jumpwally 0 #1 April 14, 2004 Just saw LouDiamonds 20th Tandem annv pics,,,if there was no such thing as tandems, where do you think skydiving would be? and how much do you think a jump ticket would cost? I say it would be dramatic....wallysmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #2 April 14, 2004 You are correct, without tandems, the skydiving scene would be far smaller and far more expensive today. For example, we would have hardly any turbine engines. And - heaven forbid! - I would have to get a real job! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdgregory 0 #3 April 14, 2004 Good Question. I have wondered. AerOhio's Otter takes up 23 on a full load. They charge 21 Washingtons for 14500 ft. 21*23=483 of the dead prezs. Last Saturday we did 6 loads 6*483=2898 bucks. I think there might have been one tandem and a couple of coached jumps. Not sure. Say they made 3200 for the day. Does that cover feul, rent, insurance for the property and plane, salaries, electricity, phone, their lawyer, accountant, water, pens, paper, internet, USPA Group Membership, Gear Repairs, etc.? I am sure this is not an all inclusive list of DZO expenses. Granted Saturday was a slow day. But I often wonder, without tandems and AFF could a DZ survive without charging 50 bucks or more a jump? And then how many jumps would actually go up at that price? The whole supply/demand curve. Where would the equilibrium point be? I'm thinking, thank God for tandems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #4 April 14, 2004 Yes, the economics of a DZ are an interesting subject. I've thought of diving in and working on a comprehensive analysis including statistical analysis to figure price elasticity of demand, financial modeling of the effect of tandem vs. experienced jumpers on planes, instructors, overhead, etc. It’s not a little thing but I’ve done much bigger projects. The problem is getting the data! How many DZ’s will open their books and financial records in total? Not many, if any! On a tangent I thought about building a regression model on incidents. It could explain how the number of jumps, gear, type of flying, wing loading, etc. contribute to incidents. This is actually an easy project but obtaining sufficient data is a problem. So this is what I think about at work all day. No, I’m not hooked on skydiving!"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #5 April 14, 2004 Oh, I forgot something. An very old timer in the business told me one time that experienced jumpers pay for the planes and students pay for the instructors. That’s probably about right."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
namdrib 0 #6 April 14, 2004 Quote - I would have to get a real job! You know, I have heard of people talking about those things, what exactly is that?Unknowing attempting to take out all 4 wheeled vehicles remotely close to the landing area! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #7 April 14, 2004 QuoteQuote - I would have to get a real job! You know, I have heard of people talking about those things, what exactly is that? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Over the years I have tried various "real jobs" but none of them really suited me. As near as I can remember, my job in the Canadian Air Force consisted of drinking coffee and doing crossword puzzles while waiting for spare parts for CF-18 fighter planes. I developed a life-long addiction to caffeine. I tried driving a school bus, but the little bastards gave me an ulcer. I tried a bureacratic job and was okay at shuffling paperwork, but was never good enough at kissing a$$ to keep the job. I tried being a security guard, but could not stand the petty nazis I had to work with. The deli was amusing, but I developed an allegry to sausages. After hanging Christmas lights on a few thousand trees, I concluded that it was a job better done by younger men. etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #8 April 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote - I would have to get a real job! You know, I have heard of people talking about those things, what exactly is that? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Over the years I have tried various "real jobs" but none of them really suited me. As near as I can remember, my job in the Canadian Air Force consisted of drinking coffee and doing crossword puzzles while waiting for spare parts for CF-18 fighter planes. I developed a life-long addiction to caffeine. I tried driving a school bus, but the little bastards gave me an ulcer. I tried a bureacratic job and was okay at shuffling paperwork, but was never good enough at kissing a$$ to keep the job. I tried being a security guard, but could not stand the petty nazis I had to work with. The deli was amusing, but I developed an allegry to sausages. After hanging Christmas lights on a few thousand trees, I concluded that it was a job better done by younger men. LMAO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #9 April 14, 2004 >if there was no such thing as tandems, where do you think skydiving > would be? and how much do you think a jump ticket would cost? I > say it would be dramatic....wally Hmm. I was around before there were many tandems. The Ranch charged $13 to 13,000 feet during the week. They had one of the first Otters, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gerryfuss 0 #10 April 14, 2004 QuoteHmm. I was around before there were many tandems. The Ranch charged $13 to 13,000 feet during the week. They had one of the first Otters, too. This is when exactly? early 70's. What would that $13 then be today I wonder, when a good job only payed probably a buck or two an hour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites headoverheels 291 #11 April 14, 2004 For some aircraft cost comparisons, check out Ray's site at http://www.utilityaircraft.com/costcomparisons.html Put in your own figures, or use theirs. Nothing regarding tandems is in their estimate. At our local DZ, we pay $15 walkup, $13 block, to 13 grand in Beech 90 or Otters. 