Jimbo 0 #1 November 3, 2003 I'm curious, has anyone ever been to a DZ and been told that you can not jump the canopy in your container because it is beyond your skill level, too high a wingload, etc.. etc.. etc.. Ever been around and seen it happen? How did you deal with it? How did the DZ approach what has to be a delicate situation? If you saw it happen, what was your impression regarding both sides of the conversation? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conquest150 0 #2 November 3, 2003 the dropzone that i jump at has a wingloading chart that they abide by. They will not let you jump if you exceed your wingloading for your amount of jumps. They have told people that they can not jump because of their wingloading and we lost a couple of our jumpers when they first started to enforce the chart. We have also had some visitors show up and they did not fall into their category because their wingload was too high but we offered them another canopy to jump and we went on and had some fun jumps. As long as the people that are in charge go about dealing with it in a professional and polite manner there shouldnt be that big of a deal and i know that I personally wouldnt have a problem with it because they are showing that they care and dont want to see me get hurt. But as far as me being told that i cant jump cuase i have to small of a canopy has never been a problem with me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicrussell 0 #3 November 3, 2003 Did this happen to you? Where and why if applicable. With 500 jumps under your belt and 1.6 wing loading it sounds as if you are about average in wingloading to jump ratio. Any more information? Just a few weeks ago a jumper (under 100 jumps) purchased his canopy (elliptical) at one DZ, his home DZ said not yet , the jumper went to another DZ on his way home. The rest of the story is in the incedents forum. nic Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #4 November 3, 2003 QuoteDid this happen to you? Nope. Just curious. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicrussell 0 #5 November 3, 2003 Can you give us an example of this chart? maybe a picture of it. Does the DZ charge for parachute rental, do they still use their own rig? Are the loaners similar to the jumpers own canopy, just bigger, or are the tired old student canopies? thanks you, nic Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #6 November 3, 2003 There has to be more to base this type of limit on than jump numbers. It should be based on skill level under canopy. If they did it to me (I'm sure I don't fit into their chart), I'd be happy to jump elsewhere. Part of this sport is the freedom we have to choose. If a DZ wants to put limits on wingloading, then those limits should be based upon objective criteria, like accuracy, slowflight, off-field landings, logbook entrys, etc... Scott Miller is compiling a list of what he thinks you should have demonstrated to fly at certain skill levels (int., adv., exp). Otherwise, use USPA's recommendations, which are far behind reasonable (if you have a "D", you are a master skydiver). I just took Scott's course at SDC this weekend, to help me better teach the essentials of canopy control. His points in the course and after in the presentation on Friday night were right on. Hopefully he will get some of that up on the web soon.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Partorg 0 #7 November 3, 2003 Freedom....That the key word. I was waiting for someone to mention that we are in the United States of America and we should have our freedom of choice, where to jump and how to jump. Bycott those M...F... who are stepping on our rights. Let them sit at their dropzones without a single high-jumper. Every one of us has to take responsibility for the actions we take. Their duty is to let us know what is dangerous and what is not, but the choice should be ours. Thanks.I'll see you when I see you and if I don't see you.........Hell with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #8 November 3, 2003 QuoteAs long as the people that are in charge go about dealing with it in a professional and polite manner there shouldnt be that big of a deal That's the key right there. Unfortunately I've witness a DZO not being so polite and professional when he felt that the jumper wasn't ready for the canopy they wanted to jump. Naturally the jumper was grounded from the DZ and the jumper ended up taking his canopy and money to a DZ that would allow him to jump his canopy. It us up to the DZO to decided what happens at his place of business, but being polite and professional goes a long way.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #9 November 3, 2003 >I was waiting for someone to mention that we are in the United > States of America and we should have our freedom of choice, where > to jump and how to jump. While you're absolutely right, that applies to DZO's as well. They should have the freedom to have any type of canopies allowed (and prohibited) that they choose. If you don't like it, don't jump there. The DZ's that start restrictions may do more poorly because the low time high wing loadings will avoid them - they may do better in the long run because their drop zones are that much safer, and people will want to jump at safe DZ's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kai2k1 0 #10 November 3, 2003 As ong as DZ's remain private businesses they can do whtever they want. If they want everyone jumping manta 288's thats their decision. I feel that they were right by looking out for the safety of the guy in question. He also has the right to go somewhere else. Edited to ADD: "HE" is a general term and is in no way meant to infer anybody posting in this