Skygod Tandems???

[WrongWay 0]

Okay, first of all, before I offend anybody, I'm not speaking of anyone at my dz, or anyone specifically on here, nor am I slamming on the hard working tandem masters that do an excellent job (and stay modest about the rest of the sport). I'm just making a general point.

One of everyone's biggest pet peeves in this sport are Skygods. However, some people rightfully know A LOT about a certain aspect of it, such as Olav for freefly, the guys from Airspeed for RW, you get the point. Tandem masters are certainly the guys to go to about advice on tandems.

But what REALLY pisses me off is when some tandem master comes up to me and tries to act big shit because he/she has 4000 jumps, when 3500 of which are tandems. Too many times have I gone to different dz's and have tandem people talk big shit about how many jumps they have. I'm sorry, but 3000 tandem skydives does not make you a good freeflyer, nor does it make you a 4-way god, so unless I want advice on how to do a tandem, what right do you have to brag?

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT a tandem master, and I have great respect for those who are, simply because it's their job to present a good image to the whuffo community, and this is most people's main source of income, and most are very good at what they do. Still, 4000 jumps or 10000, it does not make you good at EVERY discipline, only good at doing tandems.

I find that many experienced jumpers get the rating just so they can acquire this many jumps relatively quickly, then be able to say "I have 3000 jumps, you have to listen to me.". I'm sure everyone has seen it at some point. I've seen it from several places I've gone.


All I'm trying to do here is send out a quick message for love and mutual respect within the skydiving community.

To experienced tandem masters: You do a great job at what you do, and your thousands of tandems give you the experience needed to promote a good, safe image to all the one time jumpers who come out to the dz, then go home to show their video to all the whuffos, bringing at least of few more jumpers to our world. For that, we are ALL grateful. But please, if you have 5000 tandem dives, but only 200 freefly dives and 300 RW dives (most a few years ago), please do not try to tell me or any other licensed jumper how to skydive.

To new tandem masters: Remember what you're in the sport for. Remember that number of jumps does not equal knowledge of the sport in every aspect. Be responsible and modest when it comes to giving advice or speaking of your own skills. You are not a skygod, no matter how many jumps you get doing tandems.

Thanks for listening to my rant, and please remember, I'm not slamming the experienced TM's here. They all do an excellent job, and my hat goes off to them. But I felt this issue needed to be addressed, and I would appreciate your listening with an open mind.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[elfanie 0]

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But what REALLY pisses me off is when some tandem master comes up to me and tries to act big shit because he/she has 4000 jumps, when 3500 of which are tandems.

Doesn't this complaint (and your whole message) go pretty much across the board, though?

Having a slew of jumps in any one area isn't going to qualify you as an expert in any other area.

5000 freefly jumps isn't going to mean squat when it comes to BASE jumping, or RW...

there are many different aspects of skydiving...'perfecting' one area doesn't mean anything in other areas...

(or are you just noticing that more tandem masters tend to do this than other people?)

btw...nice to meet you in Eloy. (for any of you ladies out there that haven't met Wrong Way, LOOK OUT!! those eyes...holy cow, what sky blue gorgeous eyes!! But..I'm a married woman.. )

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[Ron 7]

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One of everyone's biggest pet peeves in this sport are Skygods

You are acting like one here.

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But what REALLY pisses me off is when some tandem master comes up to me and tries to act big shit because he/she has 4000 jumps, when 3500 of which are tandems

Thats still more than you, and me for that matter...And hell most of the folks out there.

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Too many times have I gone to different dz's and have tandem people talk big shit about how many jumps they have. I'm sorry, but 3000 tandem skydives does not make you a good freeflyer, nor does it make you a 4-way god, so unless I want advice on how to do a tandem, what right do you have to brag?

They have the right to brag since they have done a very hard type of skydive that exposes them to a greater risk than a FF or RW jump...Many more time than you have done the easier jumps.

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I find that many experienced jumpers get the rating just so they can acquire this many jumps relatively quickly, then be able to say "I have 3000 jumps, you have to listen to me.". I'm sure everyone has seen it at some point. I've seen it from several places I've gone

Maybe you get that attitude since yours sucks?

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But please, if you have 5000 tandem dives, but only 200 freefly dives and 300 RW dives (most a few years ago), please do not try to tell me or any other licensed jumper how to skydive.

Maybe you should keep your ears open and your mouth shut? I know several guys with many jumps I listen to in a hartbeat....Tony Hataway is one...10,000 jumps, but most are video...I listen when he says anything, not just video stuff. And like it or not a guy with 4,000 tandem jumps has done something 4,000 times....And that is more than most people will ever do.

