jmpnkramer 0 #76 December 16, 2003 People, People. This thread is not about asking for a logbook which every DZ I have been to does. It is about having all the jumps signed even though you are a "D" licensed Jumper. Get Back on track and pay attention. A Pro-Track should not be taken as a logbook. I can program any number I want into the Pro-Track. An actual logbook that has numerous jumps in it should look kind of shabby unless you just started. I mean I would question a logbook with 1,000 jumps in it that looked brand new. That would be suspicious. I personally carry all of my logbooks whenever I travel in a waterproof bag. Laters, KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER! "HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!" "Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #77 December 16, 2003 Hi John, Sorry I didn't meet you at POPs. My experience with not having even kept a log book in over 1000 jumps was to fill out a blank copy of a log book page when I signed the waivers at the world record attempts. As for Kramer, I think maybe laughing about it and asking for a dzm may have satisfied them. Sometimes attitude begets attitude. The people there were extremely polite and helpful with me but then it may have had to do with my attitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #78 December 16, 2003 >Neither FAA, USPA, nor anyone else, requires me to get someone >else's signature in my pilot's log book or skydiving log book each >time I fly or jump in order to prove currency. So if you signed off your own biennial, there would be no problem with an FAA inspector who wanted to see your logbook? Might an FBO where you wanted to rent a plane require you to take a checkride with one of their pilots first, rather than just trust your competence and currency in that type of plane? >If FAA and USPA trusts my honesty about currency, why can't Perris? Hmm. USPA doesn't trust that you really did all those jumps when you apply for a new license - they want an instructor to sign them off. Heck, I wouldn't trust a jumper I didn't know who came to me while I was S+TA of Brown with a logbook filled with their own signatures. I mean, it's easy enough to forge a logbook and get other people to sign it, but at least then other people have a chance of seeing what's going on. (And yes, I did catch one guy who signed different people's names in his own hand.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpnkramer 0 #79 December 16, 2003 QuoteAs for Kramer, I think maybe laughing about it and asking for a dzm may have satisfied them. Sometimes attitude begets attitude. As I stated in an earlier post I was not the one with the attitude which my witness can attest to. The individual trying to do check in was an un-informed individual and talking out of their ASS. Showing the logbook is not the issue. Do not Quote the U.S.P.A. incorrectly as this individual did. If Perris requies a signature then fine. This person also mis-quoted by stating that the individual signing the logbook had to be on the jump. It seems as though you travel to do records a bit though and your face might be more well known on the west coast whereas mine is not. Laters, KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER! "HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!" "Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,649 #80 December 16, 2003 Quote>Neither FAA, USPA, nor anyone else, requires me to get someone >else's signature in my pilot's log book or skydiving log book each >time I fly or jump in order to prove currency. So if you signed off your own biennial, there would be no problem with an FAA inspector who wanted to see your logbook? Quote Currency is 3 t/o and ldg in preceding 90 days (including at night if appropriate) and it is all self-reported. Quote Might an FBO where you wanted to rent a plane require you to take a checkride with one of their pilots first, rather than just trust your competence and currency in that type of plane? How would having someone else sign my logbook change that? They'd make you take a check ride if Jesus, Moses and Buddha had signed your log book the day before. You are changing the subject. Quote >If FAA and USPA trusts my honesty about currency, why can't Perris? Hmm. USPA doesn't trust that you really did all those jumps when you apply for a new license - they want an instructor to sign them off. Perris already had my USPA license - the highest license that USPA issues. ALL USPA requirements were satisfied and proved to USPA's satisfaction. And for the Nth time, why don't they want independent verification that I am in good health if they believe I'm a liar?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumperconway 0 #81 December 16, 2003 QuoteQuoteAs for Kramer, I think maybe laughing about it and asking for a dzm may have satisfied them. Sometimes attitude begets attitude. As I stated in an earlier post I was not the one with the attitude which my witness can attest to. The individual trying to do check in was an un-informed individual and talking out of their ASS. If someone is talking out of their ass, see below In which case, why argue with someone who obviously has less knowledge than yourself of requirements. The USPA says jumpers should keep a log of all their jumps, not must. Showing the logbook is not the issue. Do not Quote the U.S.P.A. incorrectly as this individual did. Previously hadn't quoted anyone. If Perris requies a signature then fine. This person also mis-quoted by stating that the individual signing the logbook had to be on the jump. N/A no signiture required except for awards and such and only to verify for USPA jump#'s and freefall time and an S&TA can verify from what source you give them. It seems as though you travel to do records a bit though and your face might be more well known on the west coast whereas mine is not. Presecond time to jump on west coast so that was not the case, and my face isn't even my avatar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #82 December 16, 2003 This being the interesting thread that it is ... With all curiosity, I am not sure that a DZ would be liable or that the person suing them would get very far if the person knowingly and/or blatantly lied on their waiver, brought a fake logbook, etc. That would be misrepresentation and fraud. However, from a DZs standpoint, even defense in a law suit can add up to big bucks real fast and if that person who lied to the DZ goes out and kills or injures another skydiver, then that person or their family may try and sue the DZ for negligence or allowing someone to jump who was not current. Has anything like this ever happened?Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #83 December 16, 2003 When I was visiting Perris a year ago, they wanted to see my log book. I don't have one. Or, at least I don't have a current one, so this was a bit of a problem. I then proceeded into square1, bought a new logbook, logged two jumps that I never did, signed them myself and presented it for evaluation. They knew full well that that was what I'd done, I even told them that. They had no problem with it. They said that since I had my 'd' license, I'm allowed to self-sign my jumps. Perris's enforcement of the logbook thing is silly, and yeah - it's a pain in the ass. It seems like an awefully stupid reason to have someone go to the dropzone down the road... I wonder how many times people haven't been able to get around it like I did, or if magically people always seem to be able to get around it. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #84 December 16, 2003 Heck they have provided me with a sheet with a copy of a blank logbook page before. The point is it's their ball and they can play the game however they want. You have a choice. Either play the game, or go home.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,649 #85 December 17, 2003 QuoteHeck they have provided me with a sheet with a copy of a blank logbook page before. The point is it's their ball and they can play the game however they want. You have a choice. Either play the game, or go home. I agree with this - it's their business and they run it how they see fit as long as they don't break any laws. But the thread is about Perris's hoop course, and there are apparently plenty of witnesses that these hoops really exist. I have not visited any other US dropzone where the check in process was so time consuming and inconvenient. Not one. In fact, even in the UK, famous for petty rules, the only reason it took about as long as Perris was that I had to fill out BPA membership forms too.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites webracer 0 #86 December 17, 2003 John, way to go keeping it on track. Isn't it kinda foolish that they create the hoops, then give certain folks a "gate key?" Maybe the hoops are there to provide a basis for discrimination. Discriminating against who? Professors are one demographic apparently.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rmsmith 1 #87 December 17, 2003 QuoteI agree with this - it's their business and they run it how they see fit as long as they don't break any laws. They are a USPA-GM DZ, and I find it strange that each USPA-GM DZ has a different procedure for visiting USPA members. However, I will side with the DZO who has an interest in protecting assets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #88 December 17, 2003 >And for the Nth time, why don't they want independent verification >that I am in good health if they believe I'm a liar? Dunno. For the same reason they want you to follow other USPA rules, I suppose. (I know, I know, the USPA rule that says other people have to sign your logbook is for USPA's purposes, not for DZ's, but it's still there in the SIM.) Many DZ's have other requirements, like signing away your right to any pictures taken of you at the DZ, or requiring gear that even USPA doesn't require. Apparently some DZ's trust that you can land a Xaos 78 with no verification of training or experience, but don't trust that you can pull (using your logic above.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jmpnkramer 0 #89 December 17, 2003 QuoteIn which case, why argue with someone who obviously has less knowledge than yourself of requirements. I did not waste my time arguing with the uninformed individual. I do keep a log book of my jumps it is just not signed. Maybe we are both a little confused in each others post there Conway but when I say this person or refer to "Person" I am talking about the individual who checked us in. They wanted to quote the U.S.P.A. and had no clue as to what they are talking about. Now we goto Andy's Situation: QuoteThey knew full well that that was what I'd done, I even told them that. They had no problem with it. They said that since I had my 'd' license, I'm allowed to self-sign my jumps. Why was it different for him that day? Obviously Perris does not have a standard by which they train their employee's. Things must be kept consistent. Especially if you are trying to avoid a lawsuit. Now to J.P. : QuoteEither play the game, or go home. I do not have an issue with doing as they wish. Just don't misquote the U.S.P.A. Either know what you are talking about or don't open your Pie Hole! The individual that checked us in was making false statements. Now if she had said "Perris requires that the logbook be signed." That would have been different. This is the main point I am trying to get across. I do not have an issue with specific Drop Zone Rules. Each has their reason for the way that they do things. To WebRacer: QuoteIsn't it kinda foolish that they create the hoops, then give certain folks a "gate key?" If this is the actual case then agreed. I cannot substantiate that claim because I was only there once. Finally: QuoteWe require you to be a USPA member. Please be sure your reserve is in date and bring your identification (drivers license or passport) and your signed log book with you. Your logbook is required to show currency. Here is what it says on the Perris web-page. Therefore if someone wanting to visit the DZ should look at the web-page. If a particular Drop Zone does not have one then a phone call would be in order. I personally have never done this because I have never had an issue in over Ten years of jumping around the U.S. QuoteThe Waiver Process You will pick up a waiver packet from the Manifest Office sales counter. Take the packet with: your gear (if you plan to rent gear just advise us when you check