discussion. There's no truer sense of flying than sky diving," Scott Cowan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #11 November 3, 2003 QuoteFreedom....That the key word. I was waiting for someone to mention that we are in the United States of America and we should have our freedom of choice, where to jump and how to jump. Bycott those M...F... who are stepping on our rights. Let them sit at their dropzones without a single high-jumper. Every one of us has to take responsibility for the actions we take. Their duty is to let us know what is dangerous and what is not, but the choice should be ours. Thanks. You do have freedom..... to splatter yourself elsewhere! You do not have the freedom to jump at their DZ as it will be them that will have to scoop up the mess you leave behind exercising what you have called your freedom. You say it is only their duty to tell you what is dangerous. So in other words they should just let first time jumpers put on a rig and jump as long as they tell them it is dangerous? Kinda like if the car manufacture built cars with no brakes, as long as they said it was dangerous to buy and drive them they should be allowed to sell them..Doesn't wash! MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #12 November 3, 2003 Best grounding ever - S&TA wanted to ground a jumper but the DZO said no. He took his rig to the loft for a repack and the rigger had him put it on and pull the handles. He let it sit in a tub for a month because he just couldn't get to it or kept forgetting. Kept lending him a rig with a larger canopy for free if he wanted to go jump. That is a good rigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #13 November 3, 2003 QuoteBest grounding ever - S&TA wanted to ground a jumper but the DZO said no. He took his rig to the loft for a repack and the rigger had him put it on and pull the handles. He let it sit in a tub for a month because he just couldn't get to it or kept forgetting. Kept lending him a rig with a larger canopy for free if he wanted to go jump. That is a good rigger. That is BRILLIANT! - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #14 November 3, 2003 QuoteFreedom....That the key word. I was waiting for someone to mention that we are in the United States of America and we should have our freedom of choice, where to jump and how to jump. Bycott those M...F... who are stepping on our rights. Let them sit at their dropzones without a single high-jumper. Every one of us has to take responsibility for the actions we take. Their duty is to let us know what is dangerous and what is not, but the choice should be ours. Thanks. That freedom ends when it jeopardizes the safety of others. If someone wants to do their impression of a Hefty-bag full of vegetable soup hitting the tarmac from a botched hook, that's their right. However, they don't have the right to endager me or others in the process.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #15 November 3, 2003 If I show up at a DZ with a brand new 135..(loaded @ 1.3)..only having jumped manta 288's...I hope like hell that I would be grounded!!!.....however...if I show up with a new 190...(loaded @ .85)....I would hope to be able to jump it. loading numbers will not be endorsed by Crusty Burger Inc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Partorg 0 #16 November 3, 2003 On my home dropzone owners do not force anyone. They don't tell anyone what to do. The experienced divers periodically explain to the newby's the consequences of stupid behavior, one of the best of them I think is Steven Lee. But I repeat no one prohibits anyone from jumping or forcing anyone to make a decision. That's why i believe my home dropzone is blooming. And the dropzones where the high jumpers are under the constant pressure, they are in a deep S... At least two of them that I know had a terrible accident in the recent past. I don't believe in enforcement in order to reach discipline and safety, but I believe in a healthy environment in a dropzone where experience skydivers can influence newby's positively. Thanks.I'll see you when I see you and if I don't see you.........Hell with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conquest150 0 #17 November 3, 2003 here is a link to the chart that is enforced at my dz and as far as kai2k1 sayin "If they want everyone jumping manta 288's thats their decision." That is by far the case and of course im pretty sure you were being sarcastic but i jump a stiletto 135 my dad jumps a stiletto 107 adn we have a velocity 111 adn we also have a alpha 94 at our dz just as long as they are in accordance with teh chart. http://skydivecoastalcarolinas.com/wing%20loading.htm there is the chart that we go by and it has run pretty smoothly with that chart except for when it was first being enforced other than that we have had no problem with people abiding by that and if they cant jump their canopy other jumpers will more than likely let them borrow a rig for no charge adn if the person chooses to use a student rig i believe the charge is 15 to 25 dollars Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #18 November 4, 2003 Quotehat freedom ends when it jeopardizes the safety of others. If someone wants to do their impression of a Hefty-bag full of vegetable soup hitting the tarmac from a botched hook, that's their right. However, they don't have the right to endager me or others in the process. Well put!!!!!!!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #19 November 4, 2003 Damn, I couldn't jump there... Is there the ability to prove your ability at your wingloading to unground yourself?