Ron 7 #51 October 10, 2003 QuoteRon you are WRONG! The USPA rating programs are not a a benefit of being a GM DZ It is your right as a member to have a course. However it is not your right to demand it where you want it. It is a right of a GM DZ to hold those courses....WTS is not a GM DZ and since it does not have that right. You are acting like a spoiled kid wanting what you do have the right to have, but demanding that the USPA bend backwards for the benefit of a GZ that does not follow the BSR's, and refuses to become a group member. The USPA has the right to say where and when its property is used. As a member you have the right to the classes, but not to demand where they are held. QuoteBy the way Ron Hill, how can you get from Memphis, Tn. to Hazen, Ar. in 1 hour? 1 hr from the bridge to Hazen...Mazda RX7. Once I got out of West Memphis I dropped the hammer. Did this several times.... But we can go with your 1.5 hrs...Still the issue stands, you don't have the right to demand the USPA lets you hold a course at a DZ that violates BSR's."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #52 October 10, 2003 Being reposted for the benefit of Chris: Quote The United States Parachute Association is a not-for-profit association dedicated to promoting the safe enjoyment of skydiving. USPA's Regular Members form the core of the Association's membership base. They include active skydivers, former skydivers, and others who support the sport. Benefits: Eligibility to participate in all USPA license, rating, and awards programs Notice it says you have the ability to do these things...But it does not say "Demand that we hold a course at a DZ that violates BSR's and refuses to join our GM program." Quote The Group Member Program was established to foster a business and professional relationship between USPA and skydiving clubs, centers and schools in order to strengthen the unity within the skydiving community and to enhance the growth of the sport. The main beneficiary of this unity is the individual skydiver, who will receive better training, jump in a safer environment, and be better served by the association which supports the skydiver's interests. Following is a full list of the benefits of USPA Group Membership: Affiliation with USPA That DZ is not affiliated with the USPA, so why should the USPA even let that DZ hold acourse? So the fact still stands, while you have the right to take the course, WTS does not have the right to hold the course. It really is that simple."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #53 October 11, 2003 QuoteIndividual USPA members shouldn't be penalized for jumping at or supporting a non- Group Member DZ that chooses ( for whatever reasons) not to be a USPA GM. Blue Ones, Chris Welker D-19678 You are absolutely correct. The Candidates should not pay this extra amount, the DZO should pick up the extra $600 tab so the candidates can get their coach ratings. Chris Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #54 October 12, 2003 QuoteWhat would the course cost to the DZ be compared to the cost of becoming a GM DZ? Isn't is about the same? 600 bucks? all the courses are a member benefit NOT a group member benefit. This is and always has been bullshit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #55 October 13, 2003 QuoteQuoteWhat would the course cost to the DZ be compared to the cost of becoming a GM DZ? Isn't is about the same? 600 bucks? all the courses are a member benefit NOT a group member benefit. This is and always has been bullshit. If a DZ has more qualified people to jump with students they can do more students in a day. This is an increase in revenue and IS a benefit to the DZ. So it is both a individual member benefit and a DZ benefit. If USPA chooses to limit cert courses to GM DZs only then that's their right. You as an individual member have the right to attend a course. It does not say it has to be at the DZ of your choosing. And, this motion put forth by the GM Committee that keeps being touted here no one has answered my question. Did the FULL BOD not vote on this motion to make it so? If the full BOD did vote on it, regardless of what committee it came out of, then I don't support letter writing to get the fee waived. The Safety and Training Committee could have protested the actions right then and there. It does not seem that they did. So, by their inaction they are going along with the idea that the GM Committee has the right to set course fees for non-GM DZs to hold cert courses. When I got my IAD JM rating I had to travel to another DZ. Don't see me crying about it. When we had AFF cert courses at SDC people traveled from all over to be at it. People don't seem to have trouble traveling to get the rating they want. Or, you have several options to holding the course at your DZ. Pay the course fee for non-GM DZ or become a GM DZ and actually save on the course fee (difference between non-GM DZ fee and GM initial fee).Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #56 October 13, 2003 Quote You are absolutely correct. The Candidates should not pay this extra amount, the DZO should pick up the extra $600 tab so the candidates can get their coach ratings. I totally agree here. If Mullins doesn't want to be a GM DZ, then its his responsibility to take care of any problems that it causes. I agree with Ron also... since you all having your coach ratings will create more student jumps, this will be earning the DZ more money, which means profit for Mullins. You guys should be asking Mullins why he won't pay for it. And actually, this weekend, a few jumpers at our GM DZ drove four hours to attend a coach class. I'm sure they would have been delighted had it only been 1.5 hours away. Its not for lack of facilities, since we have had instructor classes at our DZ before. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buzzfink 5 #57 October 13, 2003 QuoteQuote*** And, this motion put forth by the GM Committee that keeps being touted here no one has answered my question. Did the FULL BOD not vote on this motion to make it so? Everything that comes out of the GM committee goes before the full BoD. Unless controversial, they usually just get approved. Also, the Chairman's of the GM committee and the S&T committees usually communicate about common issues. In many instances, both committees vote seperately on the same issue and only one committee brings it forward. Also, some of the members of the S&T committee are also on the GM Committee. Buzz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #58 October 13, 2003 That clears up a lot Buzz. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #59 October 13, 2003 Quote all the courses are a member benefit NOT a group member benefit. This is and always has been bullshit I have very little sympathy for people who choose to work outside the system. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites thefreak 0 #60 November 1, 2003 well we did have the course at WTS...it was a success...i do call WTS my home dz and very proud of it. we do follow bsr's and do follow every aspect of the isp. i just want to be able to teach someone how to skydive...(ok i am waiting for brent and kevins reply of "first you have to learn to skydive) i dont care about money..although the slot paid for is nice, but isnt this whole thing about bringing in more skydivers to a) the dz and b) uspa. i do agree with chris wholeheartidly and has stated his case to me several times...twice when the beer light is on...i donot agree with the extra 600 bucks...cause i cant afford it basically....hell i spend it skydiving...anywasy i have no point i am just wasting time at work....but i feel as a member of uspa it should be up to us to decide where to have a course...i am not demanding..but if several uspa members get together and have a course should uspa atleast consider it?? which from what was said it got shot down by a group that shouldnt even be voting on it anyways...safety and training should have the final say in this...anyways back to doing nothing. feel free to turn the beer light oni'm out like a fat kid playing dodgeball Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot90 0 #61 November 1, 2003 QuoteI have very little sympathy for people who choose to work outside the system. A uspa member is in the system, And students someday will be. (we all hope) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crwmike 0 #62 November 1, 2003 Well, let's see. Skydivers wanting a rating to make beginning skydivers pay extra money for what they should (IMHO) get for free ...are bitching that they are having to pay extra money. Nope, don't believe I'll help you out here. Michael QuoteA group of USPA individual members want to hold a Coach rating course at West Tennessee Skydiving Oct. 25-26, 2003. Andy Anderson contacted Bram Clement to conduct the course and Bram agreed. The candidates are covering Bram's expenses and paying the normal course fees for the materials needed; however, they are also being forced to pay an extra $600 since the course is being held at a non-Group Member Drop Zone. FYI the Group Membership Committee put forth the motion that created the "fee rule" at the 2001 Winter BOD meeting. The candidates for the course don't think it is fair and all of the USPA members that I spoke with at West Tennessee Skydiving this weekend don't think it is right either. The facilities are some of the best in the counrty with 3 full scale mock-ups of a King Air , C-195, and C-182. 2 class rooms and more than enough of everything else. Please assist your fellow skydiving brother and sister by e-mailing or contacting your elected USPA leadership immediately in regards to this situation and voice your displeasure. Blue Ones, Chris Welker D19678 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites webracer 0 #63 November 1, 2003 QuoteI have very little sympathy for people who choose to work outside the system. I agree. Mullins wants it both ways. If you don't like the system, work toward the changes it needs to be better. I feel his position is very poor. He chooses to be on the board of a group he won't subscribe to. Does he feel better than us? If Mullins cared about USPA, he would be a member. I am sorry for those who learned at his DZ, and were not really aware of the consequences of his decision. Now they are looking to achieve ratings and feeling the consequences. As for Mullins, I think he should not be re-elected. The whining should stop. WTS is not a group member, so no course without additional course fees. Tough shit! Pay up, or go somewhere that supports our organization. The USPA is not perfect (far from it), but we have the power to make it better. Mullins' decisions with regard to group membership undermine the purpose of the USPA.