in) your log book your current USPA membership card (if your membership is not current, you can renew it when you check in. You must have a current USPA membership to jump at Perris) your ID (driver's license or passport) to the Perris Valley Skydiving School located on the drop zone. You will be shown a video and then asked to complete and sign the waiver packet. A rigger will inspect your gear. Please note that a Pro-Track can not be used to verify currency. I took this from the Perris web-page as well. In my personal opinion the signed logbook should be reiterated in this section. Laters, KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER! "HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!" "Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #90 December 19, 2003 If you are interested, the Perris Skyventure waiver process took 30 seconds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #91 December 20, 2003 QuoteQuoteHow do you prove currency to the Perris folks, then, like I had to? Different rules for locals? The manifest computer tells them when a person jumped last at Perris, when the person's reserve repack is due and when the person's USPA membership expires. As long as your last jump there was within the currency requirements for your license, your reserve is still in date, your USPA membership hasn't expired and you have at least one jump worth of money on your account.... you're good to go. Doesn't matter if you're a local or visiting. I was a Perris local. I hadn't jumped there in about 8 months once. I had to show them my logbook to prove that I'd jumped within the 6 month D license currency requirement. I don't keep a log book, how would I be able to jump there then?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #92 December 20, 2003 You guys are way over the top here. Perris is one of the busuest DZ's in the world and have seen just about every trick in the book form jumpers and non jumpers tryinf to get over on them. We had a guy coem into Square1 that didn't have a license and no training and wanted to rent gear before. I am sure manifest has had poeple try and get on a plane without a USPA license before as well. AS far as young ones taking liberties without managment consent you are way off base there. Dan Cook and Jana have been around DZ longer then must people have been jumping. They are doing there jobs and what is asked of them by their bosses. Dan is one of the best manifesters in the world hands down! It helps if you don't go in with an attitude. I see people get pissed of at the littlest things. If you go to get your gear checked and you don't have a rigger signature who's fault is that? I see this all the time. If you don't have a signature on your reserve card then that is going to send up a red flag. They will be more strict when checking you in. The thinking has to be "If he can't get his reserve in order, what else is wrong?" Keep in mind that you may be known by everybody at your home DZ. They may trust everything you do or say. It is different out here. We have so many people from all over the world come out, and contrary to what some people believe, all skydivers aren't the most trust worthy people in the world. It is no excuse to be rude to anyone, but with as big a place as it is with as many people coming through on any given day they do a great job! Sorry you guys had a bad experience. But just because you have a D license doesn't entitle any of us to anything special when it comes time to sign a wavier or get a gear check. Perris is a GREAT DZ and all the people that run it are top notch and just about the best at what they do. It is hard to keep all the people happy all the time. With as many people that go throught that DZ on anygiven day can you really blame them for trying to make sure everything is on the up an up with every jumper that gets on a plane. It saves them a lot of law suits I am sure. Bottom line is have your reserve card. log book and USPA membership in order and you will be fine.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #93 December 20, 2003 QuoteI don't keep a log book, how would I be able to jump there then? You may not want to plan your vacation to SoCal... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #94 December 20, 2003 I can understand trying to CYA in lawsuit happy CA, but what about those jumpers that just don't keep a log book and have a D license? Do I need to create a fake log book just to jump there? Waiver, video, gear check don't seem like a big deal to me....status quo in my opinion._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #95 December 20, 2003 It may pain people to know that at EVERY USPA Nationals I've attended they've wanted to see your log book....for currency and proof of licensure (you really -do- have enough jumps for a 'C' license and can participate in 'Advanced' 4-way, for instance.) Be prepared if you're not at your home DZ and want to compete at a Nationals. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #96 December 20, 2003 QuoteIt may pain people to know that at EVERY USPA Nationals I've attended they've wanted to see your log book....for currency and proof of licensure (you really -do- have enough jumps for a 'C' license and can participate in 'Advanced' 4-way, for instance.) Be prepared if you're not at your home DZ and want to compete at a Nationals. ltdiver I can understand Nationals...that makes sense to me. But they didn't even ask for my logbook at Rantoul once I showed my D. I was hoping to visit Perris and Elisinore one day - I would just like to know if I need to create a log book to jump there.....IOW, I would need to transfer my protrack to paper._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #97 December 20, 2003 QuoteI can understand Nationals...that makes sense to me. But they didn't even ask for my logbook at Rantoul once I showed my D. I was hoping to visit Perris and Elisinore one day - I would just like to know if I need to create a log book to jump there.....IOW, I would need to transfer my protrack to paper. Well, the WFFC is a beast unto itself. I can't speak for it, but perhaps skybytch could chime in here. If you understand Nationals, think of Perris like a big Nationals venue. Lots of people to try and keep in order (as far as licensure, USPA 3rd party insurance, and currency) and you'll understand what it just might be about. As for keeping a written word on your jumps in additions to your Protrack. Might be a good idea anyway. People have been known to lose an instrument like that in freefall....or heaven forbid the little computer element goes out...and you lose record of your jumps that way. I know some people who keep a Protrack -and- an on-line log book just for safe keeping. And when traveling, they just print out their log book and they're good to go. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #98 December 20, 2003 QuoteI can understand Nationals...that makes sense to me. Why does it make sense at the Nationals but not at Perris? On a good weekend, Perris will have almost as many jumpers as the Nationals.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akarunway 1 #99 December 20, 2003 Wouldn't some current video of yourself in the air help? It has for me.I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #100 December 20, 2003 QuoteQuoteI can understand Nationals...that makes sense to me. Why does it make sense at the Nationals but not at Perris? On a good weekend, Perris will have almost as many jumpers as the Nationals. Because records, bragging rights, etc are on the line at Nationals.....and there are some people out there that would try to cheat just to bring home a medal._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... 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jumperconway 0 #81 December 16, 2003 QuoteQuoteAs for Kramer, I think maybe laughing about it and asking for a dzm may have satisfied them. Sometimes attitude begets attitude. As I stated in an earlier post I was not the one with the attitude which my witness can attest to. The individual trying to do check in was an un-informed individual and talking out of their ASS. If someone is talking out of their ass, see below In which case, why argue with someone who obviously has less knowledge than yourself of requirements. The USPA says jumpers should keep a log of all their jumps, not must. Showing the logbook is not the issue. Do not Quote the U.S.P.A. incorrectly as this individual did. Previously hadn't quoted anyone. If Perris requies a signature then fine. This person also mis-quoted by stating that the individual signing the logbook had to be on the jump. N/A no signiture required except for awards and such and only to verify for USPA jump#'s and freefall time and an S&TA can verify from what source you give them. It seems as though you travel to do records a bit though and your face might be more well known on the west coast whereas mine is not. Presecond time to jump on west coast so that was not the case, and my face isn't even my avatar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #82 December 16, 2003 This being the interesting thread that it is ... With all curiosity, I am not sure that a DZ would be liable or that the person suing them would get very far if the person knowingly and/or blatantly lied on their waiver, brought a fake logbook, etc. That would be misrepresentation and fraud. However, from a DZs standpoint, even defense in a law suit can add up to big bucks real fast and if that person who lied to the DZ goes out and kills or injures another skydiver, then that person or their family may try and sue the DZ for negligence or allowing someone to jump who was not current. Has anything like this ever happened?Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #83 December 16, 2003 When I was visiting Perris a year ago, they wanted to see my log book. I don't have one. Or, at least I don't have a current one, so this was a bit of a problem. I then proceeded into square1, bought a new logbook, logged two jumps that I never did, signed them myself and presented it for evaluation. They knew full well that that was what I'd done, I even told them that. They had no problem with it. They said that since I had my 'd' license, I'm allowed to self-sign my jumps. Perris's enforcement of the logbook thing is silly, and yeah - it's a pain in the ass. It seems like an awefully stupid reason to have someone go to the dropzone down the road... I wonder how many times people haven't been able to get around it like I did, or if magically people always seem to be able to get around it. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #84 December 16, 2003 Heck they have provided me with a sheet with a copy of a blank logbook page before. The point is it's their ball and they can play the game however they want. You have a choice. Either play the game, or go home.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,649 #85 December 17, 2003 QuoteHeck they have provided me with a sheet with a copy of a blank logbook page before. The point is it's their ball and they can play the game however they want. You have a choice. Either play the game, or go home. I agree with this - it's their business and they run it how they see fit as long as they don't break any laws. But the thread is about Perris's hoop course, and there are apparently plenty of witnesses that these hoops really exist. I have not visited any other US dropzone where the check in process was so time consuming and inconvenient. Not one. In fact, even in the UK, famous for petty rules, the only reason it took about as long as Perris was that I had to fill out BPA membership forms too.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites webracer 0 #86 December 17, 2003 John, way to go keeping it on track. Isn't it kinda foolish that they create the hoops, then give certain folks a "gate key?" Maybe the hoops are there to provide a basis for discrimination. Discriminating against who? Professors are one demographic apparently.