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To new tandem masters: Remember what you're in the sport for. Remember that number of jumps does not equal knowledge of the sport in every aspect. Be responsible and modest when it comes to giving advice or speaking of your own skills. You are not a skygod, no matter how many jumps you get doing tandems.

Thanks for listening to my rant, and please remember, I'm not slamming the experienced TM's here. They all do an excellent job, and my hat goes off to them. But I felt this issue needed to be addressed, and I would appreciate your listening with an open mind

And it could be said that you should not bitch since it just makes you look foolish.

You are acting like the skygod here.

You preach "love in the sport", but you are slamming people. Bad form...

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tombuch 0]

Interesting point worth thinking about.

Let's also remember that many of those tandem instructors have been in the sport for 10-20 years and have tons of experience that is relevant. Also remember that at least some of those tandem instructors also teach or coach AFF and have billions of hours of experience working with flat flyers. Likewise, many have current freefly experience. Actually, many successful tandem instructors are also making "fun" jumps in their spare time.

Your point is a good one, but please don't count an instructor out simply because all you see him/her do is tandems.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Coach Course Director
Safety and Training Advisor
Commercial Pilot (IAMSEL,G)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy
Completely Ignorant Of Freefly Technique

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[mr2mk1g 10]

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They have the right to brag

No one has the right to brag.

[elfanie 0]

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They have the right to brag

No one has the right to brag.

Everyone has a right to brag. It's just whether you're bragging beyond your experience.

I brag about the fact that I jump...I'm proud of it. I don't brag that I'm the best jumper out there..I'm brand new to the sport and I know I suck.

but I think everyone has a right to brag.

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[Ron 7]

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No one has the right to brag

Where do you get that crock of shit?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mr2mk1g 10]

Perhaps then everyone has the right to look like an arse for their bragging. Bragging is not cool, regardless of why you feel you should be able to.

[AndyMan 7]

People who know their shit and want to communicate it to others are not skygods.

People who THINK they know they're shit, and harp about those that actually do know their shit, are skygods.

I have never met an instructor who'd I call a skygod. For the most part, they know their shit.

I will never degrade an instructor, I will never say someone "only" does tandems. What they do is far more dificult than anything *I* do, and without a doubt they have far more skill then I.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[ccowden 0]

Well, I have seen and heard skydivers with 100 jumps do what you are discribing, so I don't think what you do or how many jumps you have really matters when it comes to acting like a skygod or bragging. I guess people have as much of a right to do that as you do to complain about it.

It is just human nature and the best we can do is try not to do it ourselves. Never stop learning or feel insulted if someone tries to give you advice. If it is nothing you can use, just take what you can from it and say thanks. Teach by example.

[AggieDave 6]

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I will never say someone "only" does tandems

You don't know what those instructors are doing when you're not there. If someone only came to Aggieland on a busy Saturday, they might assume that I only do tandem jumps. If they came on any other day as well, they'd see a lot of other jumping going on.

WrongWay:
Ok, so you're picking on TMs, what about the AFF guys or the SL/IAD guys? You know I'm a newbie TM, I only have a bit over 200 tandem skydives, but lets look at my TM course director, since he's also the S&TA at Aggieland, especailly since he fits in the "mold" of the first post.

He has 3,000jumps. He has almost 1,000 tandems, BUT he also has his AFF, his SL/IAD (he's also a rigger). I guess that means he can't fly, huh and he doesn't know shit. That's pretty funny, since he's also a SDU coach (another rating, so he must suck), not only that, but he will make you look bad while doing RW. How? He'll be parked in his slot waiting for you to finish your turn to complete the next point. If you're diving, you'll see the blur of his jumpsuit then you'll see him parked perfectly in his quadrant going in for his dock. He can FF, not as good as he can RW, but its getting there. We even do some CReW together. Nevermind that he's the hottest canopy pilot on the DZ, swooping the piss out of his Velocity 103.

Ok WrongWay, you're right, I'm sorry, I guess my example showed if a TM has over 1000 tandems and only has 3000 jumps, he must not know a damn thing about this sport and probably has no clue how to do RW, FF, swoop or do CReW.


Well, I guess I'm odd, since I'm always asking that guy questions, getting his opinions on things in the sport, trying to get as much of his knowledge out of him and learn from it as I can. I guess that's an odd concept, you know, trying to learn from people with more experience then you.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[crutch 0]

You tell him Ron!