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #20 November 4, 2003 I applaude you guys for standing by your ground. It's your DZ and do with it as you will. I even almost agree with all the wing loadings! Do you guys take into account if somebody has taken a canopy control course?Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #21 November 4, 2003 I couldn't jump there as well. I'm .1 over their limit for my current jump numbers. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #22 November 4, 2003 Yeah, I have 850-ish jumps (I'd have to look at my pro-track) and load my demo (which I'm about to order the same kind/size) at 1.88:1. Thus I'd be .18 over.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites webracer 0 #23 November 4, 2003 Billvon, Quotethey may do better in the long run because their drop zones are that much safer, and people will want to jump at safe DZ's. I know you are not stating that because they limit wingloading, they will be safer. This must be a typo. Pretty hard to back that up. I jump at a very progressive DZ, where none of these limits are imposed. The people most getting hurt are low-time jumpers on big canopies. I will give you that when one on a highly loaded canopy biffs, the consequences are almost always more severe then the average broken ankle.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #24 November 4, 2003 > Damn, I couldn't jump there... True, true. But is that a big deal? I'm not knocking that DZ, I'm just trying to do comparative perspective here: the DZ wants their own wingloading rule, so it's clearly important to them. Is it that important to you that you can't jump there? Right now, I don't see any conflict; this is just one DZ and they're a long way away from a lost of us. In the future there could be a lot more DZs that do this, to the point lots of us begin to care. But by then we can just have more jumps and/or higher licenses. To me, that chart looked at once not unreasonable but not guaranteed to ensure "sufficient safety". The only data point that jumps out at me is the way they say "if you are a sub-100 jump wonder, we do not want you at 1.6lb/sf!". Above that it gets muddy. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites webracer 0 #25 November 4, 2003 Well, according to that link... QuoteIf you have an A license, but have 7000 jumps, you will only be allowed to jump up to the 25 jump wing load. And I will scold you as to why you haven't paid the $20.00 for your D license. While this situation is almost impossible, it still is an ridiculous statement. It's his DZ, and all in all the chart is not that out of whack, even though it is based soley upon jump numbers. At least after 1000 he lets you decide. I still think I would avoid it on principle. I wouldn't want to be a danger to his "safe" dropzone.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
AggieDave 6 #19 November 4, 2003 Damn, I couldn't jump there... Is there the ability to prove your ability at your wingloading to unground yourself?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #20 November 4, 2003 I applaude you guys for standing by your ground. It's your DZ and do with it as you will. I even almost agree with all the wing loadings! Do you guys take into account if somebody has taken a canopy control course?Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #21 November 4, 2003 I couldn't jump there as well. I'm .1 over their limit for my current jump numbers. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #22 November 4, 2003 Yeah, I have 850-ish jumps (I'd have to look at my pro-track) and load my demo (which I'm about to order the same kind/size) at 1.88:1. Thus I'd be .18 over.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #23 November 4, 2003 Billvon, Quotethey may do better in the long run because their drop zones are that much safer, and people will want to jump at safe DZ's. I know you are not stating that because they limit wingloading, they will be safer. This must be a typo. Pretty hard to back that up. I jump at a very progressive DZ, where none of these limits are imposed. The people most getting hurt are low-time jumpers on big canopies. I will give you that when one on a highly loaded canopy biffs, the consequences are almost always more severe then the average broken ankle.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #24 November 4, 2003 > Damn, I couldn't jump there... True, true. But is that a big deal? I'm not knocking that DZ, I'm just trying to do comparative perspective here: the DZ wants their own wingloading rule, so it's clearly important to them. Is it that important to you that you can't jump there? Right now, I don't see any conflict; this is just one DZ and they're a long way away from a lost of us. In the future there could be a lot more DZs that do this, to the point lots of us begin to care. But by then we can just have more jumps and/or higher licenses. To me, that chart looked at once not unreasonable but not guaranteed to ensure "sufficient safety". The only data point that jumps out at me is the way they say "if you are a sub-100 jump wonder, we do not want you at 1.6lb/sf!". Above that it gets muddy. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #25 November 4, 2003 Well, according to that link... QuoteIf you have an A license, but have 7000 jumps, you will only be allowed to jump up to the 25 jump wing load. And I will scold you as to why you haven't paid the $20.00 for your D license. While this situation is almost impossible, it still is an ridiculous statement. It's his DZ, and all in all the chart is not that out of whack, even though it is based soley upon jump numbers. At least after 1000 he lets you decide. I still think I would avoid it on principle. I wouldn't want to be a danger to his "safe" dropzone.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