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rmsmith 1 #87 December 17, 2003 QuoteI agree with this - it's their business and they run it how they see fit as long as they don't break any laws. They are a USPA-GM DZ, and I find it strange that each USPA-GM DZ has a different procedure for visiting USPA members. However, I will side with the DZO who has an interest in protecting assets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #88 December 17, 2003 >And for the Nth time, why don't they want independent verification >that I am in good health if they believe I'm a liar? Dunno. For the same reason they want you to follow other USPA rules, I suppose. (I know, I know, the USPA rule that says other people have to sign your logbook is for USPA's purposes, not for DZ's, but it's still there in the SIM.) Many DZ's have other requirements, like signing away your right to any pictures taken of you at the DZ, or requiring gear that even USPA doesn't require. Apparently some DZ's trust that you can land a Xaos 78 with no verification of training or experience, but don't trust that you can pull (using your logic above.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jmpnkramer 0 #89 December 17, 2003 QuoteIn which case, why argue with someone who obviously has less knowledge than yourself of requirements. I did not waste my time arguing with the uninformed individual. I do keep a log book of my jumps it is just not signed. Maybe we are both a little confused in each others post there Conway but when I say this person or refer to "Person" I am talking about the individual who checked us in. They wanted to quote the U.S.P.A. and had no clue as to what they are talking about. Now we goto Andy's Situation: QuoteThey knew full well that that was what I'd done, I even told them that. They had no problem with it. They said that since I had my 'd' license, I'm allowed to self-sign my jumps. Why was it different for him that day? Obviously Perris does not have a standard by which they train their employee's. Things must be kept consistent. Especially if you are trying to avoid a lawsuit. Now to J.P. : QuoteEither play the game, or go home. I do not have an issue with doing as they wish. Just don't misquote the U.S.P.A. Either know what you are talking about or don't open your Pie Hole! The individual that checked us in was making false statements. Now if she had said "Perris requires that the logbook be signed." That would have been different. This is the main point I am trying to get across. I do not have an issue with specific Drop Zone Rules. Each has their reason for the way that they do things. To WebRacer: QuoteIsn't it kinda foolish that they create the hoops, then give certain folks a "gate key?" If this is the actual case then agreed. I cannot substantiate that claim because I was only there once. Finally: QuoteWe require you to be a USPA member. Please be sure your reserve is in date and bring your identification (drivers license or passport) and your signed log book with you. Your logbook is required to show currency. Here is what it says on the Perris web-page. Therefore if someone wanting to visit the DZ should look at the web-page. If a particular Drop Zone does not have one then a phone call would be in order. I personally have never done this because I have never had an issue in over Ten years of jumping around the U.S. QuoteThe Waiver Process You will pick up a waiver packet from the Manifest Office sales counter. Take the packet with: your gear (if you plan to rent gear just advise us when you check in) your log book your current USPA membership card (if your membership is not current, you can renew it when you check in. You must have a current USPA membership to jump at Perris) your ID (driver's license or passport) to the Perris Valley Skydiving School located on the drop zone. You will be shown a video and then asked to complete and sign the waiver packet. A rigger will inspect your gear. Please note that a Pro-Track can not be used to verify currency. I took this from the Perris web-page as well. In my personal opinion the signed logbook should be reiterated in this section. Laters, KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER! "HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!" "Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #90 December 19, 2003 If you are interested, the Perris Skyventure waiver process took 30 seconds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #91 December 20, 2003 QuoteQuoteHow do you prove currency to the Perris folks, then, like I had to? Different rules for locals? The manifest computer tells them when a person jumped last at Perris, when the person's reserve repack is due and when the person's USPA membership expires. As long as your last jump there was within the currency requirements for your license, your reserve is still in date, your USPA membership hasn't expired and you have at least one jump worth of money on your account.... you're good to go. Doesn't matter if you're a local or visiting. I was a Perris local. I hadn't jumped there in about 8 months once. I had to show them my logbook to prove that I'd jumped within the 6 month D license currency requirement. I don't keep a log book, how would I be able to jump there then?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #92 December 20, 2003 You guys are way over the top here. Perris is one of the busuest DZ's in the world and have seen just about every trick in the book form jumpers and non jumpers tryinf to get over on them. We had a guy coem into Square1 that didn't have a license and no training and wanted to rent gear before. I am sure manifest has had poeple try and get on a plane without a USPA license before as well. AS far as young ones taking liberties without managment consent you are way off base there. Dan Cook and Jana have been around DZ longer then must people have been jumping. They are doing there jobs and what is asked of them by their bosses. Dan is one of the best manifesters in the world hands down! It helps if you don't go in with an attitude. I see people get pissed of at the littlest things. If you go to get your gear checked and you don't have a rigger signature who's fault is that? I see this all the time. If you don't have a signature on your reserve card then that is going to send up a red flag. They will be more strict when checking you in. The thinking has to be "If he can't get his reserve in order, what else is wrong?" Keep in mind that you may be known by everybody at your home DZ. They may trust everything you do or say. It is different out here. We have so many people from all over the world come out, and contrary to what some people believe, all skydivers aren't the most trust worthy people in the world. It is no excuse to be rude to anyone, but with as big a place as it is with as many people coming through on any given day they do a great job! Sorry you guys had a bad experience. But just because you have a D license doesn't entitle any of us to anything special when it comes time to sign a wavier or get a gear check. Perris is a GREAT DZ and all the people that run it are top notch and just about the best at what they do. It is hard to keep all the people happy all the time. With as many people that go throught that DZ on anygiven day can you really blame them for trying to make sure everything is on the up an up with every jumper that gets on a plane. It saves them a lot of law suits I am sure. Bottom line is have your reserve card. log book and USPA membership in order and you will be fine.