USPA Member ??? READ THIS !!!

[airtwardo 6]

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Sorry, but these days lunch with your lawyer will cost you $250, not including the meal.

***

LMFAO....

How true!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Skycoog 0]

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The uspa is losing badly as this cost rises. It can not afford that insurance anymore, plain and simple. Lose the insurance, jumps stop cold, shut down game over.

The smaller DZ clubs at public airports will have a tough time without USPA third party coverage, and they will probably fade away. However, there are DZO(s) who operate from private facilities, and they have too much invested to simply fade away. They will buy their own insurance, and the price of the jump ticket will increase. Much like Walmart driving the "mom-n-pop" stores to extinction, the larger DZO(s) will absorb the jumpers from the smaller displaced facilities.

I haven't gotten a chance to read Parachutist yet, so I haven't seen the article regarding the insurance situation yet, but being on the Membership Services committee for USPA, I am involved in it.

This is an ongoing issue that's coming to a head quickly. It's impossible to touch on every point of the issue in a post on a newsgroup.

Three basic things in a nut shell, since there's been some good points raised on this topic that as a skydiver/board member I'll bring to the forefront.

1. USPA's individual 3rd party liability is essential to our sport. It is our sports first line of defense. Advocates of doing away with it (that it is unnecessary because of personal policies) aren't looking at the liability situation facing the sport at large. Small DZ's rely on this policy to stay in business in regards to answering claims, and meeting requirements to stay on public airports. Sure, you could do away with it, and see the number of available DZ's fall, and see the jump prices at the larger DZ's go up substantially to cover insurance costs, which will have a serious effect on your bank account if you make more than 10 jumps a year.
Keeping individual liability (within the current limitations of the policy) is workable, whether it's finding more competitive policies, restructuring the policy, or working towards self insurance, there is a solution that won't break the bank.

2. What you are getting now in your membership dues is a bargain, even with the dues increase. AOPA's membership is $39 (also a bargain), it provides access to discounted individual aircraft policies. If USPA did'nt provide insurance at all, our membership dues would be right around $36 to $40. In essense, you're getting insurance that protects you and your (hopefully beloved) DZ for around $15 a year.
This may sound..well it is...sarcastic, but it doesn't take a mental giant to realize that if you don't pay insurance through membership to USPA you'll be making it up in jump costs carried through your DZ, which will be more than $15 a year if you do any sort of jumping.
DZ's/skydiving business do everything they can to minimize liability by whatever means, the "Uninsured" Relative Workshop comes to mind, or some sort of LLC, but the 3rd Party liability coverage has deflected some of these claims negating the need for litigation, which is definitely worth $15 a year.
What was my point?? Oh Yeah, it's a bargain.

3. Cost increases. There's a lot of reasons for the insurance premiums going through the roof. Most business's/individuals are facing the same sort of insurance problems and having to make hard decisions. USPA has an additional problem in that these policies are unique.
Changes in BSR's/requirements/safety issues alone will probably not substantially effect premiums. There are a number of reasons insurance has skyrocketed. Too many to mention here. They range from things that have nothing to do with skydiving (driven from poor decision making by the insurance industry during the recent market downturn), to the structure of the policy in regard to liability concerning demo jumps.
For the most part, the problems are industry/risk/profit related.

In closing, the reason I posted is because as USPA members/skydivers you should be as informed as you possibly can on this issue, because YOU have a stake in it. This is not simply some USPA hack item. It can/will effect your ability to jump. It is our number one priority.

I would urge everyone to 1. Be informed of possible solutions/decisions that are upcoming 2. Comment/Support/Don't support these solutions through your regional director.

The schedule's pretty full so I won't have time to debate this here. If you have questions/comments feel free to email me, I'll get to them as I have time. Please be patient in awaiting an answer.

Thanks,

Don Ellisor
Gulf Region Director

[gemini 0]

Some years ago I was VP Finance for an engineering company that was dealing with hazardous waste. Our insurance went up 12-25% every year because of claims in the industry. After the third or fourth year of increases, I began exploring the alternatives.

What I came up with was a partial "self-insured" plan that worked as follows:

Individual deductibles were $250 with 80% of next $4000 in claims. This meant that each employee could have a maximum of $1050 out-of-pocket with everything else being covered up to the individual maximum.