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyAnderson 0 #64 November 1, 2003 "If you don't like the system, work toward the changes it needs to be better." That is exactly why Mullins was elected with only BJ getting more votes, maybe he has some skydivers who agree with him. Mullins is a USPA member. Mullins is a VERY staunch supporter of the USPA and spends a fair amount of his time improving what the USPA does for us. Maybe it is the Group Member program that needs Revision? Remember Mullins tried to put a "Ethics" clause into the GM pledge but the GM Board members would have none of that. Imagine a pledge that you would have to abide to and why have none of the GM board members ever had a GM inspection after they spent a fortune putting the program together. Maybe nothing would change if the GM program disappeared, DZ's would still require personal membership. Don't forget all but one jumper at WTS are USPA members and that means we all have to abide by the BSRs. Two weeks ago I spoke to Jim Wests manifester and Bill Dawse and they assured me all their students join the USPA by jump #3 and all their instructors are current and certified USPA members, all that happening at non GM DZs. I am a USPA member no matter where I jump. Andy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #65 November 1, 2003 This thread demonstrate the conflict of interest the GM program causes. Does USPA support jumpers or DZ's? If they support jumpers, then what does it matter if the DZ they work at is a GM DZ? If they are members, they should be able to hold a certification course at any DZ. What if every DZ in the country dropped their group membership? Would USPA members have to pay extra to hold a course at every DZ in the country? Is that fair to USPA members? No, it isn't.If a DZO does not want his DZ to be a GM DZ, why should jumpers be penalized for that decision? Forcing USPA members extra to become Instructors if they jump at a non-GM DZ encourages USPA members to simply Instruct without a rating, forcing them to operate outside of the USPA. The FAA imposes no regulations concerning AFF, S/L, or IAD Instructors, and only require initial certification for Tandem Instructors. (They do require a 'master parachutist license', but since USPA no longer calls the "D" license the 'Master Parachutist License', then technically there are no leagal TI's in the U.S) I think it is a conflict of interest for the USPA to require either Group Memebership to hold a rating course or an extra fee. FI everyone is a USPA member, they should recieve the benifits of said membership without extra fees or being penalized for where they jump. Almost seems like the USPA is trying to force DZO's into joining the USPA GM program. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,644 #66 November 1, 2003 Quote snip Derek I'd put it more succinctly: USPA is trying to serve two masters, and it just can't be done.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #67 November 1, 2003 Exactly, and when USPA must chosse between it's members or Group Members, the GM's win every time. With the USPA it is GM's first, individual members second. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
diverdriver 5 #58 October 13, 2003 That clears up a lot Buzz. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #59 October 13, 2003 Quote all the courses are a member benefit NOT a group member benefit. This is and always has been bullshit I have very little sympathy for people who choose to work outside the system. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thefreak 0 #60 November 1, 2003 well we did have the course at WTS...it was a success...i do call WTS my home dz and very proud of it. we do follow bsr's and do follow every aspect of the isp. i just want to be able to teach someone how to skydive...(ok i am waiting for brent and kevins reply of "first you have to learn to skydive) i dont care about money..although the slot paid for is nice, but isnt this whole thing about bringing in more skydivers to a) the dz and b) uspa. i do agree with chris wholeheartidly and has stated his case to me several times...twice when the beer light is on...i donot agree with the extra 600 bucks...cause i cant afford it basically....hell i spend it skydiving...anywasy i have no point i am just wasting time at work....but i feel as a member of uspa it should be up to us to decide where to have a course...i am not demanding..but if several uspa members get together and have a course should uspa atleast consider it?? which from what was said it got shot down by a group that shouldnt even be voting on it anyways...safety and training should have the final say in this...anyways back to doing nothing. feel free to turn the beer light oni'm out like a fat kid playing dodgeball Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #61 November 1, 2003 QuoteI have very little sympathy for people who choose to work outside the system. A uspa member is in the system, And students someday will be. (we all hope) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #62 November 1, 2003 Well, let's see. Skydivers wanting a rating to make beginning skydivers pay extra money for what they should (IMHO) get for free ...are bitching that they are having to pay extra