There are people in every sport or discipline of this one that think they are "gods". Hell, there are a couple of people who may think that way about me (they haven't figured out the truth yet). The problem with this thread is not the "gods", but you wrongway! You, I take it had a run in with some TM's at some drop zone, so everyone with a lot of tandem jumps is a "god" trying to impede some knowledge on you????

Dude get a life and check that attitude at the door. Oh, just a quick note, that attitude is why you are having trouble, not the "gods".

blue skies,

art

[mjosparky 3]

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Maybe you should keep your ears open and your mouth shut? I know several guys with many jumps I listen to in a hartbeat....Tony Hataway is one...10,000 jumps, but most are video...I listen when he says anything, not just video stuff. And like it or not a guy with 4,000 tandem jumps has done something 4,000 times....And that is more than most people will ever do.

When you think about it, camerapeople are some of the best flyers we have in the sport today.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[WrongWay 0]

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One of everyone's biggest pet peeves in this sport are Skygods

You are acting like one here.

Whoa dude, I'll be the first to say I am NO skygod. Shit, I don't even consider myself a "good" skydiver.

I'm not slamming anyone, I said like like 10 times within the post. I have all the respect in the world for tandem masters because their job is an amazingly tough one, one that I myself do not do, and frankly, I don't feel I have the talent and skill to be responsible for another persons life. They do this every day, and for that, my hat goes off to them. And yes, I realize after elfanie's post that I'm being one sided here, which I didn't realize before. It's true that if someone has 4000 freefly dives, that doesnt make them good at rw, base, etc. and it works like that in every discipline. Me for instance, when someone asks me for any advice, I'll give it, but ONLY in freefly cuz it's all I know. I won't tell anyone how to do RW or BASE or Birdman, cuz frankly I don't know shit about any of these disciplines. I'm sorry for pointing fingers specifically at TM's, I was only saying this because I have seen it done frequently by TM's.

Yes, I was being unfair, and I apologize for this, but I am NO skygod, I am in NO way trying to convey that I'm better than anyone here, cuz yes, anybody with 1000 jumps has more jumps than me, I'm not someone to go to about RW, BASE, Birdman, Tandems, go to someone else. Personally, I don't see where you got me as a skygod, and I'm sorry you did, but I am NOT. Fuck, I get coaching everywhere I go, cuz I KNOW I always need help. I'M NO SKYGOD, and I apologize for any conveyance (is that a word?) of this image in my post.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[WrongWay 0]

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Your point is a good one, but please don't count an instructor out simply because all you see him/her do is tandems.

I'd never count anyone out, but I would definitely ask them how many dives they have in the discipline in question.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[AggieDave 6]

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I don't see where you got me as a skygod, and I'm sorry you did, but I am NOT

It's the attitude of the first post, you know, the one where you basically slammed Intstructors, especially TMs. I think that upset some folks.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

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I would definitely ask them how many dives they have in the discipline in question.

Who cares how many jumps they have? I've got a friend that really into RW, he only has a bit over 300 jumps, but he flies like he has well over 1000 RW jumps. How/why? Well, he went through SDU and 2 Airspeed tunnel camps.

I say drop the attitude and don't judge people till you go jump with them.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[WrongWay 0]

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You tell him Ron!

There are people in every sport or discipline of this one that think they are "gods". Hell, there are a couple of people who may think that way about me (they haven't figured out the truth yet). The problem with this thread is not the "gods", but you wrongway! You, I take it had a run in with some TM's at some drop zone, so everyone with a lot of tandem jumps is a "god" trying to impede some knowledge on you????

Dude get a life and check that attitude at the door. Oh, just a quick note, that attitude is why you are having trouble, not the "gods".

Dude you have TOTALLY gotten the wrong idea about me. See my post to Ron. I don't have an attitude, I love everyone I've met here.

I just have a bit of a problem with "know it alls". And FYI, I am NOT one, I don't know hardly anything about rw, tandems, wingsuits, base. I know freefly, but not nearly as much as I should, or I'd like to.

I'm just trying to express that some people (sometimes including myself) need to take a step back and realize what exactly they're doing in the sport, and not what they'd LIKE to be doing.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[Ron 7]

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I don't see where you got me as a skygod, and I'm sorry you did

Skygod is not about skill its about attitude...The Knights, Airspeed, Majik Flyboys...ect are not Skygods....They are very skilled jumpers.