In addition and where all the savings came from was that the plan had a maximum deductible of $44,000 per year with a limit of $10,000 per employee.

The insurance company calculated the maximum and we contirubuted to a funded account to back the deductible.

The insurance company then wrote the policy basically with a $44,000 deductible using a Llyod's company to insure major losses.

Administration of claims and the fund was handled by the insurance company.

Although this was health insurance and each state's laws vary on how flexible a plan can be, I thought it might give someone an idea.

Blues,

Blue skies,

Jim

[steve1 5]

It's been standard practice, at our DZ, to sometimes jump into someone's back yard on the last load of the day. This past weekend we had a couple little demos of this sort planned. But we were told that now there will be no jumping off our DZ, unless papers are filed 30 days in advance. According to the FAA in Helena. Does this sound right to you? Is this a federal thing or just something new here in Montana. One guy in our group is really PO'd over this decision........The good ole days may be over.......Steve1

[airtwardo 6]

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I would urge everyone to 1. Be informed of possible solutions/decisions that are upcoming 2. Comment/Support/Don't support these solutions through your regional director.

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Thanks Don for the input.

I understand that with your schedule that it would be an impossibility to individually address all the questions and comments concerned Parachute Association
members may put fourth in this type of venue...

That being said, perhaps you could give us a
general update from time to time as to the
direction this most important issue is going.

...and what we as concerned members of USPA
might do to assist.

Thanks again.

-Jim Twardowski



Note:
Don Ellisor is my Regional Director and has been
most helpful to me in addressing my concerns
regarding this issue.

I strongly urge everyone with questions, comments, complaints and concerns to address them
to YOUR Regional Director without delay.

The organization needs your input,
and you need to get involved in the process.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davelepka 4]

Quite the interesting and lengthy thread.

I've seen some talk of increases in dues to cover the additional cost of the general insurance. Instead, my vote would be to maintain the current dues, and kill off Parachutist all together. How much does that mag cost the USPA each year? How about the fact that while I was married, I got a copy each month, and so did my wife. Same address, same last name, still got two each month. What about the interenet? I know it's new technology and all, but hosting an interent mag has to represent a huge cost reduction over the printed word and snail mail.

Also, I'm not usre what the details are for the USPA Museam, but if it costs one cent, fuck it. Lets keep everyone jumping and covered form losses first, and try to make a buck from ticket sales and a crappy gift shop later.

One last thing. I know that the Demo insurance is tied to the general liability policy, and there is a discounted rate because of that, but considering the disproportionate dollar figure with demo claims, if we can save even 10% of the premieum by dropping the demo insurance, than drop it. 10% would represent a savings of $50,000 annually, and when were facing the loss of the enitre policy, who cares if were not getting the same value for our dollar, the membership as a whole needs the general coverage.

Who the hell is running the USPA anyway? It would seem that any self resepcting businessman would have seen these troubles brewing long ago, and would have been making moves to avoid the damage, as opposed to the current situation of trying to stop the bleeding. Maybe before buying a new building, erecting a museam, and funneling money into that rediculous magazine, we could have been getting some sound business decisions on how our money was being spent (or better yet not spent).

Oh well...

[PhreeZone 15]

Technically you were doing illegal demos with out filing a NOTAM, the FAA has every right to stop you from doing this.

Your member insurance probally will not cover you if you screw up and damage things off the DZ on an illegal demo.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Harksaw 0]

Totally wild idea, and I have no idea if its economically feasible, but......

How about the USPA insuring itself? Take all that dues money and put it in an account. Take out of it for claims, maybe contract someone for investigating the claims. For the first couple years the insurance might be pretty crappy with huge deductibles but after a couple years of saving, USPA could save up enough to have substantial coverage. And to anyone who says it can't work, I can virtually guarantee you that whoever USPA was using for insurance was making a profit. What do they have that we don't? Lawyers I guess......

__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.

[airtwardo 6]

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The good ole days may be over.......Steve1

***

Steve my friend,
there is no "may be" about it...

'The times... they are a changin!'
(apologies to Bob Dylan)
I had a similar discussion with an old buddy
along those very lines.