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #93 December 20, 2003 QuoteI don't keep a log book, how would I be able to jump there then? You may not want to plan your vacation to SoCal... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #94 December 20, 2003 I can understand trying to CYA in lawsuit happy CA, but what about those jumpers that just don't keep a log book and have a D license? Do I need to create a fake log book just to jump there? Waiver, video, gear check don't seem like a big deal to me....status quo in my opinion._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #95 December 20, 2003 It may pain people to know that at EVERY USPA Nationals I've attended they've wanted to see your log book....for currency and proof of licensure (you really -do- have enough jumps for a 'C' license and can participate in 'Advanced' 4-way, for instance.) Be prepared if you're not at your home DZ and want to compete at a Nationals. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #96 December 20, 2003 QuoteIt may pain people to know that at EVERY USPA Nationals I've attended they've wanted to see your log book....for currency and proof of licensure (you really -do- have enough jumps for a 'C' license and can participate in 'Advanced' 4-way, for instance.) Be prepared if you're not at your home DZ and want to compete at a Nationals. ltdiver I can understand Nationals...that makes sense to me. But they didn't even ask for my logbook at Rantoul once I showed my D. I was hoping to visit Perris and Elisinore one day - I would just like to know if I need to create a log book to jump there.....IOW, I would need to transfer my protrack to paper._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #97 December 20, 2003 QuoteI can understand Nationals...that makes sense to me. But they didn't even ask for my logbook at Rantoul once I showed my D. I was hoping to visit Perris and Elisinore one day - I would just like to know if I need to create a log book to jump there.....IOW, I would need to transfer my protrack to paper. Well, the WFFC is a beast unto itself. I can't speak for it, but perhaps skybytch could chime in here. If you understand Nationals, think of Perris like a big Nationals venue. Lots of people to try and keep in order (as far as licensure, USPA 3rd party insurance, and currency) and you'll understand what it just might be about. As for keeping a written word on your jumps in additions to your Protrack. Might be a good idea anyway. People have been known to lose an instrument like that in freefall....or heaven forbid the little computer element goes out...and you lose record of your jumps that way. I know some people who keep a Protrack -and- an on-line log book just for safe keeping. And when traveling, they just print out their log book and they're good to go. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #98 December 20, 2003 QuoteI can understand Nationals...that makes sense to me. Why does it make sense at the Nationals but not at Perris? On a good weekend, Perris will have almost as many jumpers as the Nationals.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akarunway 1 #99 December 20, 2003 Wouldn't some current video of yourself in the air help? It has for me.I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #100 December 20, 2003 QuoteQuoteI can understand Nationals...that makes sense to me. Why does it make sense at the Nationals but not at Perris? On a good weekend, Perris will have almost as many jumpers as the Nationals. Because records, bragging rights, etc are on the line at Nationals.....and there are some people out there that would try to cheat just to bring home a medal._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... 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NoShitThereIWas 0 #82 December 16, 2003 This being the interesting thread that it is ... With all curiosity, I am not sure that a DZ would be liable or that the person suing them would get very far if the person knowingly and/or blatantly lied on their waiver, brought a fake logbook, etc. That would be misrepresentation and fraud. However, from a DZs standpoint, even defense in a law suit can add up to big bucks real fast and if that person who lied to the DZ goes out and kills or injures another skydiver, then that person or their family may try and sue the DZ for negligence or allowing someone to jump who was not current. Has anything like this ever happened?Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #83 December 16, 2003 When I was visiting Perris a year ago, they wanted to see my log book. I don't have one. Or, at least I don't have a current one, so this was a bit of a problem. I then proceeded into square1, bought a new logbook, logged two jumps that I never did, signed them myself and presented it for evaluation. They knew full well that that was what I'd done, I even told them that. They had no problem with it. They said that since I had my 'd' license, I'm allowed to self-sign my jumps. Perris's enforcement of the logbook thing is silly, and yeah - it's a pain in the ass. It seems like an awefully stupid reason to have someone go to the dropzone down the road... I wonder how many times people haven't been able to get around it like I did, or if magically people always seem to be able to get around it. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #84 December 16, 2003 Heck they have provided me with a sheet with a copy of a blank logbook page before. The point is it's their ball and they can play the game however they want. You have a choice. Either play the game, or go home.