money. Nope, don't believe I'll help you out here. Michael QuoteA group of USPA individual members want to hold a Coach rating course at West Tennessee Skydiving Oct. 25-26, 2003. Andy Anderson contacted Bram Clement to conduct the course and Bram agreed. The candidates are covering Bram's expenses and paying the normal course fees for the materials needed; however, they are also being forced to pay an extra $600 since the course is being held at a non-Group Member Drop Zone. FYI the Group Membership Committee put forth the motion that created the "fee rule" at the 2001 Winter BOD meeting. The candidates for the course don't think it is fair and all of the USPA members that I spoke with at West Tennessee Skydiving this weekend don't think it is right either. The facilities are some of the best in the counrty with 3 full scale mock-ups of a King Air , C-195, and C-182. 2 class rooms and more than enough of everything else. Please assist your fellow skydiving brother and sister by e-mailing or contacting your elected USPA leadership immediately in regards to this situation and voice your displeasure. Blue Ones, Chris Welker D19678 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #63 November 1, 2003 QuoteI have very little sympathy for people who choose to work outside the system. I agree. Mullins wants it both ways. If you don't like the system, work toward the changes it needs to be better. I feel his position is very poor. He chooses to be on the board of a group he won't subscribe to. Does he feel better than us? If Mullins cared about USPA, he would be a member. I am sorry for those who learned at his DZ, and were not really aware of the consequences of his decision. Now they are looking to achieve ratings and feeling the consequences. As for Mullins, I think he should not be re-elected. The whining should stop. WTS is not a group member, so no course without additional course fees. Tough shit! Pay up, or go somewhere that supports our organization. The USPA is not perfect (far from it), but we have the power to make it better. Mullins' decisions with regard to group membership undermine the purpose of the USPA.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyAnderson 0 #64 November 1, 2003 "If you don't like the system, work toward the changes it needs to be better." That is exactly why Mullins was elected with only BJ getting more votes, maybe he has some skydivers who agree with him. Mullins is a USPA member. Mullins is a VERY staunch supporter of the USPA and spends a fair amount of his time improving what the USPA does for us. Maybe it is the Group Member program that needs Revision? Remember Mullins tried to put a "Ethics" clause into the GM pledge but the GM Board members would have none of that. Imagine a pledge that you would have to abide to and why have none of the GM board members ever had a GM inspection after they spent a fortune putting the program together. Maybe nothing would change if the GM program disappeared, DZ's would still require personal membership. Don't forget all but one jumper at WTS are USPA members and that means we all have to abide by the BSRs. Two weeks ago I spoke to Jim Wests manifester and Bill Dawse and they assured me all their students join the USPA by jump #3 and all their instructors are current and certified USPA members, all that happening at non GM DZs. I am a USPA member no matter where I jump. Andy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #65 November 1, 2003 This thread demonstrate the conflict of interest the GM program causes. Does USPA support jumpers or DZ's? If they support jumpers, then what does it matter if the DZ they work at is a GM DZ? If they are members, they should be able to hold a certification course at any DZ. What if every DZ in the country dropped their group membership? Would USPA members have to pay extra to hold a course at every DZ in the country? Is that fair to USPA members? No, it isn't.If a DZO does not want his DZ to be a GM DZ, why should jumpers be penalized for that decision? Forcing USPA members extra to become Instructors if they jump at a non-GM DZ encourages USPA members to simply Instruct without a rating, forcing them to operate outside of the USPA. The FAA imposes no regulations concerning AFF, S/L, or IAD Instructors, and only require initial certification for Tandem Instructors. (They do require a 'master parachutist license', but since USPA no longer calls the "D" license the 'Master Parachutist License', then technically there are no leagal TI's in the U.S) I think it is a conflict of interest for the USPA to require either Group Memebership to hold a rating course or an extra fee. FI everyone is a USPA member, they should recieve the benifits of said membership without extra fees or being penalized for where they jump. Almost seems like the USPA is trying to force DZO's into joining the USPA GM program. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,644 #66 November 1, 2003 Quote snip Derek I'd put it more succinctly: USPA is trying to serve two masters, and it just can't be done.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #67 November 1, 2003 Exactly, and when USPA must chosse between it's members or Group Members, the GM's win every time. With the USPA it is GM's first, individual members second. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
