How much emphasis on canopy control?

[Jarcie 0]

I just read "Becoming a Safer Canopy Pilot" and "Your Canopy Risk Quotient" in the March Parachutist, and I'm wondering...

How much emphasis is usually placed on canopy control (as opposed to exit and freefall skills) for new jumpers?

Do most/all dropzones offer canopy coaching or canopy control courses, even if it's only occasionally?

Is there a difference in the emphasis placed on canopy control for the AFF vs. static line progressions? Or other progressions?

And if you're a student, how much were you explicitly taught, and how much did you figure out intuitively?

When you buy a new parachute, do you usually take a canopy control course or do some coached hop 'n' pops with it?

[SLOfreefall 0]

I've been to seven dropzones (although none of them were "the big ones"), and I haven't heard of any canopy control courses being offered. I would jump at the chance to further my knowledge of canopy control.
My AFF course provided the minimal skills needed. I've learned "drills" to practice from reading these forums. Bill Von's list has provided the basics that should be learned.
Just this last weekend I mentioned to one of my former instructors that I wished I would have had more information about canopy control. She agreed, that more information should be given.

I hope this year I'll get a chance to take a class.

[Jimbo 0]

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How much emphasis on canopy control?

Not nearly enough. That's for sure. The good news is that canopy control courses are becoming more and more popular. As experienced canopy pilots see more and more people flocking to Scott Miller, Team Extreme, Flight 1, etc... they'll realize that there's money to be made and get in the game. Give it 5 years, canopy control courses will be everywhere and it'll be "cool" to have taken at least one.

Before anyone jumps on me ... It's a shame that it will take the lure of $$$ to bring the qualified coaches out of the woodwork, but I do believe that that will be the great motivator for people to get in the game.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[webracer 0]

At SkydiveChicago, we go very indepth with regards to canopy basics. We cover, and have the student practice all types of inputs (8), and challenge the student with goals. I feel students coming out of the AFP program have similar canopy skills as those with 50 or more jumps.
SDC also offers canopy control courses taught by the likes of Scott Miller. I think two courses are planned for this season. I think there is also a crew course planned, along with a crew competition.
As with most student programs, it is up to the student to concentrate on development of skills. We are attempting to provide the base skillset from which to fly safely and provide a foundation to learn from.
If students are not progressing with proper canopy control, they can be given extra hop-n-pops or haho jumps to do. They can also be held back for not developing the minimum skills.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[FrogNog 1]

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It's a shame that it will take the lure of $$$ to bring the qualified coaches out of the woodwork,

There's nothing inherently wrong with this. In free-market economies, money (well, technically price, but same difference) is a signal that prospective buyers and prospective sellers use to get together and conduct trade for the benefit of one or both parties.

It is important to people who want to learn from qualified coaches that these coaches do not waste their time with people who aren't going to appreciate the lessons. I know I pay more attention when I am personally invested, and it's nice to have classmates who are roughly the same.

(To shake myself of the money-is-all cloak, I note that in some cases I am personally invested because the instructor is someone durn cool from my dropzone, like Ben.)

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Romolus 0]

Hey everyone!

In Denmark I think most dropzones focus more on exit and freefall skills. But we are starting to see Canopy Control courses as well.

About the difference between AFF and Static-line, I think that static-line students gets a better understanding of canopy control in the beginning at least, because of the many hop-a-pops. I talked to an instructor about it once and he agreed that AFF students often use the radio longer and uses longer time to handle basic canopy control. I guess that's because the use a lot of energy on the exit and freefall part right form the beginning. But in the end i think static line and AFF students end up at the same level.

[piisfish 135]

for what I have seen, I think there is not enough done. Skydivers are taught how to freefall, and a minimum so that they can land alive and freefall again.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

over one third of my seven-hour first jump course is spend covering canopy control/landing.

[StearmanR985 0]

This is a good topic.

My DZ does not offer any canopy specific training that I am aware of. Other than the basic AFF stuff of course.

As a newbie though, I can and have gone up to my DZO and asked for advice. Providing the DZ is not too busy he will even come out and watch me and make sure I am doing it right. I also go to my instructor for specific canopy advice as well.

At my DZ, you are pretty much left on your own after you graduate but if you ask for help, you will receive it. There are several people here that are quite knowledgable and willing to advise. You just have to kind of seek for the help, but it is always there.

Jeff

[Kid_Icarus 0]

Does anyone have a copy of Bill Von's list? Thanks.

________________________________________
"What What.....

[GeeeeeeFly 0]

At Skydive San Diego, we have Icarus Evolution. They are more than happy to discuss with anyone tips and pointers on canopy control; they also have a course for pilot canopy progression.

You can get the sam course from Team extreme at Perris too.