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,649 #85 December 17, 2003 QuoteHeck they have provided me with a sheet with a copy of a blank logbook page before. The point is it's their ball and they can play the game however they want. You have a choice. Either play the game, or go home. I agree with this - it's their business and they run it how they see fit as long as they don't break any laws. But the thread is about Perris's hoop course, and there are apparently plenty of witnesses that these hoops really exist. I have not visited any other US dropzone where the check in process was so time consuming and inconvenient. Not one. In fact, even in the UK, famous for petty rules, the only reason it took about as long as Perris was that I had to fill out BPA membership forms too.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #86 December 17, 2003 John, way to go keeping it on track. Isn't it kinda foolish that they create the hoops, then give certain folks a "gate key?" Maybe the hoops are there to provide a basis for discrimination. Discriminating against who? Professors are one demographic apparently.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #87 December 17, 2003 QuoteI agree with this - it's their business and they run it how they see fit as long as they don't break any laws. They are a USPA-GM DZ, and I find it strange that each USPA-GM DZ has a different procedure for visiting USPA members. However, I will side with the DZO who has an interest in protecting assets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #88 December 17, 2003 >And for the Nth time, why don't they want independent verification >that I am in good health if they believe I'm a liar? Dunno. For the same reason they want you to follow other USPA rules, I suppose. (I know, I know, the USPA rule that says other people have to sign your logbook is for USPA's purposes, not for DZ's, but it's still there in the SIM.) Many DZ's have other requirements, like signing away your right to any pictures taken of you at the DZ, or requiring gear that even USPA doesn't require. Apparently some DZ's trust that you can land a Xaos 78 with no verification of training or experience, but don't trust that you can pull (using your logic above.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpnkramer 0 #89 December 17, 2003 QuoteIn which case, why argue with someone who obviously has less knowledge than yourself of requirements. I did not waste my time arguing with the uninformed individual. I do keep a log book of my jumps it is just not signed. Maybe we are both a little confused in each others post there Conway but when I say this person or refer to "Person" I am talking about the individual who checked us in. They wanted to quote the U.S.P.A. and had no clue as to what they are talking about. Now we goto Andy's Situation: QuoteThey knew full well that that was what I'd done, I even told them that. They had no problem with it. They said that since I had my 'd' license, I'm allowed to self-sign my jumps. Why was it different for him that day? Obviously Perris does not have a standard by which they train their employee's. Things must be kept consistent. Especially if you are trying to avoid a lawsuit. Now to J.P. : QuoteEither play the game, or go home. I do not have an issue with doing as they wish. Just don't misquote the U.S.P.A. Either know what you are talking about or don't open your Pie Hole! The individual that checked us in was making false statements. Now if she had said "Perris requires that the logbook be signed." That would have been different. This is the main point I am trying to get across. I do not have an issue with specific Drop Zone Rules. Each has their reason for the way that they do things. To WebRacer: QuoteIsn't it kinda foolish that they create the hoops, then give certain folks a "gate key?" If this is the actual case then agreed. I cannot substantiate that claim because I was only there once. Finally: QuoteWe require you to be a USPA member. Please be sure your reserve is in date and bring your identification (drivers license or passport) and your signed log book with you. Your logbook is required to show currency. Here is what it says on the Perris web-page. Therefore if someone wanting to visit the DZ should look at the web-page. If a particular Drop Zone does not have one then a phone call would be in order. I personally have never done this because I have never had an issue in over Ten years of jumping around the U.S. QuoteThe Waiver Process You will pick up a waiver packet from the Manifest Office sales counter. Take the packet with: your gear (if you plan to rent gear just advise us when you check in) your log book your current USPA membership card (if your membership is not current, you can renew it when you check in. You must have a current USPA membership to jump at Perris) your ID (driver's license or passport) to the Perris Valley Skydiving School located on the drop zone. You will be shown a video and then asked to complete and sign the waiver packet. A rigger will inspect your gear. Please note that a Pro-Track can not be used to verify currency. I took this from the Perris web-page as well. In my personal opinion the signed logbook should be reiterated in this section. Laters, KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER! "HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!" "Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #90 December 19, 2003 If you are interested, the Perris Skyventure waiver process took 30 seconds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #91 December 20, 2003 QuoteQuoteHow do you prove currency to the Perris folks, then, like I had to? Different rules for locals? The manifest computer tells them when a person jumped last at Perris, when the person's reserve repack is due and when the person's USPA membership expires. As long as your last jump there was within the currency requirements for your license, your reserve is still in date, your USPA membership hasn't expired and you have at least one jump worth of money on your account.... you're good to go. Doesn't matter if you're a local or visiting. I was a Perris local. I hadn't jumped there in about 8 months once. I had to show them my logbook to prove that I'd jumped within the 6 month D license currency requirement. I don't keep a log book, how would I be able to jump there then?