Classifications of demos and such.


My question to you;

Were NOTAM's being filed in accordance with FAA requirements regarding parachute activities
over the areas you were jumping into?

Were the landing areas 'legal' as far as
the qualifications of the participating jumpers?

Was thought / discussion given to the possibility
of 3rd party injury or damage caused by these
"demos", and if so what was the consensus
if an incident occurred?

Who's liable in the event something goes wrong?

These, and other pertinent questions must be addressed,
and vigilant thought given prior to any jumps of this type.

Hence the situation we currently face with insurance.

We call ourselves "The Sport of the Space Age"

But we're kicking and screaming as we are being
forcibly 'dragged' into the 21st century.

The "Old Days" are indeed over....

We all have to be aware of, understand and adapt
to the ever changing outside forces that
affect our sport.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[steve1 5]

Airtwardo,
Those are all good questions. I guess things may have been too loose up here in Montana. It's mostly open country where these back yard demos are held. In the past if you wanted to do one, little thought was given to formalities and the DZ owners went along with it. No papers (that I know of) were filed, you just went and did it. There's only three DZ's here in our state and all three allow this kind of demo. It's our safety and training officer and the DZ owner's decision on who is allowed on the load. For demos into tighter areas papers are filed thirty days in advance and either a D-license or pro-qualifications are needed to make the jump. I don't do enough demos to know much more than this. I've got a D-license but not a pro-rating. I'm not really involved in the paper work end of it other than to sign my name on the papers that allow a D-licensed jumper. A pro-rating is required to go into the football stadium in Missoula. All I really know is that if I'm invited on doing a demo, and it looks safe enough, and if the people in charge say it's okay, I get on the load. I've never taken a hard look at the legal end of things. I guess I need to start, and I don't want to be a contributing factor in causing USPA'S insurance to go up.

I've been out of the sport a long time, and have only been back a few years. Thirty years ago I didn't own enough to really worry about legal ramifications and people probably weren't as sue happy back then. I remember doing demos with a para-commander with only a 100 jumps in places that require a pro-rating now. Things are indeed changing and I still have plenty to learn...........Steve1

[airtwardo 6]

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I remember doing demos with a para-commander with only a 100 jumps in places that require a pro-rating now. Things are indeed changing

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Tell me about it!

I look back at some of the demos I did 'yesteryear'
and not only question my judgment...
but whether I was good, or just lucky
in pulling them off!

Time and trials bring experience ...
and if I've learned nothing else doing
demos over the years,
it's that there is no disgrace
in taking steps to turn the odds of success in your favor,
or just backing down altogether.

For example;
A demo into I did into downtown Pittsburgh a couple years ago;

The actual performance desired by the promoter was nothing
reflected in the contract we'd agreed upon.
Most likely due to ineffectual communication on my part.

What they wanted us to do was very possible,
and well within my skills....
But had the receipt for disaster all over it.

Instead of 'pushing the envelope'
I 'sold' them on safety aspects of altering the presentation
to both achieve their intended effect and
greatly pull the odds of success in my favor.

...As we concluded or business there;

I was interested to learn that at similar
prior events, jumpers had been seriously injured
by performing as requested by the promoter.

Not just once, but in several instances...

The event coordinator being a non-jumper, had no
frame of reference in which to gauge the difficulty
and possible outcome of a performance that I
would more characterize as a 'stunt'.

Could I have done what he wanted?
Yes,

But not without additional preparation and planning...
and definitely not for the money outlined in the original contract.

Experience and not ego made for a successful weekend.

Now more than ever, recognizing that demos and skydiving
are two very different animals is paramount.

If the 'odds' for success, are not overwhelmingly in your favor...

You change them...or walk!

...And yes, I do miss ,

The Good Old Days!!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Harksaw 0]

Does USPA insurance pay off if the incident breaks BSR's? If it does, would not paying for claims violating BSR's be a feasible part of a solution?



Sorry if my posts sound unintelligent or desparate, this issue just really gets me paranoid and I'm just throwing out ideas.

__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.

[jumpgod 0]

well that sucks....i liked having the insurance.

ass hole companies.

"dude, where's my main?"

