For you AFF Students out there...

[DeNReN 0]

Scrummy....You seem to have a reason for this poll....may I ask why?

Being a IAD student, I cant vote...Only I and my rigger will save my life.

Edited to add....After jump 6 and 1st of year check out jumps.

[crzjp20 0]

I am still a student... unfortunatly...but i can tell you that on my first jump had 2 instructors like normal and all. However i had one that i felt really comfortable with, and one that i was nervice to jump with. To this day i have not jumped with her again. However when it come to them pulling for me and all that, well i am a big guy so on my level 3 when they released my fall rate was huge! My 2 instructors were both strugling to keep up with me, no i had no problems, i waved and pulled no problem, and i was totaly stable. But if they would have had to pull for me.... well i think my cyprus would have had to do the job. But hey i am comfortable, confident, and have so mych fun in the air.

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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[Daizey 0]

I am currently midway through aff and I definitely don't believe that if i were to get into trouble my JM would pull for me...I believe that that is 100% my responsibility...Sure the JM is there to help, teach, and guide me, but Im not going to rely on them to save my life...

Also...say I were to get into "trouble." if i were in trouble to the point where i couldn't pull for myself, whos to say my JM is still going to be near me or on my side. I mean if I am in that much trouble, i certainly don't think i could depend on them still being right there with me...course i supose that all depends on the type of trouble i am in.

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I fall very fast, so I knew on every jump that there was a possibility that I would lose one or both JM's. I was taught that as long as I was comfortable with the way things were going I could continue with the skydive.... I never expected a JM to pull for me. It was my responsibility.

While I don't fall fast (quite the opposite actually) Ive always been told that theres a chance i could lose my JM. I too was told I could continue if seperated. That right there shows me that I am not expected to rely on anyone but myself when it comes to pulling. If we were all expected to rely on someone else during aff, then wouldn't the student progression would consist merely of tandems?

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well i think my cyprus would have had to do the job.

I don't believe you should rely on a cypress either. I mean, I believe i have heard of a few instances where it has failed.

*daizey*

[newsstand 0]

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well i think my cyprus would have had to do the job.

You can't rely on a cypress if all else fails either, I've heard of plenty of instances when a cypress doesn't fire...

Could you document a few of these failures? A QUICK search of incidents doesn't show anything specific.

However, I do agree don't depend on anything but yourself.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[Daizey 0]

Using the word plenty was an accident on my part, I meant I had heard of a few...and by that i may even be mistaken...I remember hearing about it, but you're right, after a quick search i couldn't come up with much besides This thread. Guess I've always just been told to not rely on your cypress because it is man made and can malfunction or even fail. Really thought i heard of instances where it had too....Sorry for the confusion..,,

*daizey*

[TypicalFish 0]

Late entry on this thread, but YES, I think he would.

Will I rely on him for it? Absolutely not.

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[lowie 0]

We were taught (Sydney skydiving centre) that if at any time you find yourself without an instructor attached (or very close by) for stages 1 to 3 then pull. At no time in the FJC did the instructor make any mention of being able to rescue you. We took it for granted that they would be there but when I got unstable and was backsliding rapidly from my JM on stage 5 I pulled for myself rather than wait for him to come and fix me up. Your solo in 9 jumps if all goes well and in the last couple of stages you can get isolated easily from your JM. I think you should be taking responsibilty for your dives from day 1.
cheers

Mike

[newsstand 0]

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Using the word plenty was an accident on my part, I meant I had heard of a few... Guess I've always just been told to not rely on your cypress because it is man made and can malfunction or even fail....

No problem and I totally agree on not depending on it.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[crzjp20 0]

yeah i think i need to clearfy what i was saying about the cyprus... its called sarcasism.... it was a joke, i never rely on anything but myself i the air. However i do feel comfortable and that my jump masters would help me if i needed it.

anyways, just wanted to clear that up

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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[timbarrett 0]

I went thru early AFF levels also at Sydney Skydiving and it was pretty clear that, their best efforts notwithstanding, it was the training provided by the instructors that would save me...so they told us to pay attention and commit to the learning.
On level 3, i 'got away' from my JM...i had been stable for a few seconds and then, spooked by entering some light cloud ( for the first time) just before wave off height, I went unstable, rolled over and fell away rapidly from the JM. I remember looking back up at his rather surprised face and thinking " I had better sort this one out myself!"...the point being I had been taught how to barrel-roll and i did so and pulled immediately. Not clever or elegant ( i have hidden the video of my disappearing downward from my SO) but a good reminder that ultimately it is the training not the JM that you must depend on. One episode like that and you know the answer to the question...
Next stop, some wind tunnel time to make sure i don't do that again....
Tim

"Work hard, play hard and don't whinge"

[Nightingale 0]

I'm still on student status (but only til saturday, provided the weather's good! three more jumps!)