"The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over"

[Michele 1]

I don't know about other people's AFFs, but I know that I had such a rough one that while the most basic canopy stuff was taught, I either didn't learn it or had forgotten as soon as it was taught. I had huge "gear fear", and, as a consequence, had difficulty (to state it lightly) with any sort of controlled landing - after AFF. (Also, keep in mind I took AFF before it was switched over, almost 3 years ago.)

I took Team Extreme's canopy control course at jump #40 - and while I was given grief about it (you can't even land, why are you learning to swoop???), I learned soooooo very much about canopy control, and about my head under canopy, and about the way things worked, that I would recommend - and have, many times - that the first real expenditure after AFF is a canopy control class.

I sincerely hope it becomes the norm at most DZ's, and am pleased to read some of the comments where it is either emphasized or otherwise focussed on.

Question for all the instructors:
~Have you ever failed a student because of the canopy control aspect of a level?

Ciels-
Michele

(edited to add the question - I was going to post a new thread, but thought I'd just put it here.)

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[StearmanR985 0]

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I took Team Extreme's canopy control course at jump #40 - and while I was given grief about it (you can't even land, why are you learning to swoop???)

You hit the nail on the head in regards to receiving grief about learning 'extra' canopy control techniques when your still new and have a low jump numbers. I too have received some grief for wanting to learn do new things with my canopy. But I learned rather quickly to filter through the nay sayers to find those with valuable information. There are definetly people out there willing to help one learn while still maintaining safety as the number one priority (my JM Ed is one of them ).

As a fellow newbie, glad you learned some cool stuff!!

Jeff

[Jarcie 0]

Thanks, everyone, for your replies so far.

It seems that there is a lot to learn about canopy control after the FJC basic survival stuff. I would like/plan to do what Michele did and take a canopy control course.

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Does anyone have a copy of Bill Von's list? Thanks.

It's here. They also quoted part of it in the March Parachutist.

[Kat1221 0]

My DZ does mostly IAD progression, and from what I remember a large portion of the FJC was canopy control. By time I was on freefall I was off radio, and was pretty confident in my landing skills. There were always instructors around to watch landings and give pointers for my first 20 or so jumps. Now we have a canopy control course planned for April or May. The DZ seems to do a pretty good job of emphasizing canopy control.
I remember after a jump where I screwed up in freefall and was pretty mad about it, the DZO came out and watched me land. I told him what happened, and he said not to worry - that any jump you walk away from is a good jump.

[relyon 0]

That's excellent Chuck.

I'm all for paid canopy control courses and the like, but based on what I've seen I think many students are getting short-changed in canopy instruction given the total cost of AFF/IAD/SL programs. If a unlicensed student progresses to the point of being able to jumpmaster themselves, they should have been exposed to and show and understanding of all the items on Bill's list. Once they're licensed and can perform those maneuvers themselves on a student canopy, only then are they ready to take a paid course.

Bob

[Jarcie 0]

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If a unlicensed student progresses to the point of being able to jumpmaster themselves, they should have been exposed to and show and understanding of all the items on Bill's list. Once they're licensed and can perform those maneuvers themselves on a student canopy, only then are they ready to take a paid course.

But how is that normally accomplished? Is it part of some student progressions, or do most students work independently with information like Bill's list, then ask for help if/when they need it?

[relyon 0]

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But how is that normally accomplished?

I don't think it is being done, or at least I haven't seen a lot of it. In fact, I've seen and heard plenty of evidence of just the opposite. Someone crashes and burns and the ensuing discussion is full of phrases like "I never knew", "nobody told me", or "really?" I'd love to be wrong on my observations. I hope it is part of student progressions and I'm just blind to it.

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Is it part of some student progressions, or do most students work independently with information like Bill's list, then ask for help if/when they need it?

As many have pointed out, students often don't know what they're ignorant of and have no basis to ask questions from. Their mind is already overloaded just getting from the plane to the ground.

I will say I've seen classes observe experienced jumpers landing while the instructor narrates. The problem with that is the experienced folks are often jumping smaller, more agile canopies, swooping, or screwing up things themselves (perhaps because they never really learned). So all too often what one hears is "don't do what they just did" as opposed to "see that landing? That was good". Heck, plenty of jumpmasters do a mach 2 approaches with a spectacular swoop after a load of students. While there's not a thing wrong that, the only value to the student is "don't try that yourself", and they still don't know what to do.

What I'm thinking of is videos, photos, discussion, etc. that show the kind of canopy control they should be focusing on at their level. Make sure to cover all items on the list, and verify through quizzing, etc. to make sure they understand it. Maybe the first jump instructor asks someone they know to demostrate some things first hand. "See that red & white canopy? Watch their approach. Notice how they smoothly apply the brakes for a nice stand-up landing". That sort of thing.