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #92 December 20, 2003 You guys are way over the top here. Perris is one of the busuest DZ's in the world and have seen just about every trick in the book form jumpers and non jumpers tryinf to get over on them. We had a guy coem into Square1 that didn't have a license and no training and wanted to rent gear before. I am sure manifest has had poeple try and get on a plane without a USPA license before as well. AS far as young ones taking liberties without managment consent you are way off base there. Dan Cook and Jana have been around DZ longer then must people have been jumping. They are doing there jobs and what is asked of them by their bosses. Dan is one of the best manifesters in the world hands down! It helps if you don't go in with an attitude. I see people get pissed of at the littlest things. If you go to get your gear checked and you don't have a rigger signature who's fault is that? I see this all the time. If you don't have a signature on your reserve card then that is going to send up a red flag. They will be more strict when checking you in. The thinking has to be "If he can't get his reserve in order, what else is wrong?" Keep in mind that you may be known by everybody at your home DZ. They may trust everything you do or say. It is different out here. We have so many people from all over the world come out, and contrary to what some people believe, all skydivers aren't the most trust worthy people in the world. It is no excuse to be rude to anyone, but with as big a place as it is with as many people coming through on any given day they do a great job! Sorry you guys had a bad experience. But just because you have a D license doesn't entitle any of us to anything special when it comes time to sign a wavier or get a gear check. Perris is a GREAT DZ and all the people that run it are top notch and just about the best at what they do. It is hard to keep all the people happy all the time. With as many people that go throught that DZ on anygiven day can you really blame them for trying to make sure everything is on the up an up with every jumper that gets on a plane. It saves them a lot of law suits I am sure. Bottom line is have your reserve card. log book and USPA membership in order and you will be fine.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #93 December 20, 2003 QuoteI don't keep a log book, how would I be able to jump there then? You may not want to plan your vacation to SoCal... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #94 December 20, 2003 I can understand trying to CYA in lawsuit happy CA, but what about those jumpers that just don't keep a log book and have a D license? Do I need to create a fake log book just to jump there? Waiver, video, gear check don't seem like a big deal to me....status quo in my opinion._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #95 December 20, 2003 It may pain people to know that at EVERY USPA Nationals I've attended they've wanted to see your log book....for currency and proof of licensure (you really -do- have enough jumps for a 'C' license and can participate in 'Advanced' 4-way, for instance.) Be prepared if you're not at your home DZ and want to compete at a Nationals. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #96 December 20, 2003 QuoteIt may pain people to know that at EVERY USPA Nationals I've attended they've wanted to see your log book....for currency and proof of licensure (you really -do- have enough jumps for a 'C' license and can participate in 'Advanced' 4-way, for instance.) Be prepared if you're not at your home DZ and want to compete at a Nationals. ltdiver I can understand Nationals...that makes sense to me. But they didn't even ask for my logbook at Rantoul once I showed my D. I was hoping to visit Perris and Elisinore one day - I would just like to know if I need to create a log book to jump there.....IOW, I would need to transfer my protrack to paper._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #97 December 20, 2003 QuoteI can understand Nationals...that makes sense to me. But they didn't even ask for my logbook at Rantoul once I showed my D. I was hoping to visit Perris and Elisinore one day - I would just like to know if I need to create a log book to jump there.....IOW, I would need to transfer my protrack to paper. Well, the WFFC is a beast unto itself. I can't speak for it, but perhaps skybytch could chime in here. If you understand Nationals, think of Perris like a big Nationals venue. Lots of people to try and keep in order (as far as licensure, USPA 3rd party insurance, and currency) and you'll understand what it just might be about. As for keeping a written word on your jumps in additions to your Protrack. Might be a good idea anyway. People have been known to lose an instrument like that in freefall....or heaven forbid the little computer element goes out...and you lose record of your jumps that way. I know some people who keep a Protrack -and- an on-line log book just for safe keeping. And when traveling, they just print out their log book and they're good to go. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #98 December 20, 2003 QuoteI can understand Nationals...that makes sense to me. Why does it make sense at the Nationals but not at Perris? On a good weekend, Perris will have almost as many jumpers as the Nationals.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #99 December 20, 2003 Wouldn't some current video of yourself in the air help? It has for me.I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #100 December 20, 2003 QuoteQuoteI can understand Nationals...that makes sense to me. Why does it make sense at the Nationals but not at Perris? On a good weekend, Perris will have almost as many jumpers as the Nationals. Because records, bragging rights, etc are on the line at Nationals.....and there are some people out there that would try to cheat just to bring home a medal._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