8000 feet is $10 single ticket. Tandems are $100, Video for tandems is $35, sodas are 50 cents, and Starbuck cold drinks are cheaper than I can buy them at the grocery store. We're kinda in a time warp. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hummusx 0 #12 April 14, 2004 Wow I wanna jump at your dropzone. ____________________________________ It’s like selling a million grills all at the same time…with extended warranties. -Hank Hill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites headoverheels 291 #13 April 14, 2004 Billvon hasn't been jumping that long. Jump prices to 12,500 in 1978 were $8 at Pope Valley (had been $9, but dropped when Dause took over). That would be about like $26-30 today, roughly based on starting engineer salaries and Avgas prices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #14 April 14, 2004 >This is when exactly? early 70's. Nope, around 1990. AFF was becoming more popular, tandems were still pretty rare. The first tandems were done around 1977 or so, and tandem rigs became widely available in the early 80's. I think they started with what we consider "modern" tandems (i.e. drouge with drouge-deployed main) in the mid-80's, after a lot of very hard openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #15 April 14, 2004 The price of a jump ticket would be the same. However, you would not have the proliferation of turbines that we see today. How many students can you get through an 8 hour AFF FJC using two JM for EACH student and how many students can you introduce to the sport through a 1 hour class and a one on one setting? It is way more efficient to use tandem and you will get more people to do tandem (AFF costs 100-150 bucks more to do one jump) than take the AFF FJC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #16 April 14, 2004 Quote>This is when exactly? early 70's. Nope, around 1990. AFF was becoming more popular, tandems were still pretty rare. The first tandems were done around 1977 or so, and tandem rigs became widely available in the early 80's. I think they started with what we consider "modern" tandems (i.e. drouge with drouge-deployed main) in the mid-80's, after a lot of very hard openings. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to Dave Davenport (of FTS) the US Army used some of his Laser 400 canopies for an experimental tandem program circa 1982. Neither Dave nor the USArmy likes to talk about that program. Ted Strong and Bill Booth started test jumping civilian tandems in 1983. The first time I saw a tandem was at the Canadian Nationals, summer of 1984. Yes, the first few tandems were drogue-less, but Ted Strong destroyed too many main canopies at opening time, so he adapted the drogues he was building for Alaska smokejumpers. Bill Booth continued building drogue-less tandems for a few more years, but openings under High-Lifters and PD 360s were never graceful. We were all glad when Relative Workshop introduced drogues in the mid-1980s. While drogues made freefalls more stable and dramatically reduced opening shock, they also spawned a new industry: freefall video. But tandem did not catch on with the masses until decent ZP canopies were introduced in the mid-1990s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crwmike 0 #17 April 14, 2004 QuoteJust saw LouDiamonds 20th Tandem annv pics,,,if there was no such thing as tandems, where do you think skydiving would be? and how much do you think a jump ticket would cost? I say it would be dramatic....wally I don't know. I would have like to have found out, however. You wouldn't have the profit mongers and tandem whores polluting DZ's. We would have more 'clubs' with everyone pitching in to get the work done. Pretty much the only people at the DZ would be the ones who are drawn by the beauty and grace of skydiving. In the late 70's we had a bunch of 180's, some Beech-18's and the occasional DC-3 and Skyvan ...all in all, some damn good skydives. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpwally 0 #18 April 15, 2004 Mike,,i agree with you and i would think somewhere out there is a DZ that doesn't much care for tandems and caters to experienced jumpers,,,maybe not...thanx for your input.smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #19 April 15, 2004 In the late 70's we had a bunch of 180's, some Beech-18's and the occasional DC-3 and Skyvan ...all in all, some damn good skydives. MichaelAnd some damn sloooow rides to altitude. Took all day just to get 3-4 jumps, remember? It was fun but I don't miss it at all. I'll do my tandems and take my turbines anytime. Also remember that instructoers spent most of the day on the ground or doing only hop and pops. Much better now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites genoyamamoto 0 #20 April 15, 2004 Average 40 loads per week over 52 weeks ~ 1million dollars, or 47,840 per year per dollar charged (earned). Profit per head: Profit per year: 1 47,840 2 95,680 3 143,520 4 191,360 5 239,200 6 287,040 7 334,880 8 382,720 9 430,560 10 478,400 11 526,240 12 574,080 13 621,920 14 669,760 15 717,600 16 765,440 17 813,280 18 861,120 19 908,960 20 956,800 21 1,004,640 You can pick the point at which you would (not) consider running a dz. QuoteGood Question. I have wondered. AerOhio's Otter takes up 23 on a full load. They charge 21 Washingtons for 14500 ft. 21*23=483 of the dead prezs. Last Saturday we did 6 loads 6*483=2898 bucks. I think there might have been one tandem and a couple of coached jumps. Not sure. Say they made 3200 for the day. Does that cover feul, rent, insurance for the property and plane, salaries, electricity, phone, their lawyer, accountant, water, pens, paper, internet, USPA Group Membership, Gear Repairs, etc.? I am sure this is not an all inclusive list of DZO expenses. Granted Saturday was a slow day. But I often wonder, without tandems and AFF could a DZ survive without charging 50 bucks or more a jump? And then how many jumps would actually go up at that price? The whole supply/demand curve. Where would the equilibrium point be? I'm thinking, thank God for tandems. Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RoysPlayThing 0 #21 April 15, 2004 Damn Thread Killer! ... _______________________________________________ My mind is like a parachute...it functions only when open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crwmike 0 #22 April 16, 2004 QuoteAnd some damn sloooow rides to altitude. Took all day just to get 3-4 jumps, remember? It was fun but I don't miss it at all. I'll do my tandems and take my turbines anytime. Also remember that instructoers spent most of the day on the ground or doing only hop and pops. Much better now. Yeah, we wasted a shit load of time with students back then didn't we? All that time getting to know people, introducing them around, partying with them ...no damn profit in it. Given a choice of one or the other, I'll take the slow ride. Remember the beginning, Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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billvon 2,400 #9 April 14, 2004 >if there was no such thing as tandems, where do you think skydiving > would be? and how much do you think a jump ticket would cost? I > say it would be dramatic....wally Hmm. I was around before there were many tandems. The Ranch charged $13 to 13,000 feet during the week. They had one of the first Otters, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerryfuss 0 #10 April 14, 2004 QuoteHmm. I was around before there were many tandems. The Ranch charged $13 to 13,000 feet during the week. They had one of the first Otters, too. This is when exactly? early 70's. What would that $13 then be today I wonder, when a good job only payed probably a buck or two an hour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 291 #11 April 14, 2004 For some aircraft cost comparisons, check out Ray's site at http://www.utilityaircraft.com/costcomparisons.html Put in your own figures, or use theirs. Nothing regarding tandems is in their estimate. At our local DZ, we pay $15 walkup, $13 block, to 13 grand in Beech 90 or Otters. 8000 feet is $10 single ticket. Tandems are $100, Video for tandems is $35, sodas are 50 cents, and Starbuck cold drinks are cheaper than I can buy them at the grocery store. We're kinda in a time warp. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hummusx 0 #12 April 14, 2004 Wow I wanna jump at your dropzone. ____________________________________ It’s like selling a million grills all at the same time…with extended warranties. -Hank Hill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 291 #13 April 14, 2004 Billvon hasn't been jumping that long. Jump prices to 12,500 in 1978 were $8 at Pope Valley (had been $9, but dropped when Dause took over). That would be about like $26-30 today, roughly based on starting engineer salaries and Avgas prices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #14 April 14, 2004 >This is when exactly? early 70's. Nope, around 1990. AFF was becoming more popular, tandems were still pretty rare. The first tandems were done around 1977 or so, and tandem rigs became widely available in the early 80's. I think they started with what we consider "modern" tandems (i.e. drouge with drouge-deployed main) in the mid-80's, after a lot of very hard openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #15 April 14, 2004 The price of a jump ticket would be the same. However, you would not have the proliferation of turbines that we see today. How many students can you get through an 8 hour AFF FJC using two JM for EACH student and how many students can you introduce to the sport through a 1 hour class and a one on one setting? It is way more efficient to use tandem and you will get more people to do tandem (AFF costs 100-150 bucks more to do one jump) than take the AFF FJC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #16 April 14, 2004 Quote>This is when exactly? early 70's. Nope, around 1990. AFF was becoming more popular, tandems were still pretty rare. The first tandems were done around 1977 or so, and tandem rigs became widely available in the early 80's. I think they started with what we consider "modern" tandems (i.e. drouge with drouge-deployed main) in the mid-80's, after a lot of very hard openings. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to Dave Davenport (of FTS) the US Army used some of his Laser 400 canopies for an experimental tandem program circa 1982. Neither Dave nor the USArmy likes to talk about that program. Ted Strong and Bill Booth started test jumping civilian tandems in 1983. The first time I saw a tandem was at the Canadian Nationals, summer of 1984. Yes, the first few tandems were drogue-less, but Ted Strong destroyed too many main canopies at opening time, so he adapted the drogues he was building for Alaska smokejumpers. Bill Booth continued building drogue-less tandems for a few more years, but openings under High-Lifters and PD 360s were never graceful. We were all glad when Relative Workshop introduced drogues in the mid-1980s. While drogues made freefalls more stable and dramatically reduced opening shock, they also spawned a new industry: freefall video. But tandem did not catch on with the masses until decent ZP canopies were introduced in the mid-1990s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crwmike 0 #17 April 14, 2004 QuoteJust saw LouDiamonds 20th Tandem annv pics,,,if there was no such thing as tandems, where do you think skydiving would be? and how much do you think a jump ticket would cost? I say it would be dramatic....wally I don't know. I would have like to have found out, however. You wouldn't have the profit mongers and tandem whores polluting DZ's. We would have more 'clubs' with everyone pitching in to get the work done. Pretty much the only people at the DZ would be the ones who are drawn by the beauty and grace of skydiving. In the late 70's we had a bunch of 180's, some Beech-18's and the occasional DC-3 and Skyvan ...all in all, some damn good skydives. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpwally 0 #18 April 15, 2004 Mike,,i agree with you and i would think somewhere out there is a DZ that doesn't much care for tandems and caters to experienced jumpers,,,maybe not...thanx for your input.smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #19 April 15, 2004 In the late 70's we had a bunch of 180's, some Beech-18's and the occasional DC-3 and Skyvan ...all in all, some damn good skydives. MichaelAnd some damn sloooow rides to altitude. Took all day just to get 3-4 jumps, remember? It was fun but I don't miss it at all. I'll do my tandems and take my turbines anytime. Also remember that instructoers spent most of the day on the ground or doing only hop and pops. Much better now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #17 April 14, 2004 QuoteJust saw LouDiamonds 20th Tandem annv pics,,,if there was no such thing as tandems, where do you think skydiving would be? and how much do you think a jump ticket would cost? I say it would be dramatic....wally I don't know. I would have like to have found out, however. You wouldn't have the profit mongers and tandem whores polluting DZ's. We would have more 'clubs' with everyone pitching in to get the work done. Pretty much the only people at the DZ would be the ones who are drawn by the beauty and grace of skydiving. In the late 70's we had a bunch of 180's, some Beech-18's and the occasional DC-3 and Skyvan ...all in all, some damn good skydives. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #18 April 15, 2004 Mike,,i agree with you and i would think somewhere out there is a DZ that doesn't much care for tandems and caters to experienced jumpers,,,maybe not...thanx for your input.smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #19 April 15, 2004 In the late 70's we had a bunch of 180's, some Beech-18's and the occasional DC-3 and Skyvan ...all in all, some damn good skydives. MichaelAnd some damn sloooow rides to altitude. Took all day just to get 3-4 jumps, remember? It was fun but I don't miss it at all. I'll do my tandems and take my turbines anytime. Also remember that instructoers spent most of the day on the ground or doing only hop and pops. Much better now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #20 April 15, 2004 Average 40 loads per week over 52 weeks ~ 1million dollars, or 47,840 per year per dollar charged (earned). Profit per head: Profit per year: 1 47,840 2 95,680 3 143,520 4 191,360 5 239,200 6 287,040 7 334,880 8 382,720 9 430,560 10 478,400 11 526,240 12 574,080 13 621,920 14 669,760 15 717,600 16 765,440 17 813,280 18 861,120 19 908,960 20 956,800 21 1,004,640 You can pick the point at which you would (not) consider running a dz. QuoteGood Question. I have wondered. AerOhio's Otter takes up 23 on a full load. They charge 21 Washingtons for 14500 ft. 21*23=483 of the dead prezs. Last Saturday we did 6 loads 6*483=2898 bucks. I think there might have been one tandem and a couple of coached jumps. Not sure. Say they made 3200 for the day. Does that cover feul, rent, insurance for the property and plane, salaries, electricity, phone, their lawyer, accountant, water, pens, paper, internet, USPA Group Membership, Gear Repairs, etc.? I am sure this is not an all inclusive list of DZO expenses. Granted Saturday was a slow day. But I often wonder, without tandems and AFF could a DZ survive without charging 50 bucks or more a jump? And then how many jumps would actually go up at that price? The whole supply/demand curve. Where would the equilibrium point be? I'm thinking, thank God for tandems. Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoysPlayThing 0 #21 April 15, 2004 Damn Thread Killer! ... _______________________________________________ My mind is like a parachute...it functions only when open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #22 April 16, 2004 QuoteAnd some damn sloooow rides to altitude. Took all day just to get 3-4 jumps, remember? It was fun but I don't miss it at all. I'll do my tandems and take my turbines anytime. Also remember that instructoers spent most of the day on the ground or doing only hop and pops. Much better now. Yeah, we wasted a shit load of time with students back then didn't we? All that time getting to know people, introducing them around, partying with them ...no damn profit in it. Given a choice of one or the other, I'll take the slow ride. Remember the beginning, Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