Bob

[Jen1129 0]

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over one third of my seven-hour first jump course is spend covering canopy control/landing.

Chuck taught my first jump course (which I totally enjoyed), and yes he did cover a lot about canopy control. I think the thing was that when I listened to everything Chuck taught me, I had NEVER flown a canopy myself and so it was all mostly theory to me. So when he talked about landing patterns or maneuvers under canopy, it was hard for me to picture how to do it because I'd never done ANY of it.

I guess I would have liked more canopy control instruction as I went through AFF (after I'd had a chance to experience a small amount of canopy flight) and my progression towards my A. It could be just me... I am definitely not a natural with the canopy stuff, which is one of the reasons I am going to take a canopy control class in the next month.

Oh and my instructors have always answered any of my questions about canopy stuff, even if they weren't jumping with me that day... but I'm sure I don't always know what to ask!

[PlayDough 0]

My only coaching until recent was AFF lvl 1 ground school. Many I have talked to have shared the same experiences.

Skydiving is an incredible sport with a incredible group of people. Not one person @ Skydive San Diego has turned a nose up to my inquiries. I do see that when the DZ is busy, there is no que to catch a new skydiver and give a pointer or two. If I didn't ask questions, I may not receive input unless I do something stupid to make notice of myself.

Team Evolution has been a great addition to the staff/family @ our DZ. Getting all fun jumpers involved... challenging our skills, while improving our saftey habbits. I'm anxiously awaiting my canopy school ahead with Wyatt.

From much of my reading, many conversations, and my little experiential knowledge, I know how important canopy skills are to my life, and the lives sharing the sky with me. I want to learn all I can to better my skills as an athlete. also to learn how to interact/react with other pilots.

( The fun starts once the canopy is over head )

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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But how is that normally accomplished? Is it part of some student progressions, or do most students work independently with information like Bill's list, then ask for help if/when they need it?

Well, if you read how your student progression is supposed to work (in the SIM), and you are filling out a 4-page A-license proficiency card, then you will know that braked turns, turning using both front and rear risers, braked landings, etc, are all a part of basic skydiving training. You should have accomplished every one of those tasks before you got your A-license. Let me caveat that by saying: anyone who has undergone student training since 1 October 2001 (introduction/implementation of the ISP and the A-card).

If a school isn't training the canopy control portions on the A-card, then you are paying for an entire program, but only getting half the important stuff. There are more than a few schools out there that talk students down on radios all the way through seven levels of AFF, then send them on their merry way. Most of those places never once mention anything about the different modes of flight and how to control your canopy using all inputs. That's a shame, because if your card got signed, they perpetrated a fraud. Each category of skydive on the 4-page A-card is broken down into two parts: freefall and canopy control. As you progress in your training, you are required to do different things under canopy as well as in freefall. What, you didn't know that? What, you never even saw an A-license card? You are not alone. It's very common, and that's too bad. There are some very large/famous DZ's out there with incredibly poor "overall" training and recordkeeping.

Chuck

[Jarcie 0]

OK, just to be fair, I've seen an A license card, and I'm filling one out. Except for accuracy, I've gotten all of the canopy control skills signed off already, and I definitely don't think anyone did it casually.

I've also read most of the student progression information in the SIM (there are a few parts I still need to read or re-read).

There are some things on Bill's list that are not on the A card, and the list seems to be a pretty useful tool.

I was wondering more about the emphasis early-on in training and the methods for teaching. Instructors and coaches can exit with students, stay with them in freefall, and watch them land, but they're not constantly there to observe what the student is doing under canopy.

At my DZ, we've gone through drills on the ground, instructors have watched me from the ground, and they've watched me land. Is that what happens in a canopy control course? I don't know.

This was intended to be a general question. I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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At my DZ, we've gone through drills on the ground, instructors have watched me from the ground, and they've watched me land. Is that what happens in a canopy control course? I don't know

Generally, yes. If you are paying for a course you will generally also do a couple of hop and pops with your instructor where you play "follow the leader" and try different things on the way down from altitude. Your flights are critiqued and all of your landings are videoed.

Also, I responded to everyone, not just your post.

As to "who's watching me do this stuff?", that's (at least at my last DZ) a separate ground instructor, also on a radio.

[jaybo 0]

Jarcie,

I've found it to be my own responsibility to garner as much info as possible on canopy control. Check out Brian Germain if he lectures in your area or pick up some of his literature. Also, Bryan Burke does a great job covering many aspects. Check out link below.
(someone give me a heads up on how to make it clicky please)

http://www.skydiveaz.com/resources/book_canopy.htm