I know my instructors would do EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER, within reason, to try to pull for me if for some reason I could not pull for myself. I hope they would not compromise their own safety to do so, because ultimately the safety of my own life lies with me.

I know for a fact that they HAVE pulled for me. I couldn't find the hackey on my AFF 1, and Shelly pulled for me after I grabbed her altimeter a couple of times instead of the hackey. Did I rely on her to pull? NO. I'd have made one more grab at it, and then gone for the reserve, like I'd been taught.


Under normal circumstances, will a JM pull a student having problems? Yes, unless something really weird happens.

Under problem circumstances, they will do their best, but again, the life of the skydiver is in his or her own hands.

[Scrumpot 1]

Thanks Laurie, for your perspective. Follow-up question (other than noting: Sheesh, you sure have been an AFF Student for one heck of a long time now! )... At any time during your AFF training though, were you told that if you got into "trouble", that your AFF JM's were there to pull for you? Or did you even think/consider otherwise somehow or get the impression in any way that your JM's would pull for you?

This is the recent phenomenon (mindset) that I am trying, in part, with this poll to get to the root of.

I'm now "back" after having been away from these boards now for a couple of days. Reading through all these now one at a time, as I go. Lot's of PM's were awaiting me, plus, as it appears, a reasonable amount of participation. So, THANK YOU everybody!

I'll post up some of my comments/follow-up (depending whether it may be redundant already in here or not) as, and if it is looks needed. But again, THANK YOU EVERYBODY, for your participation!!

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Scrumpot 1]

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Scrummy....You seem to have a reason for this poll....may I ask why?

Very observant, grasshopper. Hopefully all will be made clear in good time.

In the meantime, thank you for your participation!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Scrumpot 1]

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Late entry on this thread, but YES, I think he would.

And what is it that has made you even think he/she would? Is this something that you were told was a part of your JM's required skillset? Or perhaps (as others have intimated) you just "heard some stories"? At the AFF level, presumably having only 1-2 (or as many as 8-15) jumps only under your belt, obviously by definition makes one a complete and total neophyte. So what I am trying to determine (again in part) is, where would you have come up with that impression? "Counting on it" or not.

Thank you for your reply, and input!
Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Scrumpot 1]

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I went unstable, rolled over and fell away rapidly from the JM. I remember looking back up at his rather surprised face and thinking....

This is GREAT feedback Tim, and nothing to be embarrassed about at all! This, is indeed just another part of precisely what it is I am looking for here!!

You get away from your JM or JM's, you roll over on your back & you see them there now above you, looking down at you. Let's say they are even looking like they are trying to dive down to get to you. ...What are you thinking??

Great input, thank you! How about a few of you who have replied that yes, you feel (or even just "think") that yes, their JM will/would pull for them; ...honestly now, might be thinking in this very position?? Any others of you been there?

Thank you again Tim, for providing this insight!
Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[flyinghonu 0]

Just finished my first AFF yesterday - passed and had a stand up landing (without a working radio I must add ).

This is a hard question because while I feel my safety is a very big concern for my JMs, I truely believe that everyone is responsible for their own safety. Thus, I don't think my JMs (and many others) would allow a student to go up who has the mentality that "if I can't do it, no biggie - the JM will do it for me."

I think that most know (including students) that there is always the possiblity of a situation wherein someone just can't help you if you get in "trouble" (for their own safety reasons) and therefore, ultimately you should never rely upon someone else.

"Excuse me while I kiss the sky..." - Jimi Hendrix

[samhussey 0]

When I was doing AFF, one of the other guys there froze up on his level 1 and the instructor had to pull for him. Its not a case of not worrying about pulling just because you've got someone who'll do it for you (and hey, even if they don't, theres always the CYPRES!), its just an extra backup, and at the time (about a year ago) it definitely made me feel a lot happier!

[dzdiva 7]

I graduated AFF a long time ago, but I'm still a student. Weather and money have kept me from the elusive "A". It's so long in between jumps for me that one of the instructors usually comes with me to play!

Now to your question about them pulling for me. They never said they would or wouldn't. I never had it in my mind that they would. Especially once they started letting go. I know that through hand signals, they would try to help me do what I was supposed to if I had a problem. As I stated before, I fall very fast, so I knew that there was a good chance of losing one or both. Before each jump I was told that it was my responsibility to save my life. Hope that answers your question.

"It's not just a daydream if you choose to make it your life..."

[cvfd1399 0]

I know they can b/c she did. Our atls were off mine showed about 5500 and hers 4500 and I was going for R/C and took longer than necessary so she pulled as a student safety margin. All prcp's were dead on just a slight mistake on pull time. On jump 2 I pulled myself.

[skyboy26 0]

I trust my JM 1000% but I never relied on them to pull for me.Yes,the JM is there to teach you and ultimately to save your life,IF possible.
Nobody during my instruction told me that I should rely on my JM "if I get into trouble" and I never asked myself that question.
In the last levels of my AFF I was required to do a tracking for 3-8 sec. at the end of the freefall program - that would create(or not)The key phrase is not "if I get into trouble" it should be "my JM will pull for me if necessary".I believe that every single one of us signed something that stated "I am responsible for my own life" . If you still think that your JM should pull for you,then something got wrong in the process of you becoming a skydiver...
Just my 0.2
Blue ones

[WILDBILLAQR 0]

I am not an instructor, so PLEASE talk to your instructors to verify this information! Every instructor I know will do everything in there power to pull for you if they need to. If you go below there hard deck( I believe its 2000ft) YOU are on your own!

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"Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!"
AQR#3,CWR#49

[bshl 0]

When I was a student I watched a bunch of video clips and saw students doing really dumb things. It may (or may not) sound odd but it helped me to critique what they did. By knowing what they did wrong, I gained knowledge and had at least an idea of what to do if it happened to me. I can imagine someone completely losing it and thrashing around the sky though, in an out of control freefall. I think my JMs would have tried all they could to get to me but if my flailing around prevented a successful hit and pull, I'd bite it. Not their fault - mine. By my way of thinking, it doesn't matter how good a JM is, they can't guarantee success.

Here's a nickel. May I have $0.03 change?

Blue skies and happy landings!

[Casurf1978 0]

Currently on aff 7 doing level 8 this coming weekend. I trust my jms 110%, but the bottom line is I'm responsible for my own safety. I know if I get in trouble they would do their best to help me out, but bottom line I'm the one responsible to pull and for my safety. I'm the one who made the decision to take up a sport which involves jumping out of a perfectly good airplane (hopefully most of the time), so I better be 110% responsible for my safety. Also approacing the end of AFF and going over stuff that not only concerns my safety, but the safety of others, e.g., timing of jumpers out of the plane with regards to upper winds, not flying into others holding area, always looking before turning, etc.

During my level 7 doing the back flip I did a 1.5 and ended up on my back. I didn't freak out nor did I think 'ok stay like a turtle on its back and let the JM help you out.' Basically I just did what they taught me: arch. Rest of the dive went great, except for tracking. Also during my release level I fell a little faster than expected. Sorry about that Mark and Ed

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[Shark 0]

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Also during my release level I fell a little faster than expected. Sorry about that Mark and Ed

Yep, me and Cajones did wear some baggy stuff. I think he was more surprised than I as since I jumped with you before. (Notice that I did not give you an "arch" signal??)

[todayjump 0]

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As someone who has recently finished AFF, I feel very strongly that my coach/JM would pull for me if needed. If you do not have 100% faith in your coach, you have no business jumping with them. I beleive 100% that all my coaches would have put their own life at risk to insure my safety if needed. This belief is the reason I was able to step out of the plane on that first jump.

My instructor told me that he wouldn't go in for me.
In fact he said if I saw him pull - i should pull too.
It would mean we were low.

He never even said anything about pulling 'for me'.

Is that common? I never heard of it before.