cruzit 0
Recommended Posts
Auryn 0
QuoteI was simply pointing out that even without a reference point or a horizon, one can automatically find stability, once it has been ingrained into one's mind.
Once it is learned, it becomes a reaction that you do without even thinking..like a cat landing on all fours when dropped.
Learn it, and you'll never have to worry about becoming unstable again.
Bill Cole D-41
I see the validity of both sides. AFF backloops are a good idea to demonstrate recovery from an unstable position w/ an AFFI there. However, they are not necessarily vital to survial. I went through a TIAF (Tandem Instructor Assisted Freefall) progression that did not include any backloops or intentional loss of stability manuevers.
I learned how to get stable from instability on my first solo. I exited, saw the plane between my feet, knew that wasn't right, freaked, and got stable just like a cat landing on all fours.
done.
A lot of skydivers went through the same progression I did and I never heard of a problem w/ any of them.
Blue Ones
Bryan
D27808
Tonto 1
To demonstrate loss and recovery of stability, while under the supervision of someone who can intervene if the student gets into difficulty or cannot recover stability.
t
t
It's the year of the Pig.
Ron 7
QuoteI didn't say people are never unstable halfway through the jump, just that they are more likely to be so just after exit. Can you honestly say that you are in more mid-dive funnels than blown exits?
No, but it can happen anywhere.
QuoteYes! have them do an intentionally unstable exit.
And they can do ONE per jump....The can do several attepts at back loops..Most students get to try two. So they can do an unstable exit, and TWO attempts in one 100 dollar jump...your way for them to get 3 unstable situation that have to pay 300.00 bucks.
QuoteThere is no harm in teaching solo skills on $100.00 skydives as long as the student recently won the lottery. If (s)he is like the rest of us, however, (s)he is trying to find the money. Backloops can be taught by a coach far more inexpensively.
And what happens it the person freaks out and is on thier back and starts to spin? (Trust me this does happen) You expect a coach to be able to stop the spin, flip them over, get them stable and handle a possible freaking out student?
Bad idea.
QuoteWhat happens if you task the student to do backloops and they do backloops.
I think this has happenind maybe TWICE in my over 8 years of teaching. I pass them. They passed the level.
QuoteIf you get your student to grab their right leg with their left hand just before exit and hold onto it for five seconds you will be rewarded with a student who had a blast while successfully executing an unstable exit. This is a much better outcome than one in which the student failed to execute a backloop but learned a 'valuable lesson' anyway.
Avoid teaching through hidden agendas.
And like I said you made my 100.00 dollar lesson cost 300.00 for the same effect.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
The111 1
QuoteTo demonstrate loss and recovery of stability, while under the supervision of someone who can intervene if the student gets into difficulty or cannot recover stability.
Above I gave a description of my AFF level 6 where I got "stuck" in a continuous backloop (was flipping repeatedly for about 5000ft). I managed to get stable right around pull altitude, and my instructor swooped in and grabbed me hard as I pulled. On the ground, a little shaken, I said "hey, thanks for helping me stabilize out up there". He said "I didn't do anything, that was all you. There was no way I was coming near you with you flipping like that." This coming from the DZO of DeLand with many many skydives to his name.
So I ask, is it actually possible to approach a very unstable student and save him? Was Bob just fucking with me or was I really on my own? That was 4 years ago and I still remember the conversation perfectly...
www.WingsuitPhotos.com
cruzit 0
QuoteSo I ask, is it actually possible to approach a very unstable student and save him?
The answer is yes. But it can be very hairy for both JM and student. Most stops on a really unstable student are ugly and usually result in one or both being injured in someway.
Once you are on the higher levels, as a rule, most instructors are going to give you every opportunity to fix yourself. The thought process being, at least on my part, is since you are almost ready to self-JM, you should be able to get unstable and correct on your own. The only time I personally will "save" you, is if it appears you, for whatever reason, are unable to pull.
QuoteSo I ask, is it actually possible to approach a very unstable student and save him?
Definitely. I'll try to grab a clip from the recent HALO school program that was on TV. Some excellent shots of instructors stabilizing out of control students that are wearing huge rucksacks.
Check out this video to see a student go completely unstable during a backloop attempt, and get some help from a very brave instructor. (Also includes a tandem drogue caught on the instructors foot and an insanely fast AFF student spin... again, tackled by the instructor. Very impressive.)
Dave
rehmwa 2
QuoteSo I ask, is it actually possible to approach a very unstable student and save him? ...
Some story - Stopping an out of control flat spin isn't too bad, but someone tumbling? acckkk
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
I've only done one backloop and it wasn't until my check-out dive for my A. There was really never any emphasis or talk on doing one before that.
QuoteYour insinuation that those of us who advocate teaching backloops is essentially a method for monetary gain is insulting and without basis of fact.
My insinuation was nothing of the kind. The reference to hidden agendas was for tasking the student with a backloop when the goal is instability.
Quote
QuoteYes! have them do an intentionally unstable exit.
QuoteAnd they can do ONE per jump...
Actually just one for the program usually good. The students who have trouble regaining stability have usually induced it themselves on earlier levels. I use the intentionaly unstable exit only on those who are approaching the end of the program without ever being unstable.QuoteThe can do several attepts at back loops..Most students get to try two. So they can do an unstable exit, and TWO attempts in one 100 dollar jump...your way for them to get 3 unstable situation that have to pay 300.00 bucks.
After their exit task, their freefall task could be one of many things including backloops. I just think that teaching the student to correct instability as its own lesson is better than including it in the when you fail at the backloop part. Why don't you try it sometime? Teach the exit and recovery followed by backloop(s). You may be surprised at how your student does with the whole 'being on your back' thing out of the way.QuoteAnd what happens it the person freaks out and is on thier back and starts to spin?
If they have already successfully dealt with instability this is not likely.
We still offer standard progression where I work (mostly in the winter) and while the problems inherent with it are numerous, students freaking out while trying to do backloops is not that high on the agenda at instructors' meetings.
Good for them. Just because they have successfully completed the skydive doesn't mean they didn't learn a valuable lesson. They were upside down in a body position they have never experienced before and they successfully returned to a stable body position. Success on this dive under controlled conditions sets up the diving exit, where they are very likely to be unstable. If they do become unstable, i.e., ass over teakettle, they understand they can re-achieve stability quickly because they have done it under controlled conditions. Performing a diving, or unstable exit, when they have never experienced less than optimal body position is a recipe for disaster, and IMO, is setting the student up for failure on the skydive.
Your insinuation that those of us who advocate teaching backloops is essentially a method for monetary gain is insulting and without basis of fact.
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites