jumping without an altimeter jump seasonally vs. year round jumping. More importantly, how many of you jump 52 weekends a year? This should be interesting.


People the bottom line is this. If you want to teach someone how to use their senses for altitude awareness then they have to use a device to cross referrence it. Airplane flight instructors don't mess up an airplane when someone is going through training to simulate emergencies. Why should we send someone up with a faulty altimeter or no altimeter at all. It is the same thing. It is plain out idiotic to tell someone to guess how high they are. Sure, you can see when you need to pull. Almost any idiot can see that, but someone with only 4-5 jumps doesn't know diddly about altitude.

If it sounds like I am peaved about this.....well, kind of. Is there anything I can do to keep it from happening.....not if I don't see it. I don't care how things were done back in the days of Moses. This is 2003 and we should know how important safety is. I am not going to advocate someone to go out and stare at an altimeter for a whole dive to know how high they are, but geeze, it is one hell of a good idea to have that little device.

If you want to be one of the people who advocate jumping without an altimeter, then I will take great pleasure to keep on saying that it is plain out STUPID and so are you for not wearing it. If you don't want to look at it, fine, but at least wear the thing. what is it going to hurt?

This is the last post I am putting in this thread. I don't think I can go on any further without breaking the rules and calling a few people what they really are. If I have offended anyone in here by my views, well tough. Stupidity and ignorance offend me.

To all of the low timers and students who read this. I say to trust your judgement and common sense. If you think an altimeter is a good idea, then demand to wear one and don't ever let anyone convince you otherwise. After all, it is your butt that is jumping out of that airplane, not theirs.

"A closed mind is a wonderful thing to waist"

Listo

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In the United States an altimeter is required for ALL students at USPA drop zones. The requirement applies to static line and tandem students as well as AFF students, and it can not be waived. (2003 SIM, Section 2-1; K; Parachute Equipment; 2;c).

[Liemberg 0]

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being device dependent can be deadly in this sport.

"Define parachute for me."

"Well uh... a device that...."


And now you have your 100 jumps wonder with a slooowwww opening, a high slider, a twist and an almost-but-not-yet square canopy at ???? ft
First time everything didn't quite work out as advertised... "Time flies when you are having fun..."
He finds it hard to see what is actually going on with his canopy - is it getting any better? Why isn't that slider coming down? Damn - I thought I would miss this 'small patch of industrial haze' but apparently I ended up right above it - correction, in it ...

Luckely your student was thoroughly trained not to be device dependent so he can immediately ascertain if it is still safe to cut away - or deadly.

Whenever I play the game of guessing my altitude I look at where I am and then I look at my altimeter.
Seems I give the horrible device some credit.
Once I left a plane with a passenger at 12500ft and my alti got stuck at 11000ft - saw the cameraflyer for the second time around and thought 'this took longer than the alti shows...'
Several times I saw a video of a 1800 jumps wonder that took a tandem down to cypres firing altitude.
Altimeter was showing 3500ft (?) when he landed.

"Somebody buy this guy a pair of glasses!"

"No wait, we cant - that would make him device-dependent..."
When all your students "use their altimeters to flare", it is time to re-evaluate the first jump course you are giving. When occasionally one does that - well, no need to chew his ass to much, since he is doing a fine job at it himself...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Liemberg 0]

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Also, two things about altitude awareness bother me. The first is the tendency to begin relying on some sense of internal "timing".
>
The second thing that bothers me is the tendency in free-flying to rely on audibles first, altimeter second
>
Are either of these two concerns unjustified?

Your concerns are completely justified.

The first 'Skydiving Zen Master With Over A Thousand Jumps' I ever jumped with (as early as 1984) told me not to worry that he wasn't wearing an altimeter on his cheststrap (we had them on our cheststraps then for the convenience of our buddies in freefall) - He Was Going To Save The Day With Situational Awareness And Superior Internal Clock! He Was Going To Wave Off At 3500ft! After all - I had a huge altimaster on MY cheststrap and we would be right in front of each other...

I just concentrate on the skydive!

Well, what a learning moment I had there: I pulled out of a 2 way at 2200ft, while he was looking at his girlfriend that was flailing around us.

Oops... so much for situational awareness and internal clocks ... (though you could say that mine worked better than his...hehehe...)

And to all freeflyers that look way cool on video I would say:
"If you are going to loose sight of ground and horizon - you better have fresh batteries in all your gadgets..."

When it comes to 'shifting the focus' mine would be that you always cross-reference it and believe the most conservative assessment. By that I mean the following: "If your eyes tell you you are low and the altimeter says you're not - believe your eyes. If your alti says you are low - believe your alti... when something starts to beep and it may be prematurely - sort things out under canopy, not in freefall..."

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...