[tombuch 0]

Steve:

Check the FAR's in the back of your SIM. I'm away for a month and don't have mine handy, but I'm thinking that a jump into uncontrolled non-congested airspace simply requires NOTIFICATION, rather than Authorization. There is a big difference. Notification is simply a 1 hour notice to ATC filed as a NOTAM through Flight Service.

"Congested Area" should be defined in AC-105, and I doubt a backyard in a wide open area fits the FAA description.

Read the regs, discuss the issue with your S&TA and DZO, then discuss it with the FAA. They may be just over reacting.

Tom Buchanan
S&TA, The Ranch
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy[i/]

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[airtwardo 6]

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Does USPA insurance pay off if the incident breaks BSR's? If it does, would not paying for claims violating BSR's be a feasible part of a solution?



Sorry if my posts sound unintelligent or desparate, this issue just really gets me paranoid and I'm just throwing out ideas.

***
Unfortunately...

From what I understand, once a claim is filed
the Insurance Company takes over and as a point of history...

Always pays the claim.

The USPA has no say in any investigation
as to legality of the jump.

I agree, if close review of the circumstances
surrounding the incident were standard practice...

far fewer claims being paid would probably result.

But the organization is handcuffed in any such action.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[MikeMcLean 0]

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If you rent and don't have the insurance, get it...it's like 10 bucks a month for $30,000 property/$100,000 liability through State Farm.

And an added benefit is that when/if you do purchase a home and therefore home-owners insurance, the fact that you have been maintaining (even a small, cheap) renter's insurance policy will improve your homeowners insurability score and lower your homeowners rate.

It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention

[rmsmith 1]

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And an added benefit is...

Be careful when you exercise your homeowner policy as you could easily "blacklist" your home causing a loss of resale value. Read on:

When a call can hurt your insurance score!

By Kenneth R. Harney

WASHINGTON -Did you know that an innocent phone call to your insurance agent about the deductible on your homeowner's policy could trigger a loss report on your home to a national database, even if you never file a claim and pay for the repairs yourself? Sound bizarre?

Welcome to the emerging Alice-in-Wonderland world of homeowners insurance, where you have a personal risk score and your house has its own electronic dossier accessible by insurance companies nationwide. Depending on what's in that dossier, your house may already be stigmatized as high risk -- rendering it more difficult to sell since insurance may be unavailable or extremely expensive. Worse yet, your ``homeowners insurance score'' could be tainted by the scoring software's heavy reliance on your personal credit file -- information that recent national studies have documented to be too frequently riddled with errors and omissions.

The information is available to the insurance industry in a privately run database called the Comprehensive Loss Underwriting Exchange, or CLUE. Insurers who write more than 90 percent of the United States' homeowners policies contribute information to it, covering more than 40 million claims records on homes.

Each house has its own file that lists every claim or piece of property damage information supplied by local agents over the past five years. Even if the file indicates that nothing was paid to the homeowner -- where the agent learned of damage below the deductible threshold through an innocent inquiry by the homeowner -- the file may contain a loss notation on the property record.

To the insurance industry, CLUE is an invaluable source of risk-prediction information. In the words of Joe Annotti, vice president for public affairs of the National Association of Independent Insurers, CLUE ``is just an automated loss history that speeds up the process of underwriting and pricing insurance.'' It is nothing more sinister than the 200-million-plus credit files maintained by the private national credit repositories -- Equifax, Experian and TransUnion.

But CLUE reports and homeowner scores can also be unseen weights on houses and their owners. Houses with just a couple of small claims listed on a report can suddenly be more difficult to sell. A homeowner who filed a damage claim on her last property in one state may find her score too low to qualify for insurance on a new house she wants to buy in another state.

Both she and her former house may carry insurance stigmas -- the new scarlet letters of American real estate -- for years.To see a description of the CLUE system and obtain your home's current CLUE report, go to www.choicetrust.com. The cost is $12.95. You can obtain your homeowners insurance score for the same price.The CLUE system -- and rapidly rising homeowners insurance rates nationwide -- have prompted the formation of a task force by the National Association of Realtors. The group is expected to make recommendations for reforms to the 890,000-strong association next month at a meeting in Washington.

One of the task force's members, Nick D'Ambrosia of LaPlata, Md., cites what he calls a typical example of how the CLUE database can trigger unexpected problems for homeowners. A report on a house in Upper Marlboro, Md., included two relatively minor insurance claims -- one for a ruptured water heater that spilled onto the basement floor. But, says D'Ambrosia, ``that was enough to stigmatize the property'' and render it difficult to insure by its unsuspecting purchaser. Six major insurers turned down the buyer's applications for insurance.

Another member of the Realtors task force, Nick French of Santa Fe, N.M., cites the example of a Florida homeowner who mistakenly phoned his insurance agent to ask about coverage on a fallen tree in the yard.

``The tree didn't hit the house,'' French said. ``There was no claim filed.''

But it was listed as a zero-payout damage report on the home's CLUE file.

The Consumer Federation of America's top insurance expert, Bob Hunter, says ``for years we've told people to call your insurance agent and ask questions about your policy. But if questions are going to be used against you, that's ridiculous.''

How should you handle the tricky new realities of homeowners insurance? For starters, order a copy of your home's CLUE report so you know what it contains. If you are buying a home, ask the seller for a copy of the CLUE report as a contract contingency item. And perhaps most important: Be aware that even the most casual inquiry to your agent about property damage could end up as a black mark in your home's electronic dossier.


Kenneth R. Harney is a nationally syndicated real estate columnist based in Washington, D.C. You can e-mail him at: [email protected].

[skycop 0]

Off the home-owners insurance rant for a while.....
I just lost a demo due to the insurance increase.

It will be very hard for our team to do anymore demo's because of this whole situation. We do demo's for non-profit/charitable groups pretty much exclusively and we don't make ANY money (except our expenses). Which means we can't promote our sport to people or groups, i.e. childrens charities, make-a-wish, aviation foundations/non-profit groups.
It's a shame it's had to come to this, I didn't mind a portion of my USPA dues going to help the insurance costs. In the big picture it only helps further our sport.
IMHO
Blue Skies

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[airtwardo 6]

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It's a shame it's had to come to this, I didn't mind a portion of my USPA dues going to help the insurance costs. In the big picture it only helps further our sport.

***
Jim I couldn't agree with you more!

We lost I think, three shows in these last two months.

Had a meeting with the guys as to how to 'market'
anything at the ICAS convention in December...

"Hey...anybody got that number for that truck drivin' school..
'TruckMaster I think it was....
I might need that..."
-Goose

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Ron 7]

Maybe the USPA should ditch the museum that no one seems to want and work on getting insurance?

Why have a museum for the USPA when the USPA will disapear if the insurance is no longer offered?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pilotdave 0]

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Why have a museum for the USPA when the USPA will disapear if the insurance is no longer offered?

This is why I'm just not so nervous about losing the insurance. It can't happen because USPA cant exist without it, just like you said. Losing the demo insurance sucks, but it just doesn't directly affect the majority of USPA members. But the insurance for the rest of us can't just be dropped. It sure sounds like it's going to change, but I don't think the USPA is ready to drop it completely and therefore disband. I sure hope the next Parachutist has some answers to all of this.

Dave

[mjosparky 3]

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Why have a museum for the USPA when the USPA will disapear if the insurance is no longer offered?

This is why I'm just not so nervous about losing the insurance. It can't happen because USPA cant exist without it, just like you said. Losing the demo insurance sucks, but it just doesn't directly affect the majority of USPA members. But the insurance for the rest of us can't just be dropped. It sure sounds like it's going to change, but I don't think the USPA is ready to drop it completely and therefore disband. I sure hope the next Parachutist has some answers to all of this.

Dave

You just keep thinging that way. They also said Nixon would never resign.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[pilotdave 0]

Yep, and I also said the flight restrictions around DC after 9/11 would go away in a few months. I am wrong a lot. But I'm still not gonna worry about this.
Dave

[Jimbo 0]

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Maybe the USPA should ditch the museum that no one seems to want and work on getting insurance?

Why have a museum for the USPA when the USPA will disapear if the insurance is no longer offered?

Since the USPA will no longer exist, they need a museum to keep their memory alive. Come on Ron, I thought you knew this stuff!

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[jsaxton 0]

MMph, Can anyone tell me how no-faullt insurance works?