A Skygod is like a 100 jump wonder with more jumps. When you act like you know it all...You are either a 100 jump wonder, or a Skygod.

The slamming of TM's and saying how they are not good enough to offer advice if they have 4000 jumps but 3500 Tandems...That is attitude.

One common thread you will see from me is I don't slam people...I slam attitudes.

You may well be a great guy, but your post made it seem otherwise...And trust me I know...Hell I was just Im'd by someone that someone in DeLand was bitching about me....

The best piece of skydiving advice you could ever get:

Learn from everyone, keep your ears open and your mouth shut.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[WrongWay 0]

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People who know their shit and want to communicate it to others are not skygods.

People who THINK they know they're shit, and harp about those that actually do know their shit, are skygods.

I have never met an instructor who'd I call a skygod. For the most part, they know their shit.

I will never degrade an instructor, I will never say someone "only" does tandems. What they do is far more dificult then anything *I* do, and without a doubt they have far more skill then I.

_Am

I'm not trying to degrade anyone, simply give a point. Man, I have LOTS of friends who are TM's, and they DO know their shit. Hell, lemme tell ya a story.

When I started jumping, I got the name WrongWay cuz of off dz landings. My canopy control sucked royal ASS. Who helped me, you ask? A TM. He gave me instruction on canopy control, out of the goodness of his own heart, which helped me TREMENDOUSLY. I am forever in his debt for that, and it said a lot by his helping me for nothing. So yes, TM's do know their shit, and I'm not saying they don't. I'm just saying that while this one was an awesome guy, who did know his shit, and had the heart to help me, if he would have tried to teach me something like BASE, I would have died for sure.

He knew (and still does know) more about the sport than I ever will.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[WrongWay 0]

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One common thread you will see from me is I don't slam people...I slam attitudes.

Dude that's the best quote I've heard in a long time, and THAT'S the point I'm trying to get at here. I don't want to slam TM's, because like I said, they do an excellent job, one that is far more than I think I myself could handle. I'm just getting on the attitude I have seen from some.

I apologize if any TM's out there were offended, I meant no harm or disgrace to ANY of you, and I am TRULY SORRY for not wording it in the way I should have to convey my point correctly.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[wushidaoist 0]

We see the same thing in martial arts, but status is measured in years vs. number of jumps.

The thing is, it doesn't take 25 years to become an expert martial art ist and it doesn't take 3000 jumps to become an expert skydiver.

However, if expertise in a particular field of endeavor is all that a person has, I don't want to take that away from them. Let them be gods.

[iowa 0]

I would like to know who left you with that impression.

I see opinionated assholes like that from every disipline. Fortunately they are rare.

Listening to them is just like reading these forums. Turn your filter on or just ignore them.

Sometimes they're good for a laugh though. Like your post.

Keith

''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway

[WrongWay 0]

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I don't see where you got me as a skygod, and I'm sorry you did, but I am NOT

It's the attitude of the first post, you know, the one where you basically slammed Intstructors, especially TMs. I think that upset some folks.

I'm sorry that I worded things wrong and gave the impression that I slammed all instructors, which was in NO WAY the case. Shit, I just have the inability to word things correctly. My bad.

But as I said, and as Ron put it ever so accurately, it's not the people I was slamming, but the attitude. I know that instructors know a lot about the sport, much more than I do, for sure. Just some people show the attitude that because they know so much about one area, they know all about EVERY area. That's all I was trying to say, not trying to slam anyone, and I VERY SINCERELY APOLOGIZE to any of you who took offense to this. I meant in NO WAY that I am better than anyone, or that these people do not have the skills to do their job. That isn't even close to what I meant. Please accept my apology, and take my post with a grain of salt, as I did not word it the way I should have, and I beg that my ignorance be pardoned.

EDITED TO ADD: And AggieDave, the guy you mentioned, he's not just a TM, just like you're not. I have nothing but respect for you personally, and for the guy you speak of, who also sounds like one hell of a skydiver. I simply worded things wrong, and I am truly sorry for my lack of wording skills that caused such hostility and such a bad vibe throughout this thread. It was not my intent. I apologize.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[WrongWay 0]

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Sometimes they're good for a laugh though. Like your post.

True true.

I'm not at liberty to mention names, because that would be a personal attack. Not that I care that the greenies would have a fit, but as badly as I accidentally and unneccessarily (spelling?) made it seem that way, that is NOT my intent. If I have a problem with someone specifically, I'll take it up with them. It's human decency. I'm sorry I showed my lack thereof earlier in the thread.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.